OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

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mhenriday mhenriday
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OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Is this the proper forum to look for an informed discussion concerning what
seems to be the Frieburg Municipal Council's impending decision to abandon
OpenOffice and go back to Microsoft Office (
http://www.arnnet.com.au/article/442330/german_city_says_openoffice_shortcomings_forcing_it_back_microsoft/)
?...

Henri

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NoOp NoOp
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

On 11/17/2012 11:04 AM, M Henri Day wrote:
> Is this the proper forum to look for an informed discussion concerning what
> seems to be the Frieburg Municipal Council's impending decision to abandon
> OpenOffice and go back to Microsoft Office (
> http://www.arnnet.com.au/article/442330/german_city_says_openoffice_shortcomings_forcing_it_back_microsoft/)
> ?...

apache.incubator.ooo.user
and
documentfoundation.discuss

are probably better.




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Pedro Pedro
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

NoOp wrote
apache.incubator.ooo.user
and
documentfoundation.discuss

are probably better.
Actually I think this would fit better on the Discuss forum.

It's not an OpenOffice problem only if you bothered to read the article.

It is a bit worrying that they never updated OpenOffice or even considered LibreOffice.

This is a LibreOffice problem indeed that it doesn't have the public projection for a city council to even consider it...

Especially because LibreOffice is Germany based...
NoOp NoOp
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

On 11/18/2012 04:24 AM, Pedro wrote:

> NoOp wrote
>> apache.incubator.ooo.user
>> and
>> documentfoundation.discuss
>>
>> are probably better.
>
> Actually I think this would fit better on the Discuss forum.
>
> It's not an OpenOffice problem only if you bothered to read the article.

If you had only bothered to *read* my response, you might have noticed:

*and*
*documentfoundation.discuss*

Which part of that do you not understand?

...


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Pedro Pedro
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

NoOp wrote
Which part of that do you not understand?
This part
>> apache.incubator.ooo.user

You are correct that I didn't notice the second option (apologies for that). I wrongly assumed it was another ooo link

But redirecting a LibreOffice issue to an ooo forum doesn't make any sense. And this is a LibreOffice issue. So much so that TDF's Director bothered to answer (unfortunately in German)
http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2012/11/16/open-letter-to-the-city-of-freiburg/

There are some translations in the comments.
Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

I hate to say it, but I think in business MS compatibility is THE paramount
concern. When I was working for a large business, I used LibO only for
documents I knew I didn't have to share with others. For anything that had
to be used by others, I used MS Office.

I realize that LibO is highly compatible with MS Office, but "highly" often
isn't enough. In my experience there were enough incompatibilities that it
just wasn't worth the hassle of trying to clean up documents sent back and
forth between the two office suites.

File format compatibility is far more important than similar user interfaces
or command structures. I would say file compatibility is the primary reason
companies keep buying MS Office.

Virgil



-----Original Message-----
From: Pedro
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 5:25 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

NoOp wrote
> Which part of that do you not understand?

This part
>> apache.incubator.ooo.user

You are correct that I didn't notice the second option (apologies for that).
I wrongly assumed it was another ooo link

But redirecting a LibreOffice issue to an ooo forum doesn't make any sense.
And this is a LibreOffice issue. So much so that TDF's Director bothered to
answer (unfortunately in German)
http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2012/11/16/open-letter-to-the-city-of-freiburg/

There are some translations in the comments.



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View this message in context:
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/OpenOffice-to-be-dumped-in-Freiburg-tp4019224p4019398.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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rosttyo rosttyo
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

I only can use Virgil's word "I hate to say it" but Virgil is right. File compatibility is very
important in our daily business world where we need to exchange editable files within our company
and also with external partners.

Whenever I need to exchange files with MSO formats, I additionally attach a pdf-file or ask for
pdf-file as reference. This is a reduction of productivity - I am willing to take I, but how many
others?

