Old Bugs

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Old Bugs

Le 2010-11-02 13:57, Robert Derman a écrit :

> Peter Rodwell wrote:
>> I have only today joined this discussion so I don't know whether this has
>> already been discussed or not.
>>
>> There are two reasons why I have just paid money to upgrade to Office
>> 2010
>> instead of switching to OO/LO:
>>
>> 1. Complete file compatibility. I frequently handle documents with
>> very complex
>> formatting. These come from my clients, all of whom use MS Office. I
>> translate and edit the documents and return them. They *must* retain
>> 100% of
>> the original formatting. So far this has not been the case with Oo.
>>
>> 2. Search and replace. I work with large documents, often 400+ pages.
>> As I'm
>> translating, I usually come across a word or phrase that I know will
>> be repeated
>> throughout the document so I search and replace it to avoid having to
>> type it
>> continuously. I do this *dozens* of times a day. MS Word leaves me where
>> I was when I did the S/R so that I can continue working. Oo leaves me
>> at the
>> point of the last replace so I have to manually go back to where I
>> was. I know
>> of many people for whom this is a dealbreaker -- they won't move to Oo/LO
>> until this is fixed.
>>
>> Just my €0.02 worth.
>>
>> Peter.
> This needs to be fixed/changed also with the spell checker. it always
> leaves the cursor at the beginning of the last sentence where any word
> was corrected, instead the cursor should be left where it was before the
> spell check was run.
>

Thanks for the note Robert. Are the devs aware that these two problems
match? It seems like such a trivial problem, but I can see, even in my
profession, as a teacher, that it would be quite annoying to lose your
place in a larger document. Not to mention an academic losing his place
in a thesis or research project etc.

Marc


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Peter Rodwell Peter Rodwell
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Robert Derman
Quoting Robert Derman:

> On a separate subject, to Peter above, I can see where your profession certainly justifies the expenditure for MS
> Office, I would hope however that you at least downloaded and installed OOo/LO in addition, since it costs little or
> nothing and might at times prove useful, for instance opening some MS Office files where Office itself fails to be able
> to open them. (This does happen).

I've been downloading version after version of Oo for years (current one is 3.2.1) and it has been getting progressively
more MS file compatible. Yes, Office does sometimes fail at opening Office files, although in my experience this seems
to happen when one of my clients does something strange at saving time or includes graphics prepared with some weirdo
technical drawing program that nobody's ever heard of. Certainly there have been occasions when I've used Oo to open
such a file and save it, after which Office has had no problem with it.

P.


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Peter Rodwell
Le 2010-11-02 14:17, Peter Rodwell a écrit :

> Hi Marc:
>
>> We would need an example of an incompatible file for us to see and
>> examine. Could you provide us with an example?
>
> I can't supply any of the files since they are the property of my
> clients and I'm bound by some very strict non-disclosure agreements
> (they have the right to tear my balls off and sell my wife into slavery,
> or wording to that effect). If I can find time I'll try and duplicate
> it, but I'm really busy right now. It was nothing major, something
> involving graphics within tables, if I remember rightly.
>

Thanks for the reply and offer to send in a file when you have time. It
would be nice just to have a look at it, even if the import is unfixable
at this time.

>> Maybe someone could chime in on this one? If not, could you, Pete,
>> please check to see if the latest LibO Beta2 still
>> has this problem. If so, maybe we could have a dev look into it for a
>> fix or at least move it up a bit on their list of
>> bugs for repairs.
>
> I'm reluctant to download the beta since the Web site says it will
> overwrite my existing Oo and I don't have an available spare machine at
> the moment. I'll see if I can free up one and try it.
>
> Peter.
>
>

I am not sure if this is still the case. Maybe someone else can comment
on this? I thought it was fixed in Beta2.

Marc


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Ernst W. Winter Ernst W. Winter
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by marcpare4
On Tue, 02 Nov 2010, Marc Par wrote:

[snip shortened stuff]

> Good points Frank and we also have to consider that Italo, our
> marketing guru, now says that in some European countries, OOo/LigO
> commands 20% market share and that ODF adoption is on the rise and
> is quite established.
>
Well I think it is hogher than that or een twice as much with 00o as
I can assure you here in Germany many local AUthorities are using it
already, even that they don't often put it in the open.

