Re: New name

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jonathon jonathon
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Re: New name

On 10/02/2010 08:43 PM, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:

> Or adding some small pronunciation howto to the FAQ? :o))

+1

If possible, link the pronunciation to an audio file.
You'll still end up with a range of pronunciations, but they should all
be "approximately" the same. ( 'liβɾe ôfs / libʀ ô
fs :  Alter depending
upon the speaker's first language.)

jonathon
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yorick yorick
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Re: New name

On Sunday 03 Oct 2010 02:18:15 Charles-H. Schulz wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I'm afraid that although we're still waiting for Oracle's position on the
> trademark, we already have had a full competition and vote on the name.
> And we also found out, that names are never a very consensual thing. So
> we'll stick to this one, unless Oracle agrees to give the trademark...
>
> Best,
>
> Charles.
>
 We did??

I subscribe to 20 odd OOo Maillists and I saw no mention of a competition or a
vote.  So we had a secret Competition and a secret vote around a table over a
beer at the Conf?

Confused
GL


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drewjensen drewjensen
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Re: New name

On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 17:00 +1300, Graham Lauder wrote:

> On Sunday 03 Oct 2010 02:18:15 Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I'm afraid that although we're still waiting for Oracle's position on the
> > trademark, we already have had a full competition and vote on the name.
> > And we also found out, that names are never a very consensual thing. So
> > we'll stick to this one, unless Oracle agrees to give the trademark...
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Charles.
> >
>  We did??
>
> I subscribe to 20 odd OOo Maillists and I saw no mention of a competition or a
> vote.  So we had a secret Competition and a secret vote around a table over a
> beer at the Conf?
>
> Confused

Hi Graham,

I have to admit I'm a bit confused also.

It seems that people at the conference made decisions that affected all
of us an with not so much as a by your leave to most of us.

Drew

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James Wilde James Wilde
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Re: New name


As I understand it, most of the development team of OOo jumped ship to
set up LibO in anticipation of Oracle making unacceptable changes to the
OOo concept.  I don't know how many they are, but I'd be surprised if
they're over 30, and as far as I and most users are concerned, they
"own" the product.  Many of those of us in here appear to be jumping on
the bandwagon after the event, and some of us will stay, and others will
relapse into being grateful users who understand that they don't
actually have much to offer.  I probably belong in this latter group.

But the point is, the 30 or whatever developers have been planning this
for some time.  They didn't launch LibO after a beer last Friday, and
they, for better or worse, chose LibreOffice as the name.

We're never going to get nearer than 10% agreement however many names we
suggest or polls we run, so let's live with their name, be grateful for
their enthusiasm and let them get on with turning 3.3 beta into 3.3
release instead of slagging them for being undemocratic or dictatorial.

Viva LibO

Just my $0.02

//James
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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: New name

James Wilde wrote:

> As I understand it, most of the development team of OOo jumped ship to
> set up LibO in anticipation of Oracle making unacceptable changes to the
> OOo concept.  I don't know how many they are, but I'd be surprised if
> they're over 30, and as far as I and most users are concerned, they
> "own" the product.

We don't "own" anything. We have simply started the process, and we have
tried to push it forward putting all our enthusiasm and energies behind it.

The process has started a long time before the conference in Budapest,
where there have not been any "parallel" or "secret" sessions. We have
been there as regular OOo community members.

As far as the process of creation of the group is concerned, I would say
that has been very "natural": i.e. we have started discussing the
problem over beers at OOo conferences, then we have started to write
emails and sometimes discuss the subject over the phone or Skype.

Those that were in the loop are part of the group of founding members:
there has not been any deliberate process for bringing in "friends". We
have all "earned" - if I can use this term - the right to belong to the
group based on merit and contribution.

> But the point is, the 30 or whatever developers have been planning this
> for some time.  They didn't launch LibO after a beer last Friday, and
> they, for better or worse, chose LibreOffice as the name.

There is one single concept that has not been raised during the
discussion about the name: the OOo (and now LibO) community is in the
same marketplace as corporations with a turnover of tens of billions of
dollars. Brand names and trademarks are key for protecting the software
and the foundation, and our lawyers have suggested to come out with a
name which was difficult or impossible to attack.

I think that it is time to concentrate on the development of the
community and the software. As far as I am concerned, LibreOffice is
terrible for Italian speakers, but LibO is nice and cute, especially if
you pronounce it with an accent on the last letter: Libò.

In any case, thanks for the discussion. Your interest in the project
shows that we are on the right track.