Although I am aware that it is not an easy task and requires dev work, LibO must achieve more than
a high compatibility with MSO formats. I keep fingers crossed.


On 2012-11-19 07:37, VA wrote:

> I hate to say it, but I think in business MS compatibility is THE paramount concern. When I was
> working for a large business, I used LibO only for documents I knew I didn't have to share with
> others. For anything that had to be used by others, I used MS Office.
>
> I realize that LibO is highly compatible with MS Office, but "highly" often isn't enough. In my
> experience there were enough incompatibilities that it just wasn't worth the hassle of trying to
> clean up documents sent back and forth between the two office suites.
>
> File format compatibility is far more important than similar user interfaces or command
> structures. I would say file compatibility is the primary reason companies keep buying MS Office.
>
> Virgil
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Pedro
> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 5:25 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
>
> NoOp wrote
>> Which part of that do you not understand?
>
> This part
>>> apache.incubator.ooo.user
>
> You are correct that I didn't notice the second option (apologies for that).
> I wrongly assumed it was another ooo link
>
> But redirecting a LibreOffice issue to an ooo forum doesn't make any sense.
> And this is a LibreOffice issue. So much so that TDF's Director bothered to
> answer (unfortunately in German)
> http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2012/11/16/open-letter-to-the-city-of-freiburg/
>
> There are some translations in the comments.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/OpenOffice-to-be-dumped-in-Freiburg-tp4019224p4019398.html
> Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>



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Carl Paulsen Carl Paulsen
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a "high" file
compatibility with MS Office.  Virtually every file I receive from MS
Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER convert
correctly, at least from MSO to LO).  I'm only an occasional Office
suite user so I put up with it (plus I'm on a Mac), but I've never been
able to convince others to use LO for this reason alone. And I mostly
work with non-profits who, for several reasons, should be avid LO users.

I also realize MSO, with it's market share, stands only to gain from
keeping it's formatting a moving target.  With that in mind, I just
can't imagine how a project like LO could hope to keep up and make inroads.

Wish I could help with making it work better, but I know nothing about
contributing to development.

Carl




On 11/18/12 7:48 PM, rost52 wrote:

> I only can use Virgil's word "I hate to say it" but Virgil is right.
> File compatibility is very important in our daily business world where
> we need to exchange editable files within our company and also with
> external partners.
>
> Whenever I need to exchange files with MSO formats, I additionally
> attach a pdf-file or ask for pdf-file as reference. This is a
> reduction of productivity - I am willing to take I, but how many others?
>
> Although I am aware that it is not an easy task and requires dev work,
>  LibO must achieve more than a high compatibility with MSO formats.
> I keep fingers crossed.
>
>
> On 2012-11-19 07:37, VA wrote:
>> I hate to say it, but I think in business MS compatibility is THE
>> paramount concern. When I was working for a large business, I used
>> LibO only for documents I knew I didn't have to share with others.
>> For anything that had to be used by others, I used MS Office.
>>
>> I realize that LibO is highly compatible with MS Office, but "highly"
>> often isn't enough. In my experience there were enough
>> incompatibilities that it just wasn't worth the hassle of trying to
>> clean up documents sent back and forth between the two office suites.
>>
>> File format compatibility is far more important than similar user
>> interfaces or command structures. I would say file compatibility is
>> the primary reason companies keep buying MS Office.
>>
>> Virgil
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Pedro
>> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 5:25 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
>>
>> NoOp wrote
>>> Which part of that do you not understand?
>>
>> This part
>>>> apache.incubator.ooo.user
>>
>> You are correct that I didn't notice the second option (apologies for
>> that).
>> I wrongly assumed it was another ooo link
>>
>> But redirecting a LibreOffice issue to an ooo forum doesn't make any
>> sense.
>> And this is a LibreOffice issue. So much so that TDF's Director
>> bothered to
>> answer (unfortunately in German)
>> http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2012/11/16/open-letter-to-the-city-of-freiburg/ 
>>
>>
>> There are some translations in the comments.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/OpenOffice-to-be-dumped-in-Freiburg-tp4019224p4019398.html
>> Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>
>
>

--

Carl Paulsen

8 Hamilton Street

Dover, NH 03820

(603) 749-2310


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rosttyo rosttyo
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Like Carl. I unfortunately cannot contribute to development work.

