Old Bugs

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T. J. Brumfield T. J. Brumfield
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Old Bugs

There were several old, often commented on, and often requested bug fixes
and features that didn't receive much attention or weren't resolved with OOo
over the years.

For those who may not be aware of the reasons for the shift/fork, or for
those who don't care about politics with software, resolving some of these
old bugs might be a reason for users to switch over to LibreOffice.

For instance, the bug/feature request with the most votes for OOo is a SVG
import filter. go-oo implemented that feature. I assume LibreOffice will
include that patch.

Here is an eight year old bug/feature request with over 300 votes.

http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3959

And while it seems like that bug involves quite a bit of work, it also reads
like necessary refactoring that has been started, but not finished.

In the end, I suppose my question is this. Is it a worthwhile goal for
LibreOffice to pursue some of these lingering issues with tons of votes?
Should they try to create the features that the community obviously wants
that OOo is not providing?

-- T. J. Brumfield
"I'm questioning my education
Rewind and what does it show?
Could be, the truth it becomes you
I'm a seed, wondering why it grows"
-- Pearl Jam, Education

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Frank Esposito Frank Esposito
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Re: Old Bugs

> For instance, the bug/feature request with the most votes for OOo is a SVG
> import filter. go-oo implemented that feature. I assume LibreOffice will
> include that patch.
>
>
LO included Go-oo patches, was this included?

If not, where can i vote for this, I have been waiting for this for a long
time!

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Peter Rodwell Peter Rodwell
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by T. J. Brumfield
I have only today joined this discussion so I don't know whether this has
already been discussed or not.

There are two reasons why I have just paid money to upgrade to Office 2010
instead of switching to OO/LO:

1. Complete file compatibility. I frequently handle documents with very complex
formatting. These come from my clients, all of whom use MS Office. I
translate and edit the documents and return them. They *must* retain 100% of
the original formatting. So far this has not been the case with Oo.

2. Search and replace. I work with large documents, often 400+ pages. As I'm
translating, I usually come across a word or phrase that I know will be repeated
throughout the document so I search and replace it to avoid having to type it
continuously. I do this *dozens* of times a day. MS Word leaves me where
I was when I did the S/R so that I can continue working. Oo leaves me at the
point of the last replace so I have to manually go back to where I was. I know
of many people for whom this is a dealbreaker -- they won't move to Oo/LO
until this is fixed.

Just my €0.02 worth.

Peter.




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Robert Parker Robert Parker
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Re: Old Bugs

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Peter Rodwell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have only today joined this discussion so I don't know whether this has
> already been discussed or not.
>
> There are two reasons why I have just paid money to upgrade to Office 2010
> instead of switching to OO/LO:

Did Microsoft pay you to promote their agenda here?

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Peter Rodwell Peter Rodwell
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Re: Old Bugs

If this stupid comment is typical of this forum, then I'm out
of here.

P.


On 02/11/2010 16:53, Robert Parker wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Peter Rodwell<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> I have only today joined this discussion so I don't know whether this has
>> already been discussed or not.
>>
>> There are two reasons why I have just paid money to upgrade to Office 2010
>> instead of switching to OO/LO:
>
> Did Microsoft pay you to promote their agenda here?
>

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Frank Esposito Frank Esposito
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Peter Rodwell
On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Peter Rodwell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have only today joined this discussion so I don't know whether this has
> already been discussed or not.
>
> There are two reasons why I have just paid money to upgrade to Office 2010
> instead of switching to OO/LO:
>
> 1. Complete file compatibility. I frequently handle documents with very
> complex
> formatting. These come from my clients, all of whom use MS Office. I
> translate and edit the documents and return them. They *must* retain 100%
> of
> the original formatting. So far this has not been the case with Oo.
>
>
>
The point of the MSO-to-ODF and ODF-to-MSO converters not working 100% and
being a deal-breaker has been raised several times already. But I am not
sure as to what is being done as far as development. I think the devs are
just trying to clean up the existing code, work in long awaited patches and
stabilize for the 3.3 release right now.

