Re: Can't find setting

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Tom Tom
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Re: Can't find setting

Hi :) 

Superb! :)   I really liked that answer!  Sometimes i get too stuffy and serious on this list so it's good to see this sort of thing :)  Also if it was genuine, then it's good to see that we can all disagree but still get on with helping people. 

Thanks and regards from

Tom :) 






>________________________________
> From: James Knott <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013, 12:38
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Can't find setting
>
>
>Felmon Davis wrote:
>> anyway, I agree with Tom we shouldn't disagree about agreeing to
>> disagree.
>
>I disagree.  ;-)
>
>
>
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Screwbottle Screwbottle
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by krackedpress
Thanks Tim, exactly what I was trying to express as briefly as possible.

Brian, the spoken word is more important and critical than the written
word, in initial development of the human being. I don't have to be a
psychologist to know that, just observed the growth of my children. So
if we are taught correctly, we learn to firstly speak, then are taught
to use our breathing, with pauses as we move on to read and understand
any written text. Many teachers, and all of the ones I have been taught
by, and my children taught by, have emphasised and enforced this. One
does not have to be a public speaker, as this process starts from the
first time all of us start to read and write at entry level school, and
possibly prior to that from our parents, in reading aloud to an
audience. So it starts there, and then progresses in the way we should
be reading, and writing.

And yes I can breath and read at the same time, that's not the real
point. And the true purpose of punctuation, is for reading both vocally
and in the mind, in that order, the one cannot be divorced from the other.

And as to plain text it still has a font, mainly a sans serif one, even
if not identified. In the old early days of computer, in whatever they
were, it was a rudimentary machine font, I'm under correction, but much
like Fixedsys. Microsoft then created their own font, called Microsoft
sans serif and MS sans serif, almost identical but with some subtle
differences. all of this was related to the poor screen/display
technologies of the time. Today even in a plain text document one can
choose any font of choice now, and correctly covered by Tim, in email
clients. As to the font right now I am typing in, is in Mozilla
Thunderbird, and the font is Colibri, a sans serif one, which is the
default one for Thunderbird, under Windows 7 that is.

Regards

Andrew Brown

On 17/08/2013 09:22 PM, Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:

> On 08/17/2013 12:56 PM, Brian Barker wrote:
>> At 10:47 17/08/2013 +0200, Andrew Brown wrote:
>>> In the read word punctuation taught us when to take a breath, as
>>> with a continuous sentence separated by a comma, and a long full
>>> breath after the period, plus a space.
>>
>> This suggests that the point of the printed word is solely to enable
>> public speaking.  Those of us who can read without moving our lips do
>> not need breaths between sentences!  I can breathe and read at the
>> same time; can't you?  The true purpose of punctuation in written
>> material is to clarify the structure of the material, not to indicate
>> the pauses that might occur if the material were read aloud.
>>
>>> Now even as we type to each other in this email, we are using a sans
>>> serif font ...
>>
>> That's what you think!  You sent this message in plain text, so no
>> font was identified.  How I read it or anyone else does depends on
>> how we decide or our mail clients choose to display it.  I'm doing
>> the same: you don't know how this appears to me as I'm composing it
>> and I don't know how you will see it.
>>
>> Brian Barker
>>
>>
>
> In Thunderbird's Preferences, you can choose what font the text of
> your email will be displayed in. By default, it seems it is "Times New
> Roman", but I now use "DejaVu Serif".  I then get to choose what font
> the email is written in, with the current default as "Times".  I just
> chose "DejaVu Serif" for the font of this text that I have typed here.
>
> So, you can decide which font you wish to display any text that does
> not have a font identifier built in, and you can define the font of
> the text you are sending in your email, more than one if you choose.
>
> As for punctuation and word spacing, try reading old Greek text or
> others of that era like that where they seem to not use spacings and
> punctuation in their text.  We need them whether we read a text out
> load or silently.  The internal punctuation gives you structure and
> also gives you a sense of "pausing" where the author wants such a
> thing to emphasize some word or portion of the text.
>
> The punctuation in the sentence change the meaning of the sentence
> just by changing, adding, removing, key internal punctuation marks.  
> Of course over the 30+ years between high-school and the last college
> writing course, the standards and rules have changes on what is needed
> where and how best to use a comma or semicolon. But without these in
> the text of books that I personally like to read, it would not be as
> easy to read as it is now.
>
> As for which fonts are best to use where, well whole college courses
> and majors can be needed to make the "best guess" on the science of
> what fonts are best for what and which fonts are "more readable" than
> others.  Book Publishers know what it best in the different types of
> books that publish.  One font for text books, another for
> entertainment reading.  The hard cover book fonts can be different
> than the paper back ones as well.  There is a science involved in the
> choosing of the "proper" fonts.  I just decide which looks best for me
> for ease of reading.  I am told Serif fonts work the best for
> "entertainment" reading, but which serif font is the best, only you
> can decide which one in your fonts collection works best for you.
>
> .
>
>