I would just like to come back to productivity and my own experience:
LibO has features which are as good or better than MSO in respect to productivity. What reduces my
productivity are bugs (first it takes time to find out is a bug or did I make a mistake; second bug
reporting) and corrections of MSO files I receive because they open only open with errors.

How can LibO make market shares against MSO?

For my feeling shares can be taken with a high productivity of LibO.

This can be achieved with many bugs less and full compatibility. MSO doesn' come up with a new
format every week, thus our devs have a very good chance to adjust LibO to full compatibility.

I am convinced that
- a big part of the reasons why the City of Freiburg considers to dump OO are the above mentioned
productivity issues (bugs and non-compatibility)
- above sketched productivity increase would enable LibO to gain substantial market shares from MSO,
- and that the required productivity increase can be released within not too much time.




On 2012-11-19 12:04, Carl Paulsen wrote:

> In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a "high" file compatibility with MS Office.  
> Virtually every file I receive from MS Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost
> NEVER convert correctly, at least from MSO to LO).  I'm only an occasional Office suite user so I
> put up with it (plus I'm on a Mac), but I've never been able to convince others to use LO for this
> reason alone. And I mostly work with non-profits who, for several reasons, should be avid LO users.
>
> I also realize MSO, with it's market share, stands only to gain from keeping it's formatting a
> moving target.  With that in mind, I just can't imagine how a project like LO could hope to keep
> up and make inroads.
>
> Wish I could help with making it work better, but I know nothing about contributing to development.
>
> Carl
>
>
>
>
> On 11/18/12 7:48 PM, rost52 wrote:
>> I only can use Virgil's word "I hate to say it" but Virgil is right. File compatibility is very
>> important in our daily business world where we need to exchange editable files within our company
>> and also with external partners.
>>
>> Whenever I need to exchange files with MSO formats, I additionally attach a pdf-file or ask for
>> pdf-file as reference. This is a reduction of productivity - I am willing to take I, but how many
>> others?
>>
>> Although I am aware that it is not an easy task and requires dev work,  LibO must achieve more
>> than a high compatibility with MSO formats. I keep fingers crossed.
>>
>>
>> On 2012-11-19 07:37, VA wrote:
>>> I hate to say it, but I think in business MS compatibility is THE paramount concern. When I was
>>> working for a large business, I used LibO only for documents I knew I didn't have to share with
>>> others. For anything that had to be used by others, I used MS Office.
>>>
>>> I realize that LibO is highly compatible with MS Office, but "highly" often isn't enough. In my
>>> experience there were enough incompatibilities that it just wasn't worth the hassle of trying to
>>> clean up documents sent back and forth between the two office suites.
>>>
>>> File format compatibility is far more important than similar user interfaces or command
>>> structures. I would say file compatibility is the primary reason companies keep buying MS Office.
>>>
>>> Virgil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Pedro
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 5:25 PM
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?
>>>
>>> NoOp wrote
>>>> Which part of that do you not understand?
>>>
>>> This part
>>>>> apache.incubator.ooo.user
>>>
>>> You are correct that I didn't notice the second option (apologies for that).
>>> I wrongly assumed it was another ooo link
>>>
>>> But redirecting a LibreOffice issue to an ooo forum doesn't make any sense.
>>> And this is a LibreOffice issue. So much so that TDF's Director bothered to
>>> answer (unfortunately in German)
>>> http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2012/11/16/open-letter-to-the-city-of-freiburg/
>>>
>>> There are some translations in the comments.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/OpenOffice-to-be-dumped-in-Freiburg-tp4019224p4019398.html
>>> Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>



