[PATCH] Make the toolbars not popping-up randomly

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Tim Hardeck Tim Hardeck
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[PATCH] Make the toolbars not popping-up randomly

Hi,

Undocked, context sensitive toolbars often tend to overlay important
parts of the document.

With this patch these toolbars should be docked to the bottom to prevent
the document from being moved each time the toolbar is displayed.
Furthermore the findbar setting was changed to make sure that it stays
on top of the other toolbars at the bottom.


After working with these files I would suggest to consolidate them if
possible.

Like one global default file for all applications, since many toolbars
are shared and evenly treated.
For every application and the dialogs which really need a special
default configuration only the difference to the global one is stored
and not parts of it.

In this case for example I could have moved the tableobjectbar with one
instead of eight changes to the bottom.

This change should also have no influence on the user configuration
since these files are only relevant for the default settings.

So what do you think?

Tim

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Noel Power-3 Noel Power-3
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Re: [PUSHED] [PATCH] Make the toolbars not popping-up randomly

On 16/11/11 19:12, Tim Hardeck wrote:
> Hi,
[...]
> This change should also have no influence on the user configuration
> since these files are only relevant for the default settings.
>
true, so pushed, hopefully the new defaults will help

Noel
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Michael Meeks-2 Michael Meeks-2
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Re: [PATCH] Make the toolbars not popping-up randomly

In reply to this post by Tim Hardeck
Hi Tim,

        Great feature; lets see what the UX advise guys have to say about it.
Prolly they'll want to play with the next dev build.

        Also - the toolbar / framework code doing excessive serialisation to
disk of the toolbar state is rather irritating; it causes grief with
Groupwise embedding LibreOffice (on windows via OLE2) since as they turn
the toolbars off, this is saved as the default setting for this; not
really sure what to do about that - but being able to turn that
serialisation off per-window would be a rather useful feature [ if
you're near there ;-].

        All the best,

                Michael.

On Wed, 2011-11-16 at 20:12 +0100, Tim Hardeck wrote:

> Undocked, context sensitive toolbars often tend to overlay important
> parts of the document.
>
> With this patch these toolbars should be docked to the bottom to prevent
> the document from being moved each time the toolbar is displayed.
> Furthermore the findbar setting was changed to make sure that it stays
> on top of the other toolbars at the bottom.
>
>
> After working with these files I would suggest to consolidate them if
> possible.
>
> Like one global default file for all applications, since many toolbars
> are shared and evenly treated.
> For every application and the dialogs which really need a special
> default configuration only the difference to the global one is stored
> and not parts of it.
>
> In this case for example I could have moved the tableobjectbar with one
> instead of eight changes to the bottom.
>
> This change should also have no influence on the user configuration
> since these files are only relevant for the default settings.
>
> So what do you think?
>
> Tim
>
> _______________________________________________
> LibreOffice mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: [PATCH] Make the toolbars not popping-up randomly

In reply to this post by Tim Hardeck
Hi Tim,

Tim Hardeck wrote (17-11-11 17:07)

> On 11/17/2011 04:00 PM, Cor Nouws wrote:
>> Tim Hardeck wrote (16-11-11 20:12)
>>> With this patch these toolbars should be docked to the bottom to prevent
>>> the document from being moved each time the toolbar is displayed.
>>
>> Could you please explain a bit further?
>> Who should dock the toolbars to the bottom? Or is that a condition for
>> the toolbars to have the show/hide behaviour ?
>
> I have changed the default behavior of these mentioned toolbars, like
> the one that appears when you click on a table in Writer, to be shown at
> the bottom.
> If you want to check how it looks just run ctrl + f which will open the
> findbar at the bottom.

Yes, I recognise that.

> Unlike a new toolbar at the top the document
> center will not move that's why we decided to show them a the bottom.
>
> Since this does only affect the default configuration users with
> existing Libreoffice configurations wouldn't be influenced. They would
> have to dock the bars on their own to the bottom or reset this
> particular configuration.

Ah, now I see.
(Re-reading your initial post shows it too - but after some technical
thoughts regarding the organisation fo the configuration - which me made
skip some text).

I'm glad with your solution.

Thanks - for further explaining too.

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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [PATCH] Make the toolbars not popping-up randomly

In reply to this post by Michael Meeks-2
Hi Tim, hi Michael, hello Kohei, all!

Am Donnerstag, den 17.11.2011, 13:58 +0000 schrieb Michael Meeks:
> Hi Tim,
>
> Great feature; lets see what the UX advise guys have to say about it.
> Prolly they'll want to play with the next dev build.

Sure, will try ... I hope others as well.

[...]

> On Wed, 2011-11-16 at 20:12 +0100, Tim Hardeck wrote:
> > Undocked, context sensitive toolbars often tend to overlay important
> > parts of the document.
> >
> > With this patch these toolbars should be docked to the bottom to prevent
> > the document from being moved each time the toolbar is displayed.
> > Furthermore the findbar setting was changed to make sure that it stays
> > on top of the other toolbars at the bottom.