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Felmon Davis Felmon Davis
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Re: Can't find setting

On Sun, 18 Aug 2013, Andrew Brown wrote:

> [...]
> And the true purpose of punctuation, is for reading both vocally and in the
> mind, in that order, the one cannot be divorced from the other.
> [...]

German requires a comma between main clauses and subordinate clauses,
for instance:

"ich sehe, dass er redet" or "I see that he's talking."

there is no breath between those clauses in German or English.

German also capitalizes every noun; what aspect of vocalization is
that supposed to correspond to? apostrophes aren't vocalized either.

two different media, speech and written word, one for the eye, one for
the ear.

f.


>
> On 17/08/2013 09:22 PM, Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:
>> On 08/17/2013 12:56 PM, Brian Barker wrote:
>>> At 10:47 17/08/2013 +0200, Andrew Brown wrote:
>>>> In the read word punctuation taught us when to take a breath, as with a
>>>> continuous sentence separated by a comma, and a long full breath after
>>>> the period, plus a space.
>>>
>>> This suggests that the point of the printed word is solely to enable
>>> public speaking.  Those of us who can read without moving our lips do not
>>> need breaths between sentences!  I can breathe and read at the same time;
>>> can't you?  The true purpose of punctuation in written material is to
>>> clarify the structure of the material, not to indicate the pauses that
>>> might occur if the material were read aloud.
>>>
>>>> Now even as we type to each other in this email, we are using a sans
>>>> serif font ...
>>>
>>> That's what you think!  You sent this message in plain text, so no font
>>> was identified.  How I read it or anyone else does depends on how we
>>> decide or our mail clients choose to display it.  I'm doing the same: you
>>> don't know how this appears to me as I'm composing it and I don't know how
>>> you will see it.
>>>
>>> Brian Barker
>>>
>>>
>>
>> In Thunderbird's Preferences, you can choose what font the text of your
>> email will be displayed in. By default, it seems it is "Times New Roman",
>> but I now use "DejaVu Serif".  I then get to choose what font the email is
>> written in, with the current default as "Times".  I just chose "DejaVu
>> Serif" for the font of this text that I have typed here.
>>
>> So, you can decide which font you wish to display any text that does not
>> have a font identifier built in, and you can define the font of the text
>> you are sending in your email, more than one if you choose.
>>
>> As for punctuation and word spacing, try reading old Greek text or others
>> of that era like that where they seem to not use spacings and punctuation
>> in their text.  We need them whether we read a text out load or silently.
>> The internal punctuation gives you structure and also gives you a sense of
>> "pausing" where the author wants such a thing to emphasize some word or
>> portion of the text.
>>
>> The punctuation in the sentence change the meaning of the sentence just by
>> changing, adding, removing, key internal punctuation marks.  Of course over
>> the 30+ years between high-school and the last college writing course, the
>> standards and rules have changes on what is needed where and how best to
>> use a comma or semicolon. But without these in the text of books that I
>> personally like to read, it would not be as easy to read as it is now.
>>
>> As for which fonts are best to use where, well whole college courses and
>> majors can be needed to make the "best guess" on the science of what fonts
>> are best for what and which fonts are "more readable" than others.  Book
>> Publishers know what it best in the different types of books that publish.
>> One font for text books, another for entertainment reading.  The hard cover
>> book fonts can be different than the paper back ones as well.  There is a
>> science involved in the choosing of the "proper" fonts.  I just decide
>> which looks best for me for ease of reading.  I am told Serif fonts work
>> the best for "entertainment" reading, but which serif font is the best,
>> only you can decide which one in your fonts collection works best for you.
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>
>
>