One example was when the city of Munich changed from M$ to Linux in
terms of OS, then Balmer rushed to save it and offfered some millions
less in licensing fees, of course with the treat that there are still
some patents that M$ has on it all that garbage. But in the end they
still changed to Linusx and that was some thousend machines.

Yes, you should look more into Europe with it as even the EU is using
as standard OOo and supportin it.

I'm only a "enduser" and use FreeBSD, hendce I'm interested when it
will appear in the ports collection there.

I don't use OOo much, mainly for cconversio of M$ *doc if I get them.

> The lack of ODF adoption in N.Amer. needs to be addressed by all
> groups employing ODF standards. We all need to promote its use
> where ever it goes, even down to the single player such as Peter.
>
Undestandable, but I guess that Europe would be a better chance.

> And yes, MSO format conversions are not 100% and where there are
> power users like Peter, it may be difficult to rationalize using
> LibO when his customers are unwilling to adopt an ODF format which
> would simply work.

Well I have often recieved these days more ODF formats then anything
else as even many friends use it and also at their workplace.

Ernst

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Peter Rodwell Peter Rodwell
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by marcpare4
Quoting Marc Paré:

> And yes, MSO format conversions are not 100% and where there are power users like Peter, it may be difficult to
> rationalize using LibO when his customers are unwilling to adopt an ODF format which would simply work. There is always
> the option for Peter to propose a change in office suite to his clients and suggest that a free migration to LibO would
> save them quite a bit in expenditures and would still provide them with the same functionality as MSO but using the ODF
> formats instead.

My clients are mostly major corporations who don't tend to welcome IT strategy suggestions from their
suppliers! Sure, they're aware of OO and open source in general but they're not planning to change anytime soon. This is
not because they've been brainwashed by MS; it's mostly because they can't afford (financially and timewise) the risk of
having to re-train thousands of users with the productivity drop that this would involve.

P.



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Frank Esposito Frank Esposito
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Re: Old Bugs

> mostly because they can't afford (financially and timewise) the risk of
> having to re-train thousands of users with the productivity drop that this
> would involve
>


I have to say, if that was the case, then no one would have upped to
2007/2010. The last company I worked for who upgraded spent millions on
training and roll-out costs.


I just don't think corporations, especially the bigger ones trust "free"
software yet.


-fe

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Ernst W. Winter Ernst W. Winter
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Peter Rodwell
On Tue, 02 Nov 2010, Peter Rodwell wrote:

> Quoting Marc Paré:
>
> > And yes, MSO format conversions are not 100% and where there are
> > power users like Peter, it may be difficult to rationalize using
> > LibO when his customers are unwilling to adopt an ODF format
> > which would simply work. There is always the option for Peter to
> > propose a change in office suite to his clients and suggest that
> > a free migration to LibO would save them quite a bit in
> > expenditures and would still provide them with the same
> > functionality as MSO but using the ODF formats instead.
>
> My clients are mostly major corporations who don't tend to welcome
> IT strategy suggestions from their suppliers! Sure, they're aware
> of OO and open source in general but they're not planning to change
> anytime soon. This is not because they've been brainwashed by MS;
> it's mostly because they can't afford (financially and timewise)
> the risk of having to re-train thousands of users with the
> productivity drop that this would involve.
>
Yes sounds good. How did the city of Munich change 14,000 PC to OOo?

I do think where there is a willing there will be a way. If Govermnet
Authorities can change, why can't a corporation change. Is it what
people decide or the company? After all the employees would have to
retrain or learn or loose their job, not body is irreplacable.

I have heard often enough talk about big Corporations and all that
and yet see the world change to the point where no force was used,
besides I don't believe that all employees are stupid or lazy when it
comes to learningt something new.

I am retired and so don't have to listen too all such talk. One thing
I have seen that many here in Europe changed to OOo, not only that it
was free but it also was more stable and usable then M$ Office.

What about the Open Source and all that is going on. I doubt that it
can be closed down, and remember years agao when it started and all
the big guns smiled and thought it was just some silly nerd event.

I use LaTeX and vi or vim. My usage of a Office Suite is limited, but
again on the other hand I deal with many that have taken to OOo and
use it and I find it was something wothwile for people wiht little
budgets as well havin cleaner sofrtware to boot with. M$ is not the
allmighty anynore by a long shot.

Also does anyone listen ot "enduser"? I thin that is where there is a
big black hole too.

Sorry, but this is my 2c worth as a enduser.

