Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

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Augustine Souza Augustine Souza
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

On 6/6/11, Greg Stein <[hidden email]> wrote:
...
> the project? Bob can say whatever he'd like on his blog.
>
...
>
> In any case... stop assuming that what *one* person says is
> representative of the entire (ASF) community. That simply isn't true.
>
...

That blog is responsible for quite a lot of ill-will. Here's a quote
from the end of the blog:
"I have a vision of a free, high quality productivity suite, one based
on open standards and open source, one that doesn’t treat the web and
mobile and tablet form factors as a design afterthought,  one that has
a strong extensibility and programmability model that makes it the
preferred platform for innovation, one that has a dedicated community
of supporters.  I’ll need your help to get there."

The use of "I" twice does give the impression of leadership. It would
have been nice if someone from ASF had promptly undertaken
fire-fighting there.

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Greg Stein Greg Stein
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 13:07, Augustine Souza <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 6/6/11, Greg Stein <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...
>> the project? Bob can say whatever he'd like on his blog.
>>
> ...
>>
>> In any case... stop assuming that what *one* person says is
>> representative of the entire (ASF) community. That simply isn't true.
>>
> ...
>
> That blog is responsible for quite a lot of ill-will. Here's a quote
> from the end of the blog:
> "I have a vision of a free, high quality productivity suite, one based
> on open standards and open source, one that doesn’t treat the web and
> mobile and tablet form factors as a design afterthought,  one that has
> a strong extensibility and programmability model that makes it the
> preferred platform for innovation, one that has a dedicated community
> of supporters.  I’ll need your help to get there."
>
> The use of "I" twice does give the impression of leadership. It would
> have been nice if someone from ASF had promptly undertaken
> fire-fighting there.

The ASF does not police speech on the Internet.

Bob is not even part of the project (his name is not listed among the
contributors in the proposal). Nothing more to say than that.

Cheers,
-g

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NoOp NoOp
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Jim Jagielski
On 06/04/2011 05:10 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
...
> Whether OOo lives or dies in Apache, Oracle has made it abundantly
> clear that this is it... This is one promise I fully expect Oracle
> will keep :/

Interesting...

Could you clarify that statement?

1. @ASF: What happens to OOo if ASF votes *not* to accept the OOo
project into the incubator? And it that is the case, what happens to the
OOo software that has been granted to the ASF by Oracle?

2. @TDF: More importantly (from my POV) - what, if any, affect will this
have on TDF/LO if OOo 'dies in Apache'?

Apologies if this may have already been asked & answered. If so, can
someone point me to the appropriate messges within the hundreds of posts
& many, many threads on the ASF incubator list, or on this list?






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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

Hi Gary,

NoOp wrote (07-06-11 03:05)

> 2. @TDF: More importantly (from my POV) - what, if any, affect will this
> have on TDF/LO if OOo 'dies in Apache'?

It has become clear to me the last week or so, that there is a close to
fundamental difference in the approach by IBM. This has been reflected
in the past, has become my understanding these weeks too (bit late, well
bit naive to sometimes) in the way they were present (...) in the old
OOo project.
Now of course they want to gather as much support as possible around the
Apache OOo project.
Just as we would like to see as much as possible support around
LibreOffice. If Apache OOo comes off the ground, at a certain point
people will start to find the rationale - despite the existing
differences - to some practical cooperation.
So if OOo would die in Apache - would be a pity - that last exercise
could be skipped. And people would natural start to work more in TDF.
But I am well aware that there are still people disappointed or
frustrated by the way TDF/LibreOffice started. Be it because they feel
ignored (it simply  was impossible to get all people involved at that
stage) or because they were not so popular in the community, or because
they felt our step was unfair in relation to all the good work that the
main sponsor did over the last years, or because .. Though I have
different thoughts on some of the issues, I can well understand most of
the feelings and expect that at least part of those will not likely join
with LibreOffice.
And then of course there is IBM. In any case for the license part TDF
tried as much as possible to cater for them with MPL. So that might help
for a pragmatic outcome. This all in the if scenario.

