Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

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Allen Pulsifer Allen Pulsifer
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Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

Greetings All,

Some of you will remember me as a long time member of the OpenOffice.org
community.  In fact, back in the day, it was sometimes just myself and
Michael Meeks who were openly complaining on the OOo mailing list about
Sun's handling of the "community" :-)

I'm writing today about what is going on over at the Apache project.  When I
heard Oracle was donating the OpenOffice code to the Apache project, I
headed over there to see what was going on.  I offer this brief report to
bring everyone up to speed:

- According to officers of the Apache Software Foundation, Oracle donated
OpenOffice to the ASF by executing the ASF's standard copyright grant.  This
grant allows the ASF to release the OpenOffice code under the Apache
License.

- The ASF however has a process to accept a project.  The OpenOffice project
is now in the proposal stage.  If accepted, it will join the Apache
Incubator and become a "podling", which is basically a
project-in-development.  During the podling stage, the project would be
expected to complete the steps needed to become a full ASF project.  Among
other requirements, the podling project has to review the copyright history
of all code to ensure it has a clean "title" and is or can be licensed under
the Apache License.  If it completes that process, it then becomes a full
Apache project.  See
https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/incubation_at_apache_what_s

- While the code donation was made by Oracle, the primary champion in the
effort to get the code accepted as is Apache Project is IBM.  Let's have no
illusions or delusions about this.  IBM has a self-interested motive in
championing this project.  Basically, IBM would like to setup a community
where both it and other contributors make contributions under the Apache
License, and then IBM would take some or all of those contributions and use
them in its proprietary products which includes for example IBM Lotus
Symphony.  The Apache License specifically allows this.  In fact, the Apache
License allows anyone to take the code and use it in their own project, open
source or closed source.  In the Apache world, that is considered a feature
not a bug.  The ASF would like to see as many people using the code as
possible, and for that reason, their license is as liberal as possible,
allowing anyone to use the code.  That is exactly the reason that IBM is
championing this as an Apache Project, rather than a LGPL project.

And that brings me (almost) to the point of this email.  Any code
contributed to the Apache OpenOffice project could be used by anyone,
including The Document Foundation, which can take the code, integrate it
into LibreOffice, and release it under the LGPL.  Sounds like a good deal,
huh?

Here's the rub.  IBM, as I mentioned, is doing this for self-interested
reasons.  I would like to propose the members of LibreOffice community get
involved in this for similarly self-interested reasons.

I understand there are some bad feelings toward IBM.  Basically, there is
the perception that IBM has been taking OpenOffice code all of these years
and contributing little back to the OpenOffice community.  That is probably
true.  As far as I can see, IBM has at least been taking much more than it
has given back.  I'm not sure that can continue though, because as the
champion of the proposed Apache OpenOffice project, IBM is going to have to
contribute.

So you might say though, why not just sit back, let IBM make contributions
to Apache OpenOffice, and then we'll just cherry pick what we want for
LibreOffice.  Well that would certainly work, but I don't think it would
work as well as getting involved.

There is also another player in this, and that is the Apache Software
Foundation.  The ASF is an honorable organization with a long track record
in open source and they are dedicated to fostering a community.  In the ASF,
anyone can contribute.  Contributions and participation are made by
individuals, not by or on behalf of companies or organizations.  The
community determines the direction of the project.  Membership in the
community is based on merit, which is measured not just by code
contributions, but by anything that supports the project, which could also
include documentation, testing, bug reports, etc.

So while the LibreOffice could just sit back and cherry-pick the project, if
its members get involved, they can help determine the direction of the
project, ensuring that the project direction and design decision are
compatible with LibreOffice and have the maximum value to LibreOffice.  The
ASF has no problems with this--in fact, they encourage it.  Just as IBM is
getting involved in an Apache OpenOffice project because they want to use
the code in their products, the ASF will welcome TDF members getting
involved for the same self-interested reason, to use the code in
LibreOffice.

Critically, at this stage in the process, everyone has a "free pass" to get
involved.  Normally, once the project is up and running, you would have to
demonstrate your merit before you can join the project.  But for the next
few days, while the project is in the proposal stage, the gates are wide
open--anyone can join as an initial member.
 