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Italo Vignoli
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yorick yorick
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Re: New name

On Monday 04 Oct 2010 23:06:39 Italo Vignoli wrote:
> James Wilde wrote:
> > As I understand it, most of the development team of OOo jumped ship to
> > set up LibO in anticipation of Oracle making unacceptable changes to the
> > OOo concept.  I don't know how many they are, but I'd be surprised if
> > they're over 30, and as far as I and most users are concerned, they
> > "own" the product.
>
> We don't "own" anything. We have simply started the process, and we have
> tried to push it forward putting all our enthusiasm and energies behind i
t.
>
> The process has started a long time before the conference in Budapest,
> where there have not been any "parallel" or "secret" sessions. We have
> been there as regular OOo community members.

I'm sorry, if it's offlist, then for the majority of community members it's

secret. That may not seem that way to you, but for the vast majority of the

community it is.
You can see how this can give the impression that we have another Sun
situation going on, critical decisions made away from the community with a

fait accompli handed to us on a plate.  "Here you are, like it or lump it!"


>
> As far as the process of creation of the group is concerned, I would say
> that has been very "natural": i.e. we have started discussing the
> problem over beers at OOo conferences, then we have started to write
> emails and sometimes discuss the subject over the phone or Skype.
>
> Those that were in the loop are part of the group of founding members:
> there has not been any deliberate process for bringing in "friends". We
> have all "earned" - if I can use this term - the right to belong to the
> group based on merit and contribution.
>
> > But the point is, the 30 or whatever developers have been planning this
> > for some time.  They didn't launch LibO after a beer last Friday, and
> > they, for better or worse, chose LibreOffice as the name.
>
> There is one single concept that has not been raised during the
> discussion about the name: the OOo (and now LibO) community is in the
> same marketplace as corporations with a turnover of tens of billions of
> dollars. Brand names and trademarks are key for protecting the software
> and the foundation, and our lawyers have suggested to come out with a
> name which was difficult or impossible to attack.
>
> I think that it is time to concentrate on the development of the
> community and the software. As far as I am concerned, LibreOffice is
> terrible for Italian speakers, but LibO is nice and cute, especially if
> you pronounce it with an accent on the last letter: Libò.
>
> In any case, thanks for the discussion. Your interest in the project
> shows that we are on the right track.

So perhaps what will come out of this is that we will get a conference out
of
Europe, so those of us on the other side of the world who have to spend
obscene amounts of money to get there, might just find ourselves "in the
loop".

The issue that I find frustrating is that no-one felt it necessary to infor
m
the community, I got an email from someone who knows me as the MarCon for N
Z
asking: "What's going on with this?"  I had to say I didn't know.

What would have been so hard about putting together something to post to al
l
the lists at the same time as the press release.  It seems there were some

areas, like looking after the community, that were ignored. (Odd since it s
ays
"open and transparent" in the Vision Statement)

How were we to know how long this had been going on, this secret society,
planning on the quiet.  Even now a week after the press were told we're onl
y
getting some info in dribs and drabs because some of the secret society see
m
to be getting a guilt attack.

This is not a good look.

GL
--
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OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html

OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.

INGOTs Assessor Trainer
(International Grades in Open Technologies)
www.theingots.org
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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: New name

In reply to this post by drewjensen
On 2010-10-04 12:18 AM, Drew Jensen wrote:
> It seems that people at the conference made decisions that affected
> all of us an with not so much as a by your leave to most of us.

Not sure who you mean by 'us', but the principles in the newly
established organization that will become the Foundation will have to
make a lot of decisions without consulting 'us'.

I think too much is being made of this.

There is a reason that the American Founders reviled democracies as one
of the most evil creations man has ever come up with.

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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: New name

In reply to this post by James Wilde
On 2010-10-04 3:45 AM, James Wilde wrote:
> But the point is, the 30 or whatever developers have been planning this
> for some time.  They didn't launch LibO after a beer last Friday, and
> they, for better or worse, chose LibreOffice as the name.
>
> We're never going to get nearer than 10% agreement however many names we
> suggest or polls we run, so let's live with their name, be grateful for
> their enthusiasm and let them get on with turning 3.3 beta into 3.3
> release instead of slagging them for being undemocratic or dictatorial.