> Apologies if this may have already been asked&  answered. If so, can
> someone point me to the appropriate messages within the hundreds of posts
> &  many, many threads on the ASF incubator list, or on this list?

Well, as much letters I spend on the if-subject above, so little

Would take me some time to dig the indeed already impressive archives on
this subject, to be able to point you to the answers that will not help
you much further than the words I spend on this 'if-subject' above
and than your own imagination. It is my experience in the discussions
there that fundamental questions on the why and how of the situation are
ignored or circumvented, which is fair enough understandable since it is
not really what the podling in Apache is about, or even fed with FUD,
which is less palatable IMO.

HTH a bit,
Regards

Cor
  (who realises that there are still some use case questions pending
   that we together worked on few weeks ago :-\ )


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  - http://nl.libreoffice.org


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NoOp NoOp
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

On 06/07/2011 01:01 AM, Cor Nouws wrote:
...

>> Apologies if this may have already been asked&  answered. If so, can
>> someone point me to the appropriate messages within the hundreds of posts
>> &  many, many threads on the ASF incubator list, or on this list?
>
> Well, as much letters I spend on the if-subject above, so little
>
> Would take me some time to dig the indeed already impressive archives on
> this subject, to be able to point you to the answers that will not help
> you much further than the words I spend on this 'if-subject' above
> and than your own imagination. It is my experience in the discussions
> there that fundamental questions on the why and how of the situation are
> ignored or circumvented, which is fair enough understandable since it is
> not really what the podling in Apache is about, or even fed with FUD,
> which is less palatable IMO.

No problem. I was away for the weekend racing & just now trying to catch
up on the hundreds of posts on multiple lists.

>
> HTH a bit,

It does.

> Regards
>
> Cor
>   (who realises that there are still some use case questions pending
>    that we together worked on few weeks ago :-\ )

Thanks Cor. Your reply is much appreciated.

Gary



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NoOp NoOp
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by NoOp
Repeat.

On 06/06/2011 06:05 PM, NoOp wrote:

> On 06/04/2011 05:10 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> ...
>> Whether OOo lives or dies in Apache, Oracle has made it abundantly
>> clear that this is it... This is one promise I fully expect Oracle
>> will keep :/
>
> Interesting...
>
> Could you clarify that statement?
>
> 1. @ASF: What happens to OOo if ASF votes *not* to accept the OOo
> project into the incubator? And it that is the case, what happens to the
> OOo software that has been granted to the ASF by Oracle?
...

Was it your intention to pop into this list with:

> Hello!
>
> I have also just subscribed to both discuss@ and steering-discuss@
> in hopes that if there are questions here regarding OOo, LOo, TDF
> and the ASF, I can respond. I'm also here to also ask that if
> you feel more comfortable emailing me directly, that is fine
> as well.

and no longer respond to questions?

The questions are, IMO, valid and are important - both for OOo and TDF/LO.



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Greg Stein Greg Stein
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by NoOp
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 21:05, NoOp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 06/04/2011 05:10 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> ...
>> Whether OOo lives or dies in Apache, Oracle has made it abundantly
>> clear that this is it... This is one promise I fully expect Oracle
>> will keep :/
>
> Interesting...
>
> Could you clarify that statement?
>
> 1. @ASF: What happens to OOo if ASF votes *not* to accept the OOo
> project into the incubator? And it that is the case, what happens to the
> OOo software that has been granted to the ASF by Oracle?

We already have a recorded software grant from Oracle. So in that
sense, we can release that code under the ALv2 right now. Normally,
Apache will only make releases after appropriate review and testing.
But if a project doesn't even get started, then there is nobody to
perform that process, so podlings that do not start or do not graduate
never get a chance to release the code.

In this case, it is quite extra-ordinary. As a Director of the
Foundation, I would lobby my fellow Board members to construct a
tarball of the granted source files and drop that onto one of our
servers. "Take it as-is. No warranty implied" and all that. I am
pretty confident that the Board would agree to such an action.

