Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

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Simon Brouwer Simon Brouwer
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

Hi Jim, all,

Jim Jagielski schreef:

>
> On Jun 8, 2011, at 5:53 PM, Simon Phipps wrote:
>
>>
>> On 8 Jun 2011, at 23:49, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 8, 2011, at 5:07 PM, Simon Brouwer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Op 6-6-2011 11:37, toki schreef:
>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>>
>>>>> On 05/06/2011 15:00, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A formal, legal foundation. The ASF is a recognized 501(c)3, non-
>>>>> TDF might not have 501(c)(3) status, but then consider that it is
>>>>> incorporated in Germany, not the United States.
>>>> That 501(c)(3) status aside, is TDF actually a legally established
>>>> foundation (yet)?
>>>
>>> I also think that 'independent' is also an adjective that belongs
>>> there... being independent is quite important to a number
>>> of FOSS ecosystem people...
>>
>> While that is clearly a true statement, you seem to be implying that you
>> don't think TDF is "independent".  Please can you explain what you mean?
>
> People may just be curious about TDF being "backed" by“Freies Office
> Deutschland
> e.V.” as well as an associated project in Software in the Public Interest
> (SPI).
> What does being "backed" by them mean? How independent is it from these
> 2 entitied? Just questions like that.
>
> Certainly being an independent, legally established foundation is
> critical, isn't it, as compare to one which is "just" a legally
> established one?

But is it even "just" a legally established foundation? AFAIK, TDF unto
this day does not exist as a legal entity.


That aside, I don't think there is any reason to doubt the independence of
its community, steering committee etc.

--
Vriendelijke groet,

Simon Brouwer
-*- nl.openoffice.org -*- http://www.opentaal.org -*-


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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

Hi,

Simon Brouwer wrote on 2011-06-09 13.12:
> But is it even "just" a legally established foundation? AFAIK, TDF unto
> this day does not exist as a legal entity.

that's correct. However, keep in mind, the legal entity behind TDF,
until it exists, is the German association, which is also approved for
charitable purposes and donations to it are tux-deductible. In addition,
due to this status, we are also bound by law and statutes, so the legal
backing in fact does not differ too much from a "real" foundation.

Sorry for being so touchy about this, but the last days, I got the
impression that people tend to think we have no legal backing at all or
would be very instable, which is not true.

So, yes, we are no foundation yet, but nontheless have a stable backing
that has been existing since September 2004.

Florian

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Simon Phipps Simon Phipps
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Simon Brouwer

On 9 Jun 2011, at 12:12, Simon Brouwer wrote:

> Hi Jim, all,
>
> Jim Jagielski schreef:
>>
>> On Jun 8, 2011, at 5:53 PM, Simon Phipps wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 8 Jun 2011, at 23:49, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 8, 2011, at 5:07 PM, Simon Brouwer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Op 6-6-2011 11:37, toki schreef:
>>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 05/06/2011 15:00, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A formal, legal foundation. The ASF is a recognized 501(c)3, non-
>>>>>> TDF might not have 501(c)(3) status, but then consider that it is
>>>>>> incorporated in Germany, not the United States.
>>>>> That 501(c)(3) status aside, is TDF actually a legally established
>>>>> foundation (yet)?
>>>>
>>>> I also think that 'independent' is also an adjective that belongs
>>>> there... being independent is quite important to a number
>>>> of FOSS ecosystem people...
>>>
>>> While that is clearly a true statement, you seem to be implying that you
>>> don't think TDF is "independent".  Please can you explain what you mean?
>>
>> People may just be curious about TDF being "backed" by“Freies Office
>> Deutschland
>> e.V.” as well as an associated project in Software in the Public Interest
>> (SPI).
>> What does being "backed" by them mean? How independent is it from these
>> 2 entitied? Just questions like that.
>>
>> Certainly being an independent, legally established foundation is
>> critical, isn't it, as compare to one which is "just" a legally
>> established one?
>
> But is it even "just" a legally established foundation? AFAIK, TDF unto
> this day does not exist as a legal entity.

While that's pedantically correct, TDF appears to currently be an initiative of a perfectly adequate non-profit legal entity and as such I have no problems with its existence or independence.


S.


