Re: Can't find setting

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James Knott James Knott
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Re: Can't find setting

Virgil Arrington wrote:
> Just curious, since nearly every professionally published book since
> the mid-1900s has had one space after sentence ending punctuation, do
> you find reading books difficult?

I just picked up the closest book I had at hand.  It's "Computer
Networks", by Andrew Tanenbaum & David Wetherall, 5th edition, published
in 2012 by Pearson.. It has wider spacing between sentences than words.
Second book I picked off my bookshelf is "Ethernet The Definitive Guide"
by Charles Spurgeon, 1st edition, 2000, from O'Reilly.  It also has
wider spacing between sentences.  That's 2 for 2 of the first 2 books I
grabbed.


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James Knott James Knott
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by snowshed
Ken Springer wrote:
> So there must be a general happy medium here, which I always thought
> was the em-space.

And that goes back to my earlier comment about en and em quads in hand
set type.  A slightly wider space makes it easier to read, because of
the way we recognize objects.

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James Knott James Knott
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Re: Can't find setting

James Knott wrote:
> Ken Springer wrote:
>> So there must be a general happy medium here, which I always thought
>> was the em-space.
> And that goes back to my earlier comment about en and em quads in hand
> set type.  A slightly wider space makes it easier to read, because of
> the way we recognize objects.
>

I just tried a little experiment.  I typed a sentence, with a period at
the end.  I then started typing the next sentence with a lower case n.
I then placed the cursor directly over the first vertical line in the
n.  After I finished the word, the n changed to upper case and the first
vertical line moved to the right, so it was no longer under the cursor
and resulting space was wider.  I tried again with an i as the first
letter and the same thing happened, but the shift was not as great.


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Larry Gusaas Larry Gusaas
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Re: Can't find setting

On 2013-08-16 8:22 PM James Knott wrote:
> I just tried a little experiment.  I typed a sentence, with a period at
> the end.  I then started typing the next sentence with a lower case n.
> I then placed the cursor directly over the first vertical line in the
> n.  After I finished the word, the n changed to upper case and the first
> vertical line moved to the right, so it was no longer under the cursor
> and resulting space was wider.

I tried the same experiment. There was no change in position.

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"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese



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Larry Gusaas Larry Gusaas
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by James Knott

On 2013-08-16 8:08 PM James Knott wrote:

> Virgil Arrington wrote:
>> Just curious, since nearly every professionally published book since
>> the mid-1900s has had one space after sentence ending punctuation, do
>> you find reading books difficult?
> I just picked up the closest book I had at hand.  It's "Computer
> Networks", by Andrew Tanenbaum & David Wetherall, 5th edition, published
> in 2012 by Pearson.. It has wider spacing between sentences than words.
> Second book I picked off my bookshelf is "Ethernet The Definitive Guide"
> by Charles Spurgeon, 1st edition, 2000, from O'Reilly.  It also has
> wider spacing between sentences.  That's 2 for 2 of the first 2 books I
> grabbed.

Every book I looked at had one space between sentences.

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Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese



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Felmon Davis Felmon Davis
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by James Knott
On Fri, 16 Aug 2013, James Knott wrote:

> Virgil Arrington wrote:
>> Just curious, since nearly every professionally published book since
>> the mid-1900s has had one space after sentence ending punctuation, do
>> you find reading books difficult?
>
> I just picked up the closest book I had at hand.  It's "Computer
> Networks", by Andrew Tanenbaum & David Wetherall, 5th edition, published
> in 2012 by Pearson.. It has wider spacing between sentences than words.
> Second book I picked off my bookshelf is "Ethernet The Definitive Guide"
> by Charles Spurgeon, 1st edition, 2000, from O'Reilly.  It also has
> wider spacing between sentences.  That's 2 for 2 of the first 2 books I
> grabbed.

the academic presses I mentioned before were not 'technical' titles so
I looked about and came up with:

_A Practical Guide to Linux_, Prentice-Hall: single-spaced.
_Learning the Bash Shell_, O'Reilly: double-spaced?

it's a bit hard to tell with the O'Reilly; I need to find a tiny
ruler. some spacing between words look larger than some spacing
between sentences.

guess it's different strokes for different presses.

hmm..., another O'Reilly text seems to have something short of double
and longer than single. God, it's hard to discern the difference! but
perhaps some here are right that these subliminal differences make a
difference for ease of reading.

anyway, I agree with Tom we shouldn't disagree about agreeing to
disagree.

F.

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Felmon Davis

By the yard, life is hard.
By the inch, it's a cinch.

