Re: [MariaDB Announce] MariaDB Galera Cluster 10.0.12 GA and MariaDB 10.1.0 Alpha now available

[TomD]

Hi :)
Just for those people interested in using MariaDb perhaps to replace MySql
as a back-end for Base.  As others have pointed out there are many possible
back-ends, such as Postgresql.

Interesting to see the MariaDb people include links to their documentation
and recent webinars and stuff.  I thought our announcements were good but
haven't scrolled through ours for a while either.  So, maybe ours are
better.
Regards from
Tom :)




On 30 June 2014 12:29, MariaDB Announce List <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The MariaDB project is pleased to announce the immediate availability
> of:
> - MariaDB Galera Cluster 10.0.12 GA
> - MariaDB 10.1.0 Alpha
>
> MariaDB Galera Cluster 10.0.12 is a Stable (GA) release.
>
> MariaDB 10.1.0 is the first release of MariaDB 10.1. It's an alpha release.
>
> See the Release Notes and Changelogs for details.
>
> - - Links  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> MariaDB Galera Cluster 10.0.12 GA
>  - Release Notes:
> https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb-galera-cluster-10012-release-notes/
>  - Changelog:
> https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb-galera-cluster-10012-changelog/
>  - Downloads: https://downloads.mariadb.org/mariadb-galera/10.0.12/
>
> MariaDB Galera Cluster 10.1.0 Alpha
>  - Release Notes: https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb-1010-release-notes/
>  - Changelog: https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb-1010-changelog/
>  - Downloads: https://downloads.mariadb.org/mariadb/10.1.0/
>
>  APT and YUM Repository Configuration Generator:
>   - https://downloads.mariadb.org/mariadb/repositories/
>
>
> - - MariaDB Webinars - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> SkySQL has held several MariaDB-focused Webinars recently which are
> available on an on-demand basis at:
>
>  - http://www.skysql.com/why-skysql/webinars/
>
> They are also planning several more MariaDB-focused webinars that will
> be held over the comming months. Details available at the above link.
>
>
> - - MariaDB Books  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> The recently published MariaDB Cookbook contains nearly 100 recipes
> covering a variety of features in MariaDB 10.0.
>  - http://www.packtpub.com/exclusive-and-unique-features-of-mariadb/book
>
> Another book, Getting Started with MariaDB is a how-to guide for
> beginners to help them get up to speed quickly with MariaDB. No prior
> database experience required.
>  - http://www.packtpub.com/getting-started-with-mariadb/book
>
>
> - - User Feedback plugin - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> MariaDB includes a User Feedback plugin. This plugin is disabled by
> default. If enabled, it submits basic, completely anonymous MariaDB
> usage information. This information is used by the developers to track
> trends in MariaDB usage to better guide development efforts.
>
> If you would like to help make MariaDB better, please add
> "feedback=ON" to your my.cnf or my.ini file!
>
> See http://mariadb.com/kb/en/user-feedback-plugin for more
> information.
>
>
> - - Quality - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> The project always strives for quality, but in reality, nothing is
> perfect. Please take time to report any issues you encounter at:
>
>  - http://mariadb.org/jira
>
>
> - - Support MariaDB - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> If you would like to contribute to the MariaDB Foundation, please see
> the "contributing" and "donations" pages. We also have merchandise
> available in a cafepress store. All proceeds go to support the MariaDB
> Foundation.
>
>  - https://mariadb.com/kb/en/contributing
>
>  - https://mariadb.org/en/donate/
>
>  - http://www.cafepress.com/mariadb
>
>
> We hope you enjoy MariaDB!
> _______________________________________________
> announce mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.askmonty.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/announce
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[NoOp]

On 07/03/2014 12:55 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

> Hi :)
> Just for those people interested in using MariaDb perhaps to replace MySql
> as a back-end for Base.  As others have pointed out there are many possible
> back-ends, such as Postgresql.
>
> Interesting to see the MariaDb people include links to their documentation
> and recent webinars and stuff.  I thought our announcements were good but
> haven't scrolled through ours for a while either.  So, maybe ours are
> better.
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>

...

