Re: Can't find setting

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Brian Barker Brian Barker
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Re: Can't find setting

At 21:23 14/08/2013 -0500, Michael Morse wrote:
>For some reason, I am no longer able to make a series of spaces
>using the space bar.  After one space, pressing the space bar will
>not advance the cursor.

Rejoice!  This is how all word processors should work.  Countable
spaces exist only in Typewriterland.  With proper type faces, the
space between words is anything from a minimum value up to whatever
is required to range across a line.  The spacebar no longer
represents an actual amount of space but merely indicates a word
break in the text.  If you need to space material differently, you do
it properly - using tabs, tables, frames, or whatever.

>I don't remember changing anything so I have no idea where to even
>begin to look for whatever setting I assume I must have changed to
>cause this behavior.  Can someone help me how please?

Yes: forget about multiple spaces and set up proper spacing using the
correct facilities of your word processor, whichever that is.

(Oh, but if you really want to fossilize in Typewriterland in the
previous millennium, go to Tools | AutoCorrect Options... | Options
and remove the tick from "Ignore double spaces".  And hang your head in shame.)

;^)

I trust this helps.

Brian Barker


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James Knott James Knott
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Re: Can't find setting

Brian Barker wrote:
> Rejoice!  This is how all word processors should work.  Countable
> spaces exist only in Typewriterland.  With proper type faces, the
> space between words is anything from a minimum value up to whatever is
> required to range across a line.  The spacebar no longer represents an
> actual amount of space but merely indicates a word break in the text.
> If you need to space material differently, you do it properly - using
> tabs, tables, frames, or whatever.

I have long been in the habit of putting a double space between
sentences.  I learned that in a typing class, IIRC.  What's the proper
proceedure in LO?


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Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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Re: Can't find setting

The typographic standard is to only use one space between sentences with
proportionally spaced fonts. However, if you use a fixed-width font, like
Courier, then using two spaces is appropriate. But, you should only use a
fixed-width font if you are required to by some outside party.

Virgil

-----Original Message-----
From: James Knott
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 8:23 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Can't find setting

Brian Barker wrote:
> Rejoice!  This is how all word processors should work.  Countable
> spaces exist only in Typewriterland.  With proper type faces, the
> space between words is anything from a minimum value up to whatever is
> required to range across a line.  The spacebar no longer represents an
> actual amount of space but merely indicates a word break in the text.
> If you need to space material differently, you do it properly - using
> tabs, tables, frames, or whatever.

I have long been in the habit of putting a double space between
sentences.  I learned that in a typing class, IIRC.  What's the proper
proceedure in LO?


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Tom Tom
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by James Knott
Hi :)
That is not really something defined by the word-processor. 

I think current fashion is to use a single space to make it less obvious where a new sentence begins and thus mke it marginally more difficult to read.  I still tend to use 2 spaces.  Doubtless, fashion will change back to the way you&i learned, or maybe go to a new paragraph per sentence as i have seen some people do in mainstream articles. 

End of sentences is not really what Brian was talking about.  I'm sure you have seen tables and all sorts of things that are obviously meant to be lined up but somehow end up raggedy. 
Regards from
Tom :) 






>________________________________
> From: James Knott <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2013, 13:23
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Can't find setting
>
>
>Brian Barker wrote:
>> Rejoice!  This is how all word processors should work.  Countable
>> spaces exist only in Typewriterland.  With proper type faces, the
>> space between words is anything from a minimum value up to whatever is
>> required to range across a line.  The spacebar no longer represents an
>> actual amount of space but merely indicates a word break in the text.
>> If you need to space material differently, you do it properly - using
>> tabs, tables, frames, or whatever.
>
>I have long been in the habit of putting a double space between
>sentences.  I learned that in a typing class, IIRC.  What's the proper
>proceedure in LO?
>
>
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>
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Ruth Ann Ruth Ann
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by James Knott
On 8/15/2013 8:23 AM, James Knott wrote:
> I have long been in the habit of putting a double space between
> sentences.  I learned that in a typing class, IIRC.  What's the proper
> proceedure in LO?

I remember reading several years ago that the double spaces are no
longer needed because the software "knows" to adjust the spacing. So I
would say that with the  modern text editors, the proper procedure would
be to just use a single space and let the software handle the spacing.
If you forget and use a double space, well, I guess the software will
handle that too. ;-)

Ruth Ann, Cincinnati, OH USA

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James Knott James Knott
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Virgil Arrington
Virgil Arrington wrote:
> The typographic standard is to only use one space between sentences
> with proportionally spaced fonts.

