Re: [Bug 46279] Show restart message after extension installation or update menu automatically

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jan iversen jan iversen
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Re: [Bug 46279] Show restart message after extension installation or update menu automatically

Hi

Following our good discussion in the last ESC meeting, we have another example of how to demotivate a new contributor.

When a easyhack no longer has “needsDevEval” and “needsUIEval” is should be considered an accepted easyhack with sufficient implementation details.
When a patch has been submitted to gerrit and has been reviewed (in this case it pended quite long in gerrit) and has been merged, we should not start to discuss how the implementation should be on the BZ Issue.

Of course we all learn, and sometimes when we see the effect of an implementation, we realise how it should have been done, this is natural and not a problem. BUT please do not reopen the easyhack and do not suggest to revert it, instead take the positive approach and:

make a new easyhack, describing how the current status can be enhanced/changed.

That way we do not tell a new contributor his/hers work is rubbish (another less polite word for “revert”). Please remember the contributor did the best to follow the demands, so the problem is that the easyhack was accepted (in 2012) and nobody cared to give more implementation advice, before the work was done.

Sorry for a frank mail on a friday afternoon, but this is slowly becoming a bigger problem. We have enough problems helping new contributors become skilled LO developers, there are absolutely no need to create more problems.

rgds
jan I.


On 14 Oct 2016, at 19:10, [hidden email] wrote:


Comment # 22 on bug 46279 from [hidden email]
As discussed in the UX meeting Oct/14 the recommendation is to revert the
patch; and in general to add the restart option to the extension specification.


You are receiving this mail because:
  • You are on the CC list for the bug.


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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: [Bug 46279] Show restart message after extension installation or update menu automatically

Hi Jan,

Jan Iversen wrote on 14-10-16 19:53:

> Following our good discussion in the last ESC meeting, we have another
> example of how to demotivate a new contributor.

I share your concerns about how this all must be properly communicated.
Apart from that:

> When a easyhack no longer has “needsDevEval” and “needsUIEval” is should

this specific issue has not been discussed by UX, didn't have
needsUIEval and I commented on the problem within three weeks of the
commit, because I stumbled over the problem in a daily build. Now it is
three months after my first comment, and I asked for response
repeatedly.. and it today that it's been discussed in the UX team.
(Where it also was announced last week IIRC..)
We know problems caused by unpolished but committed hacks that affected
(..s) users for years. So I want to express my concern on that side of
the situation too.
And IMO it's not optimal that there was no response (in the issue or
direct) on the noticed problem.

> make a new easyhack, describing how the current status can be
> enhanced/changed.

In general I say yes, when it's a glitch.

> That way we do not tell a new contributor his/hers work is rubbish
> (another less polite word for “revert”). Please remember the contributor

So that could have been done earlier.

> Sorry for a frank mail on a friday afternoon, but this is slowly
> becoming a bigger problem. We have enough problems helping new
> contributors become skilled LO developers, there are absolutely no need
> to create more problems.

I hope my view on the situation does help a bit in our mutual effort :)

Ciao - Cor


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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: [Bug 46279] Show restart message after extension installation or update menu automatically

Hi all,

Cor Nouws wrote on 14-10-16 20:37:
> Hi Jan,
>
> Jan Iversen wrote on 14-10-16 19:53:
>
>> Following our good discussion in the last ESC meeting, we have another
>> example [...]

> [...]
> I hope my view on the situation does help a bit in our mutual effort :)


So it's good that there is a clear procedure * and that based on that we
can say: if an easyHack is done and closed, it should not have
unexpected unwanted side effects. In the unexpected case that there
appears to be a need for a follow-up, that should be done in a new
issue/easyHack.

May I take the freedom to suggest three things to further enhance this
situation?

- It might well be that in the existing easyHacks, there are some that
didn't go through the now set careful procedure.
To check if there are issues overseen, maybe we can ask 'UX' to do a
review of the existing (older) easyHacks with relation to UI?

- Since we want to be maximal encouraging to new hackers, it is unsure
who follow-up issues will be handled of course.
To prevent that (in some rare cases) favoring more devs will result in
poor UX, maybe we can ask 'dev' to commit themselves to fixing those, if
these are not picked up in reasonable time by an easyHacker?

- In the end we can not prevent that someone reopens a fixed easyHack.
Might that happen, let 'us' react soon and friendly (maybe via direct
mail) explaining and such.

Does that make sense?