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mhenriday mhenriday
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012/11/19 rost52 <[hidden email]>

> Like Carl. I unfortunately cannot contribute to development work.
>
> I would just like to come back to productivity and my own experience:
> LibO has features which are as good or better than MSO in respect to
> productivity. What reduces my productivity are bugs (first it takes time to
> find out is a bug or did I make a mistake; second bug reporting) and
> corrections of MSO files I receive because they open only open with errors.
>
> How can LibO make market shares against MSO?
>
> For my feeling shares can be taken with a high productivity of LibO.
>
> This can be achieved with many bugs less and full compatibility. MSO
> doesn' come up with a new format every week, thus our devs have a very good
> chance to adjust LibO to full compatibility.
>
> I am convinced that
> - a big part of the reasons why the City of Freiburg considers to dump OO
> are the above mentioned productivity issues (bugs and non-compatibility)
> - above sketched productivity increase would enable LibO to gain
> substantial market shares from MSO,
> - and that the required productivity increase can be released within not
> too much time.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2012-11-19 12:04, Carl Paulsen wrote:
>
>> In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a "high" file
>> compatibility with MS Office.  Virtually every file I receive from MS
>> Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER convert
>> correctly, at least from MSO to LO).  I'm only an occasional Office suite
>> user so I put up with it (plus I'm on a Mac), but I've never been able to
>> convince others to use LO for this reason alone. And I mostly work with
>> non-profits who, for several reasons, should be avid LO users.
>>
>> I also realize MSO, with it's market share, stands only to gain from
>> keeping it's formatting a moving target.  With that in mind, I just can't
>> imagine how a project like LO could hope to keep up and make inroads.
>>
>> Wish I could help with making it work better, but I know nothing about
>> contributing to development.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/18/12 7:48 PM, rost52 wrote:
>>
>>> I only can use Virgil's word "I hate to say it" but Virgil is right.
>>> File compatibility is very important in our daily business world where we
>>> need to exchange editable files within our company and also with external
>>> partners.
>>>
>>> Whenever I need to exchange files with MSO formats, I additionally
>>> attach a pdf-file or ask for pdf-file as reference. This is a reduction of
>>> productivity - I am willing to take I, but how many others?
>>>
>>> Although I am aware that it is not an easy task and requires dev work,
>>>  LibO must achieve more than a high compatibility with MSO formats. I keep
>>> fingers crossed.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2012-11-19 07:37, VA wrote:
>>>
>>>> I hate to say it, but I think in business MS compatibility is THE
>>>> paramount concern. When I was working for a large business, I used LibO
>>>> only for documents I knew I didn't have to share with others. For anything
>>>> that had to be used by others, I used MS Office.
>>>>
>>>> I realize that LibO is highly compatible with MS Office, but "highly"
>>>> often isn't enough. In my experience there were enough incompatibilities
>>>> that it just wasn't worth the hassle of trying to clean up documents sent
>>>> back and forth between the two office suites.
>>>>
>>>> File format compatibility is far more important than similar user
>>>> interfaces or command structures. I would say file compatibility is the
>>>> primary reason companies keep buying MS Office.
>>>>
>>>> Virgil
>>>>
>>>
I was greatly pleased to see the Document Foundation's open letter to the
City of Freiburg (thanks, Pedro, for the link !) and also that it was
written in German - Freiburg is, after all, a German town and the
foundation is a organisation incorporated in Germany ! Readers whose German
isn't up to the task of reading it can make use of tools like Google
Translate to get the gist....

I was even more pleased to see that a discussion has started in this forum
which deals with concrete problems in using LibreOffice in an environment
dominated by MS Office. I can say that in my (limited) experience,
conversion of documents between various versions of MS Word and Writer
usually goes without problems, but that spreadsheets and presentations
often present difficulties.

