Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

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Steve Edmonds-2 Steve Edmonds-2
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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

Hi.
This is a good point to discuss and I have posted to
[hidden email] also.
I prefer separate windows because I can compare and proof
documents/sheets side by side and mouse focus in linux makes scrolling
without changing window focus possible. I would be disappointed if LO
went to tabs.

May be both options could be supported. The menu "File>Open" could be"
File>Open AS" tab or window. A bit like FF gives you the option.

steve

On 18/03/11 00:41, abdel ghaffar ettobi wrote:

> Dear Team LibreOffice
>
> Firstly I congratulate you for establishing your new company and for
> the tremendous efforts you make to improve Libreoffice.
> I am a Moroccan engineer who uses free software that makes a lot of
> time and openoffice, before the onset of LIbreOffice, was one of the
> solutions I have adopted to carry out my work at the office or at home.
>
> My suggestion is to have Libreoffice writer with tabs, for example I
> hope that when I open a new document I will not have a new window, but
> rather a new tab in the same window.
>
> I ask you to consider my request, because I see with this method there
> will be a good ergonomics and greater visibility.
>
> Cordially
> ETTOBI Abdelghaffar
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> LibreOffice mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
>  

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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

On 2011-03-17 4:06 PM, Steve Edmonds wrote:
> Hi.
> This is a good point to discuss and I have posted to
> [hidden email] also.
> I prefer separate windows because I can compare and proof
> documents/sheets side by side and mouse focus in linux makes scrolling
> without changing window focus possible. I would be disappointed if LO
> went to tabs.

Shouldn't be a problem as long as it worked similarly to Firefox...
meaning, it uses tabs but does not preclude the use of separate windows.
So, you should be able to drag a tab to a new window, or vice-versa...

Best of both worlds...

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Charles

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Roderick A. Anderson Roderick A. Anderson
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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

Charles Marcus wrote:

> On 2011-03-17 4:06 PM, Steve Edmonds wrote:
>> Hi.
>> This is a good point to discuss and I have posted to
>> [hidden email] also.
>> I prefer separate windows because I can compare and proof
>> documents/sheets side by side and mouse focus in linux makes scrolling
>> without changing window focus possible. I would be disappointed if LO
>> went to tabs.
>
> Shouldn't be a problem as long as it worked similarly to Firefox...
> meaning, it uses tabs but does not preclude the use of separate windows.
> So, you should be able to drag a tab to a new window, or vice-versa...
>
> Best of both worlds...

Until Unity and/or GONME3 if I understand their changes correctly.  Each
open application is full screen and almost no way to get around it
currently.

This is not intended to start a flame war or a new thread but a heads up
for those that like multiple windows visible at once.  I just finished a
couple of articles that lead me to believe they are taking a quite a few
steps towards glitz and away from real desktop functionality.

YMMV.


\\||/
Rod
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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

On 2011-03-18 10:18 AM, Roderick A. Anderson wrote:
> Until Unity and/or GONME3 if I understand their changes correctly.  Each
> open application is full screen and almost no way to get around it
> currently.

That is insane... I would not use any software or desktop environment
that imposed such ludicrous and unfriendly conditions.

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Steve Edmonds-2 Steve Edmonds-2
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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

In reply to this post by Roderick A. Anderson


On 19/03/11 03:18, Roderick A. Anderson wrote:

> Charles Marcus wrote:
>> On 2011-03-17 4:06 PM, Steve Edmonds wrote:
>>> Hi.
>>> This is a good point to discuss and I have posted to
>>> [hidden email] also.
>>> I prefer separate windows because I can compare and proof
>>> documents/sheets side by side and mouse focus in linux makes scrolling
>>> without changing window focus possible. I would be disappointed if LO
>>> went to tabs.
>>
>> Shouldn't be a problem as long as it worked similarly to Firefox...
>> meaning, it uses tabs but does not preclude the use of separate windows.
>> So, you should be able to drag a tab to a new window, or vice-versa...
>>
>> Best of both worlds...
>
> Until Unity and/or GONME3 if I understand their changes correctly.
> Each open application is full screen and almost no way to get around
> it currently.
>
> This is not intended to start a flame war or a new thread but a heads
> up for those that like multiple windows visible at once.  I just
> finished a couple of articles that lead me to believe they are taking
> a quite a few steps towards glitz and away from real desktop
> functionality.
>
Gnome and I have never got on, KDE for me, I have 8 windows visible now
and more lurking in the background just waiting. How will Gnome3 handle
multi head?. May be allow multiple windows split by head. Anyway, the
option of tabs would be good for Gnome and just generally for users who
run all applications maximised.
In which case why not add tabs for any other open LO instances (calc,
impress,..).

