Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

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Thorsten Behrens Thorsten Behrens
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

Allen Pulsifer wrote:
> Thorsten Behrens wrote:
> > ...you don't discuss e.g. trademark issues on a public list, if you want
> to stand a chance actually obtaining it.
>
> I can see how you might believe this, but I'm not sure it is grounded in
> fact or experience.
>
Hi Allen, oh, I was referring to LibreOffice / TDF here.

> [handing OOo to ASF]
>
> Regardless of who's "fault" this is, had the discussions been done in public
> and involved all of the community instead of a select group, the results
> might have been different.
>
You lost me here - it was Oracle who decided this behind closed
doors. If that was the point you wanted to make earlier, then I of
course agree that this was unfortunate.

> That's water under the bridge at this point, but given the
> results, a little bit of introspection and willingness to make
> accommodations might benefit everyone.
>
That's universally true, indeed. :)

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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BRM BRM
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Jim Jagielski
It's also not located on _every_ page on the TDF/LO websites. The text I quoted
is, and the change I called for would be.

Ben



----- Original Message ----
> From: Jim Jagielski <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 11:28:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache
OpenOffice

>
> Maybe it's a language issue, but no, the imprint does nothing
> at all to make  it clear. It simply says, in effect, FroDev wrote
> the content and they are  responsible for the content on
> the site. It says nothing at all about the  legal structure
> at all.
>
> On Jun 15, 2011, at 10:54 AM, Florian  Effenberger wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > BRM wrote on 2011-06-15  15.47:
> >> should be updated to reflect the legal reality that while TDF  is being
>setup it
> >> is an sub-entity of FroDeV; listing out who  specifically owns the
>trademarks,
> >> etc. That would go a long way in  saying TDF is or is backed by an actual
>legal
> >
> > hm, isn't this  the exact information contained in the imprint? It reads:
> >
> >  [...]
> > The party responsible for the content of this website is:
> >
> > Freies Office Deutschland e.V.
> > Riederbergstr. 92
> > 65195  Wiesbaden
> > Deutschland/Germany
> >
> > E-mail address: [hidden email]
> > Website:  http://www.frodev.org
> >
> > Vertretungsberechtigter Vorstand/Board of  Directors:
> > Thomas Krumbein (Vorsitzender), Jacqueline Rahemipour,  Florian Effenberger
>(Anschrift jeweils wie oben)
> > [...]
> >
> >  Florian
> >
> > --
> > Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]>
> >  Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
> > Tel:  +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
> > Skype: floeff |  Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff
> >
> > --
> > Unsubscribe  instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
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> >
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Davide Dozza Davide Dozza
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Allen Pulsifer
Il 15/06/2011 17:44, Allen Pulsifer ha scritto:

> Thorsten Behrens wrote:
>> ...you don't discuss e.g. trademark issues on a public list, if you want
> to stand a chance actually obtaining it.
>
> I can see how you might believe this, but I'm not sure it is grounded in
> fact or experience.  In fact, look at where we ended up:
>
> - Oracle pulled all resources from the project.
>  
> - TdF did not obtain the trademark or the openoffice.org domain.
>
> - The community ended up fractured.
>
> Regardless of who's "fault" this is, had the discussions been done in public
> and involved all of the community instead of a select group, the results
> might have been different.  That's water under the bridge at this point, but
> given the results, a little bit of introspection and willingness to make
> accommodations might benefit everyone.

Sorry Allen but you are in contradiction. Before you say "Regardless of
who's fault" and at the end it seems you are accusing TDF to be the
cause of the community fracture.

I just want to remember you we have been discussing about a foundation
since 2003. Sun/IBM before and then Oracle/IBM after, always in silence.

Don't you think people can become tired of non-changing things?
Don't you think the introspection should be made on both parts?

Anyway, maybe TDF (and Sun/Oracle/IBM) made some mistakes but to keep
discussing about spilt milk is completely useless.

Davide


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Allen Pulsifer Allen Pulsifer
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Simon Brouwer
Davide Dozza wrote:
> Sorry Allen but you are in contradiction. Before you say "Regardless of
who's fault" and at the end
> it seems you are accusing TDF to be the cause of the community fracture.

