Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

Hi Christophe,

> Did you attend Michael Meeks' presentation at the conference?
> Michael said that LibreOffice Online (LOOL) uses HTML5 Canvas
> to display the user interface, in other words, it does not use a user
> interface toolkit.

Sorry, my fault. I didn't read the whole thread. My mail was only
about porting to Android/IOS.
The Broadway stuff is pretty great in my opinion. While there will be
things that will have to be optimised for the in-browser use case
(mostly window management things, it seems), most of the code written
for it is also relevant for other GTK+ platforms. So, if this means
LibO 3.5 will look near-native in GTK+ 3, you wouldn't even have
needed the whole online availability thing to win me over :).


I am just a bit more pessimistic about Android/IOS, that can share
much less code and it will also be harder to implement. I was quite
surprised when I saw the TDF blog post announcing those ports that
"will become products sometimes in late 2012 or early 2013." I find
this ambitious, but I won't deny the necessity of these ports. That's
all.

Regards,
Astron.

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Andrew Pullins Andrew Pullins
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

>
> As it was explained at the conference, the code used in one will be used in
> the other, so we won't have two suites.


umm... thats what I said. I know that we can reuse code. I am going to
school to become a programmer. I am also an artist thats way im in this list
now.


> As for UI improvements we need to make them in an incremental way. No one
> will change the UI overnight, it
> simply is not realistic.


I think that the people in this mailing list think that I am stupid or
something.  this is the second time some one has told me that this will not
be done over night. I know that this can not be done over night. I am saying
that we need to start working on it. so that in a year or two it will look
awesome.

The problem is that mobile platforms use completely different UI
> toolkits and also have completely different UI needs etc.


and this is way I said some of the code.

Anyway, on the whole I'd agree to the notion that we need a mobile,
> touch-oriented version of LibreOffice to stay afloat.


It would be nice to have a mobile LibreOffice, even a web based one. but it
will not make or brake LibreOffice. the majority of all documents will still
be created on the desktop.


> Since porting to new toolkits/new UI paradigms is a huge pain, I think the
> best would
> be to see if there is a company stepping forward with a plan on how to
> make money from free software here... I don't know if I see this getting
> far without corporate support.


What???

I would like to say that I am not against LibreOffice Android/iOS or LOOL. I
think that these are things that will be great to have. im saying  that we
need to start on the UI of LibreOffice NOW. we can't wait to have a working
tablet/online suite to start working on the desktop UI. which is what will
happen if we start the tablet/online suites and not the desktop UI.

people are not going to download our suite as it is. my sister refuses to
use it, even for the time being until my dad puts M$ Office on her computer,
because it looks awful. people think that open source is ugly, and will not
use it because of that. our goal is to permote open source. Open Source
people such as our selves are going to use LibreOffice just because it is
open source and not whether it looks good or not. but most people could care
less if the thing is open source, as long as it looks good and works. we
have made a suit that works well, now lets make it look good.

when I started my first mock up on the UI I went though all of the tools to
see what we had. I was trying to see if we had most of the tools that M$
Office had. I was able to make all the tool bars that M$ ribbons had. but to
do this I had to go through the tool bar menu and weed out all the tools
that I needed. normal people are not going to do this. if they can not see
that LibreOffice has the tool they need at a quick look through of our menus
then they are going to assume that it is not apart of the software. my
brother needed mailmerge not too long ago. I told him that
LibreOffice probably had it, that all he needed to do was look through the
menu. hes a nerd as well, but he never did it. he knew that the tool was
there, but he did not want to go look for it, I even told him that the tool
did exist. there are awesome tools hidden behind things that most people
would not even think of looking through, and the nerds are too lazy to go
though.  we need to clean up the UI, NOW.






On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 5:22 PM, Astron <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Christophe,
>
> > Did you attend Michael Meeks' presentation at the conference?
> > Michael said that LibreOffice Online (LOOL) uses HTML5 Canvas
> > to display the user interface, in other words, it does not use a user
> > interface toolkit.
>
> Sorry, my fault. I didn't read the whole thread. My mail was only
> about porting to Android/IOS.
> The Broadway stuff is pretty great in my opinion. While there will be
> things that will have to be optimised for the in-browser use case
> (mostly window management things, it seems), most of the code written
> for it is also relevant for other GTK+ platforms. So, if this means
> LibO 3.5 will look near-native in GTK+ 3, you wouldn't even have
> needed the whole online availability thing to win me over :).
>
>
> I am just a bit more pessimistic about Android/IOS, that can share
> much less code and it will also be harder to implement. I was quite
> surprised when I saw the TDF blog post announcing those ports that
> "will become products sometimes in late 2012 or early 2013." I find
> this ambitious, but I won't deny the necessity of these ports. That's
> all.
>
> Regards,
> Astron.
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

Hi Andrew,

>> As it was explained at the conference, the code used in one will be used in
>> the other, so we won't have two suites.
>
>
> umm... thats what I said. I know that we can reuse code.

I'll try to summarise what is necessary for LibreOffice Online (I hope
this won't madden you):
* Broadway (i. e. the server code that makes the GTK+ → Canvas
conversion and serves it) – part of GTK+ 3 (not LibreOffice!) and
already written
* a good GTK+ 3 backend for LibreOffice's VCL toolkit – partially
written, and we'd need it anyway to make LibreOffice look good on GTK+
3 platforms (that is, all major current Linux distributions), staying
with a GTK+ 2 backend only is not an option anyway
* some tweaks to floating toolbars and other window management things
– no idea, if there's anything there, but probably not a major effort.
As you can see, there's no reason for anxiety, as Broadway does the
magic and most of the work helps us on all desktop Linux platforms.

This is very different for Android and IOS, because on both platforms,
LibreOffice would need a native, touch-centric port. In other words, a
complete UI rewrite – and that's where I see space for a start-up to
step in. I have doubts whether the current community is strong enough
to pull this off, but let's see. We shan't be pessimists.


> I think that the people in this mailing list think that I am stupid or
> something.

There are different people on this list, not everyone knows everyone
else and not everyone reads their mail equally thoroughly etc. Please
just bear with people when they repeat points that have already been
brought up. I wouldn't understand this as a personal attack.


