Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar out of Experimental

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Edoardo Maria Elidoro Edoardo Maria Elidoro
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar out of Experimental

I do agree to move the Notebookbar out of experimental.
The latest updates on the Tabbed Toolbar in the master branch improved both
the usability and the look & feel making it (in my opinion) a really useful
and nice feature to have.

I don't see a single reason why we should keep it in experimental.

Il giorno mar 6 nov 2018 alle ore 17:50 Pedro Rosmaninho <
[hidden email]> ha scritto:

> Just as a side note. I've been using the Tabbedbar in 6.1 Fresh release
> daily in my work on Windows 10.
> None of those open issues are something that affect the functionality of
> the Tabbed bar in daily use.
>
> - The chart editing toolbar issue is expecially annoying but it is also
> something that happens with the Standard Toolbars, since performing chart
> editing also replace the Standard Toolbar by the Cart Editing toolbar. If
> anything the Tabbedbar is *superior* in that regard because it remains
> visible when the chart editing toolbar is present.
>
> - As for MacOS glitches, I tried it on a MacOS VM and the issues are minor
> aesthetic issues that do not impact its functionality. In fact, there are
> far more serious glitches in LO on MacOS not related with the notebookbar
> that warrant more attention.
>
> So please lets move the Notebookbar out of experimental. The Groupedbars
> and Tabbedbars are in great shape.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 4:43 PM Pedro Rosmaninho <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Please, this would be amazing.
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 7:42 AM kainz.a <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I know the notebookbar implementation has bugs but it's under
> development
> >> since around 4 years and on each release the news pages wrote about this
> >> experimental feature.
> >>
> >> I talked at Munich Hackfest about the big open bugs
> >> - bad keyboard navigation
> >> you can use F6 like in every other LibO app (F6 switch from Menubar to
> >> Toolbar to NB to Sidebar), but it would be awesome if
> >> svtlo-ManagedMenuButton will support keyboard shortcut focus if menubar
> is
> >> hidden and also sfxlo-NotebookbarToolBox widgets which was used to add
> the
> >> different uno commands didn't work with F6 -> tab
> >> I hope to get some patches to fix this issue, you are welcome to help.
> >>
> >> - chart didn't support NB
> >> the chart bug (if you open an chart in writer you see the notebookbar
> and
> >> the toolbar) can be fixed by add an NB to chart module (which I can do)
> >> and
> >> use this NB instead of the chart toolbar. But there is no progress in
> this
> >> change cause chart if different from other modules.
> >>
> >> - OS-X glitches
> >> on OS-X there are several UI issues. I don't have an Mac so I can't say
> to
> >> much.
> >>
> >> The biggest issue is that there is NO developer working on the NB stuff.
> >> We
> >> talk each release to bring NB out of experimental. As there is no real
> >> progress (excluding the ui files) I recommend to bring some
> >> implementations
> >> (tabbed, groupedbar) ouf of experimental for 6.2. Than we get more user
> >> feedback and maybe some new developers.
> >>
> >> cheers
> >> Andreas_K
> >>
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Nigel Verity Nigel Verity
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Re: Notebookbar out of Experimental

Hi

I am a newcomer to the LibreOffice marketing group so, first, greetings to everybody.

Now that the Notebook bar is no longer going to be an experimental feature perhaps the question of the default setting needs to be addressed.

When encouraging somebody to migrate from MS Office, if the first configuration they see is the classic menu bar then I can well imagine the reaction being that LO is "old fashioned". Defaulting to the Notebookbar should create an instant feeling of familiarity for such users. However, if that were to become the default we would be reinforcing the sense that LO is an MS Office clone, without emphasising the configurability advantage that LO has.

A lot of people still prefer the classic menu bar and find it far more intuitive. I am one of them. Perhaps on first run after installation the user could be presented with a welcome screen which illustrates the visual differences between the two menu types, and allows the user to select one or the other to be their personal default from that point onwards.

Just a thought.

Nige


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Sreekanth V K Sreekanth V K
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Re: Notebookbar out of Experimental

+1 Nigel Verity. The illustration may appeal to a lot of people. I know a lot of people see LO suite is "old-fashioned"

I am using Notebook bar for a long time now and it works fine for me. I am not sure if the developers see some hidden problem with it for keeping it experimental.


Sincerely,
Sreekanth V K

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‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Friday, November 9, 2018 5:53 PM, Nigel Verity <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I am a newcomer to the LibreOffice marketing group so, first, greetings to everybody.
>
> Now that the Notebook bar is no longer going to be an experimental feature perhaps the question of the default setting needs to be addressed.
>
> When encouraging somebody to migrate from MS Office, if the first configuration they see is the classic menu bar then I can well imagine the reaction being that LO is "old fashioned". Defaulting to the Notebookbar should create an instant feeling of familiarity for such users. However, if that were to become the default we would be reinforcing the sense that LO is an MS Office clone, without emphasising the configurability advantage that LO has.
>
> A lot of people still prefer the classic menu bar and find it far more intuitive. I am one of them. Perhaps on first run after installation the user could be presented with a welcome screen which illustrates the visual differences between the two menu types, and allows the user to select one or the other to be their personal default from that point onwards.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Nige
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Notebookbar out of Experimental

In reply to this post by Nigel Verity
Hi,

Nigel Verity wrote on 11/9/18 1:23 PM:

> A lot of people still prefer the classic menu bar and find it far
> more intuitive. I am one of them. Perhaps on first run after
> installation the user could be presented with a welcome screen which
> illustrates the visual differences between the two menu types, and
> allows the user to select one or the other to be their personal
> default from that point onwards.