But for the future, if LO is going to battle for market share with MSO,
(which the world currently uses now), the converters will have to be fixed.
There are two sides, Side one is that Microsoft does not follow standards
and ODF does so we should just make LO work to standards. Side two is we
should play Microsoft's game until we take their game away from them.

I see two priorities for long-term growth:
File compatibility should be a priority, in the very least opening and
saving MSO files with full compatibility

ODF adoption should also be a priority, the more LO can get the world to use
ODF instead of Microsft, the more people will use Libre/Open Office and the
more likely the chance Microsoft will have to fix their non-standards
compliant, broken file format.

just my thoughts....

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Frank Esposito Frank Esposito
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Peter Rodwell
No it is not typical, but every now and then you do get this kind of
message.

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Peter Rodwell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If this stupid comment is typical of this forum, then I'm out
> of here.
>
> P.
>
>
>
> On 02/11/2010 16:53, Robert Parker wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Peter Rodwell<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>
>>> I have only today joined this discussion so I don't know whether this has
>>> already been discussed or not.
>>>
>>> There are two reasons why I have just paid money to upgrade to Office
>>> 2010
>>> instead of switching to OO/LO:
>>>
>>
>> Did Microsoft pay you to promote their agenda here?
>>
>>
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>

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Robert Parker Robert Parker
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Peter Rodwell
On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Peter Rodwell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If this stupid comment is typical of this forum, then I'm out
> of here.

I don't think we need Microsoft shills anyway.

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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by T. J. Brumfield
Hi TJ,

T. J. Brumfield wrote (02-11-10 16:28)
> There were several old, often commented on, and often requested bug fixes
> and features that didn't receive much attention or weren't resolved with OOo
> over the years.

That is true. Others were fixed though, and also features were added.

> For those who may not be aware of the reasons for the shift/fork, or for
> those who don't care about politics with software, resolving some of these
> old bugs might be a reason for users to switch over to LibreOffice.

Indeed. But at least for a part of the long standing issues, a/the
reason is that fixing takes considerable amount of time. So IMO we must
be modest with expectations, at least on short term.

> For instance, the bug/feature request with the most votes for OOo is a SVG
> import filter. go-oo implemented that feature. I assume LibreOffice will
> include that patch.

Interesting topic. In the mean time there also has been implemented an
SVG feature for OOo. I have no real idea about merites of both, so that
has to been investigated by developers.

> Here is an eight year old bug/feature request with over 300 votes.
>
> http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3959
>
> And while it seems like that bug involves quite a bit of work, it also reads
> like necessary refactoring that has been started, but not finished.

[ I always have difficulty to understand the need for this feature.
Especially since in LibreOffice it is possible to (un)fold headings
individually in the Navigator, and all kind of manipulations are
possible - but oh, let me not discuss the individual features here. ]

> In the end, I suppose my question is this. Is it a worthwhile goal for
> LibreOffice to pursue some of these lingering issues with tons of votes?
> Should they try to create the features that the community obviously wants
> that OOo is not providing?

IMO that is very true.
Since a goal for LibreOffice is attracting more developers, more people
that can step in easily to work on it (which already works (1, 2) )
there will be more people that can pick up those issues, or at least a
part of it.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Cor

1) http://cedric.bosdonnat.free.fr/wordpress/?p=734
2) http://libreoffice.org/credits.html

>
> -- T. J. Brumfield
> "I'm questioning my education
> Rewind and what does it show?
> Could be, the truth it becomes you
> I'm a seed, wondering why it grows"
> -- Pearl Jam, Education
>


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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Peter Rodwell
Hi Peter,

Peter Rodwell wrote (02-11-10 16:48)

> I have only today joined this discussion so I don't know whether this has
> already been discussed or not.
>
> There are two reasons why I have just paid money to upgrade to Office 2010
> instead of switching to OO/LO:
>
> 1. Complete file compatibility. I frequently handle documents with very
> complex  formatting. These come from my clients, all of whom use
> MS Office. I  translate and edit the documents and return them.
> They *must* retain 100% of  the original formatting.
> So far this has not been the case with Oo.