In the old hand set type (which I have worked with) there were different
width spaces (en & em quads), depending on where they were used.
Typically, an en quad was used between words and an em quad between
sentences.  The names refer to the width of upper case N and M
characters.  So, the space between words was as wide as an N and between
sentences, an M.  There were also wider ones, such as double M and
triple M.  Typesetting machines, such as the Linotype also had provision
for different width spaces.




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James Knott James Knott
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Ruth Ann
Ruth Ann wrote:
> I remember reading several years ago that the double spaces are no
> longer needed because the software "knows" to adjust the spacing. So I
> would say that with the  modern text editors, the proper procedure
> would be to just use a single space and let the software handle the
> spacing. If you forget and use a double space, well, I guess the
> software will handle that too. ;-)

So, how would it tell the difference between the end of a sentence,
terminated with a period and a sentence containing a period used as part
of an abbreviation such as "Dr." or "etc."?


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James Knott James Knott
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Tom
Tom Davies wrote:
> I think current fashion is to use a single space to make it less obvious where a new sentence begins and thus mke it marginally more difficult to read.  I still tend to use 2 spaces.  Doubtless, fashion will change back to the way you&i learned, or maybe go to a new paragraph per sentence as i have seen some people do in mainstream articles.  

There have been many occasions when I have struggled to read something
where proper sentence and paragraph form (not to mention spelling and
punctuation) were not followed.  There's a reason for such structures
and that is to make it easier to read and comprehend things.

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Ruth Ann Ruth Ann
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by James Knott
On 8/15/2013 10:28 AM, James Knott wrote:
> So, how would it tell the difference between the end of a sentence,
> terminated with a period and a sentence containing a period used as part
> of an abbreviation such as "Dr." or "etc."?
Having just spent several weeks learning all about Object Oriented
Programming, I would answer that by saying it should not matter how it
can tell the difference, but only that it does. ;-)

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Ruth Ann Stewart, Cincinnati, OH


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wagtail wagtail
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Brian Barker
I wouldn't have thought to introduce the topic of letterpress printing
here, but since James Knott has, replete with monstrous errors,
correction is in order.

No letterpress compositor would employ an en quad as an interword space,
except possibly when justifying.

A standard job case contains, along with the various quads, typemetal
spaces in 3 sizes: 3-to-the-em, 4-to-the-em,
and 5-to-the-em. There are also "thin" spaces, not proportional to the
font size: "brass" at 1 point, "copper" at 1/2 point.

These spacings are often written as 3/em, &c., but are pronounced as
fully written out, to avoid confusion with the 3em and suchlike quads.

A 3-to-the-emis the absolute standard interword space, which is why they
are located in the large and central compartment as shown here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Job_Case 
<cid:[hidden email]>. (You have to scroll down a
bit to see the clear diagram provided.)

As to intersentence spacing, the battle rages on, as we have seen in
this forum. Personally, I use an em quad with handset type. More arcana
can be found at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing 
<cid:[hidden email]>.

trj

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James Knott James Knott
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Re: Can't find setting

Miss Keating wrote:

> No letterpress compositor would employ an en quad as an interword
> space, except possibly when justifying.
>
> A standard job case contains, along with the various quads, typemetal
> spaces in 3 sizes: 3-to-the-em, 4-to-the-em,
> and 5-to-the-em. There are also "thin" spaces, not proportional to the
> font size: "brass" at 1 point, "copper" at 1/2 point.
>
> These spacings are often written as 3/em, &c., but are pronounced as
> fully written out, to avoid confusion with the 3em and suchlike quads.


I wish I had one of those old typesetting books handy, that I used to
read.  They seem a bit scarce now.  ;-)

One thing I noticed in that article about the California job case.  It
says 'except for the "J" and "U", moved to the lowest line to help avoid
confusing them with "I" and "V" respectively'.  The way I learned it,
from those books, was the J and U were added to the alphabet after the
type case was invented and so placed after Z.

It's been over 40 years since I've done any typesetting.



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Screwbottle Screwbottle
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by wagtail
In this thread, and as Miss Keating has corrected some reference of
actual printing of the hard copy type, we are forgetting punctuation and
a language layout in how it was and is handwritten, how it has been
adapted for typesetting  / letterpress printing, and hey presto how we
are all communicating to each other right now, digitally.