> 2. @TDF: More importantly (from my POV) - what, if any, affect will this
> have on TDF/LO if OOo 'dies in Apache'?

I suspect TDF will simply continue as before. They could "rebase"
their files from the ALv2-licensed files, providing a much greater
flexibility in the licensing of their overall work.

> Apologies if this may have already been asked & answered. If so, can
> someone point me to the appropriate messges within the hundreds of posts
> & many, many threads on the ASF incubator list, or on this list?

Not a problem. There is a ton of email, and maybe not enough hours in
the day to deal with it :-) I saw your later query to Jim, asking for
a response. He hasn't responded because he is away at a conference for
a few days.

Cheers,
-g

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NoOp NoOp
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

On 06/07/2011 05:26 PM, Greg Stein wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 21:05, NoOp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 06/04/2011 05:10 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>> ...
>>> Whether OOo lives or dies in Apache, Oracle has made it abundantly
>>> clear that this is it... This is one promise I fully expect Oracle
>>> will keep :/
>>
>> Interesting...
>>
>> Could you clarify that statement?
>>
>> 1. @ASF: What happens to OOo if ASF votes *not* to accept the OOo
>> project into the incubator? And it that is the case, what happens to the
>> OOo software that has been granted to the ASF by Oracle?
>
> We already have a recorded software grant from Oracle. So in that
> sense, we can release that code under the ALv2 right now. Normally,
> Apache will only make releases after appropriate review and testing.
> But if a project doesn't even get started, then there is nobody to
> perform that process, so podlings that do not start or do not graduate
> never get a chance to release the code.
>
> In this case, it is quite extra-ordinary. As a Director of the
> Foundation, I would lobby my fellow Board members to construct a
> tarball of the granted source files and drop that onto one of our
> servers. "Take it as-is. No warranty implied" and all that. I am
> pretty confident that the Board would agree to such an action.
>
>> 2. @TDF: More importantly (from my POV) - what, if any, affect will this
>> have on TDF/LO if OOo 'dies in Apache'?
>
> I suspect TDF will simply continue as before. They could "rebase"
> their files from the ALv2-licensed files, providing a much greater
> flexibility in the licensing of their overall work.
>
>> Apologies if this may have already been asked & answered. If so, can
>> someone point me to the appropriate messges within the hundreds of posts
>> & many, many threads on the ASF incubator list, or on this list?
>
> Not a problem. There is a ton of email, and maybe not enough hours in
> the day to deal with it :-) I saw your later query to Jim, asking for
> a response. He hasn't responded because he is away at a conference for
> a few days.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>

Thanks Greg. Appreciate the response.

Gary Lee



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Simon Phipps Simon Phipps
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Greg Stein
On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 1:26 AM, Greg Stein <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Not a problem. There is a ton of email, and maybe not enough hours in
> the day to deal with it :-)
>

Lovely answer at all points, thanks, Greg.

S.

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Jim Jagielski Jim Jagielski
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by NoOp

On Jun 7, 2011, at 7:04 PM, NoOp wrote:

> Repeat.
>
> On 06/06/2011 06:05 PM, NoOp wrote:
>> On 06/04/2011 05:10 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>> ...
>>> Whether OOo lives or dies in Apache, Oracle has made it abundantly
>>> clear that this is it... This is one promise I fully expect Oracle
>>> will keep :/
>>
>> Interesting...
>>
>> Could you clarify that statement?
>>
>> 1. @ASF: What happens to OOo if ASF votes *not* to accept the OOo
>> project into the incubator? And it that is the case, what happens to the
>> OOo software that has been granted to the ASF by Oracle?
> ...
>
> Was it your intention to pop into this list with:
>
>> Hello!
>>
>> I have also just subscribed to both discuss@ and steering-discuss@
>> in hopes that if there are questions here regarding OOo, LOo, TDF
>> and the ASF, I can respond. I'm also here to also ask that if
>> you feel more comfortable emailing me directly, that is fine
>> as well.
>
> and no longer respond to questions?
>
> The questions are, IMO, valid and are important - both for OOo and TDF/LO.