Ernst

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Peter Rodwell Peter Rodwell
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Frank Esposito
Quoting Frank Esposito:

>> mostly because they can't afford (financially and timewise) the risk of
>> having to re-train thousands of users with the productivity drop that this
>> would involve
>>
>
>
> I have to say, if that was the case, then no one would have upped to
> 2007/2010. The last company I worked for who upgraded spent millions on
> training and roll-out costs.

 From talking to them, it's precisely because they were bitten when they
moved from Office 2003 to 2007 that they're reluctant to make any
further moves, for the time being at least.

> I just don't think corporations, especially the bigger ones trust "free"
> software yet.

This is also true, although I've found a surprising number of IT
professionals who are aware of, trust and are enthusiastic about
open source software at a personal level. It's higher up where the
problems lie, especially after the 2003 to 2007 conversion costs.

P.


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Peter Rodwell
Le 2010-11-02 14:53, Peter Rodwell a écrit :

> Quoting Marc Paré:
>
>> And yes, MSO format conversions are not 100% and where there are power
>> users like Peter, it may be difficult to
>> rationalize using LibO when his customers are unwilling to adopt an
>> ODF format which would simply work. There is always
>> the option for Peter to propose a change in office suite to his
>> clients and suggest that a free migration to LibO would
>> save them quite a bit in expenditures and would still provide them
>> with the same functionality as MSO but using the ODF
>> formats instead.
>
> My clients are mostly major corporations who don't tend to welcome IT
> strategy suggestions from their
> suppliers! Sure, they're aware of OO and open source in general but
> they're not planning to change anytime soon. This is not because they've
> been brainwashed by MS; it's mostly because they can't afford
> (financially and timewise) the risk of having to re-train thousands of
> users with the productivity drop that this would involve.
>
> P.
>

I understand that perfectly well. I am a teacher and school boards are
comparable to major corporations, I sit on an IT committee (software
acquisition) and we talk often about migration. But, the question of IT
support for OS and software is a large issue. They are more and more
interested in the financial savings though. I think that this will
eventually lead them to migration, the $$$ is just too attractive.

Marc



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Peter Rodwell Peter Rodwell
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Ernst W. Winter
Quoting Ernst W. Winter:

> Yes sounds good. How did the city of Munich change 14,000 PC to OOo?

Since I'm in Spain and not in Munich, I have no idea.

> I do think where there is a willing there will be a way. If Govermnet
> Authorities can change, why can't a corporation change.

Public authorities don't have to make a profit. Corporations do. The
changes we are discussing here cost money.

> Is it what
> people decide or the company?

The company, of course.

> besides I don't believe that all employees are stupid or lazy when it
> comes to learningt something new.

Nobody is saying they are. But re-training still takes time.

P.


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T. J. Brumfield T. J. Brumfield
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Re: Old Bugs

The discussion of why companies should or can't migrate away from MS Office
or proprietary document formats is a bit off-topic. I'm also assuming most
of us have had this discussion at length before as well. I'm assuming if
you're on this list that you are in favor of open software and open
standards and have been frustrated at why others aren't as apt to adopt
them.

More on topic however, I think if we can focus efforts on improving LibO to
be the best product, then more people would be willing to switch to it.

Here is a query that will show 198 open issues/bugs/feature requests that
have at least 25 votes:

http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/buglist.cgi?Submit+query=Submit+query&issue_type=DEFECT&issue_type=ENHANCEMENT&issue_type=FEATURE&issue_type=PATCH&issue_status=UNCONFIRMED&issue_status=NEW&issue_status=STARTED&issue_status=REOPENED&issue_status=VERIFIED&email1=&emailtype1=exact&emailassigned_to1=1&email2=&emailtype2=exact&emailreporter2=1&issueidtype=include&issue_id=&changedin=&votes=25&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=&chfieldvalue=&short_desc=&short_desc_type=allwords&long_desc=&long_desc_type=allwords&issue_file_loc=&issue_file_loc_type=fulltext&status_whiteboard=&status_whiteboard_type=fulltext&keywords=&keywords_type=anytokens&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time

I believe some of these are addressed in the go-oo patches, and thusly LibO
today. Looking at that list, which popular existing issues/bugs/feature
requests that people have voted for repeatedly do you think that LibO should
focus on?