+10

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Jide Ogunmekan Jide Ogunmekan
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Re: New name

Jide Ogunmekan

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On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Charles Marcus
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 2010-10-04 3:45 AM, James Wilde wrote:
> > But the point is, the 30 or whatever developers have been planning this
> > for some time.  They didn't launch LibO after a beer last Friday, and
> > they, for better or worse, chose LibreOffice as the name.
> >
> > We're never going to get nearer than 10% agreement however many names w
e

> > suggest or polls we run, so let's live with their name, be grateful for
> > their enthusiasm and let them get on with turning 3.3 beta into 3.3
> > release instead of slagging them for being undemocratic or dictatorial.
>
> +10
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
> --
> To unsubscribe, send an empty e-mail to
> [hidden email]<discuss%2Bunsubscribe@document
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e
> deleted.
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> http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/
>
> Hi all

nuff said. I think what needs to be done now is to proceed with the
application - deliver existing features and extend with new and exciting
stuff that will make it stand out. The name can be reviewed and presented
after some great features that distinguish is have been added.

By the way. The name may or may not make a difference. Here is how it works
.
In a virgin market it may not matter much. In a crowded and mature market,
it has competition and will matter sooner or later. But till then lets make
it the best office app there is out there.

Oh! I would suggest the name "Liberty" if and whenever the time is right.

M two cents

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yorick yorick
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Re: New name

In reply to this post by Charles Marcus
On Monday 04 Oct 2010 23:54:43 Charles Marcus wrote:

> On 2010-10-04 12:18 AM, Drew Jensen wrote:
> > It seems that people at the conference made decisions that affected
> > all of us an with not so much as a by your leave to most of us.
>
> Not sure who you mean by 'us', but the principles in the newly
> established organization that will become the Foundation will have to
> make a lot of decisions without consulting 'us'.
>
> I think too much is being made of this.
>
> There is a reason that the American Founders reviled democracies as one
> of the most evil creations man has ever come up with.

The phrase was: "Democracy is the worst form of Government, except for all the
others."

There were errors made, fix the fallout, don't repeat

Cheers
GL

--
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OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html

OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.

INGOTs Assessor Trainer
(International Grades in Open Technologies)
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Thorsten Behrens Thorsten Behrens
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Re: New name

In reply to this post by yorick
Graham Lauder wrote:
> > We don't "own" anything. We have simply started the process, and we have
> > tried to push it forward putting all our enthusiasm and energies behind
 i
>
> I'm sorry, if it's offlist, then for the majority of community members it
's
> secret. That may not seem that way to you, but for the vast majority of t
he
> community it is.
> You can see how this can give the impression that we have another Sun
> situation going on, critical decisions made away from the community with a
> fait accompli handed to us on a plate.  "Here you are, like it or lump it
!"
>
Yes, we're aware of that danger. Please do remind us on our
obligation to be open and transparent (see our mission statement)
anytime you see a problem.

Our excuse is that we tried to involve at least one prominent
representative from each group inside the large OOo family, and
taking their suggestions seriously.

To paraphrase Italo - we basically drafted the train, laid the first
ten meters of tracks - and now it's up to all of us to write the
future. What generally works best for each of you individually is to
actually do something - there's an abundance of stuff waiting to
be done - and she who does, usually decides. That's why we called for
a meritocracy.

> What would have been so hard about putting together something to
> post to all the lists at the same time as the press release.
> It seems there were some areas, like looking after the community,
> that were ignored. (Odd since it says "open and transparent" in
> the Vision Statement)
>
Hm, I thought we had quite some posts - most prominently the one on
the announce list? If you personally felt left in the dark, please
accept my apologies - there were no bad intentions, just that a few
things got dropped apparently - we're a huge community by all kinds
of measure.

> How were we to know how long this had been going on, this secret
> society, planning on the quiet.  Even now a week after the press
> were told we're only getting some info in dribs and drabs because
> some of the secret society seem to be getting a guilt attack.
>
What info are you missing?

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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OT: Evils of democracy - WAS: Re: [tdf-discuss] New name

In reply to this post by yorick
On 2010-10-04 7:56 AM, Graham Lauder wrote:
>> There is a reason that the American Founders reviled democracies as one
>> > of the most evil creations man has ever come up with.
> The phrase was: "Democracy is the worst form of Government, except for all the
> others."

No, Winston Churchill said that, but it was:

"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others
that have been tried."

But he wasn't an American Founder, and that comment isn't what I was
referring to - I said what I meant and meant what I said.

Read any of the historical founding documents for America and you
quickly see the accuracy of my statement.

Democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner. - always
has been, always will be. Once people discover that they can vote
themselves bread and circuses, a democracy is finished (witness what is
happening in America today).

America was originally created and is supposed to be a Constitutional
Republic - yes, incorporating certain democratic processes (ie, voting
for Representatives, etc), the difference being that in our
Constitutional republic, the power of Congress is strictly limited to
the delegated powers defined in the Constitution itself, and recognizing
that certain Rights are permanently outside the purview of said powers.