--
Felmon Davis

Nagging is the repetition of unpalatable truths.  -- Baroness Edith
Summerskill

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Brian Barker Brian Barker
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Screwbottle
At 12:41 18/08/2013 +0200, Andrew Brown wrote:
>Thanks Tim, exactly what I was trying to express as briefly as possible.

Even though most of what he said was wrong?

>Brian, the spoken word is more important and critical than the
>written word, ...

So you are not talking about punctuation like the rest of us, then -
which occurs only in written text (unless you are Victor Borge, that
is)?  (And I fear devotees of the Torah, the Bible, the Qur'an, and a
hundred other similar texts would dispute your suggestion anyway!)

[Snipped: rest of paragraph talking about pauses in speaking, nothing
about punctuation.]

>And yes I can breath[e] and read at the same time, that's not the real point.

For those of us who read without moving our lips, it is.

>And the true purpose of punctuation, is for reading both vocally and
>in the mind, in that order, the one cannot be divorced from the other.

The purpose of punctuation is for reading?  Well, yes: if you don't
read the message you don't need the punctuation!  (Otherwise, this
says nothing.)

>And as to plain text it still has a font, ...

Sorry, but that's plain nonsense.  In order to display plain text,
you need to use a font.  But you can choose any font, and that font
is your choice (or your software's), not part of the plain
text.  What do you think "plain" means here?

>Today even in a plain text document one can choose any font ...

Exactly: which proves the point that the plain text itself does *not*
have a font.

>... and correctly covered by Tim, ...

As I say (and explained separately), he was mainly incorrect, in fact.

>As to the font right now I am typing in, is in Mozilla Thunderbird,
>and the font is Colibri, a sans serif one, ...

That's what you are seeing, but this mailing list (for example)
distributes only a plain text version of your message, which has lost
this property.

See also Felmon Davis's excellent examples.

Brian Barker


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Denis Navas Vega Denis Navas Vega
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Virgil Arrington
LaTeX which is known as a standard with typography of technical and
mathematical documents, use a wider space after the end of sentence point,
than the space between words.  Even more, the inter word space is dependent
of the main font size (the optical size) and is stretchable.

That's why I don't accept the usual convention that don't use double space
after the end of sentence point, because LibreOffice does not have way to
insert end of sentence spaces.




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Denis Navas Vega Denis Navas Vega
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by T. R. Valentine
I tried with autocorrect to insert a wider space from the corresponding
unicode character, but autocorrect does not replace '. ' (dot space). So its
useless.



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Denis Navas Vega Denis Navas Vega
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by snowshed
LO does not replace [.][ ] with [.][another kind of space].  Probably
because regular expressions only detect 'space' without any qualification.



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Denis Navas Vega Denis Navas Vega
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by James Knott
I repeated the experiment.

LibreOffice 4.1.0.4
Linux Libertine G, 12 pt.

I wrote a name with a initial, with and without a dot.  The space between
words is highlighted to make clear its width.

To aling the two paragraphs, used a dot at the start of the first group of
words.  Both paragraphs are left aligned, therefore any change in space
should be for a proportional space between after a dot different from the
space between words.  In this case, the space should be less than a normal
space as in Dr._Name.

>From the image 14, you can see that isn't any difference in spacing.

Repeating the experience with justification, the spacing is expanded a
little, but I can't see clearly if its only after punctuations or also
between words.  Look at the second image (screenshot15).