So here is my suggestion: I propose the everyone here head over to the
Apache Incubator and join the proposal as an initial member.  To do that,
simply:

1. Go to http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal
2. Click "Login" at the top.
3. Follow the directions to create an account.
4. After your account is setup, go back to
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal and if you still see
"Login" at the top of the page, click on it and login using the account you
just created.
5. Go back to http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal and click
"Edit (GUI)".
6. Scroll down to the "Initial Committers" table, right-click on the last
row, select Row -> Insert After, then add you name to the table.  Note: the
"Initial Committers" are the initial project members.  While "Committers"
imply code contributors, it is not just limited to that--anyone can be a
committer.
7. In the Comment field at the bottom of the page (below the text editor),
enter "added self to Initial Committers", then click "Save Changes" above
the text editor.
8. Check the page to make sure your name appears.
 
That's it.  It does not obligate you to make any code contributions, but it
will get you in on the ground floor and allow you to participate in the
direction of the project.  I just did it myself.

Some of you may have noticed that Greg Stein, a member of the Apache
Software Foundation Board of Directors has joined this list and offered to
answer any questions.  Please feel free to ask him about anything that is on
your mind.  He would be a better person to answer, since I'm new to all this
Apache stuff myself :-)

Best Regards,

Allen



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Greg Stein Greg Stein
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Re: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 22:06, Allen Pulsifer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>...
> Some of you may have noticed that Greg Stein, a member of the Apache
> Software Foundation Board of Directors has joined this list and offered to
> answer any questions.  Please feel free to ask him about anything that is on
> your mind.  He would be a better person to answer, since I'm new to all this
> Apache stuff myself :-)

Thanks for the great email, Allen, and for the shout-out. Yes, I'm
here listening. Most people at Apache are not familiar with this
community, and so I feel it is important to listen and lurk here to
get a better understanding. Sure... I can also answer questions, and
would be more than happy to do that. In any discussion threads that
may pop up, about the Apache work, I'll also attempt to fill in blanks
where I see them.

Cheers,
-g

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Olav Dahlum Olav Dahlum
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Re: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

On 04/06/11 06:21, Greg Stein wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 22:06, Allen Pulsifer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> ...
>> Some of you may have noticed that Greg Stein, a member of the Apache
>> Software Foundation Board of Directors has joined this list and offered to
>> answer any questions.  Please feel free to ask him about anything that is on
>> your mind.  He would be a better person to answer, since I'm new to all this
>> Apache stuff myself :-)
>
> Thanks for the great email, Allen, and for the shout-out. Yes, I'm
> here listening. Most people at Apache are not familiar with this
> community, and so I feel it is important to listen and lurk here to
> get a better understanding. Sure... I can also answer questions, and
> would be more than happy to do that. In any discussion threads that
> may pop up, about the Apache work, I'll also attempt to fill in blanks
> where I see them.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>

Most of us do indeed like to retain the ownership ourselves, but I don't
personally have any problems with reusing my translations etc in software.

People take great pride in contributing and want to be credited for what
they achieve. You might want to clarify the situation for the sceptics,
who don't want their code lost in some proprietary project not acknowledging
their work, but rather claiming it as their own.

Regards,
Olav Dahlum

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Tor Lillqvist Tor Lillqvist
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Allen Pulsifer
> So here is my suggestion: I propose the everyone here head over to the
> Apache Incubator and join the proposal as an initial member.  

Well, at least for me the problem is:

I *work* on LibreOffice. I f I wasn't paid to do it, I doubt I would touch it. Or maybe I would, hard to know. As far as I have understood, "membership" in ASF poslings/projects (or in the organisation itself) is for *individuals*. I am strongly opposed to the idea that my employer would force me to join some organisation. That is against basic human rights. (That holds for TDF, too.)

And the other way, even if I wanted to contribute to the eventual OOo podling at ASF, and then later presumably OOo project (or whatever the term is for what a podling becomes when it graduates), I obviously can't contribute stuff that I have done on my employer's time to which my employer holds copyright. Or can I? I am not a lawyer nor do I have any wish to get involved in legal battles.

