RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] Wiki upload issues [was Libo4 Pages: new version 20130211]

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Jonathan Aquilina Jonathan Aquilina
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RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] Wiki upload issues [was Libo4 Pages: new version 20130211]

Florian someone had also mentioned using silver stripe. Seeing as that is
already in place could that be a possibility as well?

-----Original Message-----
From: Florian Effenberger [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 17 February 2013 12:00
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE:
[Libreoffice-website] Wiki upload issues [was Libo4 Pages: new version
20130211]

Hi,

Jonathan Aquilina wrote on 2013-02-16 12:04:
> If I am understanding the current situation correctly the issue is the
> size of the images in terms of uploads and size allowed on the wiki.
> Think of it this way using version control would allow us to evolve
> the images as the website changes etc., but not only that it will
> build up a nice repository in terms of media that can be used on other
> aspects of website projects at the TDF.

the main problem is that there are even people who have issues with WebDAV,
which is much easier. We can't expect everyone to be as technically savvy as
we are, but everyone needs to get along with the tool. I think git is way
too complicated for those just wanting to store some media.

One spontaneous idea coming to my mind would be ownCloud - it has WebDAV, is
usable via web, and has an integrated history. Maybe that's an option we can
consider - but I think someone needs to poke the design team asking what
they prefer.

Florian

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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] Wiki upload issues [was Libo4 Pages: new version 20130211]

Hi,

Jonathan Aquilina wrote on 2013-02-17 12:00:
> Florian someone had also mentioned using silver stripe. Seeing as that is
> already in place could that be a possibility as well?

I'm not sure. I think Silverstripe mainly serves media for its own
sites, but then, we could easily create a subsite serving only files.
I'd like to hear Christian Lohmaier's thoughts on that, he has most
experience, I assume.

Florian

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Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
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RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] Wiki upload issues [was Libo4 Pages: new version 20130211]

Hi Florian, *,

On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Florian Effenberger
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Jonathan Aquilina wrote on 2013-02-17 12:00:
>
>> Florian someone had also mentioned using silver stripe. Seeing as that is
>> already in place could that be a possibility as well?
>
> I'm not sure. I think Silverstripe mainly serves media for its own sites,
> but then, we could easily create a subsite serving only files. I'd like to
> hear Christian Lohmaier's thoughts on that, he has most experience, I
> assume.

Silverstripe doesn't help organizing files by itself - by default it
also doesn't version files. There's modules that add the possibility
to use versions, but still that would only be exposed to editors by
default, not to regular visitors.

I didn't follow the thread closely, but I think the requirements
include that those versioned copies are also available for regular
visitors.

While it is certainly possible to enhance the code to do so, it would
be retrofitting it. And due to the history of bad requirements
provided by the community, it will take long time to create it the way
people would like it :-)

What is easy is to have silverstripe provide a list of links for files
in a folder hierarchy. But there is nothing that would enforce a
hierarchy for a given file, let's say you download and edit file foo
from category "writer", then I'd expect it to go back to category
"writer" - but doing that is all up to the user who does upload the
files.

For example I don't know what the problem with alfresco was. Only
reason I remember reading here was that people were more familiar with
the other platform for odfauthors.

Also I don't really know who will be using the "file-storage", and I
really lack a list of stuff that the file-storage should (would be
nice-to-have) and must (absolute requirement) be able to do.

ciao
Christian

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Robinson Tryon Robinson Tryon
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RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] Wiki upload issues [was Libo4 Pages: new version 20130211]

On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Christian Lohmaier
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Silverstripe [doesn't give us organization or versioning for free;
> we'd have to add that enhancement ourselves]
>
> While it is certainly possible to enhance the code to do so, it would
> be retrofitting it. And due to the history of bad requirements
> provided by the community, it will take long time to create it the way
> people would like it :-)

The less we need to develop in-house, the better.

> What is easy is to have silverstripe provide a list of links for files
> in a folder hierarchy. But there is nothing that would enforce a
> hierarchy for a given file, let's say you download and edit file foo
> from category "writer", then I'd expect it to go back to category
> "writer" - but doing that is all up to the user who does upload the
> files.

I agree: That setup might put too much responsibility on the user. If
there's no 'sync my files' button or 'git commit -a', then it's going
to be hard for us to keep our repository tidy and organized.

> For example I don't know what the problem with alfresco was. Only
> reason I remember reading here was that people were more familiar with
> the other platform for odfauthors.

I haven't used silverstripe or alfresco. If someone wants to give me
some credentials to an existing install (user: qubit), I'd be happy to
poke around and learn more about their interaction and workflows.

> Also I don't really know who will be using the "file-storage", and I
> really lack a list of stuff that the file-storage should (would be
> nice-to-have) and must (absolute requirement) be able to do.

Here's my first draft:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Qubit/Repository_for_non-code_assets#Feature_comparisons

Please feel free to make comments or update notes on that page. I'd
especially like someone familiar with Silverstripe to fill in
information.

After assembling that monster table, I found it interesting how well
MediaWiki stacked up. MediaWiki provides a solid list of our desired
features, and provides the best support for metadata and license
management of any of the tools I've tested. The biggest feature that
it's missing is tools for batch management (import, download, etc..).