> There were errors made, fix the fallout, don't repeat

Voting for Ron Paul and other like minded citizens is about the only
shot we have of fixing it, but I don't hold out much hope, since most
people seem to think that stealing from one to give to someone else is ok.

--

Best regards,

Charles
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Carlos Rocha Carlos Rocha
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Re: New name

In reply to this post by jonathon
  Hi all,

I'm following this discussion with interest. As far I understood so far,
the name "LibreOffice" was choosen by who decided to split with Oracle
OpenOffice. They had the right to do so, no questions about that, and I
appreciate their hard work for the sake of all of us. I thank them.

> Also a very difficult thing is to find a good name that is not already
> registered or trademarked as, unfortunately, most of the names are.
>

But if it was me I wouldn't think in anything else than
OpenDocumentOffice.org. It says it all, and it could be easily be seen
as OOffice, and the good, old, and beautiful OOo.
Go-oo would stand as it is now, OOForum.org could still exist as it is
now, and so on.
A lot less painful IMHO.

Not 2 cents, just 1
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yorick yorick
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Re: New name

In reply to this post by Thorsten Behrens
On Tuesday 05 Oct 2010 03:27:04 Thorsten Behrens wrote:

> Graham Lauder wrote:
> > > We don't "own" anything. We have simply started the process, and we
> > > have tried to push it forward putting all our enthusiasm and energies
> > > behind
>
>  i
>
> > I'm sorry, if it's offlist, then for the majority of community members it
>
> 's
>
> > secret. That may not seem that way to you, but for the vast majority of t
>
> he
>
> > community it is.
> > You can see how this can give the impression that we have another Sun
> > situation going on, critical decisions made away from the community with
> > a fait accompli handed to us on a plate.  "Here you are, like it or lump
> > it
>
> !"
>
> Yes, we're aware of that danger. Please do remind us on our
> obligation to be open and transparent (see our mission statement)
> anytime you see a problem.
>
> Our excuse is that we tried to involve at least one prominent
> representative from each group inside the large OOo family, and
> taking their suggestions seriously.
>
> To paraphrase Italo - we basically drafted the train, laid the first
> ten meters of tracks - and now it's up to all of us to write the
> future. What generally works best for each of you individually is to
> actually do something - there's an abundance of stuff waiting to
> be done - and she who does, usually decides. That's why we called for
> a meritocracy.

Aah you see there you go being all reasonable, very hard to stay pissed in the
face of such reasonableness


>
> > What would have been so hard about putting together something to
> > post to all the lists at the same time as the press release.
> > It seems there were some areas, like looking after the community,
> > that were ignored. (Odd since it says "open and transparent" in
> > the Vision Statement)
>
> Hm, I thought we had quite some posts - most prominently the one on
> the announce list? If you personally felt left in the dark, please
> accept my apologies - there were no bad intentions, just that a few
> things got dropped apparently - we're a huge community by all kinds
> of measure.

And of course announce is probably the one I don't subscribe to, a mention on
MarCon or PR would have been nice to alert those of us who, can't get to
conferences and who were bound to get a barrage of questions that something
was about to happen and help us with a response.  I really do hate being left
hung out to dry

>
> > How were we to know how long this had been going on, this secret
> > society, planning on the quiet.  Even now a week after the press
> > were told we're only getting some info in dribs and drabs because
> > some of the secret society seem to be getting a guilt attack.
>
> What info are you missing?

Most I've probably worked out and that stuff I haven't, I made up using
educated guesswork.

Oracle made an interim response, do we have link to that somewhere.

Michael Meeks is in the heart of this, what's Novells role

Google has thrown it's oar in, in support, will there be any more than lip
service or will they front, maybe with server space.

The response from the corporates seemed quick, were they brought in before the
announcement.

Where does IBM and Symphony fit in, if at all.

When was the anticipated release date, has any been set.

Can I rewrite the Vision and Mission please, it really sucks right now.  :)

OK you've done the easy bit when can we start on the Hard stuff  ;)

Oh and by the way, I'm with Italo:  I Like LibO  the rest of the letters are
extraneous.      

>
> Cheers,
>
> -- Thorsten


Cheers
GL

--
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OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html

OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.

INGOTs Assessor Trainer
(International Grades in Open Technologies)
www.theingots.org
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nabbler nabbler
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Re: New name

In reply to this post by jonathon
I like Staroffice (remember that? :))

A logo could be built around a star and a series of adjacent logos
indicative of an office document type (writer, calc, impress).