And finally, whether it would make any sense from the technical point of view for LibreOffice contributors to even try to participate in OOo at ASF depends very much on what actually ends up there, and in what direction it is taken by the presumed main driving force, IBM. For all we know, it might be that the code that is eventually dumped in ASF's SVN (!) is a subset that doesn't even build, and then IBM starts adding its own hitherto proprietary stuff including build mechanisms that makes it into a completely different beast than what we are used to. I suspect lots of Java is involved, and that is not necessarily that popular around here. As if understanding and using the "old" OOo build mechanisms which have been somewhat adapted at LO wasn't hard enough.

--tml



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Jesús Corrius Jesús Corrius
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

> And finally, whether it would make any sense from the technical point of view for LibreOffice contributors to even try to participate in OOo at ASF depends very much on what actually ends up there, and in what direction it is taken by the presumed main driving force, IBM. For all we know, it might be that the code that is eventually dumped in ASF's SVN (!) is a subset that doesn't even build, and then IBM starts adding its own hitherto proprietary stuff including build mechanisms that makes it into a completely different beast than what we are used to. I suspect lots of Java is involved, and that is not necessarily that popular around here. As if understanding and using the "old" OOo build mechanisms which have been somewhat adapted at LO wasn't hard enough.

Good point, Tor. Is the source code available somewhere already?
I wouldn't join any Open Source project if I can't see the source code first :)

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Pantelis  Koukousoulas Pantelis Koukousoulas
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

2011/6/4 Jesús Corrius <[hidden email]>:
> As if understanding and using the "old" OOo build mechanisms which have been
> somewhat adapted at LO wasn't hard enough.

As a user (with just a tiny contribution) I really wish that OO.o
would just die already.

It is not "just" that the current community are much more friendly and
open to contributions
now, it is also the codebase that is starting to become more sane and
organized / accessible.

In a while, it may even build without requiring your own Cray
supercomputer and two PhDs.
Why would people want to go back to the java-dominated "obscure build
system land" that
has cost so much to the project already?

With TDF I think LibreOffice can make the equivalent of Netscape ->
Firefox transition.
For me the sane thing for ASF is to either donate the OO.o
name/trademarks in turn to
TDF, so that maybe we can have the equivalent of gcc -> egcs -> gcc
migration and
the existing marketing efforts for OO.org don't go to waste, or just
drop the whole thing
and let it die in peace.

I hope even IBM can see the light and start contributing to
LibreOffice instead of
trying to maintain the ugly beast that was OO.o on its own, or trying
to divide the
community (and thus generating bad publicity for both IBM and Oracle in the end,
see LWN).

Go Libre Office! We users love you! :) :)

---
Pantelis

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Eduardo Alexandre Eduardo Alexandre
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Jesús Corrius
Hi!

If I understand correctly:
What is developed by the Apache license can be "used" at LibreOffice but
what is done by LibreOffice can not be used by OpenOffice as OpenOffice
would move to offer the principles of under the GPL.

Thus, the suggestion would be to join efforts to OpenOffice under the Apache
License and "used" what we want to use LibreOffice GPL?

Am I wrong or so workers would be free for companies that want to "pack "
the OpenOffice and sell it?

I would understand this point...

Greats,
____________________
Eduardo Alexandre Gula
LibreOffice Brazil



2011/6/4 Jesús Corrius <[hidden email]>

> > And finally, whether it would make any sense from the technical point of
> view for LibreOffice contributors to even try to participate in OOo at ASF
> depends very much on what actually ends up there, and in what direction it
> is taken by the presumed main driving force, IBM. For all we know, it might
> be that the code that is eventually dumped in ASF's SVN (!) is a subset that
> doesn't even build, and then IBM starts adding its own hitherto proprietary
> stuff including build mechanisms that makes it into a completely different
> beast than what we are used to. I suspect lots of Java is involved, and that
> is not necessarily that popular around here. As if understanding and using
> the "old" OOo build mechanisms which have been somewhat adapted at LO wasn't
> hard enough.
>
> Good point, Tor. Is the source code available somewhere already?
> I wouldn't join any Open Source project if I can't see the source code
> first :)
>
> --
> Jesús Corrius <[hidden email]>
> Document Foundation founding member
> Mobile: +34 661 11 38 26
> Skype: jcorrius | Twitter: @jcorrius
>
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> deleted
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>