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Felmon Davis Felmon Davis
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by doug-2
On Fri, 16 Aug 2013, Doug wrote:

> On 08/16/2013 12:26 PM, Felmon Davis wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Aug 2013, Bruce Carlson wrote:
>>
>>>
> /snip/
>>
>> this whole discussion rather puzzles me. I'm out of it because I've
>> never heard of a rule requiring double spaces between sentences (born
>> and raised in the US).
>>
>> esthetically double space insertion annoys me when I have to edit
>> texts but otherwise I don't notice so double spaces neither facilitate
>> nor inhibit reading as far as I am concerned.
>>
> /snip/
>>
>> I gather from Brian Barker's (and others') posts that this has
>> something to do with typewriters - is this a rule one learns by taking
>> typewriter classes? (learned on a typewriter but can't remember if I
>> double-spaced or not.) is it a rule applied to some special area of
>> literature or publication?
>>
>> F.
>>
> Writing for publication should never double space between sentences.
> However, to answer the question, above,when I took a typing class,
> around 1952, I was told to double-space between sentences. In those
> days, if anyone was writing for publication, it would go thru an
> editor, followed by a Linotypist. Then, for book or magazine copy, there
> were galley proofs. And when the type was set, there
> would be no double spaces. Nowadays, when a manuscript (notice that
> the word means "hand-written") is submitted for publication, very
> little editing or proofreading is done--the computer-generated text
> goes fairly directly to the offset press, or whatever typesetting
> system is used. So do *not* double space anything any more! (BTW,
> it's a hard habit to break!)
>
> --doug

this does clarify some of the context of discussion for me.

I didn't take typewriting classes, mainly self-taught but am a
somewhat speedy typist. I obviously didn't get the memo.

F.

--
Felmon Davis

Be braver -- you can't cross a chasm in two small jumps.

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Brian Barker Brian Barker
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Andrew Douglas Pitonyak
At 09:23 16/08/2013 -0400, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:
>While writing documents, I try to set the paragraph style to set
>spacing appropriately. I am always amazed at how many people do this
>in a word processor by simply adding blank lines in the document.

It's interesting that you here talk about "blank lines".  To add such
lines, people would have to use line breaks, using Shift+Enter.  But
what they generally do (as I'm sure you realise) is press Enter twice
- and this actually creates not a blank line but an empty paragraph:
not only an empty text line but also the normal vertical paragraph
spacing (not that they will have consciously set any, in fact).

Brian Barker


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Brian Barker Brian Barker
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by krackedpress
At 10:03 16/08/2013 -0400, Tim Lungstrom wrote:
>Ever since then, on mainframes and the PCs, I was told to always use
>double-spacing after sentences.  If I handed in a typed or
>word-processed document and did not double space it, I was marked
>off for not using the standard "format".

Remember that teachers are not always the quickest to catch up with
new practices!

>Also some required double-spacing for the lines of text as well.

That's another relic from Typewriterland, of course.  In a word
processor, you can space lines or paragraphs vertically by any amount
you like: you do not have to be limited to adding space in whole text
line heights.  It's better to think of extra vertical spacing in
millimetres or inches or points, not lines.

Brian Barker


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Brian Barker Brian Barker
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by James Knott
At 22:22 16/08/2013 -0400, James Knott wrote:
>I just tried a little experiment.  I typed a sentence, with a period
>at the end.  I then started typing the next sentence with a lower
>case n.  I then placed the cursor directly over the first vertical
>line in the n.  After I finished the word, the n changed to upper case ...

(That's just LibreOffice's AutoCorrect in action, of course.)

>... and the first vertical line moved to the right, so it was no
>longer under the cursor and resulting space was wider.  I tried
>again with an i as the first letter and the same thing happened, but
>the shift was not as great.

Any change you see would surely just be due to different amounts of
white space included around different characters in the font?  And
don't forget that positioning on a display is limited by the
resolution of the screen - much coarser than potentially available on
the eventual printed copy.

Brian Barker


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Screwbottle Screwbottle
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by James Knott
To add to this discussion of readability of text, spacing and
punctuation is only a small portion of it. In the read word punctuation
taught us when to take a breath, as with a continuous sentence separated
by a comma, and a long full breath after the period, plus a space.
Now even as we type to each other in this email, we are using a sans
serif font (for those not understanding serif and sans serif, sans serif
fonts have no "leading" lines on the edge of the character). Sans serif
fonts create a much harder font to read.

It has been found that a serif font with normal punctuation and spacing
leads the eye to faster reading as opposed to sans serif. Man tests have
been done with this. So the article written in the provided link, is
found to be hard to read as it is a sans serif font used.

