Re: Can't find setting

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Brian Barker Brian Barker
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Re: Can't find setting

At 08:23 15/08/2013 -0400, James Knott wrote:
>I have long been in the habit of putting a double space between sentences.

Indeed - and so have I.

>I learned that in a typing class, IIRC.

Yes, but was that on a typewriter, where double spaces make sense?

>What's the proper procedure in LO?

It's entirely up to every user what s/he does, of course.  There are
two main points, I think.

o I would suggest that two spaces are probably useful with
fixed-pitch text as on a typewriter, especially when the
sentence-ending full stop will be spaced so far from the last
character of the sentence.  So that's why we all learned that
way.  But that no longer applies with proportional fonts.  (I still
use double spaces in e-mail messages, since I send them as plain text
and have no control how they are displayed by recipients.)

o In justified text, there is no such thing as a "single space"
anyway: the size of the space between words depends on what happens
to occur in the line.  So there is no meaning to "two spaces" either:
your word processor may permit you to include two consecutive space
characters, but two spaces on one line could end up narrower than a
single space on the next.

I'm really only throwing out the ideas, of course: it's up to
individuals what they choose to do.  (You'll have noticed my
emoticon.)  But it is worth dissuading novice word processor users
not to attempt to use multiple spaces to indent text, for example:
apart from being messy, this again will simply not work effectively
in justified text or when rendered on another system..  The original
questioner asked about "a series of spaces" (not necessarily double);
he could have been attempting to line up text in columns, where he
should (and could easily) have been using tabs or tables instead.

Brian Barker


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Brian Barker Brian Barker
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Tim Deaton
At 00:22 16/08/2013 -0400, Tim Deaton wrote:
>When I was learning such things back in the 1960s and 70s, a single
>space between sentences would have been marked as wrong.

But that would have been on a real typewriter - or at least with a
teacher who had yet to emigrate from Typewriterland.

Brian Barker


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Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Brian Barker
On 08/16/2013 03:06 AM, Brian Barker wrote:

> o I would suggest that two spaces are probably useful with fixed-pitch
> text as on a typewriter, especially when the sentence-ending full stop
> will be spaced so far from the last character of the sentence.  So
> that's why we all learned that way.  But that no longer applies with
> proportional fonts.  (I still use double spaces in e-mail messages,
> since I send them as plain text and have no control how they are
> displayed by recipients.)
>
> o In justified text, there is no such thing as a "single space"
> anyway: the size of the space between words depends on what happens to
> occur in the line.  So there is no meaning to "two spaces" either:
> your word processor may permit you to include two consecutive space
> characters, but two spaces on one line could end up narrower than a
> single space on the next.
>
>
> Brian Barker
>
>

+1

Very well put, Brian, especially your observations about justified text.
Using two spaces on a justified line can sometimes end up with a grand
canyon of space between sentences.

A quick online search uncovered the following article about the
evolution of the practice (along with a whole slew of articles that agreed):

www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.html

Virgil

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Tom Tom
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Bruce Carlson-2
Hi :)
One practical up-shot of this is that when i collect articles for my companies newsletter i;
1.  Paste into Writer as "unformatted text and apply styles
2.  Search&replace all ". " (single spaces) with ".  " (double space) but that makes some into triple spaces!  So, 
3.  Search&replace all ".   " (triples) with ".  "
4.  Then look through for anything weird. 

I don't have to worry about other ways of ending a sentence because we carefully avoid making our newsletter look remotely interesting enough to read.  Certainly no double or triple exclamation marks and as few pictures as possible!!  A bit like the leaflets made to attract people to LibreOffice. 
Regards from
Tom :) 