Perhaps you could explain again why you continue to spam MariaDB
announcements to this list?




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[TomD]

Hi :)
There are a few reasons;
*  Base needs an external back-end but most new users wont be aware of that
*  MariaDb was set-up for much the same reasons as LibreOffice and could be
considered a sister-project worthy of support
*  Some distros have already moved from MySql to MariaDb

This 'spam' is less than 1/month and there have been people on this list
who have appreciated getting them.

I really wish there was someone on the Postgresql mailing list who would
let us know each time they have a stable or LTS or such-like release.
Would also be nice to hear from various others such as the HsqlDb people.
Regards from
Tom :)






On 4 July 2014 04:26, NoOp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 07/03/2014 12:55 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
> > Hi :)
> > Just for those people interested in using MariaDb perhaps to replace
> MySql
> > as a back-end for Base.  As others have pointed out there are many
> possible
> > back-ends, such as Postgresql.
> >
> > Interesting to see the MariaDb people include links to their
> documentation
> > and recent webinars and stuff.  I thought our announcements were good but
> > haven't scrolled through ours for a while either.  So, maybe ours are
> > better.
> > Regards from
> > Tom :)
> >
> ...
>
> Perhaps you could explain again why you continue to spam MariaDB
> announcements to this list?
>
>
>
>
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[Jim Seymour]

On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 08:37:46 +0100
Tom Davies <[hidden email]> wrote:

[snip]
> *  Some distros have already moved from MySql to MariaDb
[snip]

How does a distro "move from" one dbms to another?  Admittedly: I
don't keep track of all the latest & greatest stuff on the FOSS world
(I presume MariaDb is FOSS?), but I'd never heard of MariaDb before.
Furthermore: Considering how even PostgreSQL, which has, technically
speaking, been around *longer* than MySQL, can gain little traction
as a backend dbms for many projects, I would think it would be
suicide for any distro to try to "move from" MySQL to such a thing.

> I really wish there was someone on the Postgresql mailing list who
> would let us know each time they have a stable or LTS or such-like
> release.

I'm not certain what would be the point to that.  Besides: If people
want to know: They can sign up to the PostgreSQL "Announcements"
mailing list.  (*All* PostgreSQL branches are "LTS," btw.  Generally
they all have about a five-year lifespan.)

Regards,
Jim
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[Vitorio Delage]

Le 4 juil. 2014 à 13:16, Jim Seymour <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> [snip]
>> *  Some distros have already moved from MySql to MariaDb
> [snip]
>
> How does a distro "move from" one dbms to another?  Admittedly: I
> don't keep track of all the latest & greatest stuff on the FOSS world
> (I presume MariaDb is FOSS?), but I'd never heard of MariaDb before.
> Furthermore: Considering how even PostgreSQL, which has, technically
> speaking, been around *longer* than MySQL, can gain little traction
> as a backend dbms for many projects, I would think it would be
> suicide for any distro to try to "move from" MySQL to such a thing.

Because MariaDB is a fork, so very compatible with MySQL (at least in the first versions) in the same way Libreoffice is very similar to Apache OpenOffice.
At the moment of the fork, it's very easy to go one way instead of the other one. A MySQL to PostgreSQL transition is not as simple.

Best regards,

Vitorio
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[Tanstaafl]

On 7/4/2014 7:45 AM, Vitorio Delage wrote:
> Because MariaDB is a fork, so very compatible with MySQL (at least in the first versions)

Mariadb has been around for a long time, and is still billed as a
drop-in replacement for mysql, I don't think that is supposed to be
changing any time soon.

In gentoo, it was as simple as emerge -c mysql and emerge mariadb. I put
it off for a long time out of fear, and it was pretty much a non-event.

As for how a distro moves from one dbms to another, this question
displays ignorance about how distro s work.

Pretty much all distros have 'default' system packages, including DB's.
distros who have always used mysql as their default have been switching
to mariadb as the new default. Doesn't mean  you can choose something
else (mysql, or postgresql, etc)...