Conclusion:

LibreOffice does not change the interword spacing in an intelligent manner
as LaTeX does, being this software the best example of superb typography.
So, if any typist use two spaces after and end of sentence dot, is in
average reducing  the interword spacing and increasing the end of sentence
spacing in a visible manner.


Also, this problem is not also from an end of sentence.  It is also, for the
space after the titles (Mr.[space]name) and for the space after ':' and
after ';'.  It is also known that in France, must be a small space before
the end of sentence dot.




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Brian Barker Brian Barker
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Denis Navas Vega
At 06:53 19/08/2013 -0600, Denis J Navas wrote:
>LO does not replace [.][ ] with [.][another kind of
>space].  Probably because regular expressions only detect 'space'
>without any qualification.

Do you mean "does not"?  (In which case I don't see where regular
expressions come into it.)  We'd probably not want it to.  Or do you
mean "cannot"?  You can make this change using Find & Replace. You
need to have "Regular expressions" off, of course - or to escape the
dot by preceding it with a backslash.  And you need to use a font
that includes the space character you are trying to insert.

I trust this helps.

Brian Barker


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Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Denis Navas Vega
On 08/19/2013 08:44 AM, Denis J Navas wrote:

> LaTeX which is known as a standard with typography of technical and
> mathematical documents, use a wider space after the end of sentence
> point, than the space between words.  Even more, the inter word space
> is dependent of the main font size (the optical size) and is stretchable.
>
> That's why I don't accept the usual convention that don't use double
> space after the end of sentence point, because LibreOffice does not
> have way to insert end of sentence spaces.
>
>
>
>

While that is the default LaTeX setting, every time I use LaTeX, I
insert the \frenchspacing command in my preamble, so that LaTeX will
conform to the current generally accepted standard of using only a
single word space after sentences.

While LaTeX produces beautiful results, it is a computing tool, not a
typographic standard. The creator of the default behavior has, in fact,
*deviated* from the "standard of typography" by ignoring the current
standard of using only one word space after sentence ending punctuation.

I'm not saying everybody has to conform to the standard, but it would be
somewhat naive to pretend that the standard doesn't exist.

I know I said I would let it go, but I just couldn't resist. :)

Virgil

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snowshed snowshed
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Re: Can't find setting

On 8/19/13 7:00 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

> On 08/19/2013 08:44 AM, Denis J Navas wrote:
>> LaTeX which is known as a standard with typography of technical and
>> mathematical documents, use a wider space after the end of sentence
>> point, than the space between words.  Even more, the inter word space
>> is dependent of the main font size (the optical size) and is stretchable.
>>
>> That's why I don't accept the usual convention that don't use double
>> space after the end of sentence point, because LibreOffice does not
>> have way to insert end of sentence spaces.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> While that is the default LaTeX setting, every time I use LaTeX, I
> insert the \frenchspacing command in my preamble, so that LaTeX will
> conform to the current generally accepted standard of using only a
> single word space after sentences.
>
> While LaTeX produces beautiful results, it is a computing tool, not a
> typographic standard. The creator of the default behavior has, in fact,
> *deviated* from the "standard of typography" by ignoring the current
> standard of using only one word space after sentence ending punctuation.
>
> I'm not saying everybody has to conform to the standard, but it would be
> somewhat naive to pretend that the standard doesn't exist.
>
> I know I said I would let it go, but I just couldn't resist. :)

Hi, Vigil,

So, if I read your message correctly, there is no official "body" that
sets typographic standards, only general conventions used by most, but
may not be the best for end user/reader.  Would that be correct?


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04


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Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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Re: Can't find setting

On 08/19/2013 11:05 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
>
> Hi, Vigil,
>
> So, if I read your message correctly, there is no official "body" that
> sets typographic standards, only general conventions used by most, but
> may not be the best for end user/reader.  Would that be correct?
>
>

Not quite.

I agree there is no official body that sets typographic standards, at
least none of which I am aware. I also agree that there are general
conventions that are used by most professional typographers. I do *not*
agree that these conventions "may not be best for the end user/reader."