>________________________________
> From: Bruce Carlson <[hidden email]>
>To: LibreOffice <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 2:07
>Subject: RE: [libreoffice-users] Can't find setting
>
>
>An interesting observation Virgil.
>
>When I went to school, mind you it was several lifetimes ago and in the backwoods of the Australian outback so it may not be too relevant to anywhere else on the planet but, I was told to always leave a double space at the end of every sentence. That was with hand writing, before typewriters were invented, at least there were none within several hundred miles of where I grew up.
>These days with modern word processors I just don't bother to even try and insert two spaces at the end of sentences but I suppose I should, it certainly looks nicer and may even be proper.
>It would be nice if modern word processors at least provided the option of a setting to do this automatically. Perhaps it should be the default setting.
>
>(please note no double spaces used in this text)
>
>Cheers all,
>
>Bruce Carlson
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Virgil Arrington [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013 10:29 AM
>To: James Knott; LibreOffice
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Can't find setting
>
>I got my information from Robert Bringhurst's book "The Elements of Typographic Style."
>
>I have noticed that older books from the 19th century had wider spacing after sentence ending punctuation. Newer books, say from the mid 20th century on, seem to have narrower spacing between sentences.
>
>Virgil
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: James Knott
>Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 10:22 AM
>To: LibreOffice
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Can't find setting
>
>Virgil Arrington wrote:
>> The typographic standard is to only use one space between sentences
>> with proportionally spaced fonts.
>
>In the old hand set type (which I have worked with) there were different width spaces (en & em quads), depending on where they were used.
>Typically, an en quad was used between words and an em quad between sentences.  The names refer to the width of upper case N and M characters.  So, the space between words was as wide as an N and between sentences, an M.  There were also wider ones, such as double M and triple M.  Typesetting machines, such as the Linotype also had provision for different width spaces.
>
>
>
>
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Andrew Douglas Pitonyak Andrew Douglas Pitonyak
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Brian Barker
There are mixed opinions on what to do while using a computer. In
theory, I thought that the computer was assumed to do the spacing so you
need not add two spaces. This is especially true if you use a layout
where extra spacing is used to make proportional spacing look good.  In
HTML, extra spaces are flat out ignored. I stopped adding extra spaces
while using TeX and LaTeX back in the 80s, because the computer made
better spacing decisions than I ever could.

Perhaps OpenOffice variants are not there yet, but, on every
documentation project on which I have worked, I am pretty sure that we
were specifically directed to not add two spaces between sentences. Same
with my publisher, no extra spaces after sentences.

If you really like the extra spaces, add them. You will notice that I
placed an extra blank line between my paragraphs in this email. Then
again, I never expected email to have great layout :-) While writing
documents, I try to set the paragraph style to set spacing
appropriately. I am always amazed at how many people do this in a word
processor by simply adding blank lines in the document.


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krackedpress krackedpress
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Brian Barker

I have been to college 6 times.  Three for degrees and twice to pick up
courses I wanted, one dropped out due to money issues and decided to not
go after that degree/major.  I had to take several English
writing-related classes.  The first degree required a typing course.  
Ever since then, on mainframes and the PCs, I was told to always use
double-spacing after sentences.  If I handed in a typed or
word-processed document and did not double space it, I was marked off
for not using the standard "format".  Also some required double-spacing
for the lines of text as well.

Yes, there are those people who do not like a double space after
sentences, due to the justifying of the text for a book or similar
printed "document".  Personally, I have a friend in the book editing
field and if the publisher wanted a single spaced manuscript, then all
you need to do is change a double space to a single one in you text
editor, like LO.  I have done that before. I tend to automatically add
the double space at the end of my sentences by 40+ years of typing on a
computer keyboard, dumb terminal or PC based.

Now as for changes in what it "proper" formatting styles, I noticed that
over the years, the "proper" ways of doing things, like footnotes and
the other non-paragraph items, seem to change over the years.  What was
done in the 70's and 80's was not "proper" in the 90's and '00's.

To be honest, you need people, like our documentation writers, to tell
us what is acceptable now.  They should be "up" on the current document
formating ideas.  But, if you were to talk to a newspaper writer, you
will find that they would be told that double spacing would waste
"column space".  For a book writer, writing 200+ page books, all of
those double spaces can add up several [or many] more pages to be
printed than the single spacing style.  For people who charge by the
page, then it could add up over a large number of copies.

So, personally I use double spacing.  THEN, if I was to have it
published, and needed to use single spacing, I would remove those extra
spaces from the manuscript.  That is simple enough today.