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[TomD]

Hi :)
MariaDb's stated aims were to remain a "drop in replacement" for MySql.
It's not easy!

Distros, especially gateway ones (for people new to Gnu&Linux) often have a
whole load of apps already installed.  It's usually fairly easy to install
others but many people are likely to stick with the default apps unless
they find a good reason to change.

So, when pretty much all distros swapped-out OpenOffice and started having
LibreOffice as their default office suite they effectively moved from
OpenOffice to LibreOffice.  Much the same is happening with MariaDb.

Regards from
Tom :)



On 4 July 2014 13:07, Tanstaafl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/4/2014 7:45 AM, Vitorio Delage wrote:
>
>> Because MariaDB is a fork, so very compatible with MySQL (at least in the
>> first versions)
>>
>
> Mariadb has been around for a long time, and is still billed as a drop-in
> replacement for mysql, I don't think that is supposed to be changing any
> time soon.
>
> In gentoo, it was as simple as emerge -c mysql and emerge mariadb. I put
> it off for a long time out of fear, and it was pretty much a non-event.
>
> As for how a distro moves from one dbms to another, this question displays
> ignorance about how distro s work.
>
> Pretty much all distros have 'default' system packages, including DB's.
> distros who have always used mysql as their default have been switching to
> mariadb as the new default. Doesn't mean  you can choose something else
> (mysql, or postgresql, etc)...
>
>
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[Jay Lozier]

On 07/04/2014 03:37 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

> Hi :)
> There are a few reasons;
> *  Base needs an external back-end but most new users wont be aware of that
> *  MariaDb was set-up for much the same reasons as LibreOffice and could be
> considered a sister-project worthy of support
> *  Some distros have already moved from MySql to MariaDb
>
> This 'spam' is less than 1/month and there have been people on this list
> who have appreciated getting them.
>
> I really wish there was someone on the Postgresql mailing list who would
> let us know each time they have a stable or LTS or such-like release.
> Would also be nice to hear from various others such as the HsqlDb people.
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>

Many database gurus on this list recommend using a different backend
such as MariaDB/MySQL or Postgresql instead of the default backend
supplied with LO.

>
>
>
> On 4 July 2014 04:26, NoOp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 07/03/2014 12:55 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
>>> Hi :)
>>> Just for those people interested in using MariaDb perhaps to replace
>> MySql
>>> as a back-end for Base.  As others have pointed out there are many
>> possible
>>> back-ends, such as Postgresql.
>>>
>>> Interesting to see the MariaDb people include links to their
>> documentation
>>> and recent webinars and stuff.  I thought our announcements were good but
>>> haven't scrolled through ours for a while either.  So, maybe ours are
>>> better.
>>> Regards from
>>> Tom :)
>>>
>> ...
>>
>> Perhaps you could explain again why you continue to spam MariaDB
>> announcements to this list?
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>

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[Mark Stanton]

And, to give an example, Fedora has moved from distributing MySQL as
default to MariaDb.

Mark Stanton



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[NoOp]

On 07/04/2014 12:37 AM, Tom Davies wrote:
> Hi :)
> There are a few reasons;
> *  Base needs an external back-end but most new users wont be aware of that

Interesting. I never knew that Base "needs an external back-end"...
Perhaps you can get the documentation folks to add that to the help
files and the Base docs:
<https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications#LibreOffice_Base_Handbook>

Chapter 2 page 22:
"New database using the internal HSQL engine
If a database with multiple users is not planned, or the user wishes to
gain some initial experience with a database, the internal database
engine will suffice. It is possible at some later stage to
transfer the database to an external HSQLDB environment, where multiple
users can have concurrent access to the database on the HSQLDB server.
This is described in the Appendix to this Handbook."

> *  MariaDb was set-up for much the same reasons as LibreOffice and could be
> considered a sister-project worthy of support

So? There are many projects that are forks of their base code. If they
are indeed a "sister-project" then we should see regular posts and
contributions by MariaDB folks related to LO.