> It would be nice to have a mobile LibreOffice, even a web based one. but it
> will not make or brake LibreOffice. the majority of all documents will still
> be created on the desktop.

#1 I wouldn't be so sure about this. Tablets seem very attractive to
consumers, especially since using them is so "intuitive" and their
power to battery life balance is so far unmatched by laptops.
#2 For IOS there's I-Work, for WP7 there's MS Office, but for Android
there isn't much (i. e. Quickoffice) – so there's a real market niche
here.


> I would like to say that I am not against LibreOffice Android/iOS or LOOL. I
> think that these are things that will be great to have. im saying  that we
> need to start on the UI of LibreOffice NOW. we can't wait to have a working
> tablet/online suite to start working on the desktop UI. which is what will
> happen if we start the tablet/online suites and not the desktop UI.

Please read what I said more carefully. I didn't say that we (as the
community) should stop working on the desktop suite to make the mobile
suite happen. Quite the opposite.


> people are not going to download our suite as it is. my sister refuses to
> use it, even for the time being until my dad puts M$ Office on her computer,
> because it looks awful. people think that open source is ugly, and will not
> use it because of that.

You can't force her to use it. Also, please don't imply that MS Office
isn't ugly. It is (see also: inconsistent UI fonts, non-resizable
dialogues, huge installation size, OOXML).


> there are awesome tools hidden behind things that most people
> would not even think of looking through, and the nerds are too lazy to go
> though.  we need to clean up the UI, NOW.

Please realise this isn't a dictatorship. It's a meritocracy, and the
way to gain merit for design people here is to try and work with the
devs on their ideas. Devs don't always have so much interest in the
UI, so you'll slowly have to convince them of your value.

Astron.

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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

Hello,

2011/10/22 Astron <[hidden email]>

> Hi Andrew,
>
> >> As it was explained at the conference, the code used in one will be used
> in
> >> the other, so we won't have two suites.
> >
> >
> > umm... thats what I said. I know that we can reuse code.
>
> I'll try to summarise what is necessary for LibreOffice Online (I hope
> this won't madden you):
> * Broadway (i. e. the server code that makes the GTK+ → Canvas
> conversion and serves it) – part of GTK+ 3 (not LibreOffice!) and
> already written
> * a good GTK+ 3 backend for LibreOffice's VCL toolkit – partially
> written, and we'd need it anyway to make LibreOffice look good on GTK+
> 3 platforms (that is, all major current Linux distributions), staying
> with a GTK+ 2 backend only is not an option anyway
> * some tweaks to floating toolbars and other window management things
> – no idea, if there's anything there, but probably not a major effort.
> As you can see, there's no reason for anxiety, as Broadway does the
> magic and most of the work helps us on all desktop Linux platforms.
>
> This is very different for Android and IOS, because on both platforms,
> LibreOffice would need a native, touch-centric port. In other words, a
> complete UI rewrite – and that's where I see space for a start-up to
> step in. I have doubts whether the current community is strong enough
> to pull this off, but let's see. We shan't be pessimists.
>


+1 to all the above.


>
>
> > I think that the people in this mailing list think that I am stupid or
> > something.
>
> There are different people on this list, not everyone knows everyone
> else and not everyone reads their mail equally thoroughly etc. Please
> just bear with people when they repeat points that have already been
> brought up. I wouldn't understand this as a personal attack.
>
>
> > It would be nice to have a mobile LibreOffice, even a web based one. but
> it
> > will not make or brake LibreOffice. the majority of all documents will
> still
> > be created on the desktop.
>
> #1 I wouldn't be so sure about this. Tablets seem very attractive to
> consumers, especially since using them is so "intuitive" and their
> power to battery life balance is so far unmatched by laptops.
> #2 For IOS there's I-Work, for WP7 there's MS Office, but for Android
> there isn't much (i. e. Quickoffice) – so there's a real market niche
> here.
>
>
> > I would like to say that I am not against LibreOffice Android/iOS or
> LOOL. I
> > think that these are things that will be great to have. im saying  that
> we
> > need to start on the UI of LibreOffice NOW. we can't wait to have a
> working
> > tablet/online suite to start working on the desktop UI. which is what
> will
> > happen if we start the tablet/online suites and not the desktop UI.
>
> Please read what I said more carefully. I didn't say that we (as the
> community) should stop working on the desktop suite to make the mobile
> suite happen. Quite the opposite.
>
>
> > people are not going to download our suite as it is. my sister refuses to
> > use it, even for the time being until my dad puts M$ Office on her
> computer,
> > because it looks awful. people think that open source is ugly, and will
> not
> > use it because of that.
>
> You can't force her to use it. Also, please don't imply that MS Office
> isn't ugly. It is (see also: inconsistent UI fonts, non-resizable
> dialogues, huge installation size, OOXML).
>
>
> > there are awesome tools hidden behind things that most people
> > would not even think of looking through, and the nerds are too lazy to go
> > though.  we need to clean up the UI, NOW.
>
> Please realise this isn't a dictatorship. It's a meritocracy, and the
> way to gain merit for design people here is to try and work with the
> devs on their ideas. Devs don't always have so much interest in the
> UI, so you'll slowly have to convince them of your value.
>


Yes and... write specifications as a team. UI groundwork . :)

Best,
Charles.


>
> Astron.
>
> --
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>

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Andrew Pullins Andrew Pullins
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

>
>  I'll try to summarise what is necessary for LibreOffice Online (I hope
>
> this won't madden you):
>

Im not mad, im just a bit fustrated and trying to make every one see why we
need to get this rolling soon.


> * Broadway[...]part of GTK+ 3 (not LibreOffice!) and
> already written
>

cool


> * a good GTK+ 3 backend for LibreOffice's VCL toolkit – partially
> written, and we'd need it anyway to make LibreOffice look good on GTK+
> 3 platforms (that is, all major current Linux distributions), staying
> with a GTK+ 2 backend only is not an option anyway
>

so to make LOOL we need to change GTK+2 to GTK+3 which we are going to have
to do to make the desktop UI look good any way?


