RE : Re: [libreoffice-website] Regroup and further development of the website(s)

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Regroup and further development of the website(s)

Hi Marc, :-)

Can I ask you for some quick help, if you have time for this?

We badly need a quick repo of templates. We currently have none at all
to offer from our own infrastructure...

Would there be any chance you could maybe collect a bunch of nice
templates, upload them to the wiki, and make a page on the wiki with
links to them?

This would be really helpful for the site, which I definitely want to
get to v1.0 status by Monday....

Once we get to that status, I promise I want us to come together and
function like a team, in a collaborative but pragmatic, productive
process.

There is lots of work for us all to do. I know you *do* care about
LibreOffice and the community, and that you have good ideas to
contribute. Let's just focus on the upcoming release, and how we can
help build our project into a success.

Can you collect us some templates this weekend? A big thanks if so. :-)

David Nelson

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Regroup and further development of the website(s)

Disclaimer: Personal opinion follows:
Forgive me if I am stepping out of line as a newish member but,

There seems to be a lot of 'measuring' going on, especially on the website
mailing list.
If someone has an idea and is willing to put in the effort regardless of the
outcome they should be encouraged to do so and applauded by the community if
the idea is implemented.

Too much effort is being put into arguing, accusing, misunderstanding and
dare I say it, trolling and burning.
Our community should rise above these negative, destructive attitudes and
look to the future.

Personally I am not interested in what anyone has contributed previously.
People come from all walks of life and nobody is a master of all trades.
If somebody, anybody has a constructive suggestion or valid idea I am
willing to consider and embrace it with solid work and encouragement.
In my experience if someone approaches a task or discussion from
an inflammatory or derogatory point of view, they have near nothing to
offer.

I hope others share this point of view, and I encourage others to embrace
the positives within our community in order to achieve more than we ever
imagined.

Michael Wheatland

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klaus-jürgen weghorn ol klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
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Re: Regroup and further development of the website(s)

In reply to this post by marcpare4
Hi Marc,
Am 07.01.2011 08:17, schrieb Marc Paré:
>
> I beg to differ. There was a group of website members willing to help
> out and had their names listed on the Silverstripe team wiki page
> membership roster. Now, I can no longer seem to find the wiki page
Do you look for this site:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Tasks_and_volunteers ?

Greetings
k-j


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Regroup and further development of the website(s)

In reply to this post by davidnelson
Le 2011-01-07 09:23, David Nelson a écrit :

> Hi Marc, :-)
>
> Can I ask you for some quick help, if you have time for this?
>
> We badly need a quick repo of templates. We currently have none at all
> to offer from our own infrastructure...
>
> Would there be any chance you could maybe collect a bunch of nice
> templates, upload them to the wiki, and make a page on the wiki with
> links to them?
>
> This would be really helpful for the site, which I definitely want to
> get to v1.0 status by Monday....
>
> Once we get to that status, I promise I want us to come together and
> function like a team, in a collaborative but pragmatic, productive
> process.
>
> There is lots of work for us all to do. I know you *do* care about
> LibreOffice and the community, and that you have good ideas to
> contribute. Let's just focus on the upcoming release, and how we can
> help build our project into a success.
>
> Can you collect us some templates this weekend? A big thanks if so. :-)
>
> David Nelson
>

Hi David, I'll take a look and see what I can do to help. Talk to you on
another thread if I need any direction or if anyone can help out too.

Cheers

Marc


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Regroup and further development of the website(s)

In reply to this post by klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
Le 2011-01-07 10:30, ol klaus-jürgen weghorn a écrit :

> Hi Marc,
> Am 07.01.2011 08:17, schrieb Marc Paré:
>>
>> I beg to differ. There was a group of website members willing to help
>> out and had their names listed on the Silverstripe team wiki page
>> membership roster. Now, I can no longer seem to find the wiki page
> Do you look for this site:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Tasks_and_volunteers ?
>
> Greetings
> k-j
>
>

Thanks. Yes.

Cheers

Marc


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klaus-jürgen weghorn ol klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
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Re: Regroup and further development of the website(s)

Hi Marc,
Am 07.01.2011 18:12, schrieb Marc Paré:

> Le 2011-01-07 10:30, ol klaus-jürgen weghorn a écrit :
>> Hi Marc,
>> Am 07.01.2011 08:17, schrieb Marc Paré:
>>>
>>> I beg to differ. There was a group of website members willing to help
>>> out and had their names listed on the Silverstripe team wiki page
>>> membership roster. Now, I can no longer seem to find the wiki page
>> Do you look for this site:
>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Tasks_and_volunteers ?
>>
>> Greetings
>> k-j
>>
>>
>
> Thanks. Yes.
De rien.