That is true. But let me start to say that 100% correct formatting is
also not provided when using MsO with MsO. We all know those examples.
But still, in more complex documents, features when exchanging with
OOo/LibO will count more. So I can understand your situation.
Obviously there are ways to ease the pain, but still it will ask extra
attention.

> 2. Search and replace. I work with large documents, often 400+ pages. As
> I'm  translating, I usually come across a word or phrase that I
> know will be  repeated throughout the document so I search and replace
> it to avoid having to type it  continuously. I do this *dozens*
> of times a day. MS Word leaves me where  I was when I did the S/R so
> that I can continue working. Oo leaves me at the  point of the last replace
> so I have to manually go back to where I was.
> I know  of many people for whom this is a dealbreaker
>  -- they won't move to Oo/LO until this is fixed.

OK, that is easy to handle with a trick as user, but possibly also an
relative easy fix (1)?

Kind regards,
Cor

1) http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Easy_Hacks

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Peter Rodwell Peter Rodwell
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Re: Old Bugs

Hi Cor:

>> 2. Search and replace. I work with large documents, often 400+ pages.

[snip]

> OK, that is easy to handle with a trick as user, but possibly also an relative easy fix (1)?

As I said, when you have to do this constantly, dozens of times a day, it does
become a real issue.

I would have thought it quite simple to save the current position, do the search
and replace then return to the previously-saved position. After all, if MS can do
it then it can't be very difficult. :)

P.


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Robert Derman Robert Derman
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by T. J. Brumfield
T. J. Brumfield wrote:

> There were several old, often commented on, and often requested bug fixes
> and features that didn't receive much attention or weren't resolved with OOo
> over the years.
>
> For those who may not be aware of the reasons for the shift/fork, or for
> those who don't care about politics with software, resolving some of these
> old bugs might be a reason for users to switch over to LibreOffice.
>
> For instance, the bug/feature request with the most votes for OOo is a SVG
> import filter. go-oo implemented that feature. I assume LibreOffice will
> include that patch.
>
> Here is an eight year old bug/feature request with over 300 votes.
>
> http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3959
>
> And while it seems like that bug involves quite a bit of work, it also reads
> like necessary refactoring that has been started, but not finished.
>
> In the end, I suppose my question is this. Is it a worthwhile goal for
> LibreOffice to pursue some of these lingering issues with tons of votes?
> Should they try to create the features that the community obviously wants
> that OOo is not providing?
I would have to say so, it would of course be wise to take a close look
at each.  I suppose some might concern things like compatability with
some other software program that has itself become obsolete in the
meantime.  But any that concern internal faults within OOo/LO should
certainly be addressed.  There is also the matter of feature
enhancements, performance upgrades, stability improvements, which might
not have been given a high priority by Sun/Oracle which would now merit
another look.

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Peter Rodwell
Le 2010-11-02 11:48, Peter Rodwell a écrit :

> I have only today joined this discussion so I don't know whether this has
> already been discussed or not.
>
> There are two reasons why I have just paid money to upgrade to Office 2010
> instead of switching to OO/LO:
>
> 1. Complete file compatibility. I frequently handle documents with very
> complex
> formatting. These come from my clients, all of whom use MS Office. I
> translate and edit the documents and return them. They *must* retain
> 100% of
> the original formatting. So far this has not been the case with Oo.
>
> 2. Search and replace. I work with large documents, often 400+ pages. As
> I'm
> translating, I usually come across a word or phrase that I know will be
> repeated
> throughout the document so I search and replace it to avoid having to
> type it
> continuously. I do this *dozens* of times a day. MS Word leaves me where
> I was when I did the S/R so that I can continue working. Oo leaves me at
> the
> point of the last replace so I have to manually go back to where I was.
> I know
> of many people for whom this is a dealbreaker -- they won't move to Oo/LO
> until this is fixed.
>
> Just my €0.02 worth.
>
> Peter.
>

Hi Peter:

As in all public mailists, just ignore the negative comments. Robert
does not speak for people who are interested in fixing problems or
concerns of users.