Hochachtungsvoll

Henri

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Tanstaafl Tanstaafl
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

In reply to this post by rosttyo
On 2012-11-19 1:40 AM, rost52 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This can be achieved with many bugs less and full compatibility. MSO
> doesn' come up with a new format every week, thus our devs have a very
> good chance to adjust LibO to full compatibility.

Sounds easy, doesn't it? Until you realize that the documentation of the
file formats is secret.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to reverse engineer a binary file
format spec (even the new XML formats contain binary code).

On 2012-11-19 12:04, Carl Paulsen wrote:
> In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a "high" file
> compatibility with MS Office. Virtually every file I receive from MS
> Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER
> convert correctly, at least from MSO to LO).

In our experience (smallish company with base of 50+ users), file format
compatability was actually very good *until* Microsoft came out with
their new 'improved' XML formats in office 2007. It got *much* worse
with the newer version in Office 2010 - so much worse that many files
were totally crashing Libreoffice.

It was this that caused the boss to mandate that new PC purchases come
with an Office License, and we buy 5 additional ones until everyone gets
Microsoft Office.

We will continue to install LibreOffice side by side, but the days of
only our Accountants having Office are over, I'm sad to say.


On 11/18/12 7:48 PM, rost52 wrote:
> Whenever I need to exchange files with MSO formats, I additionally
> attach a pdf-file or ask for pdf-file as reference. This is a
> reduction of productivity - I am willing to take I, but how many
> others?
>
> Although I am aware that it is not an easy task and requires dev
> work,  LibO must achieve more than a high compatibility with MSO
> formats. I keep fingers crossed.

I don't see this happening any more. Microsoft is on a roll now, coming
out with new versions *far* more often than they used to (which means
they can 'improve' the file formats much more often). My understanding
is they are actually pushing ultimately to a subscriptions based model -
but this could end up being good news, because imnsho, dong this could
actually back fire on them though (fingers crossed)... when I discussed
this with my boss, he commented that the day Microsoft *forces* us to
have to 'renew' our licenses annually is the day he will never upgrade
again (just stay on whatever version we currently have until the world
ends).

Charles

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mhenriday mhenriday
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012/11/19 Tanstaafl <[hidden email]>

> On 2012-11-19 1:40 AM, rost52 <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> This can be achieved with many bugs less and full compatibility. MSO
>> doesn' come up with a new format every week, thus our devs have a very
>> good chance to adjust LibO to full compatibility.
>>
>
> Sounds easy, doesn't it? Until you realize that the documentation of the
> file formats is secret.
>
> Do you have any idea how hard it is to reverse engineer a binary file
> format spec (even the new XML formats contain binary code).
>
>
> On 2012-11-19 12:04, Carl Paulsen wrote:
>
>> In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a "high" file
>> compatibility with MS Office. Virtually every file I receive from MS
>> Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER
>> convert correctly, at least from MSO to LO).
>>
>
> In our experience (smallish company with base of 50+ users), file format
> compatability was actually very good *until* Microsoft came out with
> their new 'improved' XML formats in office 2007. It got *much* worse
> with the newer version in Office 2010 - so much worse that many files
> were totally crashing Libreoffice.
>
> It was this that caused the boss to mandate that new PC purchases come
> with an Office License, and we buy 5 additional ones until everyone gets
> Microsoft Office.
>
> We will continue to install LibreOffice side by side, but the days of
> only our Accountants having Office are over, I'm sad to say.
>
>
>
> On 11/18/12 7:48 PM, rost52 wrote:
>
>> Whenever I need to exchange files with MSO formats, I additionally
>> attach a pdf-file or ask for pdf-file as reference. This is a
>> reduction of productivity - I am willing to take I, but how many
>> others?
>>
>> Although I am aware that it is not an easy task and requires dev
>> work,  LibO must achieve more than a high compatibility with MSO
>> formats. I keep fingers crossed.
>>
>
> I don't see this happening any more. Microsoft is on a roll now, coming
> out with new versions *far* more often than they used to (which means they
> can 'improve' the file formats much more often). My understanding is they
> are actually pushing ultimately to a subscriptions based model - but this
> could end up being good news, because imnsho, dong this could actually back
> fire on them though (fingers crossed)... when I discussed this with my
> boss, he commented that the day Microsoft *forces* us to have to 'renew'
> our licenses annually is the day he will never upgrade again (just stay on
> whatever version we currently have until the world ends).
>
> Charles
>