I made no accusations and assigned no fault.  I'm also not interested in
assigning fault or blame.  That's an unfortunate distraction it seems many
have gotten caught up in, and IMO, it has only hurt the project not helped
it.  On that point, let me be clear: There are millions of potential users
for OOo, LO, and open document formats.  Many of those potential users work
in companies, government agencies and other organizations that routinely
trust Microsoft, Oracle, IBM and other large corporations to meet their IT
needs.  Getting in a public spat with any of those companies does not help
the project in the least, it only hurts it.  End users do not care about
who's right, who's wrong, who's been slighted, who is more pure, etc.  They
just care about products and technologies that are going to meet their
needs.  For many users, the best thing OOo had going for it was that it was
backed by Sun and there was a commercial version users they could turn to if
they needed support, etc.  Now that Oracle has pulled out, that is gone and
TdF cannot replace it.  Regardless of individual feelings, the best the TdF
and its members could do at this point would be to put on a smiling face,
magnanimously congratulate the ASF for joining the community, and at least
make it look like they were working closely with IBM to bring the best
possible open document technologies to the world.  If most or almost all of
the LO contributors joined the Apache OpenOffice project, if only to lend
moral support and help heal the rift, that would only be good for LO and the
TdF.  The best time to do that is now.

Best Regards,

Allen



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Thorsten Behrens Thorsten Behrens
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

Allen Pulsifer wrote:
> If most or almost all of the LO contributors joined the Apache
> OpenOffice project, if only to lend moral support and help heal
> the rift, that would only be good for LO and the TdF.
>
Allen, how can you, with a straight face, ask people here to come
over to a different project, that likely noone here is really happy
with, that was setup as a fait acompli, marketed as the "natural
upstream", removes rights from people's contributions, and is
effectively competing (by how the proposal reads)?

Whatever good intentions you may have, but basic psychology must
tell you that this "hey folks, come all over, we need your help
here" is not gonna fly - quite the contrary, it comes across as
rather condescending.

Please move to a different strategy - if your intentions are good,
the current one is not helping your cause - if they're ill, I'm even
less willing to tolerate it.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Friedrich Strohmaier Friedrich Strohmaier
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Allen Pulsifer
Hi Allen, *,

Allen Pulsifer schrieb:

> On that point, let me be clear: There are
> millions of potential users for OOo, LO, and open document formats.
> Many of those potential users work in companies, government agencies
> and other organizations that routinely trust Microsoft, Oracle, IBM
> and other large corporations to meet their IT needs.  Getting in a
> public spat with any of those companies does not help the project in
> the least, it only hurts it.  End users do not care about who's
> right, who's wrong, who's been slighted, who is more pure, etc.  They
> just care about products and technologies that are going to meet
> their needs.

Well, for a healthy community not *only* happy end users are an essetial
ingredient as aren't *only* happy coders.

If it isn't possible to achive having all parts of the community happy
and that way satisfying a significant range of end users (which I also
count as part of it) then we definitly should rethink the questions: who
are we? Where do we go?

> For many users, the best thing OOo had going for it was
> that it was backed by Sun and there was a commercial version users
> they could turn to if they needed support, etc.

Did You ask some of them about the degree of happyness with the results.
I'd be interested to read positive feedback regarding this (preferably
big numbers!).

> Now that Oracle has pulled out, that is gone and TdF cannot replace
> it.  Regardless of individual feelings, the best the TdF and its
> members could do at this point would be to put on a smiling face,
> magnanimously congratulate the ASF for joining the community, and at
> least make it look like they were working closely with IBM to bring
> the best possible open document technologies to the world.  If most or
> almost all of the LO contributors joined the Apache OpenOffice
> project, if only to lend moral support and help heal the rift, that
> would only be good for LO and the TdF.  The best time to do that is
> now.

Simply don't agree - as of having bad *experience* regarding a big
company beeing bad balanced power community member.

I notice Your claims beeing questions of faith packed as facts and put
mine at the opposite side. So 1:1 ;o))

Gruß/regards
--
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images


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Greg Stein Greg Stein
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Thorsten Behrens
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 17:53, Thorsten Behrens
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>...
> Allen, how can you, with a straight face, ask people here to come
> over to a different project, that likely noone here is really happy
> with, that was setup as a fait acompli, marketed as the "natural
> upstream", removes rights from people's contributions, and is
> effectively competing (by how the proposal reads)?