Everyone is talking about and applying laws that are about sensible
grammar, correctly and incorrectly, and which to a degree have to be
applied to the digital word. But raw computer code gives no hoot for
spacing, it is actually a hindrance and adds drag to the speed of
processing. Spacing, punctuation etc. are for the human eye, as someone
has posted, in creating fluid reading and interpretation, generally
called the white space of a document. Today many programmers, and I on a
very small scale, as I am not an involved programmer, can introduce
conditions in code to strip or add spaces, which is a piece of code by
the way, computers do not know what is a white space or blank, it's
treated as a character.

So we need to get around what we are referring to when it comes to
digital text or the written / printed word.

Andrew Brown

On 15/08/2013 06:25 PM, Miss Keating wrote:

> I wouldn't have thought to introduce the topic of letterpress printing
> here, but since James Knott has, replete with monstrous errors,
> correction is in order.
>
> No letterpress compositor would employ an en quad as an interword
> space, except possibly when justifying.
>
> A standard job case contains, along with the various quads, typemetal
> spaces in 3 sizes: 3-to-the-em, 4-to-the-em,
> and 5-to-the-em. There are also "thin" spaces, not proportional to the
> font size: "brass" at 1 point, "copper" at 1/2 point.
>
> These spacings are often written as 3/em, &c., but are pronounced as
> fully written out, to avoid confusion with the 3em and suchlike quads.
>
> A 3-to-the-emis the absolute standard interword space, which is why
> they are located in the large and central compartment as shown here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Job_Case 
> <cid:[hidden email]>. (You have to scroll down a
> bit to see the clear diagram provided.)
>
> As to intersentence spacing, the battle rages on, as we have seen in
> this forum. Personally, I use an em quad with handset type. More
> arcana can be found at:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing 
> <cid:[hidden email]>.
>
> trj
>


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Dave Liesse Dave Liesse
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Brian Barker
Well, that's what someone decided, and it is the standard for HTML, but
it still is not universally accepted.  A double space, whatever minimal
width the space is, makes it clear that a sentence has ended.  There is
an obvious difference from a single space following an abbreviation, for
example.  I don't expect a word processor to eliminate extra spaces (and
I long ago disabled that "correction").

Dave



On 8/14/2013 20:38, Brian Barker wrote:

> At 21:23 14/08/2013 -0500, Michael Morse wrote:
>> For some reason, I am no longer able to make a series of spaces using
>> the space bar.  After one space, pressing the space bar will not
>> advance the cursor.
>
> Rejoice!  This is how all word processors should work.  Countable
> spaces exist only in Typewriterland.  With proper type faces, the
> space between words is anything from a minimum value up to whatever is
> required to range across a line.  The spacebar no longer represents an
> actual amount of space but merely indicates a word break in the text.  
> If you need to space material differently, you do it properly - using
> tabs, tables, frames, or whatever.
>
>> I don't remember changing anything so I have no idea where to even
>> begin to look for whatever setting I assume I must have changed to
>> cause this behavior.  Can someone help me how please?
>
> Yes: forget about multiple spaces and set up proper spacing using the
> correct facilities of your word processor, whichever that is.
>
> (Oh, but if you really want to fossilize in Typewriterland in the
> previous millennium, go to Tools | AutoCorrect Options... | Options
> and remove the tick from "Ignore double spaces".  And hang your head
> in shame.)
>
> ;^)
>
> I trust this helps.
>
> Brian Barker
>
>


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Dave Liesse Dave Liesse
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Ruth Ann
Which would be fine, but it doesn't.

Dave



On 8/15/2013 09:17, Ruth Ann wrote:
> On 8/15/2013 10:28 AM, James Knott wrote:
>> So, how would it tell the difference between the end of a sentence,
>> terminated with a period and a sentence containing a period used as part
>> of an abbreviation such as "Dr." or "etc."?
> Having just spent several weeks learning all about Object Oriented
> Programming, I would answer that by saying it should not matter how it
> can tell the difference, but only that it does. ;-)
>


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Screwbottle Screwbottle
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Dave Liesse
Umm!! No Dave, that's what thousands of years of language and millions
of literary academics and scholars, since time of man to present decided
on in language standards, especially as we are referring to here, the
English language.

Nothing to do with just HTML, a computer born programming language and
not a literary language. The single space IS universally accepted as the
norm for correct spacing in whatever medium we are writing / typing /
printing in. It's what individuals do and teach incorrectly, but
unchallenged on the whole, in adding double spaces between sentences.
What one does and what is a standard is two different things.