> * some tweaks to floating toolbars and other window management things
> – no idea, if there's anything there, but probably not a major effort.
>

are you talking code or GUI here. because here is a link to what Mirek has
done to the floatbars http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Trs-float.png


> As you can see, there's no reason for anxiety, as Broadway does the
> magic and most of the work helps us on all desktop Linux platforms.


you say for linux, but what about widows and mac, will it be the same amount
of work as for linux?

so to make LOOL will just be an easy port with some minor changes to make it
work, and sence we are changing it any way it will not be that hard to make
the same changes to the desktop. Right?

This is very different for Android and IOS, because on both platforms,
> LibreOffice would need a native, touch-centric port. In other words, a

 complete UI rewrite


of corse the UI for these devices will be different. it will have to be
drasticly different. we should try to make it work as much like the desktop
as we can but still be as simplistic as possible. for these devises we do
not want it to be complicated. because thats what the devices were made
for, simplicity.


>  – and that's where I see space for a start-up to step in. I have doubts

 whether the current community is strong enough to pull this off, but

 let's see. We shan't be pessimists.


I don't know what you mean by the start-up, but it seems as though we should
then start on the LOOL/desktop. then tackal the tablet. besides the tablet
suite will need a completly new kind of UI all together. though Im looking
at the Citrus UI and it is already very simplistic enough to be a tablet
suite. if you can not tell I am absolutly enamerd by Citrus, and think that
it is one of the best UI designs I have ever seen. I really recomened that
you read Mirek's blog to learn more about how it works, because its not just
a pritty UI, it works differently then what we have used before.
http://clickortap.wordpress.com/



> #1 I wouldn't be so sure about this. Tablets seem very attractive toconsumers,
> especially since using them is so "intuitive" and their
> power to battery life balance is so far unmatched by laptops.
>

yes but have you ever tryed to write a document on something that does not
have a key board and does not work like the desktop counter part. I mate be
wrong but I think that most people will still create on the desktop.


> #2 For IOS there's I-Work, for WP7 there's MS Office, but for Android
> there isn't much (i. e. Quickoffice) – so there's a real market niche
> here.


oh I understand this, im just arguing that fact that we need to keep up on
the desktop counterparts before we make the tablet/LOOL suites.

Please read what I said more carefully. I didn't say that we (as thecommunity)
> should stop working on the desktop suite to make the mobile
> suite happen. Quite the opposite.
>

im not saying that development will stop ether, bugs will be reported and
fixed. some features will be added... but will the UI be improved if we
start on two new projects... I think not.

You can't force her to use it. Also, please don't imply that MS Officeisn't
> ugly.


I did not force her to use it, computer broke, we fixed it, she did not have
M$O so I tried to introduce her to a alternative that she may have liked
while deciding whether or not she wanted to reinstall M$O. im not trying to
imply anything. I just talked to her about why she did not like it and she
said that."I did not know how to maneuver it, I looked old, I did not know
how it worked... and umm well... it looked old." yah I put her into a
program that she did not know how to use, but she is smart and has used text
editors much like this all the time.  but she was still turned off by that
it looked old. yes people do not use M$O because it looks good, they use it
because(well its all they know of because of Micro$ft) of the navigation,
and the tool set, and its what they have been using for a long time, and it
LOOKS GOOD.

It is (see also: inconsistent UI fonts, non-resizable
> dialogues, huge installation size, OOXML).


what???


> Please realise this isn't a dictatorship. It's a meritocracy, and theway
> to gain merit for design people here is to try and work with the
> devs on their ideas. Devs don't always have so much interest in the
> UI, so you'll slowly have to convince them of your value.


how is this convincing... if we do not change the UI, what we are doing
is pointless. The Dev team, the design team, the marketing team, the waht
ever else we have team.

just bear with people when they repeat points that have already been
> brought up. I wouldn't understand this as a personal attack.


its not a personal attack, got it, people will repeat things, got it. you
have repeated both twice in the thread by the way. im just trying to get
people to understand the UI side

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Andrew Pullins Andrew Pullins
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

thought of something else to say


> Please realise this isn't a dictatorship. It's a meritocracy, and the
> way to gain merit for design people here is to try and work with the
> devs on their ideas. Devs don't always have so much interest in the
> UI, so you'll slowly have to convince them of your value.


Im trying to get the design team on my side so that WE can get the DEV team
on OUR side. in hopes that WE AS A HOLE can get the ball rolling on the
thing.

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Andrew Pullins <[hidden email]>wrote:

>  I'll try to summarise what is necessary for LibreOffice Online (I hope
>>
>> this won't madden you):
>>
>
> Im not mad, im just a bit fustrated and trying to make every one see why we
> need to get this rolling soon.
>
>
>> * Broadway[...]part of GTK+ 3 (not LibreOffice!) and
>> already written
>>
>
> cool
>
>
>> * a good GTK+ 3 backend for LibreOffice's VCL toolkit – partially
>> written, and we'd need it anyway to make LibreOffice look good on GTK+
>> 3 platforms (that is, all major current Linux distributions), staying
>> with a GTK+ 2 backend only is not an option anyway
>>
>
> so to make LOOL we need to change GTK+2 to GTK+3 which we are going to have
> to do to make the desktop UI look good any way?
>
>
>> * some tweaks to floating toolbars and other window management things
>> – no idea, if there's anything there, but probably not a major effort.
>>
>
> are you talking code or GUI here. because here is a link to what Mirek has
> done to the floatbars
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Trs-float.png
>
>
>> As you can see, there's no reason for anxiety, as Broadway does the
>> magic and most of the work helps us on all desktop Linux platforms.
>
>
> you say for linux, but what about widows and mac, will it be the same
> amount of work as for linux?
>
> so to make LOOL will just be an easy port with some minor changes to make
> it work, and sence we are changing it any way it will not be that hard to
> make the same changes to the desktop. Right?
>
> This is very different for Android and IOS, because on both platforms,
>> LibreOffice would need a native, touch-centric port. In other words, a
>
>  complete UI rewrite
>
>
> of corse the UI for these devices will be different. it will have to be
> drasticly different. we should try to make it work as much like the desktop
> as we can but still be as simplistic as possible. for these devises we do
> not want it to be complicated. because thats what the devices were made
> for, simplicity.
>
>
>>  – and that's where I see space for a start-up to step in. I have doubts
>
>  whether the current community is strong enough to pull this off, but
>
>  let's see. We shan't be pessimists.
>
>
> I don't know what you mean by the start-up, but it seems as though we
> should then start on the LOOL/desktop. then tackal the tablet. besides the
> tablet suite will need a completly new kind of UI all together. though Im
> looking at the Citrus UI and it is already very simplistic enough to be a
> tablet suite. if you can not tell I am absolutly enamerd by Citrus, and
> think that it is one of the best UI designs I have ever seen. I really
> recomened that you read Mirek's blog to learn more about how it works,
> because its not just a pritty UI, it works differently then what we have
> used before.
> http://clickortap.wordpress.com/
>
>
>
>> #1 I wouldn't be so sure about this. Tablets seem very attractive toconsumers,
>> especially since using them is so "intuitive" and their
>>
>> power to battery life balance is so far unmatched by laptops.
>>
>
> yes but have you ever tryed to write a document on something that does not
> have a key board and does not work like the desktop counter part. I mate be
> wrong but I think that most people will still create on the desktop.
>
>
>> #2 For IOS there's I-Work, for WP7 there's MS Office, but for Android
>> there isn't much (i. e. Quickoffice) – so there's a real market niche
>> here.
>
>
> oh I understand this, im just arguing that fact that we need to keep up on
> the desktop counterparts before we make the tablet/LOOL suites.
>
> Please read what I said more carefully. I didn't say that we (as thecommunity)
>> should stop working on the desktop suite to make the mobile
>>
>> suite happen. Quite the opposite.
>>
>
> im not saying that development will stop ether, bugs will be reported and
> fixed. some features will be added... but will the UI be improved if we
> start on two new projects... I think not.
>
> You can't force her to use it. Also, please don't imply that MS Officeisn't
>> ugly.
>
>
> I did not force her to use it, computer broke, we fixed it, she did not
> have M$O so I tried to introduce her to a alternative that she may have
> liked while deciding whether or not she wanted to reinstall M$O. im not
> trying to imply anything. I just talked to her about why she did not like it
> and she said that."I did not know how to maneuver it, I looked old, I did
> not know how it worked... and umm well... it looked old." yah I put her into
> a program that she did not know how to use, but she is smart and has used
> text editors much like this all the time.  but she was still turned off
> by that it looked old. yes people do not use M$O because it looks good, they
> use it because(well its all they know of because of Micro$ft) of the
> navigation, and the tool set, and its what they have been using for a long
> time, and it LOOKS GOOD.
>
> It is (see also: inconsistent UI fonts, non-resizable
>> dialogues, huge installation size, OOXML).
>
>
> what???
>
>
>> Please realise this isn't a dictatorship. It's a meritocracy, and theway
>> to gain merit for design people here is to try and work with the
>>
>> devs on their ideas. Devs don't always have so much interest in the
>> UI, so you'll slowly have to convince them of your value.
>>
>
> how is this convincing... if we do not change the UI, what we are doing
> is pointless. The Dev team, the design team, the marketing team, the waht
> ever else we have team.
>
>  just bear with people when they repeat points that have already been
>> brought up. I wouldn't understand this as a personal attack.
>
>
> its not a personal attack, got it, people will repeat things, got it. you
> have repeated both twice in the thread by the way. im just trying to get
> people to understand the UI side
>
>
>

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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

In reply to this post by Andrew Pullins
Hi Andrew, Astron, Charles, all!

Interesting discussion so far :-)

Am Samstag, den 22.10.2011, 17:18 -0400 schrieb Andrew Pullins:
> >
> >  I'll try to summarise what is necessary for LibreOffice Online (I hope
> >
> > this won't madden you):
>
> Im not mad, im just a bit fustrated and trying to make every one see why we
> need to get this rolling soon.

I think everybody sees the need that adaptations are required, but the
perceived urgency might vary.

Why?
      * Do we know what the devs who make LibreOffice compile on other
        platforms do have in mind?
      * Does porting to Android/iOS tell us anything about the devices
        and their input devices that will get supported?
      * Does spending less effort on LibreOffice Desktop help to improve
        future UIs on other platforms?
      * Do we know what LibreOffice UI elements need to be adapted
        (without the need to have developers looking at the code)?
      * Do we have sufficient expertise on how an e.g. Android program
        needs to behave / look like?
      * ...


[...]
> > * some tweaks to floating toolbars and other window management things
> > – no idea, if there's anything there, but probably not a major effort.
>
> are you talking code or GUI here. because here is a link to what Mirek has
> done to the floatbars http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Trs-float.png

Astron, there is some very basic window management available that
currently handles the windows shown in the browser. Very basic means
that e.g. the floating toolbars do have doubled window titles.

>From my point-of-view, the final solution should not show LibO in a
browser window, but the browser window should appear like LibO. But,
that also means that we need some dedicated handling for toolbars (and
other stuff).

But, there is other stuff that needs to be handled first ... Michael has
a good set of open points to be addressed ;-)

> This is very different for Android and IOS, because on both platforms,
> > LibreOffice would need a native, touch-centric port. In other words, a
>  complete UI rewrite
>
> of corse the UI for these devices will be different. it will have to be
> drasticly different. we should try to make it work as much like the desktop
> as we can but still be as simplistic as possible. for these devises we do
> not want it to be complicated. because thats what the devices were made
> for, simplicity.

That needs some refinement from my point-of-view. The devices running
Android, iOS were made for different tasks ... and became popular for
that. Today, people demand to use those devices for different tasks as
well - sometimes it works well, sometimes it does not.

My question here is, what tasks can be improved / are required for
LibreOffice on such platforms. What set of functionality can be derived
for such cases? What tasks will be exclusive for a "classical desktop"?
What differentiates LibreOffice on Android/iOS from normal ODF viewers?
(You got the point, I guess.)

It is possible to work on most of these questions without developer
support. Quite the contrary - I assume these answers will be quite
helpful for the developers once they have solved the very basic
technical difficulties.

[...]

> im not saying that development will stop ether, bugs will be reported and
> fixed. some features will be added... but will the UI be improved if we
> start on two new projects... I think not.

Why do you think that? As we have different objectives, each developer
has his own goal (sometimes aligned with the goal of the company he
works for *g*). That means some of them care for the Desktop UI, some
might care about the iOS/Android UI

What I perceived at the LibreOffice Conference is, that developers do
care about the LibreOffice we have, and that there are more support
requests by them than we (on libreoffice-ux-advise) do currently handle
(providing facts, collect requirements, do competition analysis, provide
UI proposals, test daily builds, ...).