<https://mariadb.com/search/node/libreoffice>
"Your search yielded no results"

> *  Some distros have already moved from MySql to MariaDb

OK, how about we auto connect all of the distro announcements to this
list as well? Would it be appropriate to post the ZDNet "Shuttleworth
says Ubuntu is sticking with MySQL"?

>
> This 'spam' is less than 1/month and there have been people on this list
> who have appreciated getting them.

Then perhaps you could instead point them to:
announce mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.askmonty.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/announce

I've certainly nothing against MariaDB, and yes I realise the benefits
of connecting to an external database such as MariaDB.
 Had the announcement has something, anything, in it related to
LibreOffice (e.g. information regarding  then I would have appreciated
the information. However I do think that sending MariaDB announcements,
particularly those that have nothing to do with LibreOffice, to this
list is spam.

Note: Posting the "MySQL for Excel 1.3.1 RC has been released" (July 2)
http://lists.mysql.com/announce/924 might have been more beneficial IMO.
At least that relates to something that may directly affect LO.

...


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[Owen Genat]

NoOp wrote

On 07/04/2014 12:37 AM, Tom Davies wrote:
> Hi :)
> There are a few reasons;
> *  Base needs an external back-end but most new users wont be aware of that

Interesting. I never knew that Base "needs an external back-end"...
Perhaps you can get the documentation folks to add that to the help
files and the Base docs

This will be unlikely to happen in the short term as the so-called "split" configuration is considered to be for experts only. The idea behind the "embedded" configuration (i.e., a database back-end inside an ODF container) was developed to mask some of the database back-end detail and for portability. While simpler, the embedded configuration is reported as suffering greater data loss / corruption issues, due to the nature of the packaging.

There are numerous threads over on the Apache OO forum about problems with the embedded configuration. There is also a lengthy and detailed discussion about Base / ODF container portability that provides several links to the mentioned Apache OO forum threads. Summary: In order for a "split" configuration to become more widespread it would be ideal for some sort of pack-n-go facility to be developed for Base to allow greater portability of data in a manner more in keeping with office documents.

Best wishes, Owen.

[Dale Erwin-2]

On 7/4/2014 11:40 PM, Owen Genat wrote:

> NoOp wrote
>> On 07/04/2014 12:37 AM, Tom Davies wrote:
>>> Hi :)
>>> There are a few reasons;
>>> *  Base needs an external back-end but most new users wont be aware of
>>> that
>> Interesting. I never knew that Base "needs an external back-end"...
>> Perhaps you can get the documentation folks to add that to the help
>> files and the Base docs
> This will be unlikely to happen in the short term as the so-called "split"
> configuration is considered to be for experts only. The idea behind the
> "embedded" configuration (i.e., a database back-end inside an ODF container)
> was developed to mask some of the database back-end detail and for
> portability. While simpler, the embedded configuration is reported as
> suffering greater data loss / corruption issues, due to the nature of the
> packaging.
>
> There are numerous threads over on the Apache OO forum about problems with
> the embedded configuration. There is also a lengthy and detailed discussion
> about  Base / ODF container portability
> <http://en.libreofficeforum.org/node/7876>   that provides several links to
> the mentioned Apache OO forum threads. Summary: In order for a "split"
> configuration to become more widespread it would be ideal for some sort of
> pack-n-go facility to be developed for Base to allow greater portability of
> data in a manner more in keeping with office documents.

I thought Base had HSQLDB built into it, but COULD use a different back
end if desired.  The only drawback I can see to using HSQLDB is that it
needs to be accessed from a Java environment.  I have used standalone
HSQLDB in Java apps and found it to be very robust and surprisingly fast
in light of the fact that Java is an interpreted language.

Dale Erwin

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[TomD]

Hi :)
No, the problem is much larger, as Owen states.

Data-loss is a very serious issue, especially in a database!!

Of course documentation tries to keep things as simple as possible!
Learning just enough about databases in order to create one is FAR more
difficult than learning just enough to use Writer/Word or Calc/Excel.  It
is POSSIBLE to create a database using the internal back-end and from there
the tables can be moved into a back-end if you are not happy about losing
data.