steve

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Jonathan Aquilina Jonathan Aquilina
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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

In reply to this post by Charles Marcus
On 3/18/11 1:32 PM, Charles Marcus wrote:

> On 2011-03-17 4:06 PM, Steve Edmonds wrote:
>> Hi.
>> This is a good point to discuss and I have posted to
>> [hidden email] also.
>> I prefer separate windows because I can compare and proof
>> documents/sheets side by side and mouse focus in linux makes scrolling
>> without changing window focus possible. I would be disappointed if LO
>> went to tabs.
> Shouldn't be a problem as long as it worked similarly to Firefox...
> meaning, it uses tabs but does not preclude the use of separate windows.
> So, you should be able to drag a tab to a new window, or vice-versa...
>
> Best of both worlds...
>
Charles

I am sure it can be done where the tab usage is done as a general setup
as alot of the major browsers today use tabs.


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Benjamin Horst Benjamin Horst
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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer


On Mar 19, 2011, at 4:14 AM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:

> On 3/18/11 1:32 PM, Charles Marcus wrote:
>> On 2011-03-17 4:06 PM, Steve Edmonds wrote:
>>> Hi.
>>> This is a good point to discuss and I have posted to
>>> [hidden email] also.
>>> I prefer separate windows because I can compare and proof
>>> documents/sheets side by side and mouse focus in linux makes scrolling
>>> without changing window focus possible. I would be disappointed if LO
>>> went to tabs.
>> Shouldn't be a problem as long as it worked similarly to Firefox...
>> meaning, it uses tabs but does not preclude the use of separate windows.
>> So, you should be able to drag a tab to a new window, or vice-versa...
>>
>> Best of both worlds...
>>
> Charles
>
> I am sure it can be done where the tab usage is done as a general setup as alot of the major browsers today use tabs.

>From an end-user perspective, I think tabs would be a big success for us. They are an obvious, immediate difference from our biggest competitor and something that a lot of users have asked for over the years. They're also easy to use, since web browsers have trained users what to expect.

I'd like to see LibreOffice implement tabs, too.

-Ben

Benjamin Horst
[hidden email]
646-464-2314 (Eastern)
www.solidoffice.com


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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

In reply to this post by Jonathan Aquilina
On 2011-03-19 4:14 AM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
> On 3/18/11 1:32 PM, Charles Marcus wrote:
>> On 2011-03-17 4:06 PM, Steve Edmonds wrote:
>>> I prefer separate windows because I can compare and proof
>>> documents/sheets side by side and mouse focus in linux makes
>>> scrolling without changing window focus possible. I would be
>>> disappointed if LO went to tabs.

>> Shouldn't be a problem as long as it worked similarly to
>> Firefox... meaning, it uses tabs but does not preclude the use of
>> separate windows. So, you should be able to drag a tab to a new
>> window, or vice-versa...
>>
>> Best of both worlds...

> I am sure it can be done where the tab usage is done as a general
> setup

What exactly do you mean by 'general setup'?

Like I said, this isn't rocket science. Adding the ability to have
multiple documents as tabs in one window would be great - as long as
there is a choice.

Meaning, I can have multiple windows if I want, and/or drag-n-drop a tab
out into its own window (and vice-versa)... an option to set a default
(open new docs in tabs, or as separate windows) would be best...