I don't really want to debate most of your points because (frankly)
some of it is true. Arguable to some extent, blah blah blah. :-)

But the one point that I'm curious about: how can you say that Apache
"removes rights from people's contributions"? As a developer, you
still own your code. You can do whatever you like with it. Apache
doesn't take anything from You.

Did I misunderstand you in some way?

Cheers,
-g

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Pedro Pedro
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

Greg Stein wrote
 how can you say that Apache
"removes rights from people's contributions"? As a developer, you
still own your code. You can do whatever you like with it. Apache
doesn't take anything from You.
Easy. Even a non-developer like myself can see that :)

Compared to GPL (which is what Apache is asking developers to give up on) it removes the right to be given back any improvement or fix to the code you contributed.

Since many people are doing this pro bono, I think that it is fair that at least they retain the right to have access to any fix or improvement to their code.

Under the Apache license any company can take your code, fix it and say: "Hey, this function in the open source version doesn't work. I just spend a day fixing it (instead of  months to write it from scratch). Why don't you buy mine which works?"
Simon Phipps Simon Phipps
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice


On 16 Jun 2011, at 09:27, plino wrote:

>
> Greg Stein wrote:
>>
>> how can you say that Apache
>> "removes rights from people's contributions"? As a developer, you
>> still own your code. You can do whatever you like with it. Apache
>> doesn't take anything from You.
>>
>
> Easy. Even a non-developer like myself can see that :)
>
> Compared to GPL (which is what Apache is asking developers to give up on) it
> removes the right to be given back any improvement or fix to the code you
> contributed.
>
> Since many people are doing this pro bono, I think that it is fair that at
> least they retain the right to have access to any fix or improvement to
> their code.
>
> Under the Apache license any company can take your code, fix it and say:
> "Hey, this function in the open source version doesn't work. I just spend a
> day fixing it (instead of  months to write it from scratch). Why don't you
> buy mine which works?"


And right there you have both reached a point so familiar that even I have written an article about it:
http://webmink.com/essays/causality/
"The fact it is still an open question after nearly 30 years of free and open source software experience suggests both outlooks have merits, and we’ll not resolve the question here!"

S.


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Augustine Souza Augustine Souza
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Allen Pulsifer
On 6/15/11, Allen Pulsifer <[hidden email]> wrote:
...
> End users do not care about
> who's right, who's wrong, who's been slighted, who is more pure, etc.  They
> just care about products and technologies that are going to meet their
> needs.

Painting quite a poor picture of end users? Are they really like that?
Or do we say so to support our argument?

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timofonic timofonic timofonic timofonic
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

There are end users that care of freedom in a broad sense. I'm one of
them, using Linux-based systems since late 90s :)

And we aren't so few, because the number is growing and specially in
this worldwide economical crisis. You can see by objective stadistics
that the adoption of FOSS is bigger in economically poorer (I dislike
the "poor" term in essence, but..) countries than economically richer
ones.

The need of a corporate entity that monopolizes the support is
contrary to the spirit of Open/Free Source. The same work can be done
by local companies, improve competing and also those smaller companies
can contribute in developing the product too.

You can also follow the Mozilla approach, but that's a very different
and difficult topic.

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:18 PM, Augustine Souza <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 6/15/11, Allen Pulsifer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...
>> End users do not care about
>> who's right, who's wrong, who's been slighted, who is more pure, etc.  They
>> just care about products and technologies that are going to meet their
>> needs.
>
> Painting quite a poor picture of end users? Are they really like that?
> Or do we say so to support our argument?
>
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>

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Allen Pulsifer Allen Pulsifer
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Thorsten Behrens
Allen Pulsifer wrote:
> If most or almost all of the LO contributors joined the Apache
> OpenOffice project, if only to lend moral support and help heal the
> rift, that would only be good for LO and the TdF.