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Simon Brouwer Simon Brouwer
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

Op 9-6-2011 16:32, Simon Phipps schreef:

> On 9 Jun 2011, at 12:12, Simon Brouwer wrote:
>
>> Hi Jim, all,
>>
>> Jim Jagielski schreef:
>>> On Jun 8, 2011, at 5:53 PM, Simon Phipps wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8 Jun 2011, at 23:49, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 8, 2011, at 5:07 PM, Simon Brouwer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Op 6-6-2011 11:37, toki schreef:
>>>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 05/06/2011 15:00, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A formal, legal foundation. The ASF is a recognized 501(c)3, non-
>>>>>>> TDF might not have 501(c)(3) status, but then consider that it is
>>>>>>> incorporated in Germany, not the United States.
>>>>>> That 501(c)(3) status aside, is TDF actually a legally established
>>>>>> foundation (yet)?
>>>>> I also think that 'independent' is also an adjective that belongs
>>>>> there... being independent is quite important to a number
>>>>> of FOSS ecosystem people...
>>>> While that is clearly a true statement, you seem to be implying that you
>>>> don't think TDF is "independent".  Please can you explain what you mean?
>>> People may just be curious about TDF being "backed" by“Freies Office
>>> Deutschland
>>> e.V.” as well as an associated project in Software in the Public Interest
>>> (SPI).
>>> What does being "backed" by them mean? How independent is it from these
>>> 2 entitied? Just questions like that.
>>>
>>> Certainly being an independent, legally established foundation is
>>> critical, isn't it, as compare to one which is "just" a legally
>>> established one?
>> But is it even "just" a legally established foundation? AFAIK, TDF unto
>> this day does not exist as a legal entity.
> While that's pedantically
thank you...
> correct, TDF appears to currently be an initiative of a perfectly adequate non-profit legal entity and as such I have no problems with its existence or independence.
I have no problems with its existence or independence either.

Anyway, I think it is high time that TDF be made a foundation proper.
Suppose Oracle had considered donating the OpenOffice.org trademarks and
copyrights to TDF. How could it be the recipient of such a donation if
it didn't exist as a legal entity?

--
Vriendelijke groet,
Simon Brouwer.

| http://nl.openoffice.org | http://www.opentaal.org |


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Volker Merschmann Volker Merschmann
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

Hi,

2011/6/9 Simon Brouwer <[hidden email]>:

> Suppose Oracle had considered donating the OpenOffice.org trademarks and
> copyrights to TDF. How could it be the recipient of such a donation if it
> didn't exist as a legal entity?
>
I'm feeling it's the hundredth time it is told: The german association
"Freies Office Deutschland e.V." is the legal represantive for the TDF
until the legal act of founding has happened. And the latter one is
not so easy to do.


Volker


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Robert Derman Robert Derman
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Simon Brouwer
Simon Brouwer wrote:

> Op 9-6-2011 16:32, Simon Phipps schreef:
>> On 9 Jun 2011, at 12:12, Simon Brouwer wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jim, all,
>>>
>>> Jim Jagielski schreef:
>>>> On Jun 8, 2011, at 5:53 PM, Simon Phipps wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8 Jun 2011, at 23:49, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 8, 2011, at 5:07 PM, Simon Brouwer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Op 6-6-2011 11:37, toki schreef:
>>>>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 05/06/2011 15:00, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A formal, legal foundation. The ASF is a recognized 501(c)3, non-
>>>>>>>> TDF might not have 501(c)(3) status, but then consider that it is
>>>>>>>> incorporated in Germany, not the United States.
>>>>>>> That 501(c)(3) status aside, is TDF actually a legally established
>>>>>>> foundation (yet)?
>>>>>> I also think that 'independent' is also an adjective that belongs
>>>>>> there... being independent is quite important to a number
>>>>>> of FOSS ecosystem people...
>>>>> While that is clearly a true statement, you seem to be implying
>>>>> that you
>>>>> don't think TDF is "independent".  Please can you explain what you
>>>>> mean?
>>>> People may just be curious about TDF being "backed" by“Freies Office
>>>> Deutschland
>>>> e.V.” as well as an associated project in Software in the Public
>>>> Interest
>>>> (SPI).
>>>> What does being "backed" by them mean? How independent is it from
>>>> these
>>>> 2 entitied? Just questions like that.
>>>>
>>>> Certainly being an independent, legally established foundation is
>>>> critical, isn't it, as compare to one which is "just" a legally
>>>> established one?
>>> But is it even "just" a legally established foundation? AFAIK, TDF unto
>>> this day does not exist as a legal entity.
>> While that's pedantically
> thank you...
>> correct, TDF appears to currently be an initiative of a perfectly
>> adequate non-profit legal entity and as such I have no problems with
>> its existence or independence.
> I have no problems with its existence or independence either.
>
> Anyway, I think it is high time that TDF be made a foundation proper.
> Suppose Oracle had considered donating the OpenOffice.org trademarks
> and copyrights to TDF. How could it be the recipient of such a
> donation if it didn't exist as a legal entity?
>
+1