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Charles

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Jonathan Aquilina Jonathan Aquilina
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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

On 3/20/11 5:18 PM, Charles Marcus wrote:

> On 2011-03-19 4:14 AM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
>> On 3/18/11 1:32 PM, Charles Marcus wrote:
>>> On 2011-03-17 4:06 PM, Steve Edmonds wrote:
>>>> I prefer separate windows because I can compare and proof
>>>> documents/sheets side by side and mouse focus in linux makes
>>>> scrolling without changing window focus possible. I would be
>>>> disappointed if LO went to tabs.
>>> Shouldn't be a problem as long as it worked similarly to
>>> Firefox... meaning, it uses tabs but does not preclude the use of
>>> separate windows. So, you should be able to drag a tab to a new
>>> window, or vice-versa...
>>>
>>> Best of both worlds...
>> I am sure it can be done where the tab usage is done as a general
>> setup
> What exactly do you mean by 'general setup'?
>
> Like I said, this isn't rocket science. Adding the ability to have
> multiple documents as tabs in one window would be great - as long as
> there is a choice.
>
> Meaning, I can have multiple windows if I want, and/or drag-n-drop a tab
> out into its own window (and vice-versa)... an option to set a default
> (open new docs in tabs, or as separate windows) would be best...
>
Thats what I was tryign to get at allow it to be a customizable option
that can be turned on or off.

Apologies for it not being clear.


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Zaphod Feeblejocks Zaphod Feeblejocks
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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

In reply to this post by Benjamin Horst
> > Charles
> >
> > I am sure it can be done where the tab usage is done as a general setup as alot of the major browsers today use tabs.
>
> >From an end-user perspective, I think tabs would be a big success for
> us. They are an obvious, immediate difference from our biggest
> competitor and something that a lot of users have asked for over the
> years. They're also easy to use, since web browsers have trained users
> what to expect.

Good idea - clears space on the taskbar, plus - as you say - browsers have got people used to tabs.  Maybe
people even expect tabs.

ZF--
Zaphod



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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

In reply to this post by Jonathan Aquilina
On 2011-03-20 12:34 PM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
> On 3/20/11 5:18 PM, Charles Marcus wrote:
>> Adding the ability to have multiple documents as tabs in one window
>> would be great - as long as there is a choice.
>>
>> Meaning, I can have multiple windows if I want, and/or drag-n-drop a tab
>> out into its own window (and vice-versa)... an option to set a default
>> (open new docs in tabs, or as separate windows) would be best...

> Thats what I was tryign to get at allow it to be a customizable option
> that can be turned on or off.
>
> Apologies for it not being clear.

Still not really clear though...

Just so I'm clear, the option I mentioned would only be for the
*default* behavior (ie, when opening a new document, does it get opened
into an existing window as a new tab, or as a separate window).

You should still be able to move a tab to a separate window or
vice-versa on the fly whenever you want, without having to change an
option, just like you can with Firefox (and most other browsers now).

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Charles

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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

On 3/20/11 6:38 PM, Charles Marcus wrote:

> On 2011-03-20 12:34 PM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
>> On 3/20/11 5:18 PM, Charles Marcus wrote:
>>> Adding the ability to have multiple documents as tabs in one window
>>> would be great - as long as there is a choice.
>>>
>>> Meaning, I can have multiple windows if I want, and/or drag-n-drop a tab
>>> out into its own window (and vice-versa)... an option to set a default
>>> (open new docs in tabs, or as separate windows) would be best...
>> Thats what I was tryign to get at allow it to be a customizable option
>> that can be turned on or off.
>>
>> Apologies for it not being clear.
> Still not really clear though...
>
> Just so I'm clear, the option I mentioned would only be for the
> *default* behavior (ie, when opening a new document, does it get opened
> into an existing window as a new tab, or as a separate window).
>
> You should still be able to move a tab to a separate window or
> vice-versa on the fly whenever you want, without having to change an
> option, just like you can with Firefox (and most other browsers now).
>
Ahhh ok. the lightbulb just turned on. I am plus 1 for this. it would be
great to try and consolidate multiple windows into one if the user so
desires.