> Thorsten Behrens wrote:
> Allen, how can you, with a straight face, ask people here to come over to
a different project,
> that likely noone here is really happy with, that was setup as a fait
acompli, marketed as the
> "natural upstream", removes rights from people's contributions, and is
effectively competing
> (by how the proposal reads)?

Hello Thorsten,

I do not agree with your conclusion that the Apache OpenOffice project is a
competing project.  You simply chose to view it that way.  There are others,
such as myself, who view it as a potential upstream project, where all of
the contributions at the upstream project can be used by LibreOffce.  In
that respect, it is similar to python, java, boost, hsqldb, libjpeg, curl,
lpsolve, or anyone of hundreds of other project.  Are those competing
projects?

Second, I can recommend that LibreOffice contributors join Apache OpenOffice
because I am firmly convinced that would be in the best interests of the
LibreOffice project.  Amazingly, your response does not even argue
otherwise.  Instead, your response focuses on the fact even if it were in
the best interests of the LibreOffice project, for personal reasons you
would never consider reconciling with it.  That to me is just astounding,
that you are open and brazen about putting your personal issues ahead of the
project.

Here's what could have been: The world could have woken up one morning to an
announcement by the TdF congratulating the Apache Foundation for joining the
OpenOffice community, and stating that it was looking forward to working
with Apache, IBM and all other interested parties to create the best
possible open document technologies, and that the TdF would be incorporating
those technologies into LibreOffice in order to make it the best end-user
office suite possible.  The world could have then read in the press and
trade magazines that virtually all of the LibreOffice developers had joined
the Apache OpenOffice project, that the community had been reunited and that
the future was bright.  The end users (remember the end users, the ones I
talked about in my last post that you seem intent on ignoring?), heartened
by the optimistic message and comforted by the reunification of the
community, would have come back off the sidelines looking to benefit from
the project, and many of them would have discovered LibreOffice.  The
LibreOffice project would when be boosted by thousands of new users, and
possibly could over time have developed a reputation as the best OpenOffice
package.

Instead, due to your personal issues, the world has heard a much different
story: that you were dissed or slighted; that there is possibly some problem
with the TdF or LibreOffice that people keep talking about, and no matter
how much it is denied, the nagging feeling persists that it might be true;
and that the LibreOffice community refuses to work with IBM or the Apache
Foundation for personal reasons.

It seems that your story about being dissed or slighted in one of your
favorite stories, and you are determined to keep telling it for a long time.
I'm quite certain that the end users (remember the end users, the ones I
talked about in my last post that you seem intent on ignoring?) aren't
interested in that story.

With just a few simple actions on your part, you could have accomplished in
a few minutes what would have taken you at least a year to accomplish with
just programming (if it can even be accomplished that way at all).  That's
right, in this world, marketing matters.  User perception matters.  The best
mouse trap does not always win.  A few positives stories in the press can
make or break a fledgling project.  You can spend years developing software,
and then sabotage it in a minute with a poor marketing decision.  Such is
that nature of business.

So my all means, continue forward with your decision that your personal
story is what really matters.  That is your prerogative.  Meanwhile, the
LibreOffice project will never be what it could have been.  The opportunity
that has been lost will never come back again.  That is the tragedy.

Best Regards,

Allen



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BRM BRM
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Pedro
----- Original Message ----

> From: plino <[hidden email]>
> Greg Stein wrote:
> >  how can you say that Apache
> >  "removes rights from people's contributions"? As a developer, you
> > still  own your code. You can do whatever you like with it. Apache
> > doesn't take  anything from You.
> >
>
> Easy. Even a non-developer like myself can  see that :)
>
> Compared to GPL (which is what Apache is asking developers  to give up on) it
> removes the right to be given back any improvement or fix  to the code you
> contributed.
> Since many people are doing this pro  bono, I think that it is fair that at
> least they retain the right to have  access to any fix or improvement to
> their code.

Even the GPL does not provide that right. If a company wanted it could take a
GPL product, make whatever changes it wanted, and distribute it internally to
itself without ever contributing back to the community as a whole.
Likewise, it could also distribute that same project to its customers, making
the source available to them and them alone. The community will may never see
any changes from them; yet that is perfectly valid under all Open Source
licenses - even the GPL.