Regards

Andrew Brown

On 15/08/2013 08:04 PM, Dave Liesse wrote:

> Well, that's what someone decided, and it is the standard for HTML,
> but it still is not universally accepted.  A double space, whatever
> minimal width the space is, makes it clear that a sentence has ended.  
> There is an obvious difference from a single space following an
> abbreviation, for example.  I don't expect a word processor to
> eliminate extra spaces (and I long ago disabled that "correction").
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> On 8/14/2013 20:38, Brian Barker wrote:
>> At 21:23 14/08/2013 -0500, Michael Morse wrote:
>>> For some reason, I am no longer able to make a series of spaces
>>> using the space bar.  After one space, pressing the space bar will
>>> not advance the cursor.
>>
>> Rejoice!  This is how all word processors should work. Countable
>> spaces exist only in Typewriterland.  With proper type faces, the
>> space between words is anything from a minimum value up to whatever
>> is required to range across a line.  The spacebar no longer
>> represents an actual amount of space but merely indicates a word
>> break in the text.  If you need to space material differently, you do
>> it properly - using tabs, tables, frames, or whatever.
>>
>>> I don't remember changing anything so I have no idea where to even
>>> begin to look for whatever setting I assume I must have changed to
>>> cause this behavior.  Can someone help me how please?
>>
>> Yes: forget about multiple spaces and set up proper spacing using the
>> correct facilities of your word processor, whichever that is.
>>
>> (Oh, but if you really want to fossilize in Typewriterland in the
>> previous millennium, go to Tools | AutoCorrect Options... | Options
>> and remove the tick from "Ignore double spaces".  And hang your head
>> in shame.)
>>
>> ;^)
>>
>> I trust this helps.
>>
>> Brian Barker
>>
>>
>
>


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Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by James Knott
I got my information from Robert Bringhurst's book "The Elements of
Typographic Style."

I have noticed that older books from the 19th century had wider spacing
after sentence ending punctuation. Newer books, say from the mid 20th
century on, seem to have narrower spacing between sentences.

Virgil



-----Original Message-----
From: James Knott
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 10:22 AM
To: LibreOffice
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Can't find setting

Virgil Arrington wrote:
> The typographic standard is to only use one space between sentences
> with proportionally spaced fonts.

In the old hand set type (which I have worked with) there were different
width spaces (en & em quads), depending on where they were used.
Typically, an en quad was used between words and an em quad between
sentences.  The names refer to the width of upper case N and M
characters.  So, the space between words was as wide as an N and between
sentences, an M.  There were also wider ones, such as double M and
triple M.  Typesetting machines, such as the Linotype also had provision
for different width spaces.




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Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Ruth Ann
Ruth,

I think you may be right about digital typesetting programs like LaTeX. By
default, it automatically inserts a wider space after sentence ending
punctuation. This can be disabled with the \frenchspacing command.

However, word processors, like LO, aren't as smart. I don't believe they
make any adjustments after sentence ending punctuation. I think most
typographic experts would recommend using only one space when preparing a
document with a word processor and proportionally spaced type.

Virgil

-----Original Message-----
From: Ruth Ann
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 9:11 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Can't find setting

On 8/15/2013 8:23 AM, James Knott wrote:
> I have long been in the habit of putting a double space between
> sentences.  I learned that in a typing class, IIRC.  What's the proper
> proceedure in LO?

I remember reading several years ago that the double spaces are no
longer needed because the software "knows" to adjust the spacing. So I
would say that with the  modern text editors, the proper procedure would
be to just use a single space and let the software handle the spacing.
If you forget and use a double space, well, I guess the software will
handle that too. ;-)

Ruth Ann, Cincinnati, OH USA

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Bruce Carlson-2 Bruce Carlson-2
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RE: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Virgil Arrington
An interesting observation Virgil.

When I went to school, mind you it was several lifetimes ago and in the backwoods of the Australian outback so it may not be too relevant to anywhere else on the planet but, I was told to always leave a double space at the end of every sentence. That was with hand writing, before typewriters were invented, at least there were none within several hundred miles of where I grew up.
These days with modern word processors I just don't bother to even try and insert two spaces at the end of sentences but I suppose I should, it certainly looks nicer and may even be proper.
It would be nice if modern word processors at least provided the option of a setting to do this automatically. Perhaps it should be the default setting.