Sorry I did not reply to this email in a timely manner... although I
have replied to others, I did not have time to answer this one;
I have been traveling and am at a conference and so sincere
apologies for taking 2 days to reply.

I think that should OOo not be approved as an incubator podling,
then there are 3 main options.

The first is that the ASF could refuse the grant, at which point
they would remain Oracle property. I think that some people would
want to do that; the ASF is not in the business of accepting stuff
that it has no intention of using.

The 2nd is that the ASF accept the grant and simply place the
tarball on a server somewhere and say "here it is." The ASF
would let the OOo trademark die.

The 3rd would be that the ASF would donate the code and the trademark
to someone else; there is no guarantee that it would be to TDF or
anyone else to TDFs liking, since we have no idea who it would be
or could be donated to.

I will say that it is unfortunate that there is sooo much distrust
on both sides, because it really prevents us from having the type
of open and honest discussions required. There are people who see
TDF's resistance to working with the ASF as a simple ploy to get
the ASF to donate the code (and trademark) to them, acting for what
seems as what is in their best interest, rather than the best interest
of the community in general. Same as those who see the ASF as more
interested in "taking over" than in working with people.

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mhenriday mhenriday
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

2011/6/8 Jim Jagielski <[hidden email]>

>
> On Jun 7, 2011, at 7:04 PM, NoOp wrote:
>
> > Repeat.
> >
> > On 06/06/2011 06:05 PM, NoOp wrote:
> >> On 06/04/2011 05:10 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> >> ...
> >>> Whether OOo lives or dies in Apache, Oracle has made it abundantly
> >>> clear that this is it... This is one promise I fully expect Oracle
> >>> will keep :/
> >>
> >> Interesting...
> >>
> >> Could you clarify that statement?
> >>
> >> 1. @ASF: What happens to OOo if ASF votes *not* to accept the OOo
> >> project into the incubator? And it that is the case, what happens to the
> >> OOo software that has been granted to the ASF by Oracle?
> > ...
> >
> > Was it your intention to pop into this list with:
> >
> >> Hello!
> >>
> >> I have also just subscribed to both discuss@ and steering-discuss@
> >> in hopes that if there are questions here regarding OOo, LOo, TDF
> >> and the ASF, I can respond. I'm also here to also ask that if
> >> you feel more comfortable emailing me directly, that is fine
> >> as well.
> >
> > and no longer respond to questions?
> >
> > The questions are, IMO, valid and are important - both for OOo and
> TDF/LO.
>
> Sorry I did not reply to this email in a timely manner... although I
> have replied to others, I did not have time to answer this one;
> I have been traveling and am at a conference and so sincere
> apologies for taking 2 days to reply.
>
> I think that should OOo not be approved as an incubator podling,
> then there are 3 main options.
>
> The first is that the ASF could refuse the grant, at which point
> they would remain Oracle property. I think that some people would
> want to do that; the ASF is not in the business of accepting stuff
> that it has no intention of using.
>
> The 2nd is that the ASF accept the grant and simply place the
> tarball on a server somewhere and say "here it is." The ASF
> would let the OOo trademark die.
>
> The 3rd would be that the ASF would donate the code and the trademark
> to someone else; there is no guarantee that it would be to TDF or
> anyone else to TDFs liking, since we have no idea who it would be
> or could be donated to.
>
> I will say that it is unfortunate that there is sooo much distrust
> on both sides, because it really prevents us from having the type
> of open and honest discussions required. There are people who see
> TDF's resistance to working with the ASF as a simple ploy to get
> the ASF to donate the code (and trademark) to them, acting for what
> seems as what is in their best interest, rather than the best interest
> of the community in general. Same as those who see the ASF as more
> interested in "taking over" than in working with people.
>
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> deleted
>

Jim, thank you for your considered - and considerate ! - reply. The
circumstances being what they are, would not the best path for ASF to
take(as seems to me to be the case) be
to accept the grant (in the event Oracle is offering it *nulla condicione
astrictus*) and then donate both the code and the trademark to TDF, given
the great work that the latter has been doing on LibreOffice ?...

