Polish community poll results

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Marcin Popko Marcin Popko
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Polish community poll results

Hello!
I've prepared poll for Polish LibreOffice users - I got 30 answers, not a lot, but it’s new fanbase and it shows us a little about comunnity in Poland.

Most interesting results:
1. 93,3% use LibreOffice at home, 53,3% at work!
2. Over 80% rates LibreOffice more than 8 (in scale 1-10; 1=bad, 10=best)
3. 90% use LibreOffice for more than 5 years and love it's free software.
4. 40% of people avoid open document formats because:
- Others have trouble reading them.
- Because of other people who have to open such a document
- At work, I need the greatest possible compatibility with MS Office
- If I'm supposed to share this somewhere, people look at it and they don't know what it is.
- At work, I can't always. Someone's asking me for a different format.
- to be compatible with other office packages
- Because I need them to be compatible with other offices
- I use Libre to open files created on other programs
- because sometimes I send documents "outside" and I'm afraid other users will have a problem with them
- Due to the requirements of the manager
- Sometimes I have to send a file to people using only MS Office
4. Most of people wants to hear more tips and support in Polish language. There is lack of localized documentation and basic tutorials for modern versions of LibreOffice. I work a little with translating documentation, I'm going to prepare site which can be accessed directly from LibreOffice -> Help -> User Guide. In LO with polish langpack it used to lead to page not found error, now blank site is ready to be filled, will add some stuff there: https://documentation.libreoffice.org/pl/polska-dokumentacja/

I attach link to anwers and results (note: in polish), I have no idea how to translate whole site for you to English.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1KgiK4MumTa11LyaIoisZoMBNInZm3LFQXYpYBg4jrW4/viewanalytics


Pozdrawiam / Regards
Marcin Popko


tel. +48661505678
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Mike Saunders Mike Saunders
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Re: Polish community poll results

Thanks for sharing, Marcin! When you have some documentation ready, let
me know and I can share on our blog...


On 29/05/2020 14:36, Marcin Popko wrote:

> Hello!
> I've prepared poll for Polish LibreOffice users - I got 30 answers, not a lot, but it’s new fanbase and it shows us a little about comunnity in Poland.
>
> Most interesting results:
> 1. 93,3% use LibreOffice at home, 53,3% at work!
> 2. Over 80% rates LibreOffice more than 8 (in scale 1-10; 1=bad, 10=best)
> 3. 90% use LibreOffice for more than 5 years and love it's free software.
> 4. 40% of people avoid open document formats because:
> - Others have trouble reading them.
> - Because of other people who have to open such a document
> - At work, I need the greatest possible compatibility with MS Office
> - If I'm supposed to share this somewhere, people look at it and they don't know what it is.
> - At work, I can't always. Someone's asking me for a different format.
> - to be compatible with other office packages
> - Because I need them to be compatible with other offices
> - I use Libre to open files created on other programs
> - because sometimes I send documents "outside" and I'm afraid other users will have a problem with them
> - Due to the requirements of the manager
> - Sometimes I have to send a file to people using only MS Office
> 4. Most of people wants to hear more tips and support in Polish language. There is lack of localized documentation and basic tutorials for modern versions of LibreOffice. I work a little with translating documentation, I'm going to prepare site which can be accessed directly from LibreOffice -> Help -> User Guide. In LO with polish langpack it used to lead to page not found error, now blank site is ready to be filled, will add some stuff there: https://documentation.libreoffice.org/pl/polska-dokumentacja/
>
> I attach link to anwers and results (note: in polish), I have no idea how to translate whole site for you to English.
> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1KgiK4MumTa11LyaIoisZoMBNInZm3LFQXYpYBg4jrW4/viewanalytics
>
>
> Pozdrawiam / Regards
> Marcin Popko
>
>
> tel. +48661505678
>

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Nigel Verity Nigel Verity
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Re: Polish community poll results

It's both interesting and reassuring to note that there is considerably greater resistance to using open document formats than there is to using LibreOffice. I'm not sure what there is that anyone can do about that. The fact that MS Office formats are proprietary and ODF is not doesn't have any impact on most people. Whenever I've tried to push the adoption of ODF, the usual response is "There  already is a universal standard - MS Office". Obviously it's not "universal" but you can see what they mean.

In my experience most documents sent to me - regardless of format - are to read, not to update. That is a strong case for using PDFs instead of MSO formats but, again, try getting organisations to adopt that approach. Generating a PDF is another procedural step, and it can present a version control problem relative to its source document.

I may be imagining this, but didn't OpenOffice.org at one time ask you select your default document format on first use? While I think ODF should always be the standard for LibreOffice there perhaps needs to be a level or realism in order make it clear to new or potential users that they can continue to use MSO formats if that suits their workflows best.

Regards

Nige

________________________________
From: Mike Saunders <[hidden email]>
Sent: 29 May 2020 14:22
To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Polish community poll results

Thanks for sharing, Marcin! When you have some documentation ready, let
me know and I can share on our blog...