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Michael Münch Michael Münch
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Tor Lillqvist
Hi,


Am Samstag, den 04.06.2011, 01:30 -0600 schrieb Tor Lillqvist:
> > So here is my suggestion: I propose the everyone here head over to the
> > Apache Incubator and join the proposal as an initial member.  
>
> Well, at least for me the problem is:
>
> I *work* on LibreOffice.

although I am not a real contributor to LibreOffice so that my decisions
do not make a difference here are some of my thoughts from a completely
different perspective.

I am not paid by anyone in this field, I have no interested in going
that road, I have no business around Office Suites, do not offer
trainings or am engaged in any consulting.

So every minute I spend on LibreOffice is because of fun with no hard
revenue in sight and if it is for fun at least for me it is important
with whom to work together.

Do I trust the TDF/SC? uff, kind of
Do I trust the ASF? absolutely
Do I trust Novell/RedHat/Canonical/.. a bit
Do I trust IBM? ...
Do I trust Oracle? absolutely not

The nice thing about the LGPL and copyleft is that it lowers the need
for trusting the other involved parties.

As I have no history with the OO.o project, I may not be correct, but I
miss IBMs enthusiastic approach to a free software office suite
extending what they need to develop symphony on that base. I guess they
could have released a lot of patches under the apache license if they
were just reluctant to the LGPL. So I have some doubts that the level
between what to put in the core office, the new apache openoffice, and
what to keep only for their closed source product on top of it is much
in favor of the apache part.

And I feel like it is not only important what the actual situation is
(an ASF incubator proposal) but even more so how it got there. The
situation would have been totally different for me if the OO.o community
council would have approached the ASF and made this proposal and after
that Oracle would have agreed and IBM hopped in. This would have been
community driven. This smells like some corporate business plan with a
nice apache painting.

The situation now is that Oracle and IBM did some deal behind closed
doors, where I am pretty sure their arguments and expectations to decide
going to the ASF are not identical with what is written on the ASF wiki.
Although this is the unfortunate situation that you can hardly prove it
the one way or the other.

So for me to join the proposal feels like becoming one of the worst paid
IBM employees.

But whatever, the ball is already rolling and everything will go the way
it has to go. We will see the result in some months/years.

And yeah, everyone will decide different depending on who pays him, what
if any personal business interests he has in the office field, his
political/ideological vision or just his gut feeling. Nothing wrong with
that and nothing to try to change or influence.

Regards,
Michael


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Gianluca Turconi-4 Gianluca Turconi-4
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

Michael Münch ha scritto:
> So for me to join the proposal feels like becoming one of the worst paid
> IBM employees.

BTW, there would be some concerns about what kind of community will be
the new Apache OpenOffice one too. At least, I have them.

A development community, as I suppose, or a end users' community too?

I was there, in 2000/1, when Sun had many doubts about releasing a open
source *product* in binary form.

Now, I feel we're at the same point under a Apache license. None, but
the Community (What community?), would have a *real* interest in
releasing a full featured open source *product* in binary form.

Maybe, I'm wrong. Maybe, I'm not.

Regards,

Gianluca
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Allen Pulsifer Allen Pulsifer
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RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Allen Pulsifer
Hello All,

I'm going to try to address as many of the concerns raised as I can in one
email.

I'm not suggesting that anyone go work for IBM.  In fact, I'm suggesting
just the opposite; I'm suggesting that we all work together to get IBM
working for us.

Here's the deal.  IBM is the main proponent of the proposed Apache
OpenOffice project.  They are doing this in their own self-interest.  They
want to get Apache Licensed contributions that they can use in their
proprietary products.