Henri

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Jim Jagielski Jim Jagielski
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice


On Jun 8, 2011, at 11:17 AM, M Henri Day wrote:

>
> Jim, thank you for your considered - and considerate ! - reply. The
> circumstances being what they are, would not the best path for ASF to
> take(as seems to me to be the case) be
> to accept the grant (in the event Oracle is offering it *nulla condicione
> astrictus*) and then donate both the code and the trademark to TDF, given
> the great work that the latter has been doing on LibreOffice ?...

It's possible, sure, but if the ASF were to do this, then I
would expect that they/we would spent quite a bit of time
determining the "best" place for it... Not saying that it's
not TDF, but who knows... Not a slam against TDF at all,
just an honest statement that we don't know where it would
go.

(will likely be offline for the next several hours, if
not more...)


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Tanstaafl Tanstaafl
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

On 2011-06-08 12:25 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> On Jun 8, 2011, at 11:17 AM, M Henri Day wrote:
>> Jim, thank you for your considered - and considerate ! - reply.
>> The circumstances being what they are, would not the best path for
>> ASF to take(as seems to me to be the case) be to accept the grant
>> (in the event Oracle is offering it *nulla condicione astrictus*)
>> and then donate both the code and the trademark to TDF, given the
>> great work that the latter has been doing on LibreOffice ?...

> It's possible, sure, but if the ASF were to do this, then I would
> expect that they/we would spent quite a bit of time determining the
> "best" place for it... Not saying that it's not TDF, but who knows...
> Not a slam against TDF at all, just an honest statement that we don't
> know where it would go.

I honestly don't know how you can say that with a straight face...
Where *else* would even be a *remotely* viable candidate?

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André Schnabel André Schnabel
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Jim Jagielski
Hi Jim,


Am 08.06.2011 18:25, schrieb Jim Jagielski:
>
> It's possible, sure, but if the ASF were to do this, then I
> would expect that they/we would spent quite a bit of time
> determining the "best" place for it... Not saying that it's
> not TDF, but who knows... Not a slam against TDF at all,
> just an honest statement that we don't know where it would
> go.

I see no problem in that statement, as it is just what you say: honest.

But a mail before you wrote:
> ... There are people who see TDF's resistance to working with the ASF ...

I do not see, that this resistance really exists for two reasons:

1st
It is up to the individuals to bring a project forward, so the TDF as
abstract entity would do very abstract work only. If you have a look at
the recent discussions, you may notice that many TDF members already
gave a lot of input and helped Apache to make a good decision. I
personally would consider this as "working together" (at least as a
first step).

2nd
I hope I'm allowed to be as honest as you are. I don't feel that ASF is
"the best place" for the OOo trademark and source code. But I still
consider Apache as "a good place" - so imho we are at a quite even level
(unless you want to tell that TDF would be a really "bad" place for the
OOo assets ;) ).


regards,

André

(PS.: same rule here as at the Apache lists: I'm speaking as individual
- not as "TDF")



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Marvin Humphrey Marvin Humphrey
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by NoOp
> > 1. @ASF: What happens to OOo if ASF votes *not* to accept the OOo
> > project into the incubator? And it that is the case, what happens to the
> > OOo software that has been granted to the ASF by Oracle?

For what it's worth... Reading the tea leaves, I will be very surprised if the
OOo podling does not get accepted into the Incubator.

Marvin Humphrey


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Greg Stein Greg Stein
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by mhenriday
On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 12:17, M Henri Day <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2011/6/8 Jim Jagielski <[hidden email]>
>...
>> The 2nd is that the ASF accept the grant and simply place the
>> tarball on a server somewhere and say "here it is." The ASF
>> would let the OOo trademark die.

I've said elsewhere (and earlier in this thread) that this option
would be my favorite.

>...
> Jim, thank you for your considered - and considerate ! - reply. The
> circumstances being what they are, would not the best path for ASF to
> take(as seems to me to be the case) be
> to accept the grant (in the event Oracle is offering it *nulla condicione
> astrictus*) and then donate both the code and the trademark to TDF, given
> the great work that the latter has been doing on LibreOffice ?...