Cheers,
--R

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] Wiki upload issues [was Libo4 Pages: new version 20130211]

Le 2013-02-18 02:53, Robinson Tryon a écrit :

> On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Christian Lohmaier
> <[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>
>> Silverstripe [doesn't give us organization or versioning for free;
>> we'd have to add that enhancement ourselves]
>>
>> While it is certainly possible to enhance the code to do so, it would
>> be retrofitting it. And due to the history of bad requirements
>> provided by the community, it will take long time to create it the way
>> people would like it :-)
>
> The less we need to develop in-house, the better.
>
>> What is easy is to have silverstripe provide a list of links for files
>> in a folder hierarchy. But there is nothing that would enforce a
>> hierarchy for a given file, let's say you download and edit file foo
>> from category "writer", then I'd expect it to go back to category
>> "writer" - but doing that is all up to the user who does upload the
>> files.
>
> I agree: That setup might put too much responsibility on the user. If
> there's no 'sync my files' button or 'git commit -a', then it's going
> to be hard for us to keep our repository tidy and organized.
>
>> For example I don't know what the problem with alfresco was. Only
>> reason I remember reading here was that people were more familiar with
>> the other platform for odfauthors.
>
> I haven't used silverstripe or alfresco. If someone wants to give me
> some credentials to an existing install (user: qubit), I'd be happy to
> poke around and learn more about their interaction and workflows.
>
>> Also I don't really know who will be using the "file-storage", and I
>> really lack a list of stuff that the file-storage should (would be
>> nice-to-have) and must (absolute requirement) be able to do.
>
> Here's my first draft:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Qubit/Repository_for_non-code_assets#Feature_comparisons
>
> Please feel free to make comments or update notes on that page. I'd
> especially like someone familiar with Silverstripe to fill in
> information.
>
> After assembling that monster table, I found it interesting how well
> MediaWiki stacked up. MediaWiki provides a solid list of our desired
> features, and provides the best support for metadata and license
> management of any of the tools I've tested. The biggest feature that
> it's missing is tools for batch management (import, download, etc..).
>
> Cheers,
> --R
>

Well, as a bonus, if we went with Alfresco, we could also do a bit of
CMIS along with it. :-) And, as a bonus, maybe Alfresco devs would be
able to help?

Cheers,

Marc

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Robinson Tryon Robinson Tryon
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Re: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] Wiki upload issues [was Libo4 Pages: new version 20130211]

On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 1:56 AM, Marc Paré <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Well, as a bonus, if we went with Alfresco, we could also do a bit of CMIS
> along with it. :-) And, as a bonus, maybe Alfresco devs would be able to
> help?
>

https://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/web-administrators/
This page mentions Alfresco as if it were still in use, although one
of the links is dead and the other mentions documentation, which I
believe is now over at odfauthors.org on Plone.

Alfresco sounds like a good candidate. I think the next step in
considering it for this purpose is understanding why we moved away
from it for our localization and documentation work. If there are
limitations to the platform, best to identify them up front :-)

-- Robinson 'qubit' Tryon

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] Wiki upload issues [was Libo4 Pages: new version 20130211]

Le 2013-02-19 02:33, Robinson Tryon a écrit :

> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 1:56 AM, Marc Paré<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Well, as a bonus, if we went with Alfresco, we could also do a bit of CMIS
>> along with it. :-) And, as a bonus, maybe Alfresco devs would be able to
>> help?
>>
>
> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/web-administrators/
> This page mentions Alfresco as if it were still in use, although one
> of the links is dead and the other mentions documentation, which I
> believe is now over at odfauthors.org on Plone.
>
> Alfresco sounds like a good candidate. I think the next step in
> considering it for this purpose is understanding why we moved away
> from it for our localization and documentation work. If there are
> limitations to the platform, best to identify them up front :-)
>
> -- Robinson 'qubit' Tryon
>

The Alfresco server was not ours and the docs team who tried it decided
to stay with the ODFAuthors workflow instead of using Alfresco.
ODFAuthors has been with us from the very start and also was there with
OOo.

Cedric also mentioned Plone as a possible candidate. Should this also be
looked at? The LibreOffice extensions website works on Plone and also
does CMIS (I think this is what Cedric mentioned).

Cheers,

Marc

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parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
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Cedric Bosdonnat Cedric Bosdonnat
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Re: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] Wiki upload issues [was Libo4 Pages: new version 20130211]

In reply to this post by Robinson Tryon
Hi Robinson,

Robinson Tryon <bishop.robinson <at> gmail.com> writes:

>
> On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Christian Lohmaier
> <lohmaier+ooofuture <at> googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Silverstripe [doesn't give us organization or versioning for free;
> > we'd have to add that enhancement ourselves]
> >
> > While it is certainly possible to enhance the code to do so, it would
> > be retrofitting it. And due to the history of bad requirements
> > provided by the community, it will take long time to create it the way
> > people would like it
>
> The less we need to develop in-house, the better.

Indeed, there are quite a few products for document management
providing the convenient features we need.