Not a serious idea; just a personal opinion.
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Thorsten Behrens Thorsten Behrens
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Re: New name

In reply to this post by yorick
Graham Lauder wrote:
> > What info are you missing?
>
> Most I've probably worked out and that stuff I haven't, I made up using

> educated guesswork.
>
> Oracle made an interim response, do we have link to that somewhere.
>
Martin, from Oracle, was linking to this article:
http://tinyurl.com/36u3ksn

> Michael Meeks is in the heart of this, what's Novells role
>
One of the supporting companies, as listed on
http://www.documentfoundation.org/supporters/

From the companies listed there, the shared intention is to fold
their respective OOo flavours into LibreOffice.

> Google has thrown it's oar in, in support, will there be any more than li
p
> service or will they front, maybe with server space.
>
Cannot speak for them - but surely even lip service from someone
with an outreach like Google is something to appreciate. ;)

> The response from the corporates seemed quick, were they brought in befor
e the
> announcement.
>
Well yes, we had the initial list of supporters on that page from
Day One (it grew since then). This, unfortunately, is one of the
things you only pull off by doing backroom talks ...

> Where does IBM and Symphony fit in, if at all.
>
We would be thrilled to have IBM on board, of course.

> When was the anticipated release date, has any been set.
>
For LibO 3.3? That'll be somewhat aligned with the OOo 3.3 release -
LibO will be based on OOo 3.3 sources (and no, there's no definitive
release date for OOo 3.3 either).

> Can I rewrite the Vision and Mission please, it really sucks right now.
:)
>
Please - constructive criticism is always appreciated! :)

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Jean Weber Jean Weber
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Re: New name

On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 23:36 +0200, Thorsten Behrens wrote:
> Graham Lauder wrote:
> >
> > Oracle made an interim response, do we have link to that somewhere.
> >
> Martin, from Oracle, was linking to this article:
> http://tinyurl.com/36u3ksn

That article refers to a "statement" from Oracle. Where is that
statement? I don't consider a media report an authoritative source.

--Jean

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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: New name

Hi Jean!

Thanks for pointing that out ...

Am Dienstag, den 05.10.2010, 08:02 +1000 schrieb Jean Hollis Weber:

> On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 23:36 +0200, Thorsten Behrens wrote:
> > Graham Lauder wrote:
> > >
> > > Oracle made an interim response, do we have link to that somewhere.
> > >
> > Martin, from Oracle, was linking to this article:
> > http://tinyurl.com/36u3ksn
>
> That article refers to a "statement" from Oracle. Where is that
> statement? I don't consider a media report an authoritative source.

... please have a closer look. The statement has been divided in several
parts, so anytime "Oracle said" appears, this really is their statement.

Does that help?

Cheers,
Christoph


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jonathon jonathon
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Re: New name

In reply to this post by yorick
On 10/04/2010 10:41 AM, Graham Lauder wrote:

> I'm sorry, if it's offlist, then for the majority of community members
it's secret.

Anybody who has paid attention to OOo Project issues over the last
decade, would have known that key developers, and other influential
people in the OOo community would declare independence from Oracle. The
only unknown answer was how soon.

> critical decisions made away from the community with a fait accompli ha
nded to us on a plate.

Given a choice between waking up one morning to discover that the
project had migrated elsewhere, and waking up discovering that the
project had been cancelled, I'd prefer the former eight days a week.

And yes, the odds were/are that Oracle will close (or has closed)  the
OOo program overnight, and only support Oracle OpenOffice. Whether or
not Oracle would make that announcement, either before or after the
fact, is a slightly different tissue.

>It seems there were some areas, like looking after the community, that
were ignored.

In declaring independence, things are always overlooked. Nobody has
written a check list of things to do when declaring Independence.

jonathon
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Andy Brown Andy Brown
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Re: New name

In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
On Mon Oct 04 2010 15:12:06 GMT-0700 (PDT)  Christoph Noack wrote:

> Hi Jean!
>
> Thanks for pointing that out ...
>
> Am Dienstag, den 05.10.2010, 08:02 +1000 schrieb Jean Hollis Weber:
>> On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 23:36 +0200, Thorsten Behrens wrote:
>>> Graham Lauder wrote:
>>>> Oracle made an interim response, do we have link to that somewhere.
>>>>
>>> Martin, from Oracle, was linking to this article:
>>> http://tinyurl.com/36u3ksn
>> That article refers to a "statement" from Oracle. Where is that
>> statement? I don't consider a media report an authoritative source.
>
> ... please have a closer look. The statement has been divided in several
> parts, so anytime "Oracle said" appears, this really is their statement.
>
> Does that help?
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>

Christoph,

I have to agree with Jean.  Anyone can "make a statement" but that is
like listening to sound bits on tv.  What was the complete statement?
Where can it be found?

Inquiring mind what to know..:)

Andy
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