We do not have a transferable right on the software grant. So we can't
"give" the code to TDF. We certainly can provide the code under the
ALv2 license for TDF to pick up.

We don't have the OOo trademark or website yet, but I believe we'll be
getting rights to those. Should things fall apart in the Apache
project, then yeah... we'd be interested in transferring those away.
But it looks like we want to give the project a chance to succeed, so
such a transfer would be premature right now.

Cheers,
-g

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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Jim Jagielski
On 6/8/11 5:59 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:

> I think that should OOo not be approved as an incubator podling,
> then there are 3 main options.

I sincerely hope that OOo is approved as an incubator podling, because
any other option would be a defeat for free software in general and for
OOo in particular. Of course, TDF would have preferred a different path
of evolution, but I understand that the non copy-left license (which we
don't like) is a factor for IBM for having the project at ASF.

> I will say that it is unfortunate that there is sooo much distrust
> on both sides, because it really prevents us from having the type
> of open and honest discussions required. There are people who see
> TDF's resistance to working with the ASF as a simple ploy to get
> the ASF to donate the code (and trademark) to them, acting for what
> seems as what is in their best interest, rather than the best interest
> of the community in general. Same as those who see the ASF as more
> interested in "taking over" than in working with people.

I think that we should look more at what we can get from each other than
everything else. Speaking from TDF side, I have seen ASF too much
confident in its ability to manage whichever FLOSS project. TDF knows
more about OOo than most other people (I think that the analisys of the
files donated by Oracle is a demonstration, and shows co-operation), at
any level, and should be respected for that.

On the other hand, ASF members should start building their opinions
about TDF from other sources than the rumors spread by individuals who,
for personal reasons, do not like TDF (you can find any flavour of them
around the Internet, and some of them have signed as committers).

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Italo Vignoli
Director - The Document Foundation
BRM BRM
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

----- Original Message ----

> From: Italo Vignoli <[hidden email]>
> On the other hand, ASF members  should start building their opinions about TDF
>from other sources than the  rumors spread by individuals who, for personal
>reasons, do not like TDF (you can  find any flavour of them around the Internet,
>and some of them have signed as  committers).
>
 
Like all the venom towards Oracle, OOo, and ASF that has been spewed by TDF
members and contributors on this topic over the last few days?

I'm more of an outside observer on all of this, and have tried to keep up on the
topic to see where things go, but there's not much better way to put it (sadly).
TDF as an organization did respond well to the announcement, but the TDF/LO
community has not, and you don't have to look to IBM or Oracle or anyone else to
see that; which is quite sad.
It's not a matter of rumor - just read the archives.

I'm quite pleased to see the ASF members (at least here) not taking offense but
continuing to act very diplomatically throughout all of this. (That said, I
haven't paid nearly as much attention to the Apache Mailing Lists.)

$0.02

Ben


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Tanstaafl Tanstaafl
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

On 2011-06-08 2:04 PM, BRM wrote:
> Like all the venom towards Oracle, OOo, and ASF that has been spewed
> by TDF members and contributors on this topic over the last few days?

Very little of the negative reaction has been directed at the ASF,
mostly it is directed at Oracle...

Personally, I think it is silly - LibO obviously has moved way past
where OOo was, so it is imho a non issue...

Rest in peace, OOo... long live LibO!

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Greg Stein Greg Stein
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by BRM
On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 14:04, BRM <[hidden email]> wrote:
>...
> I'm quite pleased to see the ASF members (at least here) not taking offense but
> continuing to act very diplomatically throughout all of this. (That said, I
> haven't paid nearly as much attention to the Apache Mailing Lists.)

There is certainly a good bit of defensiveness from Apache people over
on the other list. Just kind of the nature of things.

I'm just looking forward to a vote on the danged podling so that we
can start getting "real work" done. Most of the discussion has died
down now.

Cheers,
-g

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