Nothing forces people to work with the community. No license can do that. So
please do yourself a favor and put that notion - the myth - aside.

GPL, like all Open Source licenses, is about the end-user NOT the developer.
Yes, there are a lot of developers that are also end-users, and developers are
required to help make Open Source open source, but ultimately it is about
providing a product to end-users with the same rights, etc that you had to start
with.

Now, granted, the Apache License is more liberal in that it allows companies to
not have to pass on those same rights; that is the difference - it doesn't
require that they also make the source available to the end-user. So IBM is free
to develop Symphony without having to provide source to the end-users. But there
is nothing preventing them from having Symphony derived from LibreOffice under
the LGPL and not providing any changes back to LibreOffice either; they only
have to provide the source (in that case) to the end-users _upon request_ for up
to 3 years for each version they release from the time they make the "sale".
(See the GPL license.)
 
 
> Under the Apache  license any company can take your code, fix it and say:
> "Hey, this function  in the open source version doesn't work. I just spend a
> day fixing it  (instead of  months to write it from scratch). Why don't you
> buy mine  which works?"

They can do that under the GPL too.

Ben


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Simon Phipps Simon Phipps
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Allen Pulsifer
Hi Allen,

While I am rather tired of this combative thread of discussion and think it is way overdue for it to stop, you make some statements that can't be left unchallenged.

On 16 Jun 2011, at 15:43, Allen Pulsifer wrote:

> Allen Pulsifer wrote:
>
> Hello Thorsten,
>
> I do not agree with your conclusion that the Apache OpenOffice project is a
> competing project.  You simply chose to view it that way.

The main proposer of the project, Rob Weir of IBM, clearly stated his intent for it to be a competing project - he even accused me of being potentially in breach of anti-trust law on the Apache list[1], and has just re-asserted his view on his blog[2]. So while many of us had hoped for a collaborative approach, there are powerful forces who don't want that.
>
> Here's what could have been: The world could have woken up one morning to an
> announcement by the TdF congratulating the Apache Foundation for joining the
> OpenOffice community

The TDF press release was in fact remarkably positive considering the situation[3], welcomed the move and offered scope for discussion over collaboration.

> So my all means, continue forward with your decision that your personal
> story is what really matters.  That is your prerogative.  Meanwhile, the
> LibreOffice project will never be what it could have been.  The opportunity
> that has been lost will never come back again.  That is the tragedy.

The tragedy is that people want to keep this divisive argument alive way beyond its sell-by date. I think it's time to stop it, and either to focus on the project that you want to work on or seek positively for ways to create collaborations.

Cheers,

Simon





[1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201106.mbox/%3COF225FDF79.6BEBC50B-ON852578A7.00052DA4-852578A7.00065133@...%3E
[2] http://www.robweir.com/blog/2011/06/openoffice-libreoffice-and-the-scarcity-fallacy.html
[3] http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/06/01/statement-about-oracles-move-to-donate-openoffice-org-assets-to-the-apache-foundation/
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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Allen Pulsifer
On 6/16/11 4:43 PM, Allen Pulsifer wrote:

> So my all means, continue forward with your decision that your personal
> story is what really matters.  That is your prerogative.  Meanwhile, the
> LibreOffice project will never be what it could have been.  The opportunity
> that has been lost will never come back again.  That is the tragedy.

It looks like you have different views from ours, and ours are as
legitimate as yours (unless you belong to the same family of Rob Weir,
who assumes to be the only person with legitimate views about TDF and
LibreOffice).

Opportunities are symmetrical, while this opportunity looks asymmetrical
(we have the opportunity of reuniting the community under the ASF
umbrella, while ASF has not the opportunity of reuniting the community
inside TDF mixing bowl).

I understand that you are very happy with the ASF project. If you are
happy we are happy for you. Users will decide on their own: they don't
need your suggestions.

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Italo Vignoli
Director - The Document Foundation
timofonic timofonic timofonic timofonic
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Allen Pulsifer
Hello Allen.

I'm just an end user with low money incomes that likes to know about
the project but here are my opinions.