However, the OpenOffice code has been donated to the Apache Software
Foundation, not to IBM.  While IBM may want to exclusively run the project
over at the ASF, if we want to get involved, the ASF is not going to allow
IBM to dominate.  We will have a say in how the Apache OpenOffice project
evolves.

I don't know what vision IBM has for the project.  I don't know what code
contribution they are going to make--I'm certain they will make some, but I
don't know what they will be.  I don't know what contributions members of
the LibreOffice community will or will not want to make.

I do know this however.  There is currently an open invitation for us to get
involved.  If we get involved, we can have a say in with direction of the
project.  We can ensure that direction of the project provides the maximum
benefit for LibreOffice, which includes any contributions from IBM.
Basically, we can get IBM working for us.

If we wait however, we risk being locked out.  The open invitation is get
involved is only valid for during the incubation proposal stage.  After
that, we will need "prove our merit" and approval to become a member.  So if
you sign up now, it is no risk and no obligation.  IBM will be contributing
as little or as much to the project as they want.  They will be contributing
some, and holding back some to use only in their proprietary products.  The
TDF community can do exactly the same thing--it can contribute some, while
holding back some for LibreOffice only.  This again can and will be worked
out as the project evolves.

So what I would like to see is an many LibreOffice people at the table as
possible.  If possible, I would like to see LibreOffice people dominating
the Apache OpenOffice community to get as much out of the project as we can.

But the time to jump in is now.  We can't wait.

Allen



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Eduardo Alexandre Eduardo Alexandre
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RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

Hi,

In my opinion, after all history involving OpenOffice, the ideal would be that
this code was donated to the TDF. Everything under the GPL.

With the software under the Apache license, we can not "work directly" in
LibreOffice because they can not use our effort due to license GPL-Apache.

Thus, we must direct our efforts to the software under the Apache license
and "reuse" what we want to LibreOffice.

But it will also allow our volunteer work is used by large companies to "create
" an unopened product for sale. We will be working for free.

This is interesting? What is the advantage for the "community"?

I think the "TDF members" could express any comment with the positives and
negatives points.


____________________
Eduardo Alexandre Gula

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Gianluca Turconi-4 Gianluca Turconi-4
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RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Allen Pulsifer
Allen Pulsifer ha scritto:
> So what I would like to see is an many LibreOffice people at the table as
> possible.  If possible, I would like to see LibreOffice people dominating
> the Apache OpenOffice community to get as much out of the project as we can.

Firstly, I've to say that I'm happy Oracle hasn't killed OOo and *will*
donate even its brand to Apache Foundation.

Then, as a volunteer, I simply see a duplication of efforts for whatever
TDF volunteers in this proposal.

What TDF can get for Apache project, it can be already taken thanks to
Apache License 2.0.

Any further contribution to that project has really no sense from a TDF
volunteer's point of view. Especially if the volunteer is not a developer.

Yes, there may be coordination between TDF and Apache OOo development
("I give you something, you give me something"), but a direct
contribution to Apache OOo is rather risky ("I give you something and...
ehi, you have no duty to give me something back!" according to AFL v. 2.0).

That isn't, really, what I want from a *free software* project.

Plain and simple. :)

Regards,

Gianluca
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Eduardo Alexandre Eduardo Alexandre
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RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

2011/6/4 Gianluca Turconi <[hidden email]>

> Yes, there may be coordination between TDF and Apache OOo development ("I
> give you something, you give me something"), but a direct contribution to
> Apache OOo is rather risky ("I give you something and... ehi, you have no
> duty to give me something back!" according to AFL v. 2.0).
>
> That isn't, really, what I want from a *free software* project.
>
> Plain and simple. :)
>


+1
o/

Eduardo Alexandre

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Simos Xenitellis Simos Xenitellis
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RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Eduardo Alexandre
On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 4:31 PM, Eduardo Alexandre <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> In my opinion, after all history involving OpenOffice, the ideal would be that
> this code was donated to the TDF. Everything under the GPL.
>
> With the software under the Apache license, we can not "work directly" in
> LibreOffice because they can not use our effort due to license GPL-Apache.
>
> Thus, we must direct our efforts to the software under the Apache license
> and "reuse" what we want to LibreOffice.
>
> But it will also allow our volunteer work is used by large companies to "create
> " an unopened product for sale. We will be working for free.
>
> This is interesting? What is the advantage for the "community"?
>

IBM already has an OpenOffice product called IBM Lotus Symphony,
http://www.ibm.com/software/lotus/symphony
Although based on OpenOffice, it is closed-source due to a special
deal with Sun.
If you try to download it, you are presented with a typical restricting EULA.