Here, again, a hint towards the presentation we gave at the LibreOffice
Conference:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/e/e6/2011-10-15v3_LibOCon_Non-Hacker-Tasks_Schnabel-Noack.pdf

[...]

So finally, what's the takeaway of my mail?
      * Improving the "normal" LibreOffice will help to get a better
        product on other platforms as well. But that needs helping
        hands.
      * People who are interested can work on the iOS/Android stuff
        without the need to convince developers or the whole community
        in advance. There is a lot "theoretical" stuff that can be done,
        even before developers touch the visible parts of the UI.

Cheers,
Christoph


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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

In reply to this post by Andrew Pullins
Hi,

again some clarifications.
>> * a good GTK+ 3 backend for LibreOffice's VCL toolkit – partially
>> written, and we'd need it anyway to make LibreOffice look good on GTK+
>> 3 platforms (that is, all major current Linux distributions), staying
>> with a GTK+ 2 backend only is not an option anyway
>>
>
> so to make LOOL we need to change GTK+2 to GTK+3 which we are going to have
> to do to make the desktop UI look good any way?

To display graphical user interfaces, it is helpful to have UI
toolkits that define how e. g. a button or a scrollbars looks and
works. LibO uses the VCL toolkit (which is only used by LibO and Ooo).
The (unskinned) look of this toolkit would probably be very similar to
the Windows 95 look. To make LibO look a bit more integrated into
various systems, the VCL toolkit has several backends for native
toolkits (these sort of skin LibreOffice):
* for Windows
* for Mac OS
* for Gnome 2/GTK+ 2 (which runs on different OS's (BSD, Solaris,
Linux, ...), but mainly it is run on Linux)
...

The GTK+ 2 toolkit itself is currently being phased out. In other
words, there are still lots of software projects using it, but GTK+ 3
has been out for over six months and there will probably be no further
GTK+ 2 releases. While most desktop Linux versions will come with both
versions by default for at least another year, it's a good thing to
have support before we get cut off.


>> * some tweaks to floating toolbars and other window management things
>> – no idea, if there's anything there, but probably not a major effort.
>>
>
> are you talking code or GUI here. because here is a link to what Mirek has
> done to the floatbars http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Trs-float.png

I was speaking about the thing Christoph mentioned – floating toolbars
currently have two titlebars in LibO online:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUfYRBMVkMQ (skip to ~1:05).


> you say for linux, but what about widows and mac, will it be the same amount
> of work as for linux?

The current implementation of LibO online is dependent on GTK+ and
GTK+ is primarily a Linux technology. Gtk+ can be used on both Mac and
Linux (after all, that's what Gimp and Pidgin do). Still, it's
improbable that much work will be put into making LibO online running
smoothly there. After all, Linux is probably the cheapest and most
reliable option for servers. (On the user's end it doesn't matter what
OS there is, since it's all displayed in the browser.)


> its not a personal attack, got it, people will repeat things, got it. you
> have repeated both twice in the thread by the way. im just trying to get
> people to understand the UI side

Uh-huh. If you mean the mail before yours: Charles quoted me verbatim
(and added two small remarks). Otherwise I am not sure what you mean
here.

Regards,
Astron.

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Andrew Pullins Andrew Pullins
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

HI


> The current implementation of LibO online is dependent on GTK+ andGTK+ is
> primarily a Linux technology. Gtk+ can be used on both Mac and
> Linux (after all, that's what Gimp and Pidgin do). Still, it's
> improbable that much work will be put into making LibO online running
> smoothly there. After all, Linux is probably the cheapest and most
> reliable option for servers. (On the user's end it doesn't matter what
> OS there is, since it's all displayed in the browser.)
>

I was talking about how, I think by what you said, that it will be easy to
make LOOL and desktop look good at the same time. when LOOL is made it
should work well on all platformes because its a browser thing. may need
some tweeking here or there, but for the most part it should just work.


> Uh-huh. If you mean the mail before yours: Charles quoted me verbatim
> (and added two small remarks). Otherwise I am not sure what you mean
> here.
>

I do not know what I meant just forget it.

cheers
Andrew

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Andrew Pullins Andrew Pullins
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

>
> Hi


 That needs some refinement from my point-of-view. The devices runningAndroid,
> iOS were made for different tasks ... and became popular for that. Today,
> people demand to use those devices for different tasks as well - sometimes
> it works well, sometimes it does not. that. Today, people demand to use
> those devices for different tasks as well - sometimes it works well,
> sometimes it does not.


yah the different tablets will serve different tasks but LibreOffice
should serve the same task all across the board... I do not see what your
getting at.

My question here is, what tasks can be improved / are required for
> LibreOffice on such platforms. What set of functionality can be derived
> for such cases? What tasks will be exclusive for a "classical desktop"?
> What differentiates LibreOffice on Android/iOS from normal ODF viewers?
> (You got the point, I guess.)


I don't know, maybe a sort of dumb down LibreOffice. not all the
functionality needs to go into a tablet suite. what gets taken out or left
in, I don't know. we will have to decide that some how.

 Why do you think that? As we have different objectives, each developer

 has his own goal (sometimes aligned with the goal of the company he
> works for *g*). That means some of them care for the Desktop UI, some
> might care about the iOS/Android UI


I think this because most devs do not care about what the thing looks like.
they could make the absolute ugliest UI ever and they would be happy that it
worked. the rest of the world would be absolutely confused but that does not
seem to matter for a dev. they know how to work it why does every one else
have a problem with it.


> (sometimes aligned with the goal of the company he works for *g*).


ok that is the second or third time I have saw some one say that. what do
you mean my "*g*".


 What I perceived at the LibreOffice Conference is, that developers do
> care about the LibreOffice we have, and that there are more support
> requests by them than we (on libreoffice-ux-advise) do currently handle
> (providing facts, collect requirements, do competition analysis, provide
> UI proposals, test daily builds, ...).


sounds like we need better communication between teams then.

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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

Hi Andrew, all!

Just a quick answer, since some mails are waiting today ...