On 29/05/2020 14:36, Marcin Popko wrote:

> Hello!
> I've prepared poll for Polish LibreOffice users - I got 30 answers, not a lot, but it’s new fanbase and it shows us a little about comunnity in Poland.
>
> Most interesting results:
> 1. 93,3% use LibreOffice at home, 53,3% at work!
> 2. Over 80% rates LibreOffice more than 8 (in scale 1-10; 1=bad, 10=best)
> 3. 90% use LibreOffice for more than 5 years and love it's free software.
> 4. 40% of people avoid open document formats because:
> - Others have trouble reading them.
> - Because of other people who have to open such a document
> - At work, I need the greatest possible compatibility with MS Office
> - If I'm supposed to share this somewhere, people look at it and they don't know what it is.
> - At work, I can't always. Someone's asking me for a different format.
> - to be compatible with other office packages
> - Because I need them to be compatible with other offices
> - I use Libre to open files created on other programs
> - because sometimes I send documents "outside" and I'm afraid other users will have a problem with them
> - Due to the requirements of the manager
> - Sometimes I have to send a file to people using only MS Office
> 4. Most of people wants to hear more tips and support in Polish language. There is lack of localized documentation and basic tutorials for modern versions of LibreOffice. I work a little with translating documentation, I'm going to prepare site which can be accessed directly from LibreOffice -> Help -> User Guide. In LO with polish langpack it used to lead to page not found error, now blank site is ready to be filled, will add some stuff there: https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocumentation.libreoffice.org%2Fpl%2Fpolska-dokumentacja%2F&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C380e6d6471b4416a8db708d803d37bb1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637263554128970906&amp;sdata=UetwS801mGF2stu%2BaEdbLuqAhsHGSdNwGN9iAqV8rNg%3D&amp;reserved=0
>
> I attach link to anwers and results (note: in polish), I have no idea how to translate whole site for you to English.
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fforms%2Fd%2F1KgiK4MumTa11LyaIoisZoMBNInZm3LFQXYpYBg4jrW4%2Fviewanalytics&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C380e6d6471b4416a8db708d803d37bb1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637263554128980896&amp;sdata=5gBGOefvGIF1HcBDZ4AeUBiO9iul%2B0cxGR0%2FxPb9TsE%3D&amp;reserved=0
>
>
> Pozdrawiam / Regards
> Marcin Popko
>
>
> tel. +48661505678
>

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Joshua Coppersmith Joshua Coppersmith
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Re: Polish community poll results

I come from both corporate and education backgrounds, and I think you (Nigel) have a very good point; honestly, many (most?) users could use LO on Linux Mint and not even realize they weren't using MSO on Win10. It's hard for those of us in the field to realize that programs are just "typy thingies" for a lot of people. But as soon as they get emails back that people can't open their attachments, it's a problem for them and their IT.

The problem is that the "Save..." "Save as..." paradigm is a poor one. MS Word can also be confusing here. Really there are 3 "saves" for most users: "Save for me (so, can edit)", "Save for others (can edit)", and "Save for others (can't edit)".

Export, publish, save, send... all these get knocked around as ways to express this, and most users are just scared of anything but Save...

I'd suggest something like "Save..." and "Save as...". "Save..." would just overwrite (as the user sees it) the existing file to continue editing in the current format. "Save as..." would immediately present a simple dialog with "Save and start editing on new format..." and "Save as separate file to distribute..." buttons. The second button would lead to basically an export, but it would allow export to MSO, ePub, PDF, or whatever as a separate file, but not switch to that file as the one under edit. There would be a checkbox offering to open the file for inspection after save, and any feature loss warning would be way less scary, since it would be worded to highlight it only applies to the saved copy, not the main document under edit. What is more, it wouldn't depend on a droplist at the bottom to select the format. There would be nice, clear options for ODF, MSO, PDF, and Advanced (under which other options could be chosen), say, as radio buttons, the last of which would be beside a droplist.

--Joshua
________________________________
From: Nigel Verity <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 9:42 AM
To: Mike Saunders <[hidden email]>; [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Polish community poll results

It's both interesting and reassuring to note that there is considerably greater resistance to using open document formats than there is to using LibreOffice. I'm not sure what there is that anyone can do about that. The fact that MS Office formats are proprietary and ODF is not doesn't have any impact on most people. Whenever I've tried to push the adoption of ODF, the usual response is "There  already is a universal standard - MS Office". Obviously it's not "universal" but you can see what they mean.

In my experience most documents sent to me - regardless of format - are to read, not to update. That is a strong case for using PDFs instead of MSO formats but, again, try getting organisations to adopt that approach. Generating a PDF is another procedural step, and it can present a version control problem relative to its source document.

I may be imagining this, but didn't OpenOffice.org at one time ask you select your default document format on first use? While I think ODF should always be the standard for LibreOffice there perhaps needs to be a level or realism in order make it clear to new or potential users that they can continue to use MSO formats if that suits their workflows best.

Regards

Nige

________________________________
From: Mike Saunders <[hidden email]>
Sent: 29 May 2020 14:22
To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Polish community poll results

Thanks for sharing, Marcin! When you have some documentation ready, let
me know and I can share on our blog...