I believe that IBM, pushing for Apache OpenOffice, want to get the
best of the work of the community in order to enhance their product,
and start selling to business customers.
IBM employees claimed that they will make parts of Lotus Symphony
available to Apache OpenOffice, however it is not clear what is in
Lotus Symphony and what will make it into Apache OpenOffice.

With Apache OpenOffice, IBM would probably get an unfair advantage to
sell their proprietary OpenOffice. And this would be bad for the
community.

Just like the Linux kernel is copyleft (GPL) and everyone contributes
to a single project, OpenOffice/LibreOffice should be copyleft, so
that all work goes to one place and is able grow fast.

Simos

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Gianluca Turconi-4 Gianluca Turconi-4
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RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

Simos Xenitellis ha scritto:
> Just like the Linux kernel is copyleft (GPL) and everyone contributes
> to a single project, OpenOffice/LibreOffice should be copyleft, so
> that all work goes to one place and is able grow fast.

BTW, LibreOffice code is even *LGPL*/MPL, enough corporation friendly, I
suppose. :-)

Regards,

Gianluca
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timotheonb timotheonb
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RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Simos Xenitellis
Hi Everyone,
This is my first post on this discussion list.  I am not into the deep
things of licensing, but I have kept an eye open to understand it
better.  This discussion list is helping me understand the whole
situation better.
I may be wrong in my opinion, so I am open to change.
I believe that a completely open source project like this one is
necessary to keep things clear.  By this, I mean, that keeping a
licensing model clearly open source where businesses will not be
benefitting without contributing is important.
By setting a contrast with the two extremes - proprietary/OpenSource -
it helps me to understand the whole concept better.  If we keep
LibreOffice as it is, in my opinion, will be better.  It will represent
the extreme end of the spectrum helping keep tensions up so that the
in-between licensing models will have something to base themselves on
(i.e. Apache, etc.).
Conclusion: I vote for LibreOffice to remain as it is.
I have not wanted to post before as I needed to get a little more
familiar with this community.  Since then I have noticed that various
kinds of comments are made freely on this forum, so I am feeling more at
liberty (LIBRE!!!) to comment.
Please correct me if I am wrong,

regards to all
timotheonb


Em 04-06-2011 11:21, Simos Xenitellis escreveu:

> On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 4:31 PM, Eduardo Alexandre<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> In my opinion, after all history involving OpenOffice, the ideal would be that
>> this code was donated to the TDF. Everything under the GPL.
>>
>> With the software under the Apache license, we can not "work directly" in
>> LibreOffice because they can not use our effort due to license GPL-Apache.
>>
>> Thus, we must direct our efforts to the software under the Apache license
>> and "reuse" what we want to LibreOffice.
>>
>> But it will also allow our volunteer work is used by large companies to "create
>> " an unopened product for sale. We will be working for free.
>>
>> This is interesting? What is the advantage for the "community"?
>>
>
> IBM already has an OpenOffice product called IBM Lotus Symphony,
> http://www.ibm.com/software/lotus/symphony
> Although based on OpenOffice, it is closed-source due to a special
> deal with Sun.
> If you try to download it, you are presented with a typical restricting EULA.
>
> I believe that IBM, pushing for Apache OpenOffice, want to get the
> best of the work of the community in order to enhance their product,
> and start selling to business customers.
> IBM employees claimed that they will make parts of Lotus Symphony
> available to Apache OpenOffice, however it is not clear what is in
> Lotus Symphony and what will make it into Apache OpenOffice.
>
> With Apache OpenOffice, IBM would probably get an unfair advantage to
> sell their proprietary OpenOffice. And this would be bad for the
> community.
>
> Just like the Linux kernel is copyleft (GPL) and everyone contributes
> to a single project, OpenOffice/LibreOffice should be copyleft, so
> that all work goes to one place and is able grow fast.
>
> Simos
>


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Zaphod Feeblejocks Zaphod Feeblejocks
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RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

Is it possible to allow Oracle to donate to Apache and then for TDF to go to
Apache and say "Please let us have that?"