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steveedmonds steveedmonds
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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

In reply to this post by Charles Marcus
On 21/03/11 6:38 AM, Charles Marcus wrote:

> On 2011-03-20 12:34 PM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
>> On 3/20/11 5:18 PM, Charles Marcus wrote:
>>> Adding the ability to have multiple documents as tabs in one window
>>> would be great - as long as there is a choice.
>>>
>>> Meaning, I can have multiple windows if I want, and/or drag-n-drop a tab
>>> out into its own window (and vice-versa)... an option to set a default
>>> (open new docs in tabs, or as separate windows) would be best...
>> Thats what I was tryign to get at allow it to be a customizable option
>> that can be turned on or off.
>>
>> Apologies for it not being clear.
> Still not really clear though...
>
> Just so I'm clear, the option I mentioned would only be for the
> *default* behavior (ie, when opening a new document, does it get opened
> into an existing window as a new tab, or as a separate window).
>
> You should still be able to move a tab to a separate window or
> vice-versa on the fly whenever you want, without having to change an
> option, just like you can with Firefox (and most other browsers now).
>
Would work for me, which bit of real estate would you take up with the tabs?
I would hope that if I opted to open in a new window I would not loose
any real estate.

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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

On 2011-03-20 3:05 PM, Steve Edmonds wrote:
> Would work for me, which bit of real estate would you take up with the
> tabs?
> I would hope that if I opted to open in a new window I would not loose
> any real estate.

I'd say they should work - again - similar to how Firefox works...

An option to hide the tab bar when there is only one tab in use...

I'd also prefer the choice of horizontal or vertical, because I'd prefer
vertical (on the left side, like I do now with Firefox). Horizontal
screen real estate is much more precious that vertical, especially on a
smaller screen...

Obviously, it is impossible (as far as I can see) to add tabs without
losing *some* screen real estate...

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Charles

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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer



On 21/03/11 8:23 AM, Charles Marcus wrote:

> On 2011-03-20 3:05 PM, Steve Edmonds wrote:
>> Would work for me, which bit of real estate would you take up with the
>> tabs?
>> I would hope that if I opted to open in a new window I would not loose
>> any real estate.
> I'd say they should work - again - similar to how Firefox works...
>
> An option to hide the tab bar when there is only one tab in use...
>
> I'd also prefer the choice of horizontal or vertical, because I'd prefer
> vertical (on the left side, like I do now with Firefox). Horizontal
> screen real estate is much more precious that vertical, especially on a
> smaller screen...
>
> Obviously, it is impossible (as far as I can see) to add tabs without
> losing *some* screen real estate...
>
Unless you had popup tabs on roll over.

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Jonathan Aquilina Jonathan Aquilina
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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

In reply to this post by steveedmonds
Charles in last email you mentioned vertical, why not give the user the
option to have it vertical or horizontal.

They can drag it and it snaps in vertically or horizontally?

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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

In reply to this post by steveedmonds
Le 2011-03-20 15:05, Steve Edmonds a écrit :

> On 21/03/11 6:38 AM, Charles Marcus wrote:
>>> On 3/20/11 5:18 PM, Charles Marcus wrote:
>>>> Adding the ability to have multiple documents as tabs in one window
>>>> would be great - as long as there is a choice.
>>>>
>>>> Meaning, I can have multiple windows if I want, and/or drag-n-drop
>>>> a tab
>>>> out into its own window (and vice-versa)... an option to set a default
>>>> (open new docs in tabs, or as separate windows) would be best......
>>
>> Still not really clear though...
>>
>> Just so I'm clear, the option I mentioned would only be for the
>> *default* behavior (ie, when opening a new document, does it get opened
>> into an existing window as a new tab, or as a separate window).
>>
>> You should still be able to move a tab to a separate window or
>> vice-versa on the fly whenever you want, without having to change an
>> option, just like you can with Firefox (and most other browsers now).
>>
> Would work for me, which bit of real estate would you take up with the
> tabs?
> I would hope that if I opted to open in a new window I would not loose
> any real estate.
>

Obviously having a choice is a good thing, but I would prefer to keep
the current form as default.

Besides that, I would like to point out that contrary to what had been
said, people are NOT trained to use tabs.
On one hand, all browsers starting with Firefox 3, then Google and
Internet Explorer have tabs. It is now their default behaviour to open
new tabs rather than new windows most of the time, and I am one of those
who prefer tabs to windows when it comes to the browser.