Just ignore him.

Marc



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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Robert Parker
Le 2010-11-02 11:53, Robert Parker a écrit :
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Peter Rodwell<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> I have only today joined this discussion so I don't know whether this has
>> already been discussed or not.
>>
>> There are two reasons why I have just paid money to upgrade to Office 2010
>> instead of switching to OO/LO:
>
> Did Microsoft pay you to promote their agenda here?
>

Not appreciated. Please be helpful in your response. If not, then please
do not post these comments. They are unnecessary.

Marc


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Robert Derman Robert Derman
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Peter Rodwell
Peter Rodwell wrote:

> I have only today joined this discussion so I don't know whether this has
> already been discussed or not.
>
> There are two reasons why I have just paid money to upgrade to Office
> 2010
> instead of switching to OO/LO:
>
> 1. Complete file compatibility. I frequently handle documents with
> very complex
> formatting. These come from my clients, all of whom use MS Office. I
> translate and edit the documents and return them. They *must* retain
> 100% of
> the original formatting. So far this has not been the case with Oo.
>
> 2. Search and replace. I work with large documents, often 400+ pages.
> As I'm
> translating, I usually come across a word or phrase that I know will
> be repeated
> throughout the document so I search and replace it to avoid having to
> type it
> continuously. I do this *dozens* of times a day. MS Word leaves me where
> I was when I did the S/R so that I can continue working. Oo leaves me
> at the
> point of the last replace so I have to manually go back to where I
> was. I know
> of many people for whom this is a dealbreaker -- they won't move to Oo/LO
> until this is fixed.
>
> Just my €0.02 worth.
>
> Peter.
This needs to be fixed/changed also with the spell checker.  it always
leaves the cursor at the beginning of the last sentence where any word
was corrected, instead the cursor should be left where it was before the
spell check was run.

On a separate subject, to Peter above, I can see where your profession
certainly justifies the expenditure for MS Office, I would hope however
that you at least downloaded and installed OOo/LO in addition, since it
costs little or nothing and might at times prove useful, for instance
opening some MS Office files where Office itself fails to be able to
open them.  (This does happen).

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Peter Rodwell
Le 2010-11-02 11:48, Peter Rodwell a écrit :

> I have only today joined this discussion so I don't know whether this has
> already been discussed or not.
>
> There are two reasons why I have just paid money to upgrade to Office 2010
> instead of switching to OO/LO:
>
> 1. Complete file compatibility. I frequently handle documents with very
> complex
> formatting. These come from my clients, all of whom use MS Office. I
> translate and edit the documents and return them. They *must* retain
> 100% of
> the original formatting. So far this has not been the case with Oo.
>
> 2. Search and replace. I work with large documents, often 400+ pages. As
> I'm
> translating, I usually come across a word or phrase that I know will be
> repeated
> throughout the document so I search and replace it to avoid having to
> type it
> continuously. I do this *dozens* of times a day. MS Word leaves me where
> I was when I did the S/R so that I can continue working. Oo leaves me at
> the
> point of the last replace so I have to manually go back to where I was.
> I know
> of many people for whom this is a dealbreaker -- they won't move to Oo/LO
> until this is fixed.
>
> Just my €0.02 worth.
>
> Peter.
>

Hi Peter:

Nice of you to even come back to the mailist to help out. As this is a
community we all share in helping out with making the distro better.

We would need an example of an incompatible file for us to see and
examine. Could you provide us with an example?

Thanks for the note on search and replace. I imagine that documentation
team members would have run into this problem. Maybe someone could chime
in on this one? If not, could you, Pete, please check to see if the
latest LibO Beta2 still has this problem. If so, maybe we could have a
dev look into it for a fix or at least move it up a bit on their list of
bugs for repairs.

Thanks for your input. We welcome any criticism or bug contributions.