The version of HsqlDb that is used as a back-end right now is NOT a fair
representation of HsqlDb itself.  The one in the back-end doesn't update
and was heavily tweaked.  It is NOT just because it's dependant  on Java.

People who get the proper HsqlDb from it's own project's website and use it
as an external back-end tend to report seeing a vast improvement in quality
and none of the problems the internal one has.

When all the tweaks were put in place it was probably due to pressure to
force Base to act in a way it wasn't originally designed to be used in
order to be as limited as MS Access.


LO devs are working at replacing the in-built one with a more pure version
of something else.  Presumably this time making it easier to upgrade.
Regards from
Tom :)




On 5 July 2014 18:06, Dale Erwin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/4/2014 11:40 PM, Owen Genat wrote:
>
>> NoOp wrote
>>
>>> On 07/04/2014 12:37 AM, Tom Davies wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi :)
>>>> There are a few reasons;
>>>> *  Base needs an external back-end but most new users wont be aware of
>>>> that
>>>>
>>> Interesting. I never knew that Base "needs an external back-end"...
>>> Perhaps you can get the documentation folks to add that to the help
>>> files and the Base docs
>>>
>> This will be unlikely to happen in the short term as the so-called "split"
>> configuration is considered to be for experts only. The idea behind the
>> "embedded" configuration (i.e., a database back-end inside an ODF
>> container)
>> was developed to mask some of the database back-end detail and for
>> portability. While simpler, the embedded configuration is reported as
>> suffering greater data loss / corruption issues, due to the nature of the
>> packaging.
>>
>> There are numerous threads over on the Apache OO forum about problems with
>> the embedded configuration. There is also a lengthy and detailed
>> discussion
>> about  Base / ODF container portability
>> <http://en.libreofficeforum.org/node/7876>   that provides several links
>> to
>> the mentioned Apache OO forum threads. Summary: In order for a "split"
>> configuration to become more widespread it would be ideal for some sort of
>> pack-n-go facility to be developed for Base to allow greater portability
>> of
>> data in a manner more in keeping with office documents.
>>
>
> I thought Base had HSQLDB built into it, but COULD use a different back
> end if desired.  The only drawback I can see to using HSQLDB is that it
> needs to be accessed from a Java environment.  I have used standalone
> HSQLDB in Java apps and found it to be very robust and surprisingly fast in
> light of the fact that Java is an interpreted language.
>
> Dale Erwin
>
>
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[Charles-H. Schulz]

HSQLDB has been replaced by Firebird...

Best,

Charles.

Le Sat, 5 Jul 2014 19:14:02 +0100,
Tom Davies <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Hi :)
> No, the problem is much larger, as Owen states.
>
> Data-loss is a very serious issue, especially in a database!!
>
> Of course documentation tries to keep things as simple as possible!
> Learning just enough about databases in order to create one is FAR
> more difficult than learning just enough to use Writer/Word or
> Calc/Excel.  It is POSSIBLE to create a database using the internal
> back-end and from there the tables can be moved into a back-end if
> you are not happy about losing data.
>
>
> The version of HsqlDb that is used as a back-end right now is NOT a
> fair representation of HsqlDb itself.  The one in the back-end
> doesn't update and was heavily tweaked.  It is NOT just because it's
> dependant  on Java.
>
> People who get the proper HsqlDb from it's own project's website and
> use it as an external back-end tend to report seeing a vast
> improvement in quality and none of the problems the internal one has.
>
> When all the tweaks were put in place it was probably due to pressure
> to force Base to act in a way it wasn't originally designed to be
> used in order to be as limited as MS Access.
>
>
> LO devs are working at replacing the in-built one with a more pure
> version of something else.  Presumably this time making it easier to
> upgrade. Regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
>
>
> On 5 July 2014 18:06, Dale Erwin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 7/4/2014 11:40 PM, Owen Genat wrote:
> >
> >> NoOp wrote
> >>
> >>> On 07/04/2014 12:37 AM, Tom Davies wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi :)
> >>>> There are a few reasons;
> >>>> *  Base needs an external back-end but most new users wont be
> >>>> aware of that
> >>>>
> >>> Interesting. I never knew that Base "needs an external
> >>> back-end"... Perhaps you can get the documentation folks to add
> >>> that to the help files and the Base docs
> >>>
> >> This will be unlikely to happen in the short term as the so-called
> >> "split" configuration is considered to be for experts only. The
> >> idea behind the "embedded" configuration (i.e., a database
> >> back-end inside an ODF container)
> >> was developed to mask some of the database back-end detail and for
> >> portability. While simpler, the embedded configuration is reported
> >> as suffering greater data loss / corruption issues, due to the
> >> nature of the packaging.
> >>
> >> There are numerous threads over on the Apache OO forum about
> >> problems with the embedded configuration. There is also a lengthy
> >> and detailed discussion
> >> about  Base / ODF container portability
> >> <http://en.libreofficeforum.org/node/7876>   that provides several
> >> links to
> >> the mentioned Apache OO forum threads. Summary: In order for a
> >> "split" configuration to become more widespread it would be ideal
> >> for some sort of pack-n-go facility to be developed for Base to
> >> allow greater portability of
> >> data in a manner more in keeping with office documents.
> >>
> >
> > I thought Base had HSQLDB built into it, but COULD use a different
> > back end if desired.  The only drawback I can see to using HSQLDB
> > is that it needs to be accessed from a Java environment.  I have
> > used standalone HSQLDB in Java apps and found it to be very robust
> > and surprisingly fast in light of the fact that Java is an
> > interpreted language.
> >
> > Dale Erwin
> >
> >
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> >
>