There are indeed two ideas to do something like this:
 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69042
 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89660

Cheers,

Cor

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kainz.a kainz.a
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Re: Notebookbar out of Experimental

Hi,

I get the information yesterday that I can move Notebookbar out of
experimental (at least for beta and RC), BUT not all notebookbars are
finished (only tabbed) and I don't want to "release" something that is not
finished and than I get bad feedback for cotextual notebookbar or tabbed
compact, ...

So I have to first finish groupedbar and groupedbar_compact to make them
available without experimental mode.

cheers
Andreas_K

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Mike Saunders Mike Saunders
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Re: Notebookbar out of Experimental

In reply to this post by Nigel Verity
First, hello Nige and welcome to the community :-)

On the topic of the Notebookbar being default, I personally think that's
not something we should do on the first release after making it
non-experimental. If anything, we could have it available to everyone in
6.2, 6.3 and 6.4, then consider it as default for 7.0...

On 09/11/2018 13:23, Nigel Verity wrote:
>
> A lot of people still prefer the classic menu bar and find it far more intuitive. I am one of them. Perhaps on first run after installation the user could be presented with a welcome screen which illustrates the visual differences between the two menu types, and allows the user to select one or the other to be their personal default from that point onwards.

That would be good, but it MUST be easy to switch between them. If
someone chooses the Notebookbar but then wants to go back to the
"classic" interface, it must be extremely obvious. Otherwise the amount
of complaints we'll get on social media, info@ and download@ will go
through the roof :-)

Also, a big thanks as always to Andreas K for working on this.

Mike

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kainz.a kainz.a
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Re: Notebookbar out of Experimental

Instead of the default discussion I would prefer an user information.

Am Fr., 9. Nov. 2018, 15:04 hat Mike Saunders <
[hidden email]> geschrieben:

> First, hello Nige and welcome to the community :-)
>
> On the topic of the Notebookbar being default, I personally think that's
> not something we should do on the first release after making it
> non-experimental. If anything, we could have it available to everyone in
> 6.2, 6.3 and 6.4, then consider it as default for 7.0...
>
> On 09/11/2018 13:23, Nigel Verity wrote:
> >
> > A lot of people still prefer the classic menu bar and find it far more
> intuitive. I am one of them. Perhaps on first run after installation the
> user could be presented with a welcome screen which illustrates the visual
> differences between the two menu types, and allows the user to select one
> or the other to be their personal default from that point onwards.
>
> That would be good, but it MUST be easy to switch between them. If
> someone chooses the Notebookbar but then wants to go back to the
> "classic" interface, it must be extremely obvious. Otherwise the amount
> of complaints we'll get on social media, info@ and download@ will go
> through the roof :-)
>
> Also, a big thanks as always to Andreas K for working on this.
>
> Mike
>
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Edoardo Maria Elidoro Edoardo Maria Elidoro
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Re: Notebookbar out of Experimental

>  Instead of the default discussion I would prefer an user information.
Yeah, I do agree.
Let's first make it available for all the users and get some feedback on
it, then we can discuss about the default options.

Il giorno ven 9 nov 2018 alle ore 15:15 kainz.a <[hidden email]> ha
scritto:

> Instead of the default discussion I would prefer an user information.
>
> Am Fr., 9. Nov. 2018, 15:04 hat Mike Saunders <
> [hidden email]> geschrieben:
>
> > First, hello Nige and welcome to the community :-)
> >
> > On the topic of the Notebookbar being default, I personally think that's
> > not something we should do on the first release after making it
> > non-experimental. If anything, we could have it available to everyone in
> > 6.2, 6.3 and 6.4, then consider it as default for 7.0...
> >
> > On 09/11/2018 13:23, Nigel Verity wrote:
> > >
> > > A lot of people still prefer the classic menu bar and find it far more
> > intuitive. I am one of them. Perhaps on first run after installation the
> > user could be presented with a welcome screen which illustrates the
> visual
> > differences between the two menu types, and allows the user to select one
> > or the other to be their personal default from that point onwards.
> >
> > That would be good, but it MUST be easy to switch between them. If
> > someone chooses the Notebookbar but then wants to go back to the
> > "classic" interface, it must be extremely obvious. Otherwise the amount
> > of complaints we'll get on social media, info@ and download@ will go
> > through the roof :-)
> >
> > Also, a big thanks as always to Andreas K for working on this.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> > Problems?
> > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/
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> >
>
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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Notebookbar out of Experimental

In reply to this post by kainz.a
Hi Andreas,

kainz.a wrote on 11/9/18 2:52 PM:

> I get the information yesterday that I can move Notebookbar out of
> experimental (at least for beta and RC), BUT not all notebookbars are

Good news!

> finished (only tabbed) and I don't want to "release" something that is not
> finished and than I get bad feedback for cotextual notebookbar or tabbed
> compact, ...
>
> So I have to first finish groupedbar and groupedbar_compact to make them
> available without experimental mode.

Thanks a lot for your work on this!
It's a great and unique UI tooling that LibreOffice is offering here.
I'm particularly impressed by how you manage to integrate so many wishes :)

Cheers,
Cor

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