Marc



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Peter Rodwell Peter Rodwell
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by marcpare4
Hi Marc:

> As in all public mailists, just ignore the negative comments. Robert does not speak for people who are interested in
> fixing problems or concerns of users.

Thanks! I've been around mail lists long enough to recognise the type.

> Just ignore him.

Which is exactly what I plan to do.

Peter.

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Frank Esposito
Le 2010-11-02 12:05, Frank Esposito a écrit :

> The point of the MSO-to-ODF and ODF-to-MSO converters not working 100% and
> being a deal-breaker has been raised several times already. But I am not
> sure as to what is being done as far as development. I think the devs are
> just trying to clean up the existing code, work in long awaited patches and
> stabilize for the 3.3 release right now.
>
> But for the future, if LO is going to battle for market share with MSO,
> (which the world currently uses now), the converters will have to be fixed.
> There are two sides, Side one is that Microsoft does not follow standards
> and ODF does so we should just make LO work to standards. Side two is we
> should play Microsoft's game until we take their game away from them.
>
> I see two priorities for long-term growth:
> File compatibility should be a priority, in the very least opening and
> saving MSO files with full compatibility
>
> ODF adoption should also be a priority, the more LO can get the world to use
> ODF instead of Microsft, the more people will use Libre/Open Office and the
> more likely the chance Microsoft will have to fix their non-standards
> compliant, broken file format.
>
> just my thoughts....
>

Good points Frank and we also have to consider that Italo, our marketing
guru, now says that in some European countries, OOo/LigO commands 20%
market share and that ODF adoption is on the rise and is quite established.

The lack of ODF adoption in N.Amer. needs to be addressed by all groups
employing ODF standards. We all need to promote its use where ever it
goes, even down to the single player such as Peter.

And yes, MSO format conversions are not 100% and where there are power
users like Peter, it may be difficult to rationalize using LibO when his
customers are unwilling to adopt an ODF format which would simply work.
There is always the option for Peter to propose a change in office suite
to his clients and suggest that a free migration to LibO would save them
quite a bit in expenditures and would still provide them with the same
functionality as MSO but using the ODF formats instead.

In my opinion, I imagine the devs are trying as best they can to gain
100% file compatibility but it is all of MSO's interests to not let it
gain such compatibility. Cat and mouse game.

Marc


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Peter Rodwell Peter Rodwell
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by marcpare4
Hi Marc:

> We would need an example of an incompatible file for us to see and examine. Could you provide us with an example?

I can't supply any of the files since they are the property of my clients and I'm bound by some very strict
non-disclosure agreements (they have the right to tear my balls off and sell my wife into slavery, or wording to that
effect). If I can find time I'll try and duplicate it, but I'm really busy right now. It was nothing major, something
involving graphics within tables, if I remember rightly.

> Maybe someone could chime in on this one? If not, could you, Pete, please check to see if the latest LibO Beta2 still
> has this problem. If so, maybe we could have a dev look into it for a fix or at least move it up a bit on their list of
> bugs for repairs.

I'm reluctant to download the beta since the Web site says it will overwrite my existing Oo and I don't have an
available spare machine at the moment. I'll see if I can free up one and try it.

Peter.


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Cor Nouws
Le 2010-11-02 12:42, Cor Nouws a écrit :

>> 2. Search and replace. I work with large documents, often 400+ pages. As
>> I'm translating, I usually come across a word or phrase that I
>> know will be repeated throughout the document so I search and replace
>> it to avoid having to type it continuously. I do this *dozens*
>> of times a day. MS Word leaves me where I was when I did the S/R so
>> that I can continue working. Oo leaves me at the point of the last
>> replace
>> so I have to manually go back to where I was.
>> I know of many people for whom this is a dealbreaker
>> -- they won't move to Oo/LO until this is fixed.
>
> OK, that is easy to handle with a trick as user, but possibly also an
> relative easy fix (1)?
>
> Kind regards,
> Cor
>
> 1) http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Easy_Hacks
>

Hi Cor.

If there is a known trick fix to this, I wonder why is there not a
permanent fix for it in the actual code?

Marc


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