An excellent exposition of the methods used by Microsoft to «protect» its
«intellectual property» - more accurately described as using its
quasi-monopoly to exclude others from the market....

Henri

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Tanstaafl Tanstaafl
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

On 2012-11-19 6:54 AM, M Henri Day <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2012/11/19 Tanstaafl<[hidden email]>
<snip>
>> I don't see this happening any more. Microsoft is on a roll now, coming
>> out with new versions *far* more often than they used to (which means they
>> can 'improve' the file formats much more often). My understanding is they
>> are actually pushing ultimately to a subscriptions based model - but this
>> could end up being good news, because imnsho, dong this could actually back
>> fire on them though (fingers crossed)... when I discussed this with my
>> boss, he commented that the day Microsoft *forces* us to have to 'renew'
>> our licenses annually is the day he will never upgrade again (just stay on
>> whatever version we currently have until the world ends).

> An excellent exposition of the methods used by Microsoft to «protect» its
> «intellectual property» - more accurately described as using its
> quasi-monopoly to exclude others from the market....

There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
understand has benefited the Samba project immensely).

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mhenriday mhenriday
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

2012/11/19 Tanstaafl <[hidden email]>

> On 2012-11-19 6:54 AM, M Henri Day <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> 2012/11/19 Tanstaafl<[hidden email]>
>
>
<snip>


>  An excellent exposition of the methods used by Microsoft to «protect» its
>> «intellectual property» - more accurately described as using its
>> quasi-monopoly to exclude others from the market....
>>
>
> There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
> other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
> lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
> formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
> understand has benefited the Samba project immensely).
>

A consumation devoutly to be wished....

Henri

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Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

In reply to this post by Tanstaafl
The truly maddening part is that, if more people used LibO, then the .ODT
format would become "standard" and MS would be relegated to irrelevance.

So, Office wins because corporations buy it, making its file format
"standard," which forces the rest of us to conform.

It's absolutely crazy.

Virgil

-----Original Message-----
From: Tanstaafl
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 7:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

On 2012-11-19 6:54 AM, M Henri Day <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2012/11/19 Tanstaafl<[hidden email]>
<snip>

>> I don't see this happening any more. Microsoft is on a roll now, coming
>> out with new versions *far* more often than they used to (which means
>> they
>> can 'improve' the file formats much more often). My understanding is they
>> are actually pushing ultimately to a subscriptions based model - but this
>> could end up being good news, because imnsho, dong this could actually
>> back
>> fire on them though (fingers crossed)... when I discussed this with my
>> boss, he commented that the day Microsoft *forces* us to have to 'renew'
>> our licenses annually is the day he will never upgrade again (just stay
>> on
>> whatever version we currently have until the world ends).

> An excellent exposition of the methods used by Microsoft to «protect» its
> «intellectual property» - more accurately described as using its
> quasi-monopoly to exclude others from the market....

There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
understand has benefited the Samba project immensely).

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deleted


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Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

In reply to this post by Tanstaafl
Tanstaafl wrote:

"There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
understand has benefited the Samba project immensely)."


It would help immensely if the Open Source folks would combine their efforts
on one excellent MS alternative. The twin development of AOO and LibO (with
each having its own advantages over the other), only helps MS.