(please note no double spaces used in this text)

Cheers all,

Bruce Carlson

-----Original Message-----
From: Virgil Arrington [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013 10:29 AM
To: James Knott; LibreOffice
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Can't find setting

I got my information from Robert Bringhurst's book "The Elements of Typographic Style."

I have noticed that older books from the 19th century had wider spacing after sentence ending punctuation. Newer books, say from the mid 20th century on, seem to have narrower spacing between sentences.

Virgil



-----Original Message-----
From: James Knott
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 10:22 AM
To: LibreOffice
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Can't find setting

Virgil Arrington wrote:
> The typographic standard is to only use one space between sentences
> with proportionally spaced fonts.

In the old hand set type (which I have worked with) there were different width spaces (en & em quads), depending on where they were used.
Typically, an en quad was used between words and an em quad between sentences.  The names refer to the width of upper case N and M characters.  So, the space between words was as wide as an N and between sentences, an M.  There were also wider ones, such as double M and triple M.  Typesetting machines, such as the Linotype also had provision for different width spaces.




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James Knott James Knott
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Screwbottle
Andrew Brown wrote:
> on in language standards, especially as we are referring to here, the
> English language.
>
> Nothing to do with just HTML, a computer born programming language and
> not a literary language. The single space IS universally accepted as
> the norm for correct spacing in whatever medium we are writing /
> typing / printing in. It's what individuals do and teach incorrectly,
> but unchallenged on the whole, in adding double spaces between
> sentences. What one does and what is a standard is two different things.

A wider space between sentences more clearly delineates the sentence and
makes it easier to read.

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Tim Deaton Tim Deaton
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Screwbottle
When I was learning such things back in the 1960s and 70s, a single
space between sentences would have been marked as wrong.  Things do have
a way of constantly changing (evolving or deteriorating, depending on
your opinion), but I still stick to the two-space standard after the
sentence.  I think that makes things more readable, and I believe
readability should be the paramount goal.

-- Tim Deaton


On 8/15/2013 2:30 PM, Andrew Brown wrote:

> Umm!! No Dave, that's what thousands of years of language and millions
> of literary academics and scholars, since time of man to present
> decided on in language standards, especially as we are referring to
> here, the English language.
>
> Nothing to do with just HTML, a computer born programming language and
> not a literary language. The single space IS universally accepted as
> the norm for correct spacing in whatever medium we are writing /
> typing / printing in. It's what individuals do and teach incorrectly,
> but unchallenged on the whole, in adding double spaces between
> sentences. What one does and what is a standard is two different things.
>
> Regards
>
> Andrew Brown
>
> On 15/08/2013 08:04 PM, Dave Liesse wrote:
>> Well, that's what someone decided, and it is the standard for HTML,
>> but it still is not universally accepted.  A double space, whatever
>> minimal width the space is, makes it clear that a sentence has
>> ended.  There is an obvious difference from a single space following
>> an abbreviation, for example.  I don't expect a word processor to
>> eliminate extra spaces (and I long ago disabled that "correction").
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/14/2013 20:38, Brian Barker wrote:
>>> At 21:23 14/08/2013 -0500, Michael Morse wrote:
>>>> For some reason, I am no longer able to make a series of spaces
>>>> using the space bar.  After one space, pressing the space bar will
>>>> not advance the cursor.
>>>
>>> Rejoice!  This is how all word processors should work. Countable
>>> spaces exist only in Typewriterland.  With proper type faces, the
>>> space between words is anything from a minimum value up to whatever
>>> is required to range across a line.  The spacebar no longer
>>> represents an actual amount of space but merely indicates a word
>>> break in the text.  If you need to space material differently, you
>>> do it properly - using tabs, tables, frames, or whatever.
>>>
>>>> I don't remember changing anything so I have no idea where to even
>>>> begin to look for whatever setting I assume I must have changed to
>>>> cause this behavior.  Can someone help me how please?
>>>
>>> Yes: forget about multiple spaces and set up proper spacing using
>>> the correct facilities of your word processor, whichever that is.
>>>
>>> (Oh, but if you really want to fossilize in Typewriterland in the
>>> previous millennium, go to Tools | AutoCorrect Options... | Options
>>> and remove the tick from "Ignore double spaces". And hang your head
>>> in shame.)
>>>
>>> ;^)
>>>
>>> I trust this helps.
>>>
>>> Brian Barker
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


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