Oracle are code-dumping because the community left them standing alone.
Oracle are acting as generous benefactors but may end up splitting the OS
community over this one.  We do not need two near-identical office suites.
The duplication in effort is not worth it.

The option of LibO becoming a customised build of Apache OO, where we take
from them and add our own things becomes a maintenance nightmare.  LibO 3.4
already has enough clear differences from OOo 3.4 that make the idea of
moving code modules back and forth difficult.  There will be a lot of
re-engineering simply to keep things working and much potential to introduce
bugs.

>From a marketing point of view, the appearance of yet another OpenOffice is
not helpful.  We now have OpenOffice.org, Star Office, Oracle Open Office,
BrOffice, Go-oo, Apache OpenOffice, IBM Symphony, NeoOffice, Euro Office
and, of course, LibreOffice.  At least when everything else was a build of
OOo with some addons, it could be understood.  When TDF was set up, it was a
case of everything else being a build of LibO with addons, plus
OpenOffice.org - and we hoped either Oracle would code-dump in our
direction, or just go away.

When TDF was set up, there was an invitation to Oracle to take part.  They
declined.  This invitation should be passed on to Apache.  They don't need
the hassle of maintaining a parallel project - especially one that the wider
community has dropped.

ZF

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Eduardo Alexandre Eduardo Alexandre
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RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

Oracle has rejected the invitation e. .. passed the code to Apache!
Something motivated move to Apache and not to TDF.

The invitation for Oracle can be done for the Apache?
If yes, could be on the condition of maintaining a software under the GPL?


____________________
Eduardo Alexandre



2011/6/4 Zaphod Feeblejocks <[hidden email]>

> Is it possible to allow Oracle to donate to Apache and then for TDF to go
> to
> Apache and say "Please let us have that?"
>
> Oracle are code-dumping because the community left them standing alone.
> Oracle are acting as generous benefactors but may end up splitting the OS
> community over this one.  We do not need two near-identical office suites.
> The duplication in effort is not worth it.
>
> The option of LibO becoming a customised build of Apache OO, where we take
> from them and add our own things becomes a maintenance nightmare.  LibO 3.4
> already has enough clear differences from OOo 3.4 that make the idea of
> moving code modules back and forth difficult.  There will be a lot of
> re-engineering simply to keep things working and much potential to
> introduce
> bugs.
>
> >From a marketing point of view, the appearance of yet another OpenOffice
> is
> not helpful.  We now have OpenOffice.org, Star Office, Oracle Open Office,
> BrOffice, Go-oo, Apache OpenOffice, IBM Symphony, NeoOffice, Euro Office
> and, of course, LibreOffice.  At least when everything else was a build of
> OOo with some addons, it could be understood.  When TDF was set up, it was
> a
> case of everything else being a build of LibO with addons, plus
> OpenOffice.org - and we hoped either Oracle would code-dump in our
> direction, or just go away.
>
> When TDF was set up, there was an invitation to Oracle to take part.  They
> declined.  This invitation should be passed on to Apache.  They don't need
> the hassle of maintaining a parallel project - especially one that the
> wider
> community has dropped.
>
> ZF
>
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Ian Lynch Ian Lynch
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RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Zaphod Feeblejocks
On 4 June 2011 16:47, Zaphod Feeblejocks <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Is it possible to allow Oracle to donate to Apache and then for TDF to go
> to
> Apache and say "Please let us have that?"
>

It's a good question. I suspect not now - OOo is not yet even accepted into
the incubator at Apache. Depends on what Oracle lawyers built into any
conditions. It could be possible later down the line but I doubt it would be
very sensible for someone at Apache to broadcast that intention in earshot
of oracle ;-)