On 08/16/2013 03:06 AM, Brian Barker wrote:

> At 08:23 15/08/2013 -0400, James Knott wrote:
>> I have long been in the habit of putting a double space between
>> sentences.
>
> Indeed - and so have I.
>
>> I learned that in a typing class, IIRC.
>
> Yes, but was that on a typewriter, where double spaces make sense?
>
>> What's the proper procedure in LO?
>
> It's entirely up to every user what s/he does, of course.  There are
> two main points, I think.
>
> o I would suggest that two spaces are probably useful with fixed-pitch
> text as on a typewriter, especially when the sentence-ending full stop
> will be spaced so far from the last character of the sentence.  So
> that's why we all learned that way.  But that no longer applies with
> proportional fonts.  (I still use double spaces in e-mail messages,
> since I send them as plain text and have no control how they are
> displayed by recipients.)
>
> o In justified text, there is no such thing as a "single space"
> anyway: the size of the space between words depends on what happens to
> occur in the line.  So there is no meaning to "two spaces" either:
> your word processor may permit you to include two consecutive space
> characters, but two spaces on one line could end up narrower than a
> single space on the next.
>
> I'm really only throwing out the ideas, of course: it's up to
> individuals what they choose to do.  (You'll have noticed my
> emoticon.)  But it is worth dissuading novice word processor users not
> to attempt to use multiple spaces to indent text, for example: apart
> from being messy, this again will simply not work effectively in
> justified text or when rendered on another system..  The original
> questioner asked about "a series of spaces" (not necessarily double);
> he could have been attempting to line up text in columns, where he
> should (and could easily) have been using tabs or tables instead.
>
> Brian Barker
>
>


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Screwbottle Screwbottle
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Virgil Arrington
I could be an arrogant d??? and say I told you so, and I rest my case.
At least I am not so strong willed as that article in the URL you
provided Virgil 8-) .

But honestly I was taught from my first days learning a language some 50
years ago to use only one space, and through my time on this planet this
has been re-inforced, along seeing what it does in digital documents in
my career.

As an experiment for anyone to try, just use a document written in the
most basic of editors, the text editor, save it as a .txt, then open it
with a word processor, anyone of your choice, then save it to an .rtf
etc. Try this with a number of formats, then reverse the process, save
as a .doc first then try and port it down to a basic text document, and
watch how the core basic punctuation / spacing is altered so radically.
Even as to the way we create digital documents, it seems every app/tool
we use has a different concept on punctuation and spelling. Even this
email copied and pasted to a word processor has it's own rules and will
be altered in some way.

This is what I was trying to cover in my reply on this subject a few
emails back. Punctuation is becoming an issues in all forms of digital
documentation and different languages, and my personal observation, non
worse than the English language affected. Never mind adding that garbage
mobile phone texting vocabulary many seem to have adopted and use, along
with the total loss of punctuation in this as well, to the issues we are
discussing here.

Regards

Andrew Brown

On 16/08/2013 02:23 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

> On 08/16/2013 03:06 AM, Brian Barker wrote:
>> o I would suggest that two spaces are probably useful with
>> fixed-pitch text as on a typewriter, especially when the
>> sentence-ending full stop will be spaced so far from the last
>> character of the sentence.  So that's why we all learned that way.  
>> But that no longer applies with proportional fonts.  (I still use
>> double spaces in e-mail messages, since I send them as plain text and
>> have no control how they are displayed by recipients.)
>>
>> o In justified text, there is no such thing as a "single space"
>> anyway: the size of the space between words depends on what happens
>> to occur in the line.  So there is no meaning to "two spaces" either:
>> your word processor may permit you to include two consecutive space
>> characters, but two spaces on one line could end up narrower than a
>> single space on the next.
>>
>>
>> Brian Barker
>>
>>
>
> +1
>
> Very well put, Brian, especially your observations about justified
> text. Using two spaces on a justified line can sometimes end up with a
> grand canyon of space between sentences.
>
> A quick online search uncovered the following article about the
> evolution of the practice (along with a whole slew of articles that
> agreed):
>
> www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.html
>
> Virgil
>


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James Knott James Knott
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Brian Barker
Brian Barker wrote:
> I would suggest that two spaces are probably useful with fixed-pitch
> text as on a typewriter

A wider space between sentences is useful, no matter how the text is
created.  It clearly defines the beginning and end of a sentence and is
easier on the eyes.