Virgil


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Regina Henschel Regina Henschel
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

In reply to this post by Carl Paulsen
Hi,
Carl Paulsen schrieb:

> In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a "high" file
> compatibility with MS Office.  Virtually every file I receive from MS
> Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER convert
> correctly, at least from MSO to LO).  I'm only an occasional Office
> suite user so I put up with it (plus I'm on a Mac), but I've never been
> able to convince others to use LO for this reason alone. And I mostly
> work with non-profits who, for several reasons, should be avid LO users.
>
> I also realize MSO, with it's market share, stands only to gain from
> keeping it's formatting a moving target.  With that in mind, I just
> can't imagine how a project like LO could hope to keep up and make inroads.
>
> Wish I could help with making it work better, but I know nothing about
> contributing to development.

You do not need to be a developer to help. One idea for interoperability
I heard on LibOCon, is to make templates, that can be converted nicely.
So if you have access to MSO, then examine, what kind of things are
dangerous for converting and what kind of things convert without
problems. Make a Wiki site with your observations and create good
templates based on this rationale.

Kind regards
Regina


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Carl Paulsen Carl Paulsen
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

Thanks, Regina.  I know there are other ways to contribute, but I don't
necessarily know what they are.  Templates is one way, but the real
issue I see is going from MSO to LO/OO.  We can't control the other end.

So is there a simple list of SPECIFIC ways users can contribute
(templates is a good example) that is easily found?  I've seen some
general lists of how to contribute, but I haven't searched much for more
specifics.  In any case it should probably be front and center on the
website (again, not the develop, donate $$, etc. generic list, but more
specifics).

Carl


On 11/19/12 8:09 AM, Regina Henschel wrote:

> Hi,
> Carl Paulsen schrieb:
>> In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a "high" file
>> compatibility with MS Office.  Virtually every file I receive from MS
>> Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER convert
>> correctly, at least from MSO to LO).  I'm only an occasional Office
>> suite user so I put up with it (plus I'm on a Mac), but I've never been
>> able to convince others to use LO for this reason alone. And I mostly
>> work with non-profits who, for several reasons, should be avid LO users.
>>
>> I also realize MSO, with it's market share, stands only to gain from
>> keeping it's formatting a moving target.  With that in mind, I just
>> can't imagine how a project like LO could hope to keep up and make
>> inroads.
>>
>> Wish I could help with making it work better, but I know nothing about
>> contributing to development.
>
> You do not need to be a developer to help. One idea for
> interoperability I heard on LibOCon, is to make templates, that can be
> converted nicely. So if you have access to MSO, then examine, what
> kind of things are dangerous for converting and what kind of things
> convert without problems. Make a Wiki site with your observations and
> create good templates based on this rationale.
>
> Kind regards
> Regina
>
>

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krackedpress krackedpress
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?


I contribute to LibreOffice by working on the North American Community
DVD Project in creating English distribution DVDs.  Also I have created
the largest [so I have been told] spell checking dictionaries for
American English, British English, and Canadian English.  Also, I try to
help people out on some of the lists.

There is a project that is getting started, by some of the users, to
create a 4 page cheat sheet to help new users learn and use
LibreOffice.  That is in the initial "idea" stage and needs help to get
it going.

So there are options out there than could use some people who do not
have any programming skills, or marketing skills.  If you have the
ability to explain how things are done in LibreOffice and get that down
on paper, you are needed.  I know that the documentation people are
looking for people to do various things.  Heck, if you can go to the
NA-DVD project and help make it better, I would be most grateful.