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[Girvin Herr-2]

On 07/04/2014 04:16 AM, Jim Seymour wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 08:37:46 +0100
> Tom Davies <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>> *  Some distros have already moved from MySql to MariaDb
> [snip]
>
> How does a distro "move from" one dbms to another?  Admittedly: I
> don't keep track of all the latest & greatest stuff on the FOSS world
> (I presume MariaDb is FOSS?), but I'd never heard of MariaDb before.
> Furthermore: Considering how even PostgreSQL, which has, technically
> speaking, been around *longer* than MySQL, can gain little traction
> as a backend dbms for many projects, I would think it would be
> suicide for any distro to try to "move from" MySQL to such a thing.
>

snip

Moving from MySQL to Mariadb is very easy.  I use Slackware Linux and
Slackware, with the 14.1 distribution, moved from MySQL to Mariadb.  My
research on Mariadb has shown me that even the MySQL apps, such as
mysql_install_db are fully supported in Mariadb and retain the app name
so scripts should run without change.  So far, I have not encountered
any significant differences between the interfaces of either back-end.  
I might add that the compatability is such that even the Oracle
mysql-connector-java driver will interface with Mariadb as-is.

Years ago when I was researching the DBMS market to decide which one I
wanted to use, at that time Postgresql had some limitations which MySQL
did not.  I no longer remember what they were, but it seemed that MySQL
was more mature and had more of the features that I wanted, so I
committed to MySQL.  MySQL has worked for me and that is what counts.  
Postgresql may now have equivalent or better features, but I have made
my commitment and do not want to spend the energy and resources required
to switch to Postgresql.  I may not be alone in that, so that may be why
you see no "traction" for Postgresql.

"Suicide"?  No.  Slackware does not do such things haphazardly. They
only make such decisions if the software is proven to work and only
after much testing.  Slackware has been known to drop packages that have
refused to fix bugs in a reasonable time, especially security bugs.  I
suspect Oracle's MySQL fits that category.

HTH.
Girvin Herr


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[Alex Thurgood]

Le 05/07/2014 21:55, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
> HSQLDB has been replaced by Firebird...
>

No it hasn't, it is still considered, AFAIK, and thankfully so,
experimental, and very much a "use at your own risk" option that needs
to be specifically activated by the user, or did I miss something in the
4.3 announcement and did "we" decide to make Firebird generally
available ? If so, that was a big mistake :

- missing functionality compared to the embedded hsqldb ;
- no migration path for existing hsqldb ODB files ;
- still fairly unstable on anything other than Linux.



Alex


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