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Simon Phipps Simon Phipps
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Simon Brouwer

On 9 Jun 2011, at 19:47, Simon Brouwer wrote:

> Anyway, I think it is high time that TDF be made a foundation proper. Suppose Oracle had considered donating the OpenOffice.org trademarks and copyrights to TDF. How could it be the recipient of such a donation if it didn't exist as a legal entity?

Really easily. Either the current legal entity by which TDF will be incorporated, Freies Office Deutschland eV, could accept the donation, or the US agent retained by them, Software in the Public Interest (SPI) could accept it on their behalf (as will still be the case once TDF is incorporated - TDF will not need a US subsidiary in order to accept donations, because of SPI).

Time for this "does not exist" meme to end, it is baseless and it is unhelpful to perpetuate it after so many people have explained that fact.

S.


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Robert Derman Robert Derman
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Volker Merschmann
Volker Merschmann wrote:

> Hi,
>
> 2011/6/9 Simon Brouwer <[hidden email]>:
>
>  
>> Suppose Oracle had considered donating the OpenOffice.org trademarks and
>> copyrights to TDF. How could it be the recipient of such a donation if it
>> didn't exist as a legal entity?
>>
>>    
> I'm feeling it's the hundredth time it is told: The german association
> "Freies Office Deutschland e.V." is the legal represantive for the TDF
> until the legal act of founding has happened. And the latter one is
> not so easy to do.
>
> Volker
>  
My Deutsch isn't the best, I am guessing that the literal translation of
the above is Freedom Office Germany e.V. whatever the e. V. stands for.  
Anyway a non legaleze explanation of what is happening and what must
happen for TDF to be a full official foundation would be appreciated.

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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

On 06/10/2011 12:06 AM, Robert Derman wrote:

> My Deutsch isn't the best, I am guessing that the literal translation of
> the above is Freedom Office Germany e.V. whatever the e. V. stands for.
> Anyway a non legaleze explanation of what is happening and what must
> happen for TDF to be a full official foundation would be appreciated.

There are several description and updates of the process on TDF blog,
and everything is in English.

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Simon Phipps Simon Phipps
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Robert Derman

On 9 Jun 2011, at 23:06, Robert Derman wrote:

> Volker Merschmann wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> 2011/6/9 Simon Brouwer <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>  
>>> Suppose Oracle had considered donating the OpenOffice.org trademarks and
>>> copyrights to TDF. How could it be the recipient of such a donation if it
>>> didn't exist as a legal entity?
>>>
>>>    
>> I'm feeling it's the hundredth time it is told: The german association
>> "Freies Office Deutschland e.V." is the legal represantive for the TDF
>> until the legal act of founding has happened. And the latter one is
>> not so easy to do.
>>
>> Volker
>>  
> My Deutsch isn't the best, I am guessing that the literal translation of the above is Freedom Office Germany e.V. whatever the e. V. stands for.  Anyway a non legaleze explanation of what is happening and what must happen for TDF to be a full official foundation would be appreciated.

I'll try to explain as I understand it.

Disclaimer:
I just an ordinary TDF member, not on the Board and with no official standing. This is just the view I have gained by reading the mailing list and wiki. I am English and have limited German skills, so this may contain errors and I welcome corrections.
 

Summary:
There is already "a full official foundation" involved - FrODeV - with LibreOffice effectively one of its projects, but its mission statement is more general than just LibreOffice so it is in the process of spinning out a new entity to look after LibreOffice.