[...]

> > So what do you think?

Well, I think I don't get everything from the technical description, so
I really have to try. At the moment, I'm thinking about stuff like
potentially increased mouse movement ...


Cheers,
Christoph

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [PATCH] Make the toolbars not popping-up randomly

Christoph Noack wrote (18-11-11 22:01)

> Well, I think I don't get everything from the technical description,

With the patch, initially the pop-up-behaving toolbars are docked above
the status bar.

> so I really have to try. At the moment, I'm thinking about stuff like
> potentially increased mouse movement ...


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Lior Kaplan Lior Kaplan
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [PATCH] Make the toolbars not popping-up randomly

In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:01 PM, Christoph Noack <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Tim, hi Michael, hello Kohei, all!

Am Donnerstag, den 17.11.2011, 13:58 +0000 schrieb Michael Meeks:
> Hi Tim,
>
>       Great feature; lets see what the UX advise guys have to say about it.
> Prolly they'll want to play with the next dev build.

Sure, will try ... I hope others as well.

[...]

> On Wed, 2011-11-16 at 20:12 +0100, Tim Hardeck wrote:
> > Undocked, context sensitive toolbars often tend to overlay important
> > parts of the document.
> >
> > With this patch these toolbars should be docked to the bottom to prevent
> > the document from being moved each time the toolbar is displayed.
> > Furthermore the findbar setting was changed to make sure that it stays
> > on top of the other toolbars at the bottom.

[...]

> > So what do you think?

Well, I think I don't get everything from the technical description, so
I really have to try. At the moment, I'm thinking about stuff like
potentially increased mouse movement ...


At least for my self these pop up toolbar are annoying the my mouse movements are to move them to somewhere when they don't interfere with editing the document. I think that have them in a fixed location, and on the bottom, is a good idea.

Kaplan

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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [PATCH] Make the toolbars not popping-up randomly

In reply to this post by Cor Nouws
Hi Cor, hi all!

Am Freitag, den 18.11.2011, 23:08 +0100 schrieb Cor Nouws:
> Christoph Noack wrote (18-11-11 22:01)
>
> > Well, I think I don't get everything from the technical description,
>
> With the patch, initially the pop-up-behaving toolbars are docked above
> the status bar.

Thanks for the explanation!

> > so I really have to try.

Well, since I wanted to try out other features as well, I've installed a
recent daily build and here are some comments. Before I start, I really
have to say that the concept derived from OOo has its disadvantages
(whether the toolbars are floating ones or docked).

According to my tryout:
      * If toolbars appear at the bottom, they might not be noticed
        easily recognized (not within the "primary area of focus").
        Especially since there is a connection "click on the object" ->
        "toolbar appears" which enables learning for the user.
      * Toolbars are "horizontally stacked". Thus, on my VM system
        (medium resolution display) working in a table (toolbar #1) with
        bullets (toolbar #2) is hard. Only two buttons from toolbar #2
        are available. Thus, I fear that some people might not even
        notice its existance. (There may be other examples.)
      * If users have rather large screens, then the mouse travel
        distance is increased.
      * When we've presented some proposals within the OOo Renaissance
        project, people "mentioned" that vertical space is valuable due
        to widescreen displays.

Consequently: Whilst I'm thinking that its better for users who know
OOo / LibO well, it may make things tough for new users.

Unfortunately, I have no better solution at the moment - without
changing the concept that much. But maybe the points I've raised help to
judge the impact ... maybe there are also other ideas around.

Cheers,
Christoph

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Jan Holesovsky Jan Holesovsky
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [PATCH] Make the toolbars not popping-up randomly

Hi Christoph,

On 2011-11-18 at 23:56 +0100, Christoph Noack wrote:

> Well, since I wanted to try out other features as well, I've installed a
> recent daily build and here are some comments. Before I start, I really
> have to say that the concept derived from OOo has its disadvantages
> (whether the toolbars are floating ones or docked).
>
> According to my tryout:
>       * If toolbars appear at the bottom, they might not be noticed
>         easily recognized (not within the "primary area of focus").
>         Especially since there is a connection "click on the object" ->
>         "toolbar appears" which enables learning for the user.
>       * Toolbars are "horizontally stacked". Thus, on my VM system
>         (medium resolution display) working in a table (toolbar #1) with
>         bullets (toolbar #2) is hard. Only two buttons from toolbar #2
>         are available. Thus, I fear that some people might not even
>         notice its existance. (There may be other examples.)
>       * If users have rather large screens, then the mouse travel
>         distance is increased.
>       * When we've presented some proposals within the OOo Renaissance
>         project, people "mentioned" that vertical space is valuable due
>         to widescreen displays.
>
> Consequently: Whilst I'm thinking that its better for users who know
> OOo / LibO well, it may make things tough for new users.

Thank you for testing this!  These are very good points, though I don't
think it is that bad even for the new users - the new users are / have
to be more careful about what is happening when they are doing
something, so it is much more probable that they won't miss it.