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Tom Tom
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Re: Can't find setting

Hi :)
+1
but i think each person has to make their own mind up and it's not really a huge big deal imo. 

My main problem with it is when people are inconsistent within articles they present for publication.  Also i really prefer to try to make the whole of my company's newsletter consistent if possible. 
Regards from
Tom :) 





>________________________________
> From: James Knott <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013, 15:50
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Can't find setting
>
>
>Brian Barker wrote:
>> I would suggest that two spaces are probably useful with fixed-pitch
>> text as on a typewriter
>
>A wider space between sentences is useful, no matter how the text is
>created.  It clearly defines the beginning and end of a sentence and is
>easier on the eyes.
>
>
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>
>
>
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Felmon Davis Felmon Davis
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RE: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Bruce Carlson-2
On Fri, 16 Aug 2013, Bruce Carlson wrote:

> An interesting observation Virgil.
>
> When I went to school, mind you it was several lifetimes ago and in the backwoods of the Australian outback so it may not be too relevant to anywhere else on the planet but, I was told to always leave a double space at the end of every sentence. That was with hand writing, before typewriters were invented, at least there were none within several hundred miles of where I grew up.
> These days with modern word processors I just don't bother to even try and insert two spaces at the end of sentences but I suppose I should, it certainly looks nicer and may even be proper.
> It would be nice if modern word processors at least provided the option of a setting to do this automatically. Perhaps it should be the default setting.
>
> (please note no double spaces used in this text)
>
> Cheers all,
>
> Bruce Carlson

this whole discussion rather puzzles me. I'm out of it because I've
never heard of a rule requiring double spaces between sentences (born
and raised in the US).

esthetically double space insertion annoys me when I have to edit
texts but otherwise I don't notice so double spaces neither facilitate
nor inhibit reading as far as I am concerned.

but not to just prattle on about myself, I have pulled three texts
from a shelf, two are Oxford University and one is Johns Hopkins
University. no double spaces that I can discern. oh, here's one from
MIT Press; no double spaces. these are somewhat recent; here's an
older volume from Stanford University (1992), again, no double
spacing.

I gather from Brian Barker's (and others') posts that this has
something to do with typewriters - is this a rule one learns by taking
typewriter classes? (learned on a typewriter but can't remember if I
double-spaced or not.) is it a rule applied to some special area of
literature or publication?

F.

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Virgil Arrington [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013 10:29 AM
> To: James Knott; LibreOffice
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Can't find setting
>
> I got my information from Robert Bringhurst's book "The Elements of
> Typographic Style."
>
> I have noticed that older books from the 19th century had wider spacing after sentence ending punctuation. Newer books, say from the mid 20th century on, seem to have narrower spacing between sentences.
>
> Virgil
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Knott
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 10:22 AM
> To: LibreOffice
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Can't find setting
>
> Virgil Arrington wrote:
>> The typographic standard is to only use one space between sentences
>> with proportionally spaced fonts.
>
> In the old hand set type (which I have worked with) there were different width spaces (en & em quads), depending on where they were used.
> Typically, an en quad was used between words and an em quad between sentences.  The names refer to the width of upper case N and M characters.  So, the space between words was as wide as an N and between sentences, an M.  There were also wider ones, such as double M and triple M.  Typesetting machines, such as the Linotype also had provision for different width spaces.
>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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>
>
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>
>
>
>
>

--
Felmon Davis

"Ask not what A Group of Employees can do for you.  But ask what can
All Employees do for A Group of Employees."
  -- Mike Dennison

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Jay Lozier Jay Lozier
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Re: Can't find setting