Does LibO have its own wiki or bug tracker? I'm not a developer, but I could
compose a list in a wiki, or open matching bugs in a LibO bug tracker. I
imagine that tackling some popular but unresolved issues, and some of the
easy hacks (low hanging fruit) mentioned earlier in this thread might serve
two purposes.

It could attract new developers and also create some clear visible
advantages to the LibO codebase over the OOo codebase.

-- T. J.
On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Peter Rodwell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Quoting Ernst W. Winter:
>
> Yes sounds good. How did the city of Munich change 14,000 PC to OOo?
>>
>
> Since I'm in Spain and not in Munich, I have no idea.
>
> I do think where there is a willing there will be a way. If Govermnet
>> Authorities can change, why can't a corporation change.
>>
>
> Public authorities don't have to make a profit. Corporations do. The
> changes we are discussing here cost money.
>
> Is it what
>> people decide or the company?
>>
>
> The company, of course.
>
> besides I don't believe that all employees are stupid or lazy when it
>> comes to learningt something new.
>>
>
> Nobody is saying they are. But re-training still takes time.
>
> P.
>
>
>
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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Peter Rodwell
On 2010-11-02 11:48 AM, Peter Rodwell wrote:
> There are two reasons why I have just paid money to upgrade to Office
> 2010 instead of switching to OO/LO:
>
> 1. Complete file compatibility. I frequently handle documents with
> very complex formatting. These come from my clients, all of whom use
> MS Office. I translate and edit the documents and return them. They
> *must* retain 100% of the original formatting. So far this has not
> been the case with Oo.

Of course there are formatting problems with OOo when opening some MSO
documents... but, in my experience, OOo has *less* formatting problems
across all different versions of MSO than MSO itself does.

In other words, Office 2010 *will* have formatting problems with
documents in older versions... and OOo often does a *better* job in many
of those cases.

What I would like to see is a web form/system dedicated solely to
improving the LibO <> MSO filters - ie, for reporting problem documents.
Just a text box for describing the problem, and a 'Browse' button to
locate the file for upload...

> 2. Search and replace. I work with large documents, often 400+ pages.
> As I'm translating, I usually come across a word or phrase that I
> know will be repeated throughout the document so I search and replace
> it to avoid having to type it continuously. I do this *dozens* of
> times a day. MS Word leaves me where I was when I did the S/R so that
> I can continue working. Oo leaves me at the point of the last replace
> so I have to manually go back to where I was. I know of many people
> for whom this is a dealbreaker -- they won't move to Oo/LO until this
> is fixed.

Sounds like a good candidate for an extension...

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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Frank Esposito
On 2010-11-02 12:05 PM, Frank Esposito wrote:
> File compatibility should be a priority, in the very least opening and
> saving MSO files with full compatibility

There will *never* be 100% compatibility... like I said earlier, even
Microsoft doesn't achieve that between different versions of its own
programs.

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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Robert Parker
On 2010-11-02 12:07 PM, Robert Parker wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Peter Rodwell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> If this stupid comment is typical of this forum, then I'm out
>> of here.
>
> I don't think we need Microsoft shills anyway.

Robert - if you don't have anything constructive to say, then shut up.

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T. J. Brumfield T. J. Brumfield
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Charles Marcus
True. However, the good news is that the 2007 and 2010 formats are largely
similar and are XML based. The old formats were binary and kept changing.
Since the format isn't changing as much, and the new format is easier to
reverse-engineer, now is a good opportunity for OOo/LibO to "catch up" and
improve their compatibiltiy filters.

In some ways, OOo/LibO is better at opening old MSO documents than MSO
itself. Why not continue to improve that?
The difficult argument for many people has been to switch to a new document
format that most users can't open. But if you convince people that your
product is easily the best solution for opening the millions of
2003-and-before documents, then that is a clear advantage for your product.
It could be the killer feature that helps convince people to migrate.

Are the areas of poor compatibilty enumerated somewhere? Are these unknown?
Should users continue to report speciifc documents and features they have
trouble importing?

-- T. J.
On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 3:06 PM, Charles Marcus <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 2010-11-02 12:05 PM, Frank Esposito wrote:
> > File compatibility should be a priority, in the very least opening and
> > saving MSO files with full compatibility
>
> There will *never* be 100% compatibility... like I said earlier, even
> Microsoft doesn't achieve that between different versions of its own
> programs.
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
>

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Peter Rodwell Peter Rodwell
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by marcpare4
Quoting Marc Paré:

> I understand that perfectly well. I am a teacher and school boards are comparable to major corporations, I sit on an IT
> committee (software acquisition) and we talk often about migration. But, the question of IT support for OS and software
> is a large issue. They are more and more interested in the financial savings though. I think that this will eventually
> lead them to migration, the $$$ is just too attractive.