Also, most of the tools available in the popping up toolbars are for
advanced use; the basic stuff like bullets on / off etc. are available
already in the standard toolbar, so not that big deal if they overlook
the toolbar for the first use.

About the mouse travel - with a random position of the mouse, top of the
document is equally far as the bottom in average; of course unless the
users tend to let their mouse cursor at some specific location with
higher probability.  I am not sure, maybe that's actually the case?
Though I assume it is more natural to keep both the mouse and the text
cursor close together - then your cursor travel depends on whether you
are at the top of the page, or at the bottom.

> Unfortunately, I have no better solution at the moment - without
> changing the concept that much. But maybe the points I've raised help to
> judge the impact ... maybe there are also other ideas around.

I have something in my mind, which would be a change of concept, and
definitely not doable in the 3.5 timeframe; but I'll present it here
anyway ;-)

When you are in a table / numbering / ... (with your text cursor),
instead of popping up a toolbar, just show the icons to the left to the
object, as part of the document area, nearly transparent, and make them
behave so that the closer the mouse cursor is to that, the more opaque
they get.  When the mouse cursor gets over the icon, behave like a tool
in the toolbar (with the mouseover effect and whatnot).  This would
solve the long travel to the toolbar (assuming that it is more natural
to have both the mouse as well as the text cursor close together - which
happens when you eg. click in the text), as well as it would be
reasonably visible, though not annoying.

Something like this:

http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/ideas/context-toolbars-only-icons.png

But I am sure you have something in your mind too?

Regards,
Kendy

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [PATCH] Make the toolbars not popping-up randomly

Hi all,

Jan Holesovsky wrote (19-11-11 03:32)
> On 2011-11-18 at 23:56 +0100, Christoph Noack wrote:

>>        * When we've presented some proposals within the OOo Renaissance
>>          project, people "mentioned" that vertical space is valuable due
>>          to widescreen displays.

So what about the possibility to dock the three involved toolbars at the
left side by default?
Would result in some minor distortion of the display mostly. Just enough
to make sure that people notice ?
Not too far from the work.
And a nice prelude for this idea:

> http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/ideas/context-toolbars-only-icons.png



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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [PATCH] Make the toolbars not popping-up randomly

Hi Cor,

On 2011-11-19 at 08:40 +0100, Cor Nouws wrote:

> >>        * When we've presented some proposals within the OOo Renaissance
> >>          project, people "mentioned" that vertical space is valuable due
> >>          to widescreen displays.
>
> So what about the possibility to dock the three involved toolbars at the
> left side by default?

The problem with docking them there is that if you let the behavior as
it is now (pop-up when you are in the bullet list / table / etc., and
disappear when you leave that), then your document will be jumping left
and right, which would be incredibly annoying :-(  That's why I thought
of the 'context icons'.  Or did you actually mean something different?

Regards,
Kendy

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [PATCH] Make the toolbars not popping-up randomly

Hi Kendy :-)

Jan Holesovsky wrote (21-11-11 16:25)

> The problem with docking them there is that if you let the behavior as
> it is now (pop-up when you are in the bullet list / table / etc., and
> disappear when you leave that), then your document will be jumping left
> and right, which would be incredibly annoying :-(

I know the effect.
But from my own experience (if I was too lay to just hide the tool bars)
and from what I have read from others, it is far less annoying then when
the toolbar is docked at the top.
And the advantages compared to docking them at the bottom... well, I
wrote about that already.
But it's a choice. I'm fine with both.

> That's why I thought of the 'context icons'.

Great idea - no objections from me against that. Just some extra work ;-)


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Tim Hardeck Tim Hardeck
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [PATCH] Make the toolbars not popping-up randomly

Hi,

On 11/21/2011 04:40 PM, Cor Nouws wrote:

> Hi Kendy :-)
>
> Jan Holesovsky wrote (21-11-11 16:25)
>
>> The problem with docking them there is that if you let the behavior as
>> it is now (pop-up when you are in the bullet list / table / etc., and
>> disappear when you leave that), then your document will be jumping left
>> and right, which would be incredibly annoying :-(
>
> I know the effect.
> But from my own experience (if I was too lay to just hide the tool
> bars) and from what I have read from others, it is far less annoying
> then when the toolbar is docked at the top.
> And the advantages compared to docking them at the bottom... well, I
> wrote about that already.
> But it's a choice. I'm fine with both.
Yes, I have tried to position the toolbar at the left and right and
unlike at the bottom the page gets rescaled which I would find annoying too.
Another thing is that most people have wide screens in which case the
bottom should be at least as fast accessible as the side so I wouldn't
change the current position.
If the page wouldn't be rescaled though the side would be fine with me too.
>
>> That's why I thought of the 'context icons'.
>
> Great idea - no objections from me against that. Just some extra work ;-)
>
And yes, Kendy's suggestion looks great although there have to be a
fallback for full screen, higher zoom level and similar.

Tim

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