Am Montag, den 24.10.2011, 00:21 -0400 schrieb Andrew Pullins:

> >
> > Hi
>
>
>  That needs some refinement from my point-of-view. The devices runningAndroid,
> > iOS were made for different tasks ... and became popular for that. Today,
> > people demand to use those devices for different tasks as well - sometimes
> > it works well, sometimes it does not. that. Today, people demand to use
> > those devices for different tasks as well - sometimes it works well,
> > sometimes it does not.
>
>
> yah the different tablets will serve different tasks but LibreOffice
> should serve the same task all across the board... I do not see what your
> getting at.

Question: If a tablet does not offer a mouse (you need to use your
finger instead), has no keyboard (entering text is hard, speech
recognition does not work yet reliably), does it make _sense_ to use
LibO for the very same tasks? Or does the "should serve the same tasks"
make things more complicated than necessary?


> My question here is, what tasks can be improved / are required for
> > LibreOffice on such platforms. What set of functionality can be derived
> > for such cases? What tasks will be exclusive for a "classical desktop"?
> > What differentiates LibreOffice on Android/iOS from normal ODF viewers?
> > (You got the point, I guess.)
>
> I don't know, maybe a sort of dumb down LibreOffice. not all the
> functionality needs to go into a tablet suite. what gets taken out or left
> in, I don't know. we will have to decide that some how.

Correct. But the "somehow" starts before asking the devs for a new UI.


>  Why do you think that? As we have different objectives, each developer
>
>  has his own goal (sometimes aligned with the goal of the company he
> > works for *g*). That means some of them care for the Desktop UI, some
> > might care about the iOS/Android UI
>
>
> I think this because most devs do not care about what the thing looks like.
> they could make the absolute ugliest UI ever and they would be happy that it
> worked. the rest of the world would be absolutely confused but that does not
> seem to matter for a dev. they know how to work it why does every one else
> have a problem with it.

Sigh. The Design Team is not about the look only, it is about how we can
support user tasks by efficient workflows. However, any developer I know
is happy if things work and look good (without requiring too much work
for him). So why do you think that devs don't care?


> > (sometimes aligned with the goal of the company he works for *g*).
>
>
> ok that is the second or third time I have saw some one say that. what do
> you mean my "*g*".

*g* = fat grin

Sorry for that, I assumed it is (now) common Internet slang.

>  What I perceived at the LibreOffice Conference is, that developers do
> > care about the LibreOffice we have, and that there are more support
> > requests by them than we (on libreoffice-ux-advise) do currently handle
> > (providing facts, collect requirements, do competition analysis, provide
> > UI proposals, test daily builds, ...).
>
>
> sounds like we need better communication between teams then.

Yes and no at the same time. If people work together, then communication
simply happens ... libreoffice-ux-advise currently works perfectly well
for what it has been created for.

But back to the original issue; asking developers for a new UI without
(the Design Team) knowing what to ask for, is hardly working
together ;-) So my suggestion is that you start to pick some of the open
questions we've raised in this thread ... that would be extremely
helpful and also convey to the development that we care.

Cheers,
Christoph


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Andrew Pullins Andrew Pullins
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

>
>  Question: If a tablet does not offer a mouse (you need to use your
>
> finger instead), has no keyboard (entering text is hard, speech
> recognition does not work yet reliably), does it make _sense_ to use
> LibO for the very same tasks? Or does the "should serve the same tasks"
> make things more complicated than necessary?


Creating documents is what I was referring to. mouse and keyboard are things
we use to make the docs. of course we do not have these things. what task do
you think that the tablet suites should serve. viewing documents, thats
nice... but what if you want to create or edit them.

Sigh. The Design Team is not about the look only, it is about how we can
> support user tasks by efficient workflows. However, any developer I know

 is happy if things work and look good (without requiring too much work
> for him). So why do you think that devs don't care?


because most do not. I do not know any of our devs so if you say that they
are on board and want to make it look good to........ then why are we
arguing. could have saved some time, and id be a little less pissed off
wanting to just leave all together. the only reason I am here on the design
team is to make the suite look better. but if you guys want to contenue
arguing about this I will just leave. no point arguing with designers about
how it should look pretty, that just sounds stupid.

*g* = fat grin

Sorry for that, I assumed it is (now) common Internet slang.


yah never seen that before.

But back to the original issue; asking developers for a new UI without
> (the Design Team) knowing what to ask for, is hardly working
> together ;-) So my suggestion is that you start to pick some of the open
> questions we've raised in this thread ... that would be extremely
> helpful and also convey to the development that we care.


I do not understand, what questions are you talking about. one question I do
have for the hole mailing list is what do you think of Citrus. have you
looked at it. there are some who have said that they are interested in the
UI apart from me and Mirek but they have not joined in his and my
conversation back and fourth.

what does every one think of it. it is the most complete UI that has
been purposed that I know of. here [1] is Mirek's LO wiki page that goes
through the basics about how it works, and here [2] is his blog that goes
through much more in detail about it. he is working on something, but I do
not know what. have not seen him in a while.

[1]
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Citrus_UI
[2]
http://clickortap.wordpress.com/

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Rafael Rocha Daud Rafael Rocha Daud
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

In reply to this post by Stefan Knorr (Astron)
Hi Andrew,

Em 25-10-2011 08:00, Andrew Pullins <[hidden email]> escreveu:

> I do not understand, what questions are you talking about. one question I do
> have for the hole mailing list is what do you think of Citrus. have you
> looked at it. there are some who have said that they are interested in the
> UI apart from me and Mirek but they have not joined in his and my
> conversation back and fourth.
>
> what does every one think of it. it is the most complete UI that has
> been purposed that I know of. here [1] is Mirek's LO wiki page that goes
> through the basics about how it works, and here [2] is his blog that goes
> through much more in detail about it. he is working on something, but I do
> not know what. have not seen him in a while.
I don't think Citrus is a bad idea, on the whole. The problem with it
is: they have been conceived as a whole. Things should look pretty, of
course (my girlfriend loves LibreOffice, but my brother won't use it
unless it looks better -- same story everywhere), but that's not our
only concern: we already have a large userbase, and a way of how things
work in the interface. You cannot simply change this overnight. But you
know that.
So, assuming you know that, this is not a matter of embracing Mirek's
design or not, but whether to embrace it in each part. That's why
there's is the UI_Elements [1] page: we should see them as parts,
discuss one by one and find out if it's for better to change it or not.
Small changes are easier to do, to manage, to get used to (from a user
and developer point of view), but most of all, it needs hacking, so you
cannot go to devs and say: "this is how we would like the whole
application to look". You have to take one small part and convince them
that it would be important to change this one, because it would better
this and that.
Even inside our team: even if Citrus is a good idea (which I'm not
convinced about, but this is off-topic now), there could be better
solutions for each element. This discussion sounds the same as the
(thankfully dead) ribbon/not ribbon one. Because it's not a matter of
changing the whole interface (that's the mistake Microsoft did, but
that's according to theirs, not ours, model of business), it's a matter
of enhancing small parts at each time.