Tim L.
[hidden email]
http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.6-installs/install.html


On 11/19/2012 08:34 AM, Carl Paulsen wrote:

> Thanks, Regina.  I know there are other ways to contribute, but I
> don't necessarily know what they are.  Templates is one way, but the
> real issue I see is going from MSO to LO/OO.  We can't control the
> other end.
>
> So is there a simple list of SPECIFIC ways users can contribute
> (templates is a good example) that is easily found?  I've seen some
> general lists of how to contribute, but I haven't searched much for
> more specifics.  In any case it should probably be front and center on
> the website (again, not the develop, donate $$, etc. generic list, but
> more specifics).
>
> Carl
>
>
> On 11/19/12 8:09 AM, Regina Henschel wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Carl Paulsen schrieb:
>>> In practical use, I would NOT say LO (or OOo) has a "high" file
>>> compatibility with MS Office.  Virtually every file I receive from MS
>>> Office users has some kind of problem (bullet lists almost NEVER
>>> convert
>>> correctly, at least from MSO to LO).  I'm only an occasional Office
>>> suite user so I put up with it (plus I'm on a Mac), but I've never been
>>> able to convince others to use LO for this reason alone. And I mostly
>>> work with non-profits who, for several reasons, should be avid LO
>>> users.
>>>
>>> I also realize MSO, with it's market share, stands only to gain from
>>> keeping it's formatting a moving target.  With that in mind, I just
>>> can't imagine how a project like LO could hope to keep up and make
>>> inroads.
>>>
>>> Wish I could help with making it work better, but I know nothing about
>>> contributing to development.
>>
>> You do not need to be a developer to help. One idea for
>> interoperability I heard on LibOCon, is to make templates, that can
>> be converted nicely. So if you have access to MSO, then examine, what
>> kind of things are dangerous for converting and what kind of things
>> convert without problems. Make a Wiki site with your observations and
>> create good templates based on this rationale.
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Regina
>>
>>
>


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Jay Lozier Jay Lozier
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Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in Freiburg ?

In reply to this post by Virgil Arrington
On 11/19/2012 07:49 AM, VA wrote:

> The truly maddening part is that, if more people used LibO, then the
> .ODT format would become "standard" and MS would be relegated to
> irrelevance.
>
> So, Office wins because corporations buy it, making its file format
> "standard," which forces the rest of us to conform.
>
> It's absolutely crazy.
>
> Virgil
ODF formats are the international standard so technically MS is not
being standards compliant. This may be very useful if someone where to
sue MS for monopolistic practices.

>
> -----Original Message----- From: Tanstaafl
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 7:32 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OpenOffice to be dumped in
> Freiburg ?
>
> On 2012-11-19 6:54 AM, M Henri Day <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> 2012/11/19 Tanstaafl<[hidden email]>
> <snip>
>>> I don't see this happening any more. Microsoft is on a roll now, coming
>>> out with new versions *far* more often than they used to (which
>>> means they
>>> can 'improve' the file formats much more often). My understanding is
>>> they
>>> are actually pushing ultimately to a subscriptions based model - but
>>> this
>>> could end up being good news, because imnsho, dong this could
>>> actually back
>>> fire on them though (fingers crossed)... when I discussed this with my
>>> boss, he commented that the day Microsoft *forces* us to have to
>>> 'renew'
>>> our licenses annually is the day he will never upgrade again (just
>>> stay on
>>> whatever version we currently have until the world ends).
>
Subscription based models are probably better for the vendor not the
user over the life of the product. I suspect the fees will be charged
monthly instead of annually to lower the sticker shock and even out cash
flow.

Implicit in this model is that users will being using the "Cloud" to
access the programs rather than having it installed on their machines.
This raises another set of issues about the "Cloud" versus local
installation.

>> An excellent exposition of the methods used by Microsoft to «protect»
>> its
>> «intellectual property» - more accurately described as using its
>> quasi-monopoly to exclude others from the market....
>
> There is one more hing that could turn this around - if the EU (or some
> other major governmental entity) were to engage in and win an antitrust
> lawsuit against Microsoft and force them to *fully* document their file
> formats, as happened with their Windows Server SMB protocols (which I
> understand has benefited the Samba project immensely).
>


--
Jay Lozier
[hidden email]


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