Regards

Andrew Brown

On 16/08/2013 11:08 PM, James Knott wrote:

> Michael wrote:
>> 1)  Although the article was difficult to read, I think it would have
>> been easier on the eyes (mine, anyway) if there was more space between
>> the sentences.
> This is my point exactly.  When there's extra space between sentences,
> it's a lot easier to isolate the sentence from the surrounding text.
> You have to look for the period, which may be more difficult to see,
> depending on the letter it follows.  For example a period following a
> "k" is harder to discern than one following a "o".  This means the
> reader has to do extra work, while the eye is naturally equipped to
> recognize the extra space.  So, the choice is search for the sentence or
> automagically recognize it.
>
>


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Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Larry Gusaas
On 08/16/2013 11:18 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:

> On 2013-08-16 8:22 PM James Knott wrote:
>> I just tried a little experiment.  I typed a sentence, with a period at
>> the end.  I then started typing the next sentence with a lower case n.
>> I then placed the cursor directly over the first vertical line in the
>> n.  After I finished the word, the n changed to upper case and the first
>> vertical line moved to the right, so it was no longer under the cursor
>> and resulting space was wider.
>
> I tried the same experiment. There was no change in position.
>
James, I wonder if your paragraph alignment was set to "justified." If
so, the letters might move side to side as you continue to type the line.

Virgil

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James Knott James Knott
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Felmon Davis
Felmon Davis wrote:
> anyway, I agree with Tom we shouldn't disagree about agreeing to
> disagree.

I disagree.  ;-)


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Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by James Knott
On 08/16/2013 10:08 PM, James Knott wrote:

> Virgil Arrington wrote:
>> Just curious, since nearly every professionally published book since
>> the mid-1900s has had one space after sentence ending punctuation, do
>> you find reading books difficult?
> I just picked up the closest book I had at hand.  It's "Computer
> Networks", by Andrew Tanenbaum & David Wetherall, 5th edition, published
> in 2012 by Pearson.. It has wider spacing between sentences than words.
> Second book I picked off my bookshelf is "Ethernet The Definitive Guide"
> by Charles Spurgeon, 1st edition, 2000, from O'Reilly.  It also has
> wider spacing between sentences.  That's 2 for 2 of the first 2 books I
> grabbed.
>
>

You and I obviously have different tastes in literature. But, no matter,
I'll follow Tom's advice and let the matter go. I'm happy to follow the
advice of the overwhelming majority of professional typographers. If you
don't want to, you don't have to, and I'll respect that.

Virgil

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T. R. Valentine T. R. Valentine
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Screwbottle
On 17 August 2013 03:47, Andrew Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It has been found that a serif font with normal punctuation and spacing
> leads the eye to faster reading as opposed to sans serif. Man tests have
> been done with this. So the article written in the provided link, is found
> to be hard to read as it is a sans serif font used.

Well, yes and no. In reading text on paper, readers in several
European countries tend to do better with sans-serif text than text
with serifs. Most people in the U.S. prefer text with serifs. But when
it comes to reading text on a screen (especially in medium-to-low
resolutions and almost always with small text) most readers tend to do
better with sans-serif text (serifs tend not to display well).


--
T. R. Valentine
Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care.
'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food
and clothes.' -- Erasmus

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Brian Barker Brian Barker
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Screwbottle
At 10:47 17/08/2013 +0200, Andrew Brown wrote:
>In the read word punctuation taught us when to take a breath, as
>with a continuous sentence separated by a comma, and a long full
>breath after the period, plus a space.

This suggests that the point of the printed word is solely to enable
public speaking.  Those of us who can read without moving our lips do
not need breaths between sentences!  I can breathe and read at the
same time; can't you?  The true purpose of punctuation in written
material is to clarify the structure of the material, not to indicate
the pauses that might occur if the material were read aloud.

>Now even as we type to each other in this email, we are using a sans
>serif font ...

That's what you think!  You sent this message in plain text, so no
font was identified.  How I read it or anyone else does depends on
how we decide or our mail clients choose to display it.  I'm doing
the same: you don't know how this appears to me as I'm composing it
and I don't know how you will see it.