This way you will find it in the wiki:
Left navbar: click 'website'
and then take the Point 5.3 'Tasks and volunteers' and then you will
find it the next time. [1]

k-j

[1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website#Tasks_and_volunteers

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Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
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Re: Regroup and further development of the website(s)

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
Hi Michael,

On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 2:27 AM, Michael Wheatland
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In the absense of a Silverstripe team lead,

Not sure what you expect from a *Silverstripe* team lead.
If you think there is a lack of such a position, I'd like to hear the reasons.

I guess it is pretty clear that I deal with the technical aspects on
the server itself, i.e. running silverstripe itself (there are a few
other with access to the installation, such as Erich, but I consider
myself "lead" in this regard)

> I will try to coordinate
> the ideas and change management that comes from this review on the
> wiki in the same way it has been done on the Drupal development.

Well - if you mean managing the content to be put up:
There should not be a "Silverstripe" and "Drupal" management, but just
one "Website" one.

So if you have Silverstripe specific question, don't hesitate, I'll
try to clarify them.

ciao
Christian

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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: Regroup and further development of the website(s)

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
Hi Michael, all!

Am Samstag, den 08.01.2011, 00:34 +0930 schrieb Michael Wheatland:
> Disclaimer: Personal opinion follows:

Today, it seems even better to add this statement to the mailing list
footer ;-) I'd like to focus on three items ... (snip snip snip).

> If someone has an idea and is willing to put in the effort regardless of the
> outcome they should be encouraged to do so and applauded by the community if
> the idea is implemented.

May I over-stress this a bit? Please bear with me ... A volunteer grabs
the source code and removes Base (he never used Base, thus it might be
old habit ...), and directly commits that change to the master
code-line. Problem solved.

Will I applaud? Surely not, because it is something that heavily affects
our users - and even if this guy invested a lot of effort to do
something good for the project (from his point-of-view, without asking).

Fortunately - in this case - we only talk about code, so reverting the
change is rather simple due to our source code repository.

So let's summarize: It is not about any idea, but ideas that help the
community to grow (helping users, easing development and supporting
work, ...). I'm sure you fully agree.

But, the kind of ideas and what to achieve is what currently differs a
lot within the discussions I've read so far. Why? I think we talk
about ...
      * The process of designing and implementing the changes
      * Changes with regard to workflows
      * Changes concerning the web infrastructure


Please let me summarize what I currently see - no matter if this is
correct or not. This is what I perceive and (maybe) others as well:
      * There is an idea of improving the web infrastructure by using
        Drupal.
      * Initial ideas have been collected and some parts are documented
        in the wiki
      * There is a "Drupal Website Team" (at least a list in the wiki)
        that consists of several people (I can only remember 3 people
        who said on the lists to be on the Drupal team)
      * The team communicates, but I don't know when, why, how, and the
        given outcome
      * There has been a short sign on the Design Team mailing list (if
        I remember correctly), but more or less one reply later ... no
        further feedback
      * I got contacted off-list to help with some aspects of the Drupal
        website
      * From time to time, people from this team speak up and add
        comments to discussions and refer "vaguely" to future Drupal
        based solutions
      * There seems to be a Drupal test installation

So what do I perceive? Is there something I am able to "measure"? Hard
to say, because I don't have that much insight in what is going on at
the moment. I know that there is something going on, but how can I agree
to more than the general idea if I don't know if my needs (or the needs
of the users which I usually try to represent) are met?

>From time to time, I have a look in the wiki. I read the mails when the
Drupal team comments on issues (as far as I am aware of), and I enjoyed
your status report some time ago.

So my first question is, whether you can understand this view.

Some weeks ago, we already talked about how to make the progress more
transparent. I proposed to summarize the ongoing work (or let's say:
chat about it) in blogs. People can follow your thoughts, add ideas, ...
in a very natural way.

Of course, this puts even more effort on your side, but it may establish
more trust within "us", the stakeholders (as you tend to say).

Some time ago, I also proposed to work on prototypes for the teams.
Something they can easily comment on, so with each of the steps, you
slowly evolve to be domain experts :-)

Everything wouldn't be that much complicated, if ...


> Too much effort is being put into arguing, accusing, misunderstanding and
> dare I say it, trolling and burning.