Adobe CS4 also uses tabs, with all documents opened into a single
application window. For instance, all InDesign documents are in a single
window with one tab per document.

On the other hand, Microsoft had introduced us to tabs. Office 97 had
one single window per application. I think Office 2000 offered a choice.
Office 2003 was very inconsistent, with one window per document in Word
and one single window for all Excel documents. And Powerpoint was yet a
bit different, showing only one document window at a time. In other
words, it was impossible to show two documents side by side. Office 2010
(and I think 2007 too) uses the multiple document interface throughout
the platform: i.e. it's one window per document in Word, Excel and
Powerpoint. So in that regard, the current versions of Microsoft Office
use a system similar to what exists with the current version of LibreOffice.

Overall, for Office-type documents, I generally prefer the current
system over tabs: I don't open too many tabs/windows at once, I
generally want wide enough windows for each document I want to see, and
most importantly, I use a dual-monitor setup at work and those two
monitors aren't of the same era and therefore don't have exactly the
same resolution. In other words, I have one document (sometimes more) on
each monitor and it's not convenient to have a long menubar spread over
two monitors.


Generally speaking, there are pros and cons with tabs vs one window per
document.

One window per document:
– menu bar and toolbars are closer, because they appear within each document
– no space is lost for a tab bar
– window may be placed anywhere one wants on the monitor... or on a
second monitor
– allows one to arrange three windows of different size (for example),
with two LibreOffice windows and a smaller window for the browser or
calculator. In a setting with a large window and documents in tabs, it
is impossible to show the calculator through the unused grey space of
the application window.

One window per application and documents in tabs:
– some space is lost for a tab bar
– the overall window is wider, allowing one to have all toolbars in a
single line; overall each tool appears only once (rather than once per
document window), so toolbars and menus take less space
– if the window is huge, menus and individual toolbar items could be far
away.
– moving the application window moves all documents at once; sometimes
it's useful.


So as I said, I prefer the current way of doing things. That being said,
I would improve a few points to enhance the user experience:

– In toolbars, buttons should be a bit smaller. Even the small buttons
are a tiny bit wider and a few pixels higher than those in Microsoft
Office 2003. The symbols on buttons are about the same size, but there
is some space taken for actual buttons. Maybe we could cut a few pixels
there, allowing people to keep more of their screen for useful things.
– Floating toolbars and dialogue boxes should be positioned relative to
the window. One of the problems of LibreOffice is that if I place a
dialogue box just to the left of my current window, LibreOffice will
remember its absolute position rather than the relative one. So when I
call the same dialogue box from another document, it may well hide the
text... or be so far away that I'll desperately look for it.

Finally, one function that could be added is a quick alignment of two
windows side by side and a way to scroll both of them at once. Microsoft
has a bit of that in it's "compare" function, except it doesn't really
work because it's too complex to synchronize and de-synchronize both
windows.

--

Michel Gagnon – [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
Montréal (Québec, Canada) – mgagnon.net <http://mgagnon.net>


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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

In reply to this post by steveedmonds
On 2011-03-20 3:42 PM, Steve Edmonds wrote:
> On 21/03/11 8:23 AM, Charles Marcus wrote:
>> Obviously, it is impossible (as far as I can see) to add tabs without
>> losing *some* screen real estate...

> Unless you had popup tabs on roll over.

True... especially if the tab bar popped up on *top* of existing screen
real estate, instead of forcing everything down...

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Charles

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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

In reply to this post by Jonathan Aquilina
On 2011-03-20 3:49 PM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
> Charles in last email you mentioned vertical, why not give the user the
> option to have it vertical or horizontal.
>
> They can drag it and it snaps in vertically or horizontally?

Ummm... that's exactly what I suggested? I said *I* preferred it
vertical, but that it should be a choice...

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Re: [Libreoffice] suggestion to improve libreoffice writer

In reply to this post by Charles Marcus
On 20/03/11 16:18, Charles Marcus wrote:
> <snip>
> Adding the ability to have multiple documents as tabs in one window would be great - as long as
> there is a choice.
>    

+1

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