Ciao - Cor


*) quoting jani:
1) somebody add keyword “easyhack” to a bug
2) next morning, it is in my mail (automatically), and I look at it and
    - needUIEval, if the change has anything to do with the UI or the
workflow
    - needDevEval, if there are no code pointers or I am unsure if the
suggestion is a valid development way.
3) needUIEval is removed only by the UI team
4) needDevEval is normally removed by me or a core developer.
5) At this point the easyhack is public


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jan iversen jan iversen
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Re: [Bug 46279] Show restart message after extension installation or update menu automatically


> - It might well be that in the existing easyHacks, there are some that
> didn't go through the now set careful procedure.
> To check if there are issues overseen, maybe we can ask 'UX' to do a
> review of the existing (older) easyHacks with relation to UI?
Please set the needsUIEval keyword on any easyHack the UX team want to review. Doing so, removes the easyHack from the list contributors use when searching.

In my mind it is better adding needsUIEval when in doubt and thus avoid problems later.

Remark for new easyHacks where UI or workflow are involved, I (among others) set the needsUIEval keyword.

Just to be complete, for gerrit patches (which may or may not be based on BZ) from contributors where UI or workflow are involved, part of the UX team are added as reviewers.

>
> - Since we want to be maximal encouraging to new hackers, it is unsure
> who follow-up issues will be handled of course.
> To prevent that (in some rare cases) favoring more devs will result in
> poor UX, maybe we can ask 'dev' to commit themselves to fixing those, if
> these are not picked up in reasonable time by an easyHacker?
Why would we handle the follow up easy hacks different, than other bugs, gerrit patches etc (about 1/5 of contributions from non committers are not based on BZ).

In my experience, it is more likely that a gerrit patch (or direct commit), needs a follow up, than a easyhack.

While I understand and share the concern, I see it being rather difficult to make our community make such a commitment. Would be nice though, and if successful it should be expanded to cover critical bugs as well.

I think it is important not to put demands on our community, we all want to have fun while working with LO, because it is (for most people) done in our spare time,  which means most do what they like to do and not what they are told to do (that is for $DAYJOB).

> - In the end we can not prevent that someone reopens a fixed easyHack.
> Might that happen, let 'us' react soon and friendly (maybe via direct
> mail) explaining and such.

The ‘us’ in this situation is part of my daily monitoring, and based on the last ESC meeting, I close such bugs (with few exceptions), with a note about please make a followup bug.

Another possibility is to limit who can reopen a bug, that would motivate people to make a new bug.

Rgds
jan I.

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Bjoern Michaelsen Bjoern Michaelsen
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Re: [Bug 46279] Show restart message after extension installation or update menu automatically

In reply to this post by Cor Nouws
Hi,

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 02:30:08PM +0200, Cor Nouws wrote:
> - It might well be that in the existing easyHacks, there are some that
> didn't go through the now set careful procedure.

I assume that when devs suggest EasyHacks, they have the best intentions.
Combined with the fact that our existing UI is generally not considered perfect,
the chances of an EasyHack suggested with good intentions improving the product
are much, much higher than hurting it. Even if the particular result
might not be perfect, it will in general be _better than the status quo_.

So while UX having an eye on EasyHacks is a Good Things(tm) in general (esp.
for newly filed ones), I dont see existing EasyHacks much of a priority for UX.
IMHO UX should priotize putting to use its _own_ resources for maximum impact
on the product using the least resources from elsewhere as possible -- with
regards to EasyHacks, that ideally means filing and championing EasyHacks UX
can mentor itself[1].

LibreOffice UX is a big field, with lots of improvement possible all over the
place still, so I dont think that there would not be anything left to be done there ...

Best,

Bjoern

[1] This includes taking into account that small-scope EasyHacks that are
    attractive to the taker are very likely to be picked faster up by a
    volunteer than those that are not. And the success of the UX team is ultimately
    measured in what ends up in the product, not it what has been specified, but
    left unimplemented.
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Bjoern Michaelsen Bjoern Michaelsen
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Re: [Bug 46279] Show restart message after extension installation or update menu automatically

Hi,

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 03:43:35PM +0200, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:
> the chances of an EasyHack suggested with good intentions improving the product
> are much, much higher than hurting it.

Since this came up on IRC: I meant "an EasyHack suggested with good intentions
by a dev willing to mentor it themselves ..." -- not wild-assed suggestions
from random users who never build the product that have no idea how hard or
easy it might be to implement a specific proposal.

As Jan reviewed the existing EasyHack already rather carefully, I expect the
existing ones all to be actionable and with a mentor.


Best,

Bjoern
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