That leads to the question, what do we want from LibreOffice, often
raised (Christoph mentions that again from the Paris conference -- miss
the link now, sorry). We should discuss that instead of
Citrus/Ribbon/any ready-magic solution.

Cheers,
Rafael

[1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/UI_Elements

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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

Hi Rafael, Andrew!

Rafael, wow, a post that covers many of my thoughts ... thanks for
that :-)

Am Dienstag, den 25.10.2011, 10:41 -0200 schrieb Rafael Rocha Daud:
> Hi Andrew,
>
> Em 25-10-2011 08:00, Andrew Pullins <[hidden email]> escreveu:
[... Citrus Prposal ...]

> I don't think Citrus is a bad idea, on the whole. The problem with it
> is: they have been conceived as a whole. Things should look pretty, of
> course (my girlfriend loves LibreOffice, but my brother won't use it
> unless it looks better -- same story everywhere), but that's not our
> only concern: we already have a large userbase, and a way of how things
> work in the interface. You cannot simply change this overnight. But you
> know that.

>From the user's point-of-view, that's absolutely true.

But its also true from the point of the developers - things have to be
specified, coordinated, developed, tested, documented, ... so it needs
to be done step by step anyway.

> So, assuming you know that, this is not a matter of embracing Mirek's
> design or not, but whether to embrace it in each part. That's why
> there's is the UI_Elements [1] page: we should see them as parts,
> discuss one by one and find out if it's for better to change it or not.
> Small changes are easier to do, to manage, to get used to (from a user
> and developer point of view), but most of all, it needs hacking, so you
> cannot go to devs and say: "this is how we would like the whole
> application to look". You have to take one small part and convince them
> that it would be important to change this one, because it would better
> this and that.

Even if they are convinced ... descriptions like Citrus are rather ideas
but something a (or in this case: many) developer(s) can start working
with.

> Even inside our team: even if Citrus is a good idea (which I'm not
> convinced about, but this is off-topic now), there could be better
> solutions for each element. This discussion sounds the same as the
> (thankfully dead) ribbon/not ribbon one. Because it's not a matter of
> changing the whole interface (that's the mistake Microsoft did, but
> that's according to theirs, not ours, model of business), it's a matter
> of enhancing small parts at each time.

Yep, and there are ideas / issues that can be addressed now ... but of
course an "80% stable solution concept" like Citrus helps to guide
(note: I'm also not fully sure if the whole Citrus concept fits yet, but
hopefully Mirek and his thoughts will be around).


> That leads to the question, what do we want from LibreOffice, often
> raised (Christoph mentions that again from the Paris conference -- miss
> the link now, sorry). We should discuss that instead of
> Citrus/Ribbon/any ready-magic solution.

Well, in Paris we've talked about the "vision" for LibreOffice in
general. That's something I'd love to discuss (and finally decide, but
don't know how yet - how to involve all stakeholders). I've already
pinged the members of the little group how to continue. Any wishes from
your (all) side?

Back to this list. I think that parts of the UI / workflows can be
improved nevertheless ... I'll better stop here, it surely gets
redundant ;-)

Andrew, do you have any special area of interest you'd like to
contribute?

Thanks Rafael!

Cheers,
Christoph




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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

>
> I don't think Citrus is a bad idea, on the whole. The problem with it is:
> they have been conceived as a whole. Things should look pretty, of course
> (my girlfriend loves LibreOffice, but my brother won't use it unless it
> looks better -- same story everywhere), but that's not our only concern: we
> already have a large userbase, and a way of how things work in the
> interface. You cannot simply change this overnight. But you know that.


our userbase FOR THE MAJORITY(I say it that way not to insult you or any
thing but to emphasize that I know that what I am about to say is not true
for ALL of our users but FOR THE MAJORIRY) are Open Source people who are
used to things changed every 6 months any way. besides Citrus is different,
but it is also exactly the same, and works just how you should expect it to.
I know that does not make since but that just the way it is.


> So, assuming you know that, this is not a matter of embracing Mirek's
> design or not, but whether to embrace it in each part. That's why there's
> is the UI_Elements [1] page: we should see them as parts, discuss one by one
> and find out if it's for better to change it or not.


if you look at the page you cited you will see that most of it
was purposed my Mirek's and only one thing was not. I asked the question to
see what people thought of Citrus. do people like it, do they hate it. yes
we need to take it apart and implement it one peace at a time. as you
pointed out I do know that it will take time. and implementing bits and
peaces is apart of that.


> Small changes are easier to do, to manage, to get used to (from a user and
> developer point of view), but most of all, it needs hacking, so you cannot
> go to devs and say: "this is how we would like the whole application to
> look". You have to take one small part and convince them that it would be
> important to change this one, because it would better this and that.


that is way the page that you and I have cited are separated into small
sections.  we do have to look at it as a hole kinda or else there will be
bits and peaces that look good and others that don't mach. when working on
them though yes you need to say "this part need changing next. here is how
it should look and work. can you do it."


> Even inside our team: even if Citrus is a good idea (which I'm not
> convinced about, but this is off-topic now), there could be better solutions
> for each element.


and Im sure that can be up for debate when we come across something that
people have a problem with. but at the same time it can not be messed with
too much or things will be inconsistent and not look or feel right.  I have
some problems with it too, I can not think of it right now but I do, I have
changed his mind on things too. so there is room for change with his design.