> > What is easy is to have silverstripe provide a list of links for files
> > in a folder hierarchy. But there is nothing that would enforce a
> > hierarchy for a given file, let's say you download and edit file foo
> > from category "writer", then I'd expect it to go back to category
> > "writer" - but doing that is all up to the user who does upload the
> > files.
>
> I agree: That setup might put too much responsibility on the user. If
> there's no 'sync my files' button or 'git commit -a', then it's going
> to be hard for us to keep our repository tidy and organized.

There it would be nice to be able to use a product providing a CMIS
access to the data. Then a user with his branch new LibreOffice 4.0
could open the document directly from the server, check it out, work
on it, and check it back in... It would help keeping the document
repository in a clean state and would all be in the LO GUI.

> > For example I don't know what the problem with alfresco was. Only
> > reason I remember reading here was that people were more familiar with
> > the other platform for odfauthors.
>
> I haven't used silverstripe or alfresco. If someone wants to give me
> some credentials to an existing install (user: qubit), I'd be happy to
> poke around and learn more about their interaction and workflows.

Well, trying Alfresco isn't that hard... I can help you setting up a
virtual machine for test purpose. Alfresco is the one ECM/CMS I know
best as I used to provide consulting for it years ago, but we can
also have a look at other free software providing CMIS access. A
list (possibly not complete) of products support CMIS can be found
here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMIS#CMIS_Servers.

[...]
 
> Please feel free to make comments or update notes on that page. I'd
> especially like someone familiar with Silverstripe to fill in
> information.

I'll have a look at that page and will possibly add some bits there.
Thanks for starting it.

--
Cedric


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cbosdonnat cbosdonnat
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Re: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] Wiki upload issues [was Libo4 Pages: new version 20130211]

In reply to this post by marcpare4
On Tue, 2013-02-19 at 11:58 -0500, Marc Paré wrote:

> Le 2013-02-19 02:33, Robinson Tryon a écrit :
> > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 1:56 AM, Marc Paré<[hidden email]>  wrote:
> >> Well, as a bonus, if we went with Alfresco, we could also do a bit of CMIS
> >> along with it. :-) And, as a bonus, maybe Alfresco devs would be able to
> >> help?
> >>
> >
> > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/web-administrators/
> > This page mentions Alfresco as if it were still in use, although one
> > of the links is dead and the other mentions documentation, which I
> > believe is now over at odfauthors.org on Plone.
> >
> > Alfresco sounds like a good candidate. I think the next step in
> > considering it for this purpose is understanding why we moved away
> > from it for our localization and documentation work. If there are
> > limitations to the platform, best to identify them up front :-)
> >
> > -- Robinson 'qubit' Tryon
> >
>
> The Alfresco server was not ours and the docs team who tried it decided
> to stay with the ODFAuthors workflow instead of using Alfresco.
> ODFAuthors has been with us from the very start and also was there with
> OOo.

IMHO, the problems encountered with the Alfresco setup with the
documentation team are mainly on the organizational ones. Alfresco can
do a lot of interesting and useful things... but we first need to think
properly about the workflows and rules we need before setting up the
constraints. The case we are discussing here is less complex than the
doc team one and I'm convinced we could start with no complexity (like a
sort of file server with versioning) and setup workflows later when
people start to be used to the tool (may it be Alfresco or any other
one) and know what we can do with it.

> Cedric also mentioned Plone as a possible candidate. Should this also be
> looked at? The LibreOffice extensions website works on Plone and also
> does CMIS (I think this is what Cedric mentioned).

Well, I never said it does it... I said Plone has some sort of CMIS
support, but probably not mature enough yet. I also said I'll need the
CMIS feature on the templates website sooner or later, though it's not
done yet.

Plone may be a candidate, but I'm honestly not sure it's the best one
for what is usually called ECM (Enterprise Content Management)... which
is what we are looking for here.

--
Cedric

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David Nelson David Nelson
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Re: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] Wiki upload issues [was Libo4 Pages: new version 20130211]

In reply to this post by marcpare4
Marc,

On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 6:58 PM, Marc Paré <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The Alfresco server was not ours
>

That is not true actually, it was simply provided, after agreement by the
(now) BoD, by a community member (me) on my own server, using a TDF-granted
LibreOffice.org subdomain.

But the website team needs updating, as it is still the same text as when I
originally wrote it back in 2011. Since the docs team eventually decided to
use the ODFAuthors site, I closed that Alfresco server down after prior
notice to all. ;-)

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] RE: [Libreoffice-website] Wiki upload issues [was Libo4 Pages: new version 20130211]

Le 2013-02-19 12:27, David Nelson a écrit :

> Marc,
>
> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 6:58 PM, Marc Paré<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> The Alfresco server was not ours
>>
>
> That is not true actually, it was simply provided, after agreement by the
> (now) BoD, by a community member (me) on my own server, using a TDF-granted
> LibreOffice.org subdomain.
>
> But the website team needs updating, as it is still the same text as when I
> originally wrote it back in 2011. Since the docs team eventually decided to
> use the ODFAuthors site, I closed that Alfresco server down after prior
> notice to all. ;-)
>

Thanks for the info David.

Marc

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