The difference is of course that public authorities don't have to make a profit while corporations do. Corporations also
tend to think short term, so an immediate retraining cost is more important than possible long term savings. On the
other hand, financial savings are likely to be a major impetus for public authorities as their belts are increasingly
tightened.

P.



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Peter Rodwell Peter Rodwell
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Charles Marcus
Quoting Charles Marcus:

> There will *never* be 100% compatibility... like I said earlier, even
> Microsoft doesn't achieve that between different versions of its own
> programs.

Oddly, I can't offhand remember having any backwards compatibility problems.
I have had very occasional problems loading files saved with the *same*
version.

P.


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Peter Rodwell Peter Rodwell
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Ernst W. Winter
I answered a posting from Ernst W. Winter:

> Yes sounds good. How did the city of Munich change 14,000 PC to OOo?

with a somewhat cursory "I don't know" but the question piqued my interest.
A few minutes' Googling came up with the answer: It didn't.

Reports (e.g., at http://blog.worldlabel.com/2009/limux-where-the-munich-linux-revolution-is-today.html)
show that only 80% of the city's 14,000 PCs will have been changed to open source by
2012 - that's EIGHT YEARS after the project was given the green light.

To be fair, Oo was only a small part of the changeover, which involved an upfront
cost of €13 million for LiMux, a special version of Linux. The council says that's
€2 million MORE than it would have cost to upgrade from Windows NT4 to XP,
but their point wasn't short-term financial saving -- they were more concerned about
being tied to a single supplier.

While a city council can apparently afford to spend this time and taxpayer's money
changing to open source, no corporate CFO would even consider it.

P.



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Ian-2 Ian-2
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Re: Old Bugs

On Tue, 2010-11-02 at 22:09 +0100, Peter Rodwell wrote:

> I answered a posting from Ernst W. Winter:
>
> > Yes sounds good. How did the city of Munich change 14,000 PC to OOo?
>
> with a somewhat cursory "I don't know" but the question piqued my interest.
> A few minutes' Googling came up with the answer: It didn't.
>
> Reports (e.g., at http://blog.worldlabel.com/2009/limux-where-the-munich-linux-revolution-is-today.html)
> show that only 80% of the city's 14,000 PCs will have been changed to open source by
> 2012 - that's EIGHT YEARS after the project was given the green light.
>
> To be fair, Oo was only a small part of the changeover, which involved an upfront
> cost of €13 million for LiMux, a special version of Linux. The council says that's
> €2 million MORE than it would have cost to upgrade from Windows NT4 to XP,
> but their point wasn't short-term financial saving -- they were more concerned about
> being tied to a single supplier.
>
> While a city council can apparently afford to spend this time and taxpayer's money
> changing to open source, no corporate CFO would even consider it.

Some have done. Ernie Ball Guitar strings is one famous case. We are
small but we did it :-)

So I'd say few rather than no CFOs. But we know all that anyway.

Personally, I'm quite happy for Windows to act as a giant magnet pulling
all the malware away from my company :-). I just checked an e-mail
attachment supposedly sent from DHL. .exe file so some Windows malware
or other. Do we really want that stuff targeting Linux any sooner than
necessary? :-)

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Paolo Pozzan Paolo Pozzan
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Re: Old Bugs

In reply to this post by Peter Rodwell
In data martedì 02 novembre 2010 16:48:46, Peter Rodwell ha scritto:

> I have only today joined this discussion so I don't know whether this
> has already been discussed or not.
>
> There are two reasons why I have just paid money to upgrade to Office
> 2010 instead of switching to OO/LO:
>
> 1. Complete file compatibility. I frequently handle documents with
> very complex formatting. These come from my clients, all of whom use
> MS Office. I translate and edit the documents and return them. They
> *must* retain 100% of the original formatting. So far this has not
> been the case with Oo.
[cut]

If it's just for translating the text of the documents, then you must
give a try to OmegaT [1] or a similar tool.
Of course you will need MSO to verify the final document, but the
translation will become much more easier with a CAT tool.

Paolo

[1] http://www.omegat.org/

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