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 12:26:33 -0400, Felmon Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Aug 2013, Bruce Carlson wrote:
>
>> An interesting observation Virgil.
>>
>> When I went to school, mind you it was several lifetimes ago and in the  
>> backwoods of the Australian outback so it may not be too relevant to  
>> anywhere else on the planet but, I was told to always leave a double  
>> space at the end of every sentence. That was with hand writing, before  
>> typewriters were invented, at least there were none within several  
>> hundred miles of where I grew up.
>> These days with modern word processors I just don't bother to even try  
>> and insert two spaces at the end of sentences but I suppose I should,  
>> it certainly looks nicer and may even be proper.
>> It would be nice if modern word processors at least provided the option  
>> of a setting to do this automatically. Perhaps it should be the default  
>> setting.
>>
>> (please note no double spaces used in this text)
>>
>> Cheers all,
>>
>> Bruce Carlson
>
> this whole discussion rather puzzles me. I'm out of it because I've  
> never heard of a rule requiring double spaces between sentences (born  
> and raised in the US).
>
> esthetically double space insertion annoys me when I have to edit texts  
> but otherwise I don't notice so double spaces neither facilitate nor  
> inhibit reading as far as I am concerned.
>
> but not to just prattle on about myself, I have pulled three texts from  
> a shelf, two are Oxford University and one is Johns Hopkins University.  
> no double spaces that I can discern. oh, here's one from MIT Press; no  
> double spaces. these are somewhat recent; here's an older volume from  
> Stanford University (1992), again, no double spacing.
>
> I gather from Brian Barker's (and others') posts that this has something  
> to do with typewriters - is this a rule one learns by taking typewriter  
> classes? (learned on a typewriter but can't remember if I double-spaced  
> or not.) is it a rule applied to some special area of literature or  
> publication?
>
> F.
>

I read somewhere fairly recently that double spacing between sentences was  
for typewriters only. Apparently in printing the normal spacing between  
sentences was equivalent to  1 1/4 or so spaces. One space looked wrong on  
a typed page and two looked better. On computers, it is theoretically  
possible to set the sentence spacing to mimic the normal printing spacing  
so double spacing is not consider good practice on a computer. Those of us  
who learned to type on a typewriter have to unlearn the habit.

I learned to type in the US and the double spacing was taught back in the  
dark ages.

>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Virgil Arrington [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2013 10:29 AM
>> To: James Knott; LibreOffice
>> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Can't find setting
>>
>> I got my information from Robert Bringhurst's book "The Elements of  
>> Typographic Style."
>>
>> I have noticed that older books from the 19th century had wider spacing  
>> after sentence ending punctuation. Newer books, say from the mid 20th  
>> century on, seem to have narrower spacing between sentences.
>>
>> Virgil
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: James Knott
>> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 10:22 AM
>> To: LibreOffice
>> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Can't find setting
>>
>> Virgil Arrington wrote:
>>> The typographic standard is to only use one space between sentences
>>> with proportionally spaced fonts.
>>
>> In the old hand set type (which I have worked with) there were  
>> different width spaces (en & em quads), depending on where they were  
>> used.
>> Typically, an en quad was used between words and an em quad between  
>> sentences.  The names refer to the width of upper case N and M  
>> characters.  So, the space between words was as wide as an N and  
>> between sentences, an M.  There were also wider ones, such as double M  
>> and triple M.  Typesetting machines, such as the Linotype also had  
>> provision for different width spaces.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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T. R. Valentine T. R. Valentine
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Re: Can't find setting

On 16 August 2013 11:46, Jay Lozier <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I learned to type in the US and the double spacing was taught back in the
> dark ages.

Same here (dark ages = 1960s). When I became aware of the 'rule' that
double spacing at the end of a sentence was for typewriters, but not
for proportional fonts, I taught myself to change. It took some
effort, but now I do it without thinking.

Looking at a professionally typeset book, it appears (are my old eyes
deceiving me?) the space between sentences is a wee bit wider than
other spaces. If this is the case, it would be nice if word processors
would have a setting which would do this automatically.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapping_of_Unicode_characters#Spaces
lists twelve (12) different Unicode spaces, one of which is called a
punctuation space.