Brian Barker


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krackedpress krackedpress
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Re: Can't find setting

On 08/17/2013 12:56 PM, Brian Barker wrote:

> At 10:47 17/08/2013 +0200, Andrew Brown wrote:
>> In the read word punctuation taught us when to take a breath, as with
>> a continuous sentence separated by a comma, and a long full breath
>> after the period, plus a space.
>
> This suggests that the point of the printed word is solely to enable
> public speaking.  Those of us who can read without moving our lips do
> not need breaths between sentences!  I can breathe and read at the
> same time; can't you?  The true purpose of punctuation in written
> material is to clarify the structure of the material, not to indicate
> the pauses that might occur if the material were read aloud.
>
>> Now even as we type to each other in this email, we are using a sans
>> serif font ...
>
> That's what you think!  You sent this message in plain text, so no
> font was identified.  How I read it or anyone else does depends on how
> we decide or our mail clients choose to display it.  I'm doing the
> same: you don't know how this appears to me as I'm composing it and I
> don't know how you will see it.
>
> Brian Barker
>
>

In Thunderbird's Preferences, you can choose what font the text of your
email will be displayed in. By default, it seems it is "Times New
Roman", but I now use "DejaVu Serif".  I then get to choose what font
the email is written in, with the current default as "Times".  I just
chose "DejaVu Serif" for the font of this text that I have typed here.

So, you can decide which font you wish to display any text that does not
have a font identifier built in, and you can define the font of the text
you are sending in your email, more than one if you choose.

As for punctuation and word spacing, try reading old Greek text or
others of that era like that where they seem to not use spacings and
punctuation in their text.  We need them whether we read a text out load
or silently.  The internal punctuation gives you structure and also
gives you a sense of "pausing" where the author wants such a thing to
emphasize some word or portion of the text.

The punctuation in the sentence change the meaning of the sentence just
by changing, adding, removing, key internal punctuation marks.  Of
course over the 30+ years between high-school and the last college
writing course, the standards and rules have changes on what is needed
where and how best to use a comma or semicolon. But without these in the
text of books that I personally like to read, it would not be as easy to
read as it is now.

As for which fonts are best to use where, well whole college courses and
majors can be needed to make the "best guess" on the science of what
fonts are best for what and which fonts are "more readable" than
others.  Book Publishers know what it best in the different types of
books that publish.  One font for text books, another for entertainment
reading.  The hard cover book fonts can be different than the paper back
ones as well.  There is a science involved in the choosing of the
"proper" fonts.  I just decide which looks best for me for ease of
reading.  I am told Serif fonts work the best for "entertainment"
reading, but which serif font is the best, only you can decide which one
in your fonts collection works best for you.

.


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Paul Steyn Paul Steyn
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Re: Can't find setting

On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 15:22:43 -0400
Kracked_P_P---webmaster <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So, you can decide which font you wish to display any text that does
> not have a font identifier built in, and you can define the font of
> the text you are sending in your email, more than one if you choose.

Actually, that's only if you're sending html content. If you're sending
plain text, no you can't. And even if you're sending html, you should
also be sending plaintext alongside it, for people like me that are
(most of the time, unless I choose otherwise) reading the plaintext
version. If you don't I just see the plaintext with the html tags in
it. I choose what font it displays in, so no, you have absolutely no
control over what font I see things in, unless I switch to html view.

I'm sure you know all that, but I felt it was worth pointing out for
the poor people out there using things like Outlook who don't know any
better.

Paul

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Brian Barker Brian Barker
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by krackedpress
At 15:22 17/08/2013 -0400, Tim Lungstrom wrote:
>In Thunderbird's Preferences, you can choose what font the text of
>your email will be displayed in. By default, it seems it is "Times
>New Roman", but I now use "DejaVu Serif".

This is very confused.  What do you mean by "your email": presumably
messages you *receive* - other people's messages, that is?  Yes,
exactly so - so their authors *don't* get to say how their messages
appear to you.

>I then get to choose what font the email is written in, with the
>current default as "Times".  I just chose "DejaVu Serif" for the
>font of this text that I have typed here.

You think you are choosing the font in which your correspondents will
see your messages.  But you have just contradicted that above, by
saying (correctly) that as a recipient you can overrule such
formatting choices.

>So, you can decide which font you wish to display any text that does
>not have a font identifier built in, ...

(You are now talking received messages again, right?)  Correct - but
also even if the text was formatted, in fact.  In the case of this
mailing list, for example, only the plain text version of what you
send is distributed, so your formatting is lost before your text
reaches anyone.

>... and you can define the font of the text you are sending in your
>email, more than one if you choose.

You can try, but you'll generally fail - for reasons including the
one you give yourself.

Brian Barker


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Larry Gusaas Larry Gusaas
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Re: Can't find setting

On 2013-08-17 4:39 PM Brian Barker wrote:(You are now talking received messages
        again, right?)  Correct - but also even if the text was
        formatted, in fact.  In the case of this mailing list, for
        example, only the plain text version of what you send is
        distributed, so your formatting is lost before your text reaches
        anyone.Does this list strip HTML messages?
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