Detail:
There is already a non-profit in existence; it's name is "Freies Office Deutschland e.V." ("eV" is a German suffix a bit like "Ltd" or "Inc"), but it's easier to call it FrODeV for short[1]. It is a fully-functional German non-profit with bylaws[2], accounts[3] and everything. It has existed for a number of years and exists to support and promote open source office suites.  
It used to be called OpenOffice.org Deutschland eV but changed its name[1] when the LibreOffice project started so its scope was clearly all open source office suites. FrODeV has been running a separate asset pool[4] for LibreOffice, and has expressed its intent to spin out a new, capital-backed non-profit organisation to look after that asset pool.
To do that, FrODeV needs a set of voting members, an elected Board, a set of bylaws and a capital sum in the asset pool. Once it has all those, it can incorporate the new entity and spin it out. So a timeline of that process looks like this:
  1. FrODeV starts the process of hosting TDF with the intent of it being an incorporated capital-holding non-profit foundation in Germany (Stiftung)
  2. A Steering Committee is appointed to handle TDF's affairs, under the oversight of FrODeV
  3. The necessary capital sum is obtained from donors
  4. Bylaws are devised
  5. A membership is identified according to the bylaws
  6. The membership elects a Board of Directors
  7. FrODeV incorporates the Stiftung, as "Stifter" (founder/donor).
  8. TDF now exists as a legal entity independent of FrODeV

The process has reached stage 5, and stage 6 is imminent. There has been and as far as I can tell will never be a point in this process where there is no "full official foundation" in existence.


Hope that helps,

S.





Google Translate[5] works well for these links:
[1] http://www.frodev.org/
[2] http://www.frodev.org/satzung
[3] http://www.frodev.org/downloads-1
[4] http://www.frodev.org/spenden (at the bottom)
[5] http://translate.google.com/
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Manfred Usselmann Manfred Usselmann
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

On Thu, 9 Jun 2011 23:44:15 +0100
Simon Phipps <[hidden email]> wrote:

[...]

> Detail:
> There is already a non-profit in existence; it's name is "Freies
> Office Deutschland e.V." ("eV" is a German suffix a bit like "Ltd" or
> "Inc"),

e.V. = registered association


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Simon Phipps Simon Phipps
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice


On 10 Jun 2011, at 00:24, Manfred Usselmann wrote:

> On Thu, 9 Jun 2011 23:44:15 +0100
> Simon Phipps <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Detail:
>> There is already a non-profit in existence; it's name is "Freies
>> Office Deutschland e.V." ("eV" is a German suffix a bit like "Ltd" or
>> "Inc"),
>
> e.V. = registered association

Thanks - I was just drawing a comparison with something familiar for non-German readers :-)

S.


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Manfred Usselmann Manfred Usselmann
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Simon Brouwer
On Thu, 9 Jun 2011 13:12:32 +0200
"Simon Brouwer" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Jim, all,
>
> Jim Jagielski schreef:
> >
> > On Jun 8, 2011, at 5:53 PM, Simon Phipps wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On 8 Jun 2011, at 23:49, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On Jun 8, 2011, at 5:07 PM, Simon Brouwer wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Op 6-6-2011 11:37, toki schreef:
> >>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >>>>> Hash: SHA1
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 05/06/2011 15:00, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> A formal, legal foundation. The ASF is a recognized 501(c)3,
> >>>>>> non-
> >>>>> TDF might not have 501(c)(3) status, but then consider that it
> >>>>> is incorporated in Germany, not the United States.
> >>>> That 501(c)(3) status aside, is TDF actually a legally
> >>>> established foundation (yet)?
> >>>
> >>> I also think that 'independent' is also an adjective that belongs
> >>> there... being independent is quite important to a number
> >>> of FOSS ecosystem people...
> >>
> >> While that is clearly a true statement, you seem to be implying
> >> that you don't think TDF is "independent".  Please can you explain
> >> what you mean?
> >
> > People may just be curious about TDF being "backed" by“Freies Office
> > Deutschland
> > e.V.” as well as an associated project in Software in the Public
> > Interest (SPI).
> > What does being "backed" by them mean? How independent is it from
> > these 2 entitied? Just questions like that.
> >
> > Certainly being an independent, legally established foundation is
> > critical, isn't it, as compare to one which is "just" a legally
> > established one?
>
> But is it even "just" a legally established foundation? AFAIK, TDF
> unto this day does not exist as a legal entity.

At the moment the legal entity is "Freies Office Deutschland
e.V." (e.V. = eingetragener Verein = incorporated society / registered
association). TDF is part of it. The by-laws of FrODeV explicitely
cater for such situations. So please stop spreading such nonsense that
TDF is not legally cabable of acting.