I honestly believe that one word space between sentences is best for the
reader. I honestly believe it facilitates the smooth flow of reading.

It might surprise you, but I was a slow convert to the "one space
between sentences" convention. Like many here, I learned to type on an
Underwood, with all the conventions that grew up with the typewriter. I
learned to use 12-point Pica type, set one-inch page margins, indent
paragraphs one half inch, double space my text, and put two spaces
between sentences.

When I graduated to a Windows word processor with proportionally spaced
type, I kept using all of these conventions. After all, after 25 years
of typing everything the same way, it "looked" right. I then came across
a series of typography articles that stated that these typing
conventions were actually deviations from typographic standards. They
grew as concessions to the fixed-width type of the typewriter and
letter-sized paper. But, professional typesetters using proportionally
spaced type typically didn't use the same conventions. When was the last
time you saw a book set in 12 point type, double spaced lines with
one-half inch indents?

I started examining the books I read with great reading comfort. *All*
of them had type smaller than 12 points. *None* of them had double
spaced lines or half-inch indents. They were *all* single spaced with
paragraph indents of less than one half inch. And most of them,
especially those printed after I was born, had only one word space after
sentence ending punctuation.

So, if everything I learned in typing class was "right," how was it that
all of these professionally published books got it wrong? More
importantly, how was it that I was able to read all these books without
stumbling over the words? They all looked just as "right" as my own
papers that had been typed using typewriter conventions.

I learned that the typewriter standards were based on the fact that we
were using letter-sized paper and fixed-width type. You'll notice books
tend to have much smaller pages. Larger paper means longer text lines,
which means larger type, and wider line spacing. Fixed-width type also
requires more definition between paragraphs and sentences, hence
half-inch indents and two spaces between sentences.

But, now we're beyond the Underwood technology. We're now using
technology that mimics that of Gutenberg. It's time we left behind the
shackles of the typewriter and embraced the better technology we can obtain.

For my work, I now use 11-point type, single space my text and use
paragraph indents of no more than 1/3 inch (2 picas). I set my left and
right margins at about 1.75 inches (9.5 to 10.5 picas), specifically to
increase white space in the margins and shorten the length of my lines.
And, following the example of decades and decades of professionally
printed books, I put only one word space between sentences.

At first, my new practice looked weird. But, I found that my work now
resembled that found in a book, instead of that typed on the typewriter.
Once I began using typesetting standards instead of typewriter
standards, my eyes grew accustomed to reading text that was properly
set, with only one space between paragraphs. My eyes adjusted to a
reading flow that was not interrupted by too much white space after a
period.

So, while I can appreciate that those accustomed to reading text with
two sentence ending spaces might resist change, I cannot agree that
their habits are actually "best" for the reader.

To quote a very old Alka Seltzer commercial, "Try it, you'll like it!"

Virgil

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Denis Navas Vega Denis Navas Vega
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by Brian Barker
I mean "can not" and the substitution of which I spoke is what is made by
the autocorrect feature.



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Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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A neat feature

In reply to this post by snowshed
I always enjoy finding a new feature in LO, one that I never knew
existed. That recently happened to me as was playing with paragraph styles.

One of the features I have always liked about LaTeX is the way in which
the size of its headings fonts is tied to its base font with
designations such as "Large" "Larger" and "Huge." If you increase the
size of the base font, the size of the headings increases correspondingly.

I never thought this could be done with LO as font sizes are expressed
in exact point sizes. Thus, if I increased the size of my default font
from 11 to 12 points, I thought I had to increase my headings, say, from
16 to 18 points.

But...

I recently discovered that the font sizes of heading styles can
expressed, not only in points, but as a percentage of the default font size.

Let's say the base font size of your text font is 11 points and you want
your headings to be twice the size. Instead of setting the headings
style to 22 points, you can actually type 200% in the point size box. It
will then always be twice the size of your base font size no matter what
size you set the base font. (Make sure you do this in the Styles
formatting dialogs and not in the direct formatting dialogs.)