Oracle are code-dumping because the community left them standing alone.
> Oracle are acting as generous benefactors but may end up splitting the OS
> community over this one.  We do not need two near-identical office suites.
> The duplication in effort is not worth it.
>

That is why we need to see if it is possible to cooperate such that those
with a philosphical aversion to contributing to the Apache licensed code
don't have to yet still achieve some coherence in the code base itself. It
seems inevitable that there will be a copyleft product overseen by TDF and
an ASF licensed product. Question is whether we can cooperate effectively
enough to keep the code mostly common. Honest answer is I'm not sure but I
don't see any alternative.

The option of LibO becoming a customised build of Apache OO, where we take
> from them and add our own things becomes a maintenance nightmare.  LibO 3.4
> already has enough clear differences from OOo 3.4 that make the idea of
> moving code modules back and forth difficult.  There will be a lot of
> re-engineering simply to keep things working and much potential to
> introduce
> bugs.
>

So life is complicated ;-)

>
> >From a marketing point of view, the appearance of yet another OpenOffice
> is
> not helpful.  We now have OpenOffice.org, Star Office, Oracle Open Office,
> BrOffice, Go-oo, Apache OpenOffice, IBM Symphony, NeoOffice, Euro Office
> and, of course, LibreOffice.


Some would say that was a benefit of open source - at least they all are
100% odf compliant.


>  At least when everything else was a build of
> OOo with some addons, it could be understood.  When TDF was set up, it was
> a
> case of everything else being a build of LibO with addons, plus
> OpenOffice.org - and we hoped either Oracle would code-dump in our
> direction, or just go away.
>
> When TDF was set up, there was an invitation to Oracle to take part.  They
> declined.  This invitation should be passed on to Apache.  They don't need
> the hassle of maintaining a parallel project - especially one that the
> wider
> community has dropped.
>

I suppose that it might be possible to persuade Apache to just allow the
code to die and carry on from the LO code base - probably that loses IBM
(some will say that is a good thing) - but I can't really see that happening
in the short term because IBM and others will support that code and Apache
has no remit to deny one project over another.

>
> ZF
>
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Michael Meeks Michael Meeks
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Allen Pulsifer
Hi Allen,

On Sat, 2011-06-04 at 09:08 -0400, Allen Pulsifer wrote:
> If we wait however, we risk being locked out.

        That is what Rob's blog tries to imply. My conversations with various
key Apache leaders suggest that, on the contrary, their governance will
-never- lock people out; it is guaranteed to be open to all
contributors. Ergo - there will always be a place for new guys to be
come committers, PMC members etc.

        Indeed, the incubation cannot succeed without a level of diversity that
only LibreOffice has currently.

> So if you sign up now, it is no risk and no obligation.

        The risk is, that we give credibility to an incredibly divisive move,
and loose the clarity and unity we have currently around rejecting this
hostile action :-) Beyond that I agree.

> They will be contributing some, and holding back some to use only
> in their proprietary products.  The TDF community can do exactly
> the same thing--it can contribute some, while holding back some
> for LibreOffice only.

        The problem is, that very much of our work is inter-dependent, and we
want people to be able to work all over the code, cleaning, translating
and fixing it. It would suck giant rocks (through a straw) to say:

        "no copy-left lovers need think of working on X Y or Z
         big pieces of the code - since we want to license
         changes to these on to IBM (via Apache)" :-)

        At least - I don't want to just push the division down into the
code-base, excluding people from lots of it (and of course throwing away
our changes to those pieces).

> So what I would like to see is an many LibreOffice people at the
> table as possible.  If possible, I would like to see LibreOffice
> people dominating the Apache OpenOffice community to get as much
> out of the project as we can.

        My feeling is that incubator / 'initial committers' lists aside, the
people doing the work will get the positions of authority: whatever Rob
suggests to try to encourage people to sign up now.

> But the time to jump in is now.  We can't wait.

        I have entirely the opposite view; it would be unfortunate to get
involved now - and send an unhelpful message; still - everyone should do
as they think best.

        Thanks :-)

                Michael.

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