--
T. R. Valentine
Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care.
'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food
and clothes.' -- Erasmus

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doug-2 doug-2
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Felmon Davis
On 08/16/2013 12:26 PM, Felmon Davis wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Aug 2013, Bruce Carlson wrote:
>
>>
/snip/
>
> this whole discussion rather puzzles me. I'm out of it because I've
> never heard of a rule requiring double spaces between sentences (born
> and raised in the US).
>
> esthetically double space insertion annoys me when I have to edit
> texts but otherwise I don't notice so double spaces neither facilitate
> nor inhibit reading as far as I am concerned.
>
/snip/
>
> I gather from Brian Barker's (and others') posts that this has
> something to do with typewriters - is this a rule one learns by taking
> typewriter classes? (learned on a typewriter but can't remember if I
> double-spaced or not.) is it a rule applied to some special area of
> literature or publication?
>
> F.
>
Writing for publication should never double space between sentences.
However, to answer the question, above,when I took a typing class,
around 1952, I was told to double-space between sentences. In those
days, if anyone was writing for publication, it would go thru an
editor, followed by a Linotypist. Then, for book or magazine copy, there
were galley proofs. And when the type was set, there
would be no double spaces. Nowadays, when a manuscript (notice that
the word means "hand-written") is submitted for publication, very
little editing or proofreading is done--the computer-generated text
goes fairly directly to the offset press, or whatever typesetting
system is used. So do *not* double space anything any more! (BTW,
it's a hard habit to break!)

--doug

--
Blessed are the peacemakers..for they shall be shot at from both sides.
--A.M.Greeley

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snowshed snowshed
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by James Knott
On 8/15/13 8:28 AM, James Knott wrote:
> So, how would it tell the difference between the end of a sentence,
> terminated with a period and a sentence containing a period used as part
> of an abbreviation such as "Dr." or "etc."?

An idea I haven't actually tried, but might work...

Use the different Auto Correct options, until you get what you wish.
Create a Replace option that is [period][space][space] and have your
word processor replace it with [period][space character of your choice].

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04


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krackedpress krackedpress
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by doug-2
On 08/16/2013 01:26 PM, Doug wrote:

> On 08/16/2013 12:26 PM, Felmon Davis wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Aug 2013, Bruce Carlson wrote:
>>
> /snip/
>> this whole discussion rather puzzles me. I'm out of it because I've
>> never heard of a rule requiring double spaces between sentences (born
>> and raised in the US).
>>
>> esthetically double space insertion annoys me when I have to edit
>> texts but otherwise I don't notice so double spaces neither facilitate
>> nor inhibit reading as far as I am concerned.
>>
> /snip/
>> I gather from Brian Barker's (and others') posts that this has
>> something to do with typewriters - is this a rule one learns by taking
>> typewriter classes? (learned on a typewriter but can't remember if I
>> double-spaced or not.) is it a rule applied to some special area of
>> literature or publication?
>>
>> F.
>>
> Writing for publication should never double space between sentences.
> However, to answer the question, above,when I took a typing class,
> around 1952, I was told to double-space between sentences. In those
> days, if anyone was writing for publication, it would go thru an
> editor, followed by a Linotypist. Then, for book or magazine copy, there
> were galley proofs. And when the type was set, there
> would be no double spaces. Nowadays, when a manuscript (notice that
> the word means "hand-written") is submitted for publication, very
> little editing or proofreading is done--the computer-generated text
> goes fairly directly to the offset press, or whatever typesetting
> system is used. So do *not* double space anything any more! (BTW,
> it's a hard habit to break!)
>
> --doug
>

As I stated before, I always us double spacing, but will remove the
extra space if it was going to be needed that way for the publication.  
I use proportional fonts 99% of the time.  I still use the double
spacing with proportional fonts.

Yes, it is hard to break the habit.  I did some typesetting in the early
70's around the same time I programmed my first mainframe program.  Not
only were thee several sizes of glyph spacings, but shims and other thin
inserts to work with the proportional type width and to justify the line
on the typeset page.

The question of LO having no adjustable width for spacing.  As for the
number of Unicode spacings, then use them in your documents, well you
can but it can be complex to implement since there are many ways and
rules to choose the spacing and then you have to make it work with any
printer the document is printed to.



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James Knott James Knott
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Virgil Arrington
Michael wrote:
> 1)  Although the article was difficult to read, I think it would have
> been easier on the eyes (mine, anyway) if there was more space between
> the sentences.

This is my point exactly.  When there's extra space between sentences,
it's a lot easier to isolate the sentence from the surrounding text.
You have to look for the period, which may be more difficult to see,
depending on the letter it follows.  For example a period following a
"k" is harder to discern than one following a "o".  This means the
reader has to do extra work, while the eye is naturally equipped to
recognize the extra space.  So, the choice is search for the sentence or
automagically recognize it.