I see LibreOffice a success, the community surpassed problems and is
getting very popular. Why starting to make a project with a very
similar codebase at the last time instead joining the effort? Who's
splitting the community now? ;)

The way is that Apache Foundation and Oracle/IBM are dictating the
conditions instead of a negotiating them with the successful and
community backed project (LibreOffice) is insulting to the project
itself. Why is their license and maintaining approach better than the
one from The Document Foundation? They want to rule the community, not
becoming part of it.

I'm not so happy with your all of your rhetoric in your words. You are
writing long statements full of marketing and political phrases. Maybe
it's just a matter of corporate culture? ;)

Java is a bad example and you should know that, because there are tons
of proprietary or forked third party run-times instead a proper one
and the language was governed in a very dictatorship way. That gave
many problems both in technological and community sides.

Anyway, I see *a lot* more successful GPL projects than BSD-like ones.
Linux is a good example of this, 20th anniversary this year ;)

I believe BSD-like licenses help the corporations to make their own
proprietary forks, it's OK if the way is to make those companies save
money and extending the ODF format. But that not benefits the FOSS
ecosystem at all, because Lotus Symphony or any future Oracle product
can only have the very good point of using ODF and not sure if that's
enough for selling the Free Software spirit (source code is finally
the best documentation at the end).

While maybe FSF can have their mistakes, GPL is the best contribution
to the history of Open Source.

But my opinions probably don't matter at all, because I'm just an
unknown person with broken English and not working on the big
business...

I just wanted to express my opinion here.

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Allen Pulsifer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Allen Pulsifer wrote:
>> If most or almost all of the LO contributors joined the Apache
>> OpenOffice project, if only to lend moral support and help heal the
>> rift, that would only be good for LO and the TdF.
>
>> Thorsten Behrens wrote:
>> Allen, how can you, with a straight face, ask people here to come over to
> a different project,
>> that likely noone here is really happy with, that was setup as a fait
> acompli, marketed as the
>> "natural upstream", removes rights from people's contributions, and is
> effectively competing
>> (by how the proposal reads)?
>
> Hello Thorsten,
>
> I do not agree with your conclusion that the Apache OpenOffice project is a
> competing project.  You simply chose to view it that way.  There are others,
> such as myself, who view it as a potential upstream project, where all of
> the contributions at the upstream project can be used by LibreOffce.  In
> that respect, it is similar to python, java, boost, hsqldb, libjpeg, curl,
> lpsolve, or anyone of hundreds of other project.  Are those competing
> projects?
>
> Second, I can recommend that LibreOffice contributors join Apache OpenOffice
> because I am firmly convinced that would be in the best interests of the
> LibreOffice project.  Amazingly, your response does not even argue
> otherwise.  Instead, your response focuses on the fact even if it were in
> the best interests of the LibreOffice project, for personal reasons you
> would never consider reconciling with it.  That to me is just astounding,
> that you are open and brazen about putting your personal issues ahead of the
> project.
>
> Here's what could have been: The world could have woken up one morning to an
> announcement by the TdF congratulating the Apache Foundation for joining the
> OpenOffice community, and stating that it was looking forward to working
> with Apache, IBM and all other interested parties to create the best
> possible open document technologies, and that the TdF would be incorporating
> those technologies into LibreOffice in order to make it the best end-user
> office suite possible.  The world could have then read in the press and
> trade magazines that virtually all of the LibreOffice developers had joined
> the Apache OpenOffice project, that the community had been reunited and that
> the future was bright.  The end users (remember the end users, the ones I
> talked about in my last post that you seem intent on ignoring?), heartened
> by the optimistic message and comforted by the reunification of the
> community, would have come back off the sidelines looking to benefit from
> the project, and many of them would have discovered LibreOffice.  The
> LibreOffice project would when be boosted by thousands of new users, and
> possibly could over time have developed a reputation as the best OpenOffice
> package.
>
> Instead, due to your personal issues, the world has heard a much different
> story: that you were dissed or slighted; that there is possibly some problem
> with the TdF or LibreOffice that people keep talking about, and no matter
> how much it is denied, the nagging feeling persists that it might be true;
> and that the LibreOffice community refuses to work with IBM or the Apache
> Foundation for personal reasons.
>
> It seems that your story about being dissed or slighted in one of your
> favorite stories, and you are determined to keep telling it for a long time.
> I'm quite certain that the end users (remember the end users, the ones I
> talked about in my last post that you seem intent on ignoring?) aren't
> interested in that story.
>
> With just a few simple actions on your part, you could have accomplished in
> a few minutes what would have taken you at least a year to accomplish with
> just programming (if it can even be accomplished that way at all).  That's
> right, in this world, marketing matters.  User perception matters.  The best
> mouse trap does not always win.  A few positives stories in the press can
> make or break a fledgling project.  You can spend years developing software,
> and then sabotage it in a minute with a poor marketing decision.  Such is
> that nature of business.
>
> So my all means, continue forward with your decision that your personal
> story is what really matters.  That is your prerogative.  Meanwhile, the
> LibreOffice project will never be what it could have been.  The opportunity
> that has been lost will never come back again.  That is the tragedy.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Allen
>
>
>
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Pedro Pedro
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by BRM
BRM wrote
Even the GPL does not provide that right. If a company wanted it could take a
GPL product, make whatever changes it wanted, and distribute it internally to
itself without ever contributing back to the community as a whole.
Likewise, it could also distribute that same project to its customers, making
the source available to them and them alone. The community will may never see
any changes from them; yet that is perfectly valid under all Open Source
licenses - even the GPL.