I often change between fonts, some of which look best at 11 points
(Century, Palatino) and some at 12  points (Times, Goudy Old Style).
Now, I can change the base font size knowing that my headings will
change correspondingly.

Just thought I'd share this for others who may be interested in a
feature that may go unnoticed.

Virgil



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William Wells William Wells
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Re: Can't find setting

In reply to this post by snowshed
While there is no ISO or equivalent, there are a lot of
wannabe:  

In the US:  The "real" expert (in the US) on this subject
seems to be
the Chicago Manual of Style.  It sets forth what Publishers
desire/want/will not accept unless it complies with
regarding submissions.  

Brits have The Cambridge Handbook for Editors, Authors and
Publishers among others, and the EU has its own Style Manual

Oh, and for students, there is the "Elements of Style".


There are Academic Styles, Styles for Medical writing ad
nauseum.  


So, the devs could lose many hours sleep trying to
generate a program to cover all eventualities.  
 



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Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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Re: Can't find setting

On 08/20/2013 06:01 PM, William Wells wrote:

> While there is no ISO or equivalent, there are a lot of
> wannabe:
>
> In the US:  The "real" expert (in the US) on this subject
> seems to be
> the Chicago Manual of Style.  It sets forth what Publishers
> desire/want/will not accept unless it complies with
> regarding submissions.
>
> Brits have The Cambridge Handbook for Editors, Authors and
> Publishers among others, and the EU has its own Style Manual
>
> Oh, and for students, there is the "Elements of Style".
>
>
> There are Academic Styles, Styles for Medical writing ad
> nauseum.
>
>
> So, the devs could lose many hours sleep trying to
> generate a program to cover all eventualities.
>    
>
>
>
I think there is a difference between a style for submitting a
manuscript to a publisher and a style for final publication. I
understand many publishers want manuscripts submitted in double spaced
type, which they would never use when actually publishing the book. Our
discussion has been more about good final product than initial submissions.

Virgil

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Paul Steyn Paul Steyn
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Re: Can't find setting

On Tue, 20 Aug 2013 20:01:57 -0400
Virgil Arrington <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think there is a difference between a style for submitting a
> manuscript to a publisher and a style for final publication. I
> understand many publishers want manuscripts submitted in double
> spaced type, which they would never use when actually publishing the
> book. Our discussion has been more about good final product than
> initial submissions.

True, but with that we've moved quite far from the discussion about
what LO can and cannot do. As far as I can see, these
standards/conventions are about:
   font size
   line spacing
   margins
   paragraph indentation
   inter-word and inter-sentance spacing.

I realise LO can't be all things to all people, but what I've
understood so far as that LO can do all but the last point. With
justified text that last point may not be relevant, and it may not be a
good convention for final product, but for some people it will still be
relevant, and they should ideally have the choice. Is this something
that can be added to LO? Should there be an enhancement request for
this? Are there other points that need to be addressed in addition to
those listed so far? Has someone tested a regex search/replace for this
as a workaround (I think someone tried something that didn't work, but
it wasn't a regex)?

Just my R0.02

Paul

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Tim Deaton Tim Deaton
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Re: A neat feature (base and related font sizes)

In reply to this post by Virgil Arrington
Sounds interesting.  But where do you set the BASE font size?

-- Tim
===========================

On 8/20/2013 1:37 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

> I always enjoy finding a new feature in LO, one that I never knew
> existed. That recently happened to me as was playing with paragraph
> styles.
>
> One of the features I have always liked about LaTeX is the way in
> which the size of its headings fonts is tied to its base font with
> designations such as "Large" "Larger" and "Huge." If you increase the
> size of the base font, the size of the headings increases
> correspondingly.
>
> I never thought this could be done with LO as font sizes are expressed
> in exact point sizes. Thus, if I increased the size of my default font
> from 11 to 12 points, I thought I had to increase my headings, say,
> from 16 to 18 points.
>
> But...
>
> I recently discovered that the font sizes of heading styles can
> expressed, not only in points, but as a percentage of the default font
> size.
>
> Let's say the base font size of your text font is 11 points and you
> want your headings to be twice the size. Instead of setting the
> headings style to 22 points, you can actually type 200% in the point
> size box. It will then always be twice the size of your base font size
> no matter what size you set the base font. (Make sure you do this in
> the Styles formatting dialogs and not in the direct formatting dialogs.)
>
> I often change between fonts, some of which look best at 11 points
> (Century, Palatino) and some at 12  points (Times, Goudy Old Style).
> Now, I can change the base font size knowing that my headings will
> change correspondingly.
>
> Just thought I'd share this for others who may be interested in a
> feature that may go unnoticed.
>
> Virgil
>
>
>