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Manfred A. Reiter Manfred A. Reiter
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Simon Phipps
Hi Simon,

2011/6/10 Simon Phipps <[hidden email]>:

>
> On 10 Jun 2011, at 00:24, Manfred Usselmann wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 9 Jun 2011 23:44:15 +0100
>> Simon Phipps <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> Detail:
>>> There is already a non-profit in existence; it's name is "Freies
>>> Office Deutschland e.V." ("eV" is a German suffix a bit like "Ltd" or
>>> "Inc"),
>>
>> e.V. = registered association
>

- e. V. - excerpt from Wikipedia
- translated by Google Emphasis added by MR

Registered associations are legal entities.
*They are the full legal capacity*, which means they can themselves as
*legal subjects* to have *rights* and *obligations* are. You can sue
and be sued. The Board represents the Association externally.
[...]
As the registered club members, regardless of its existence, it is a
*corporation* under *private law.*

HTH

an other Manfred

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Robert Derman
Hi,

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 01:06, Robert Derman
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Anyway a non legaleze explanation of what is happening and what must happen
> for TDF to be a full official foundation would be appreciated.

TDF's Steering Committee holds an open phone conference about once a
week, and Florian Effenberger is almost always in attendance. Florian
is the guy who is handling a lot of the procedures for the setting-up
of the foundation. He generally gives updates on the subject at each
meeting.

If you're really interested, listen in to the next meeting, or
download the recordings of past meetings.

There is always an open question session for non-SC members to bring
up subjects for discussion with the SC.

To clarify any doubts in people's minds, there is regular and constant
progress on the issue, and SC elections are also on the agenda and
coming soon.

--
David Nelson

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Simon Brouwer Simon Brouwer
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Simon Phipps
Op 10-6-2011 0:44, Simon Phipps schreef:

> On 9 Jun 2011, at 23:06, Robert Derman wrote:
>
>> Volker Merschmann wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> 2011/6/9 Simon Brouwer<[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Suppose Oracle had considered donating the OpenOffice.org trademarks and
>>>> copyrights to TDF. How could it be the recipient of such a donation if it
>>>> didn't exist as a legal entity?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I'm feeling it's the hundredth time it is told: The german association
>>> "Freies Office Deutschland e.V." is the legal represantive for the TDF
>>> until the legal act of founding has happened. And the latter one is
>>> not so easy to do.
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>> My Deutsch isn't the best, I am guessing that the literal translation of the above is Freedom Office Germany e.V. whatever the e. V. stands for.  Anyway a non legaleze explanation of what is happening and what must happen for TDF to be a full official foundation would be appreciated.
> I'll try to explain as I understand it.
>
> Disclaimer:
> I just an ordinary TDF member, not on the Board and with no official standing. This is just the view I have gained by reading the mailing list and wiki. I am English and have limited German skills, so this may contain errors and I welcome corrections.
>
>
> Summary:
> There is already "a full official foundation" involved - FrODeV - with LibreOffice effectively one of its projects, but its mission statement is more general than just LibreOffice so it is in the process of spinning out a new entity to look after LibreOffice.
>
>
> Detail:
> There is already a non-profit in existence; it's name is "Freies Office Deutschland e.V." ("eV" is a German suffix a bit like "Ltd" or "Inc"), but it's easier to call it FrODeV for short[1]. It is a fully-functional German non-profit with bylaws[2], accounts[3] and everything. It has existed for a number of years and exists to support and promote open source office suites.
> It used to be called OpenOffice.org Deutschland eV but changed its name[1] when the LibreOffice project started so its scope was clearly all open source office suites. FrODeV has been running a separate asset pool[4] for LibreOffice, and has expressed its intent to spin out a new, capital-backed non-profit organisation to look after that asset pool.
> To do that, FrODeV needs a set of voting members, an elected Board, a set of bylaws and a capital sum in the asset pool. Once it has all those, it can incorporate the new entity and spin it out. So a timeline of that process looks like this:
>    1. FrODeV starts the process of hosting TDF with the intent of it being an incorporated capital-holding non-profit foundation in Germany (Stiftung)
>    2. A Steering Committee is appointed to handle TDF's affairs, under the oversight of FrODeV
>    3. The necessary capital sum is obtained from donors
>    4. Bylaws are devised
>    5. A membership is identified according to the bylaws
>    6. The membership elects a Board of Directors
>    7. FrODeV incorporates the Stiftung, as "Stifter" (founder/donor).
>    8. TDF now exists as a legal entity independent of FrODeV
>
> The process has reached stage 5, and stage 6 is imminent. There has been and as far as I can tell will never be a point in this process where there is no "full official foundation" in existence.