> This discussion sounds the same as the (thankfully dead) ribbon/not ribbon
> one. Because it's not a matter of changing the whole interface (that's the
> mistake Microsoft did, but that's according to theirs, not ours, model of
> business), it's a matter of enhancing small parts at each time.


small parts must be changed at a time, but the entire thing must be be
changed.


> That leads to the question, what do we want from LibreOffice, often raised
> (Christoph mentions that again from the Paris conference -- miss the link
> now, sorry). We should discuss that instead of Citrus/Ribbon/any ready-magic
> solution.


I don't know what Christoph mentioned, but why should we not discuss Citrus,
its the most complete and is what we have got. why should we not use it. I
liked ribbons and do not think that they are a bad idea, but I think that
Citrus is much better.

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Andrew Pullins Andrew Pullins
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

>
> From the user's point-of-view, that's absolutely true.
>


But its also true from the point of the developers - things have to be
> specified, coordinated, developed, tested, documented, ... so it needs
> to be done step by step anyway.


im in agreence that it needs to be done step by step but why can't you
change it all. every one that went from M$O 2003 to M$O 2007  had this BIG
change to deal with... and they are all useing M$O 2010 today. users can
handle change. the Devs need little projects to work on to get it done, but
that does not mean that the hole thing can not be changed.

Even if they are convinced ... descriptions like Citrus are rather ideasbut
> something a (or in this case: many) developer(s) can start  working with.


what???



> Yep, and there are ideas / issues that can be addressed now ... but of
> course an "80% stable solution concept" like Citrus helps to guide
> (note: I'm also not fully sure if the whole Citrus concept fits yet, but
> hopefully Mirek and his thoughts will be around).


I have not heard from Mirek in a while and was hoping that he would have
some things to say about this but when he is back you all can ask him stuff.
he was having trouble with internet or something.



> Well, in Paris we've talked about the "vision" for LibreOffice ingeneral.
> That's something I'd love to discuss (and finally decide, but
> don't know how yet - how to involve all stakeholders). I've already
> pinged the members of the little group how to continue. Any wishes from
> your (all) side?


where can I get things that went on in the conference. I know that you did a
summory and cited some presentations but other than that I don't know where
to go.


> Andrew, do you have any special area of interest you'd like to
> contribute?


I have been contributing with the Citrus mock ups for some time now. some of
my ideas have been sent to Mirek and he has liked and disliked them. I am
starting to do more specifically with calc because that is something that he
has not touched on at all, simply because he does not use it. I use it from
time to time and my brother uses it more so I though that I could help out
there.

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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

Hi Andrew, everyone,

> Yep, and there are ideas / issues that can be addressed now ... but of
> > course an "80% stable solution concept" like Citrus helps to guide
> > (note: I'm also not fully sure if the whole Citrus concept fits yet, but
> > hopefully Mirek and his thoughts will be around).
>
>
> I have not heard from Mirek in a while and was hoping that he would have
> some things to say about this but when he is back you all can ask him
> stuff.
> he was having trouble with internet or something.
>
> I don't really have any internet problems anymore, but I do have time
problems. I really have a very busy life right now and my priorities lie
elsewhere.

That said, if I do find the time to do so, I'll devote some time to Citrus
now and again, and if anyone has any questions about it, they're welcome to
post them.

@Andrew: Thanks for the support. I'm really glad you like Citrus.

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Andrew Pullins Andrew Pullins
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

Hi Mirek

I don't really have any internet problems anymore, but I do have time
> problems. I really have a very busy life right now and my priorities lie
> elsewhere.
>

I am glad to see that you got that taken care of. I have been wondering
where you have been for a while.

That said, if I do find the time to do so, I'll devote some time to Citrus
> now and again, and if anyone has any questions about it, they're welcome to
> post them.
>

I am working on some things, some of witch I have posted in our other email
thread. just tell me how I can help.

@Andrew: Thanks for the support. I'm really glad you like Citrus.


you are welcome.


Christoph and others, what about Citrus do you have a problem with. what do
you guys see that can be started on.
again we need to start on bits in peaces of the UI, so what can we start
working on. here [1][2] Mirek has started a mile
stone prosses with things that can be done soon.

[1]
http://clickortap.wordpress.com/citrus/roadmap/
[2]
http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/11/20/citrus-getting-there/

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Alexander Wilms Alexander Wilms
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

Hi,

I am looking forward to the redesign and I think we should start to
reorganize the menu items. That gives us some structure and the
underlying UI doesn't need to be changed immediately.

Alex

Am Do 27 Okt 2011 05:24:47 CEST schrieb Andrew Pullins:

> Hi Mirek
>
> I don't really have any internet problems anymore, but I do have time
>> problems. I really have a very busy life right now and my priorities lie
>> elsewhere.
>>
>
> I am glad to see that you got that taken care of. I have been wondering
> where you have been for a while.
>
> That said, if I do find the time to do so, I'll devote some time to Citrus
>> now and again, and if anyone has any questions about it, they're welcome to
>> post them.
>>
>
> I am working on some things, some of witch I have posted in our other email
> thread. just tell me how I can help.
>
> @Andrew: Thanks for the support. I'm really glad you like Citrus.
>
>
> you are welcome.
>
>
> Christoph and others, what about Citrus do you have a problem with. what do
> you guys see that can be started on.
> again we need to start on bits in peaces of the UI, so what can we start
> working on. here [1][2] Mirek has started a mile
> stone prosses with things that can be done soon.
>
> [1]
> http://clickortap.wordpress.com/citrus/roadmap/
> [2]
> http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/11/20/citrus-getting-there/
>




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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-design] APP/Online LibreOffice

In reply to this post by mirek2
Hi Mirek, all!

Am Mittwoch, den 26.10.2011, 18:43 +0200 schrieb Mirek M.:
[...]
> > I don't really have any internet problems anymore, but I do have time
> problems. I really have a very busy life right now and my priorities lie
> elsewhere.

I really hope that "time issues" do not relate to anything
problematic ... I hope you're just fine and can enjoy life. And if there
is a bit more time again, then it would be cool to have you around ...

> That said, if I do find the time to do so, I'll devote some time to Citrus
> now and again, and if anyone has any questions about it, they're welcome to
> post them.

Thanks for that offer! And - although it needs discussion here - thanks
for providing Citrus and all the fresh ideas.

Cheers,
Christoph


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