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Tom Tom
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Brian Barker
Hi :)
Sometimes we lose track of the original posters problem and the answer that solves the problem gets buried under tons of interesting discussion. 


I think Brian had the answer in his first post.  I've cut the inflammatory stuff that led to such a heated discussion (which i did enjoy and learned a lot from). 

Thanks all!  Regards from
Tom :) 




>________________________________
> From: Brian Barker <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Cc: Michael Morse <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2013, 4:38
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Can't find setting
>
>
>At 21:23 14/08/2013 -0500, Michael Morse wrote:
>>For some reason, I am no longer able to make a series of spaces
>>using the space bar.  After one space, pressing the space bar will
>>not advance the cursor.
>
><snip />
>
>
>Tools | AutoCorrect Options... | Options
>and remove the tick from "Ignore double spaces".  And hang your head in shame.)
>
>;^)
>
>I trust this helps.
>
>Brian Barker
>
>
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Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by James Knott
On 08/16/2013 10:50 AM, James Knott wrote:
> Brian Barker wrote:
>> I would suggest that two spaces are probably useful with fixed-pitch
>> text as on a typewriter
> A wider space between sentences is useful, no matter how the text is
> created.  It clearly defines the beginning and end of a sentence and is
> easier on the eyes.
>
>
James,

I think the typographic experts would say that the extra space results
in a visual pause after each sentence. Reading is intended to be a
smooth flow, which is facilitated with single spaces after sentences.
Just curious, since nearly every professionally published book since the
mid-1900s has had one space after sentence ending punctuation, do you
find reading books difficult?

I fully appreciate your preference, but it seems to be in the distinct
minority as far as what the experts believe is the best practice.

Virgil

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Tom Tom
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Re: Can't find setting

Hi :)
I think it is clear that James is not alone on this issue.  It depends on who you mean by experts too.  Professors are hardly noobs with regard to the written language.  So it seems opinion is divided.  I think we need to agree that we disagree and that disagreement is relatively harmless. 
Regards from
Tom :) 





>________________________________
> From: Virgil Arrington <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 1:28
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Can't find setting
>
>
>On 08/16/2013 10:50 AM, James Knott wrote:
>> Brian Barker wrote:
>>> I would suggest that two spaces are probably useful with fixed-pitch
>>> text as on a typewriter
>> A wider space between sentences is useful, no matter how the text is
>> created.  It clearly defines the beginning and end of a sentence and is
>> easier on the eyes.
>>
>>
>James,
>
>I think the typographic experts would say that the extra space results
>in a visual pause after each sentence. Reading is intended to be a
>smooth flow, which is facilitated with single spaces after sentences.
>Just curious, since nearly every professionally published book since the
>mid-1900s has had one space after sentence ending punctuation, do you
>find reading books difficult?
>
>I fully appreciate your preference, but it seems to be in the distinct
>minority as far as what the experts believe is the best practice.
>
>Virgil
>
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>
>
>
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snowshed snowshed
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Virgil Arrington
On 8/16/13 6:28 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

> On 08/16/2013 10:50 AM, James Knott wrote:
>> Brian Barker wrote:
>>> I would suggest that two spaces are probably useful with fixed-pitch
>>> text as on a typewriter
>> A wider space between sentences is useful, no matter how the text is
>> created.  It clearly defines the beginning and end of a sentence and is
>> easier on the eyes.
>>
>>
> James,
>
> I think the typographic experts would say that the extra space results
> in a visual pause after each sentence. Reading is intended to be a
> smooth flow, which is facilitated with single spaces after sentences.
> Just curious, since nearly every professionally published book since the
> mid-1900s has had one space after sentence ending punctuation, do you
> find reading books difficult?

Isn't part of this discussion the width of the space between sentences?
  It's sometimes hard to determine that in printed matter.  But I find
that a regular space between sentences makes reading harder, but too
much space causes me to pause.  So there must be a general happy medium
here, which I always thought was the em-space.

> I fully appreciate your preference, but it seems to be in the distinct
> minority as far as what the experts believe is the best practice.
>
> Virgil
>


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04


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