On 29/05/2020 14:36, Marcin Popko wrote:

> Hello!
> I've prepared poll for Polish LibreOffice users - I got 30 answers, not a lot, but it’s new fanbase and it shows us a little about comunnity in Poland.
>
> Most interesting results:
> 1. 93,3% use LibreOffice at home, 53,3% at work!
> 2. Over 80% rates LibreOffice more than 8 (in scale 1-10; 1=bad, 10=best)
> 3. 90% use LibreOffice for more than 5 years and love it's free software.
> 4. 40% of people avoid open document formats because:
> - Others have trouble reading them.
> - Because of other people who have to open such a document
> - At work, I need the greatest possible compatibility with MS Office
> - If I'm supposed to share this somewhere, people look at it and they don't know what it is.
> - At work, I can't always. Someone's asking me for a different format.
> - to be compatible with other office packages
> - Because I need them to be compatible with other offices
> - I use Libre to open files created on other programs
> - because sometimes I send documents "outside" and I'm afraid other users will have a problem with them
> - Due to the requirements of the manager
> - Sometimes I have to send a file to people using only MS Office
> 4. Most of people wants to hear more tips and support in Polish language. There is lack of localized documentation and basic tutorials for modern versions of LibreOffice. I work a little with translating documentation, I'm going to prepare site which can be accessed directly from LibreOffice -> Help -> User Guide. In LO with polish langpack it used to lead to page not found error, now blank site is ready to be filled, will add some stuff there: https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocumentation.libreoffice.org%2Fpl%2Fpolska-dokumentacja%2F&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C380e6d6471b4416a8db708d803d37bb1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637263554128970906&amp;sdata=UetwS801mGF2stu%2BaEdbLuqAhsHGSdNwGN9iAqV8rNg%3D&amp;reserved=0
>
> I attach link to anwers and results (note: in polish), I have no idea how to translate whole site for you to English.
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fforms%2Fd%2F1KgiK4MumTa11LyaIoisZoMBNInZm3LFQXYpYBg4jrW4%2Fviewanalytics&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C380e6d6471b4416a8db708d803d37bb1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637263554128980896&amp;sdata=5gBGOefvGIF1HcBDZ4AeUBiO9iul%2B0cxGR0%2FxPb9TsE%3D&amp;reserved=0
>
>
> Pozdrawiam / Regards
> Marcin Popko
>
>
> tel. +48661505678
>

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Mike Saunders Mike Saunders
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Re: Polish community poll results

Hi,

On 31/05/2020 05:40, Joshua Coppersmith wrote:
>
> The problem is that the "Save..." "Save as..." paradigm is a poor one. MS Word can also be confusing here. Really there are 3 "saves" for most users: "Save for me (so, can edit)", "Save for others (can edit)", and "Save for others (can't edit)".

This is an interesting discussion: I've come across so many people who
always save in .doc/.docx format in LibreOffice, even when they're not
sharing files with MS Office users. They just believe it's the
"standard" and don't pay attention to (or even know about) ODF.

Then they complain that tiny things change or move between saves and
loads, and I have to explain that for working in LibreOffice, it's best
to use its native format, always, and only use .docx etc. when
absolutely necessary.

So I like that idea of "Save for others", or a similar variant. Maybe
something to raise with the design community...

Mike

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Marcin Popko Marcin Popko
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Re: Polish community poll results

I’m glad that I begin that debate.

I also used to not pay attention in which format I save documents and I think that many users don’t do it too. People are like electrical current, they go trough minimal resistance. "I don’t know how it works so I’ll go trough easiest way/the way I already know.”. I’ll telll more: People in my university will probably pirate MSO than use FLOSS software - it is my mission from the beginning of working here to show them there is alternative, free and legal way.

If we show users they don’t seriously need to save files in .docx, is more likely than they will save it in ODF. Now it’s like, "ohh they want me to use ODF, what the hell is it? I don’t now if I want to use it”.


Pozdrawiam / Regards
Marcin Popko

tel. +48661505678

> Wiadomość napisana przez Mike Saunders <[hidden email]> w dniu 31.05.2020, o godz. 10:11:
>
> Hi,
>
> On 31/05/2020 05:40, Joshua Coppersmith wrote:
>>
>> The problem is that the "Save..." "Save as..." paradigm is a poor one. MS Word can also be confusing here. Really there are 3 "saves" for most users: "Save for me (so, can edit)", "Save for others (can edit)", and "Save for others (can't edit)".
>
> This is an interesting discussion: I've come across so many people who
> always save in .doc/.docx format in LibreOffice, even when they're not
> sharing files with MS Office users. They just believe it's the
> "standard" and don't pay attention to (or even know about) ODF.
>
> Then they complain that tiny things change or move between saves and
> loads, and I have to explain that for working in LibreOffice, it's best
> to use its native format, always, and only use .docx etc. when
> absolutely necessary.
>
> So I like that idea of "Save for others", or a similar variant. Maybe
> something to raise with the design community...
>
> Mike
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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