Nothing forces people to work with the community. No license can do that. So
please do yourself a favor and put that notion - the myth - aside.
So basically GPL is worth nothing because no one can force anybody to contribute back?

Is that an argument in favor of convincing developers to use the Apache license (because they aren't getting anything back anyway) or to simply stop contributing to Open Source projects?
Allen Pulsifer Allen Pulsifer
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

In reply to this post by Simon Brouwer
> Allen Pulsifer wrote:
> I do not agree with your conclusion that the Apache OpenOffice project
> is a competing project.  You simply chose to view it that way.

> Simon Phipps wrote:
> The main proposer of the project, Rob Weir of IBM, clearly stated his
intent for it to be
> a competing project - he even accused me of being potentially in breach of
anti-trust
> law on the Apache list[1], and has just re-asserted his view on his
blog[2]. So while many
> of us had hoped for a collaborative approach, there are powerful forces
who don't want that.

Hello Simon,

The donation of the OpenOffice code, trademark and domain were made to the
Apache Foundation, not to IBM or to Rob Weir.  Rob Weir is only one of many
people who are now members of the project at Apache.  As the board members
of the Apache Foundation made it clear, those members will have the primary
responsibility for determining the direction of the project, not IBM or Rob
Weir.  I happen to be one of those persons, and as a member, I have the same
voice as Rob Weir.  That means the same voice in determining what goes on
the openoffice.org website, how the openoffice.org trademark is used, and
whether the project direction is collaborative or competitive.  As an
experienced person in the open source world, I would think you know by now
that it is a lot easier to influence a project when have a seat at the table
and are working from the inside rather of the outside.  You could have also
been one of those persons with a seat at the table, and together, we would
have had twice the voice as Rob Weir.  Every other member of this community
could have also joined, and that would have been an overwhelming voice.
Again, a lost opportunity.

Allen



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Simon Phipps Simon Phipps
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice


On 16 Jun 2011, at 16:58, Allen Pulsifer wrote:

> You could have also
> been one of those persons with a seat at the table, and together, we would
> have had twice the voice as Rob Weir.

Excuse me? What are all the contributions I am making on that list? Chopped liver?

S.


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Allen Pulsifer Allen Pulsifer
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Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

> Allen Pulsifer wrote:
> As an experienced person in the open source world, I would think you know
by now that
> it is a lot easier to influence a project when have a seat at the table
and are working from
> the inside rather of the outside.  You could have also been one of those
persons with a seat
> at the table, and together, we would have had twice the voice as Rob Weir.

> Simon Phipps replied:
> Excuse me? What are all the contributions I am making on that list?
Chopped liver?

Pretty much, yes.  As a person who chose not to have a seat at the table,
you are serving up chopped liver for the people at the table to taste and
decide whether they want to eat it.  That's a fair analogy, I think, if it's
the one you want to use.

Allen



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