... the website would only be "information representation" and thus
(like code, in my example above) easy to roll back if it wouldn't fit.
But talking about the Drupal system is - both in a positive and negative
way - much more.

What I currently perceive is that the Drupal team talks about roles,
workflows and the like. I'm fine with any kind of proposal how we can
save some effort, avoid mistakes ... but please be aware that you
currently touch _all_ community processes that have been established
over the past decade. And during that time, the processes have been
optimized to what is available (e.g. given local constraints).

People gained a lot of experience how to overcome these problems - tiny
little details that will be a "no go" for a huge system like that. I'm
sure that any standard "requirements identification and analysis"
process will fail here (assumption: time constraint).

Switch to "simple mode" - the wish to change everything (aim is
improvement), but appearing in-transparent to those who are target users
for the changes ... this combination doesn't work.

> Personally I am not interested in what anyone has contributed previously.

Sad to hear this - contribution sometimes means experience, even in
modeling/optimizing processes (although people might not be aware of).

So another example - you ask a question and two people reply differently
(both arguments appear valid). One of the guys is a long-term
contributor, the other one is new to the project. Who might "make it" -
long-term community member (involved in other topics as well, so just a
short reply), or the new member (having a bit more time to argue)?

So, referring to your statement, a rhetorical question: Why should we be
interested in what the Drupal team may theoretically contribute?


I don't know whether I got the correct "tone" for this mail; I hope that
it conveys some deeper thoughts that might be helpful ... finally, it is
up to you and the Drupal team how to use/interpret the content. All I
can do, is to give you some insight what I perceive.

Kind regards,
Christoph


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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Regroup and further development of the website(s)

> I don't know whether I got the correct "tone" for this mail; I hope that
> it conveys some deeper thoughts that might be helpful ... finally, it is
> up to you and the Drupal team how to use/interpret the content. All I
> can do, is to give you some insight what I perceive.

I don't believe you did get the correct "tone" of my email. Please
don't snip sentences in my email out of context.
Please re-read the paragraph in full and do not 'snip' parts out. It
is about equality and respect within the community.

My Original Email:
>>Personally I am not interested in what anyone has contributed previously. People come from all walks of life and nobody is a master of all trades.
>>If somebody, anybody has a constructive suggestion or valid idea I am willing to consider and embrace it with solid work and encouragement.
>>In my experience if someone approaches a task or discussion from an inflammatory or derogatory point of view, they have near nothing to offer.

>So what do I perceive? Is there something I am able to "measure"?

The context of this email was not about Drupal or any specific
contribution. "Measuring" in context refers to a certain part of the
male anatomy.
I am interested in progress, not ego.

By 'regardless of outcome', I meant whether it is implemented or not.
Of course changes that do not benefit the community/product will not
be implemented.
I am always interested in constructive conversations. Constructive
conversations can also result in not doing something. This email was
simply about the communication methods, especially on the website
mailing list.

>So, referring to your statement, a rhetorical question: Why should we be
>interested in what the Drupal team may theoretically contribute?

This is the exact communication attitude I was referring to in the
email. All members need to be open to new ideas. LibreOffice is not
the OOo community, we are a new community which comes with great
opportunity.
I am always interested in good ideas regardless of the originator. I
will listen to experience, I will listen to considered view points.
The email was simply stating that I ignore ego and will likely learn
to ignore anyone with a derogatory attitude towards any other members.

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Regroup and further development of the website(s)

In reply to this post by klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
Le 2011-01-07 13:58, ol klaus-jürgen weghorn a écrit :

> Hi Marc,
> Am 07.01.2011 18:12, schrieb Marc Paré:
>> Le 2011-01-07 10:30, ol klaus-jürgen weghorn a écrit :
>>> Hi Marc,
>>> Am 07.01.2011 08:17, schrieb Marc Paré:
>>>>
>>>> I beg to differ. There was a group of website members willing to help
>>>> out and had their names listed on the Silverstripe team wiki page
>>>> membership roster. Now, I can no longer seem to find the wiki page
>>> Do you look for this site:
>>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Tasks_and_volunteers ?
>>>
>>> Greetings
>>> k-j
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Thanks. Yes.
> De rien.
>
> This way you will find it in the wiki:
> Left navbar: click 'website'
> and then take the Point 5.3 'Tasks and volunteers' and then you will
> find it the next time. [1]
>
> k-j
>
> [1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website#Tasks_and_volunteers
>

Thanks for the pointers.

Marc


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