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Tom Tom
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Re: A neat feature (base and related font sizes)

HI :)
I think the default font size is the font size of the "text-body" or "default" style used in the body text that is under the heading (hopefully)

Note that if you look through the various font sizes of the styles that are given as defaults then "Heading1" is already set as a percentage.  It's only "Heading2", "Heading3" and so on that would need changing from fixed sizes. 

Another neat trick is that all the styles cascade anyway.  So if you modify the relevant style then all subsequent ones change too, to stay relevant to the one you changed.  Sadly i don't fully understand which ones cascade from which.  clicking this link starts downloading the Pdf directly
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/6/6e/GS4003-StylesAndTemplates.pdf
Regards from
Tom :) 





>________________________________
> From: Tim Deaton <[hidden email]>
>To: Virgil Arrington <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Wednesday, 21 August 2013, 2:04
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] A neat feature (base and related font sizes)
>
>
>Sounds interesting.  But where do you set the BASE font size?
>
>-- Tim
>===========================
>
>On 8/20/2013 1:37 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>> I always enjoy finding a new feature in LO, one that I never knew
>> existed. That recently happened to me as was playing with paragraph
>> styles.
>>
>> One of the features I have always liked about LaTeX is the way in
>> which the size of its headings fonts is tied to its base font with
>> designations such as "Large" "Larger" and "Huge." If you increase the
>> size of the base font, the size of the headings increases
>> correspondingly.
>>
>> I never thought this could be done with LO as font sizes are expressed
>> in exact point sizes. Thus, if I increased the size of my default font
>> from 11 to 12 points, I thought I had to increase my headings, say,
>> from 16 to 18 points.
>>
>> But...
>>
>> I recently discovered that the font sizes of heading styles can
>> expressed, not only in points, but as a percentage of the default font
>> size.
>>
>> Let's say the base font size of your text font is 11 points and you
>> want your headings to be twice the size. Instead of setting the
>> headings style to 22 points, you can actually type 200% in the point
>> size box. It will then always be twice the size of your base font size
>> no matter what size you set the base font. (Make sure you do this in
>> the Styles formatting dialogs and not in the direct formatting dialogs.)
>>
>> I often change between fonts, some of which look best at 11 points
>> (Century, Palatino) and some at 12  points (Times, Goudy Old Style).
>> Now, I can change the base font size knowing that my headings will
>> change correspondingly.
>>
>> Just thought I'd share this for others who may be interested in a
>> feature that may go unnoticed.
>>
>> Virgil
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Joaquín Lameiro Joaquín Lameiro
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Re: A neat feature (base and related font sizes)

"Sadly i don't fully understand which ones cascade from which."

I don't know if I understand exactly what do you mean by "cascade". In Writer, one can set the properties of a style as "dependent" from other style (Writer calls this "linked"). For example, "text-body" is normally dependent from "default". The wiser thing to do, I think, is to set the minimal common values in "default" and then make other styles depend from "default". For example: Set "default" to Liberation Serif 12 normal style, 1,5 space between lines, etc. Then you can make a "text-body" style dependent on (linked with) "default", but you add indentation for the first line of each paragraph. Again, you want the first paragraph after a heading without indentation and with a big capital first letter: you make another "default-dependent" style, let's say "first paragraph", with all these additional features.

That about dependency among styles. Maybe that is what you call cascading.