I don't understand your reasoning in that last part.

Yes there is an existing legal entity in the picture, but it is not TDF
but FroDEV, and it is not a foundation but an association.

--
Vriendelijke groet,
Simon Brouwer.

| http://nl.openoffice.org | http://www.opentaal.org |


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Simon Brouwer Simon Brouwer
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Simon Phipps
Hi Simon,

Simon Phipps schreef:

>
> On 9 Jun 2011, at 19:47, Simon Brouwer wrote:
>
>> Anyway, I think it is high time that TDF be made a foundation proper.
>> Suppose Oracle had considered donating the OpenOffice.org trademarks and
>> copyrights to TDF. How could it be the recipient of such a donation if
>> it didn't exist as a legal entity?
>
> Really easily. Either the current legal entity by which TDF will be
> incorporated, Freies Office Deutschland eV, could accept the donation, or
> the US agent retained by them, Software in the Public Interest (SPI) could
> accept it on their behalf (as will still be the case once TDF is
> incorporated - TDF will not need a US subsidiary in order to accept
> donations, because of SPI).

I am not sure how much legal sense "accepting on behalf of TDF" makes as
long as TDF is not a legal entity. In any case the existing situation
makes matters complicated and unclear.

> Time for this "does not exist" meme to end, it is baseless and it is
> unhelpful to perpetuate it after so many people have explained that fact.

I am not saying TDF "does not exist", I'm pointing out that it is high
time it gets the firm legal status that it needs IMO. As the president of
a foundation myself I should have some idea what I'm talking about.

--
Vriendelijke groet,

Simon Brouwer
-*- nl.openoffice.org -*- http://www.opentaal.org -*-


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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Simon Brouwer
On 6/10/11 8:25 AM, Simon Brouwer wrote:

> Yes there is an existing legal entity in the picture, but it is not TDF
> but FroDEV, and it is not a foundation but an association.

This discussion would have a "foundation" if during the process someone
had asked TDF to provide additional information on this topic, but as no
one has ever replied to TDF proposal, it is rather evident that Oracle
decision has just ignored TDF proposal ex ante.

--
Italo Vignoli
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Italo Vignoli
Director - The Document Foundation
Simon Phipps Simon Phipps
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Simon Brouwer

On 10 Jun 2011, at 07:25, Simon Brouwer wrote:

>
> I don't understand your reasoning in that last part.

In which case, having already made a huge effort to explain clearly and factually, I give up.

> Yes there is an existing legal entity in the picture, but it is not TDF but FroDEV, and it is not a foundation but an association.

Makes no difference in this instance. I suggest you find someone who understands to have an in-person conversation with them.

S.



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BRM BRM
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Simon Phipps

----- Original Message ----
> From: Simon Phipps <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Thu, June 9, 2011 5:56:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache
OpenOffice

>
>
> On 9 Jun 2011, at 19:47, Simon Brouwer wrote:
>
> > Anyway, I think it  is high time that TDF be made a foundation proper.
>Suppose Oracle had considered  donating the OpenOffice.org trademarks and
>copyrights to TDF. How could it be the recipient of such a  donation if it
>didn't exist as a legal entity?
>
> Really easily. Either the  current legal entity by which TDF will be
>incorporated, Freies Office  Deutschland eV, could accept the donation, or the
>US agent retained by them,  Software in the Public Interest (SPI) could accept
>it on their behalf (as will  still be the case once TDF is incorporated - TDF
>will not need a US subsidiary  in order to accept donations, because of SPI).
>
> Time for this "does not  exist" meme to end, it is baseless and it is unhelpful
>to perpetuate it after so  many people have explained that fact.
>


You know, usually when an organization (such as TDF) is legally owned by  
another organization you list it at the bottom of the web-page where  you are
stating information about copyright, trademarks, etc - e.g. TDF  is a wholly
owned by FroDEV.
As it is, looking over TDF's website, the only place I can really find  any
information related to FroDEV is on through the link by "Impressum (Legal
Info)", not in the text next to it, not on the contact info, not on the link
describing the "Foundation".
To me, that says TDF at minimum trying to distance itself from FroDEV -  not
necessarily your intention, but that's how it comes across. It also  doesn't
give confidence that TDF is a legal entity or owned by a  signular legal entity
as you are stating.

Clearly marking the website, signatures, etc. for TDF would probably go a long
ways in helping to end that conversation.

$0.02

Ben


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