But it can also be an automatic shift of style once one changes paragraph, so one doesn't have to be manually swifting among styles all the time. Taking the same example. Imagine you have those "default-dependent" styles I explained above (and some other "heading-dependent" ones). You can tell Writer to sequence these styles in a particular order: you want that, once you have introduced a "Heading 1", the next paragraph is automatically set as "first paragraph", and then, the next one, as "text-body". You can do this by selecting the "Next style" on each style properties: in this case, "heading 1" will have "first paragraph" as "next style"; "first paragraph" will have "text-body" as "next style", and "text-body" will just have "text-body" as next, so each new paragraph after a "text-body" one will remain "text-body" styled.

Now, both of these operations I have described are easily done through the style manager: press 'F11', right-click on the desired style and left-click on "Modify". In the dialog that pops up, select the "Organizer" tab, and there you have both the "linked with" and "next style" boxes.

My advise is to set some minimal style for the default and do not actually apply it directly on your text, but create linked styles with richer features. Thus you will assure coherency (since all styles are dependent on "default"). Same thing  for headings: apply a font-size to "Heading", link all other heading styles to it and then modify the font size of each one relatively, if you wish. But do not actually apply "Heading" style to the document: use the linked "Heading 1", "Heading 2", etc. instead.

Anyway, everything is quite clear here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/8/80/WG4007-WorkingWithStyles.pdf

Hope this helps.
Regards,
Joaquín


________________________________
 De: Tom Davies <[hidden email]>
Para: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>; Virgil Arrington <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Enviado: Miércoles 21 de agosto de 2013 9:41
Asunto: Re: [libreoffice-users] A neat feature (base and related font sizes)
 

HI :)
I think the default font size is the font size of the "text-body" or "default" style used in the body text that is under the heading (hopefully)

Note that if you look through the various font sizes of the styles that are given as defaults then "Heading1" is already set as a percentage.  It's only "Heading2", "Heading3" and so on that would need changing from fixed sizes. 

Another neat trick is that all the styles cascade anyway.  So if you modify the relevant style then all subsequent ones change too, to stay relevant to the one you changed.  Sadly i don't fully understand which ones cascade from which.  clicking this link starts downloading the Pdf directly
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/6/6e/GS4003-StylesAndTemplates.pdf
Regards from
Tom :) 





>________________________________
> From: Tim Deaton <[hidden email]>
>To: Virgil Arrington <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Wednesday, 21 August 2013, 2:04
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] A neat feature (base and related font sizes)
>
>
>Sounds interesting.  But where do you set the BASE font size?
>
>-- Tim
>===========================
>
>On 8/20/2013 1:37 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>> I always enjoy finding a new feature in LO, one that I never knew
>> existed. That recently happened to me as was playing with paragraph
>> styles.
>>
>> One of the features I have always liked about LaTeX is the way in
>> which the size of its headings fonts is tied to its base font with
>> designations such as "Large" "Larger" and "Huge." If you increase the
>> size of the base font, the size of the headings increases
>> correspondingly.
>>
>> I never thought this could be done with LO as font sizes are expressed
>> in exact point sizes. Thus, if I increased the size of my default font
>> from 11 to 12 points, I thought I had to increase my headings, say,
>> from 16 to 18 points.
>>
>> But...
>>
>> I recently discovered that the font sizes of heading styles can
>> expressed, not only in points, but as a percentage of the default font
>> size.
>>
>> Let's say the base font size of your text font is 11 points and you
>> want your headings to be twice the size. Instead of setting the
>> headings style to 22 points, you can actually type 200% in the point
>> size box. It will then always be twice the size of your base font size
>> no matter what size you set the base font. (Make sure you do this in
>> the Styles formatting dialogs and not in the direct formatting dialogs.)
>>
>> I often change between fonts, some of which look best at 11 points
>> (Century, Palatino) and some at 12  points (Times, Goudy Old Style).
>> Now, I can change the base font size knowing that my headings will
>> change correspondingly.
>>
>> Just thought I'd share this for others who may be interested in a
>> feature that may go unnoticed.
>>
>> Virgil
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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