Reply settings on this list have changed

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
19 messages Options
Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Reply settings on this list have changed

Hello,

this is to inform you that the reply settings on this list have changed
(so-called "Reply to mangling" has been disabled).

So far, e-mails had set a reply-to the mailing list address. In other
words, with any e-mail client, replies to e-mails on the list were
automatically sent directly to the list.

In the past, this lead to two major problems:

1. Several times, people have sent direct replies to the public list,
where deleting them is nearly impossible. I remember at least one case
where confidential information has been sent out that caused lots of
worries for the sender and his employer. This happened because people
hit "reply" and thought it would reply to the sender only.

2. I have heard complaints in the past from people, stating that working
with the non-developer lists of LibreOffice is a pain for them, because
of reply-to mangling, resulting in a lack of communication. This also
led to the fact that numerous tasks were done by the same people, who
needed to spend more and more time, instead of sharing the work burden
with others. While I do not fully believe this argument, there's just
one way to find out...

Therefore, I have applied a change:

Replies to e-mails from the list now only go to the original sender. You
either need to use the "reply to all" feature of your e-mail program, or
- preferably - the "reply to list"/"reply to group" feature, which will
direct replies directly to the list.

This is common practice on most mailing lists, and even the default
setting for our mailing list software, so we did not re-invent the wheel
here. Those seeking for details should have a look at
http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

I know we had numerous discussions on this topic in the past, but the
outcome was that roughly 50% were for this change, and 50% refused it,
so I am really sitting between two chairs here, for which I beg for your
understanding. On the one hand, those complaining the lists are unusable
with reply-to mangling, on the other hand, those complaining the lists
are unusable without reply-to mangling. Unfortunately, combining those
two, even on a per-recipient basis, is not possible, so they are
mutually exclusive to each other.

In order to find out the real impact, I simply changed the setting, and
again, I beg for your understanding.

Do not worry: The mailing lists are for the community, so it's the
community deciding how they should work. What I'd like to ask all of you
is to try out for a few days if that change is good for each list or
not. Should we find out it is more harmful than it helps, I will
immediately switch back to the old behaviour.

Sorry for this short notice, and I beg for your understanding that I'm
somehow sitting between two chairs here.

Florian

--
Florian Effenberger, Chairman of the Board (Vorstandsvorsitzender)
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Andrew Douglas Pitonyak Andrew Douglas Pitonyak
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed


I was not aware that any list existed that did not use "reply mangling"
so that the reply (by default) went back to the list.... Will be
interested to see what occurs.



On 08/12/2012 12:26 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote:

> Hello,
>
> this is to inform you that the reply settings on this list have
> changed (so-called "Reply to mangling" has been disabled).
>
> So far, e-mails had set a reply-to the mailing list address. In other
> words, with any e-mail client, replies to e-mails on the list were
> automatically sent directly to the list.
>
> In the past, this lead to two major problems:
>
> 1. Several times, people have sent direct replies to the public list,
> where deleting them is nearly impossible. I remember at least one case
> where confidential information has been sent out that caused lots of
> worries for the sender and his employer. This happened because people
> hit "reply" and thought it would reply to the sender only.
>
> 2. I have heard complaints in the past from people, stating that
> working with the non-developer lists of LibreOffice is a pain for
> them, because of reply-to mangling, resulting in a lack of
> communication. This also led to the fact that numerous tasks were done
> by the same people, who needed to spend more and more time, instead of
> sharing the work burden with others. While I do not fully believe this
> argument, there's just one way to find out...
>
> Therefore, I have applied a change:
>
> Replies to e-mails from the list now only go to the original sender.
> You either need to use the "reply to all" feature of your e-mail
> program, or - preferably - the "reply to list"/"reply to group"
> feature, which will direct replies directly to the list.
>
> This is common practice on most mailing lists, and even the default
> setting for our mailing list software, so we did not re-invent the
> wheel here. Those seeking for details should have a look at
> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
>
> I know we had numerous discussions on this topic in the past, but the
> outcome was that roughly 50% were for this change, and 50% refused it,
> so I am really sitting between two chairs here, for which I beg for
> your understanding. On the one hand, those complaining the lists are
> unusable with reply-to mangling, on the other hand, those complaining
> the lists are unusable without reply-to mangling. Unfortunately,
> combining those two, even on a per-recipient basis, is not possible,
> so they are mutually exclusive to each other.
>
> In order to find out the real impact, I simply changed the setting,
> and again, I beg for your understanding.
>
> Do not worry: The mailing lists are for the community, so it's the
> community deciding how they should work. What I'd like to ask all of
> you is to try out for a few days if that change is good for each list
> or not. Should we find out it is more harmful than it helps, I will
> immediately switch back to the old behaviour.
>
> Sorry for this short notice, and I beg for your understanding that I'm
> somehow sitting between two chairs here.
>
> Florian
>

--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Tony Pursell Tony Pursell
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

Florian,

On 13 August 2012 02:21, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <[hidden email]>wrote:

>
> I was not aware that any list existed that did not use "reply mangling" so
> that the reply (by default) went back to the list.... Will be interested to
> see what occurs.
>
>
>
>
> On 08/12/2012 12:26 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> this is to inform you that the reply settings on this list have changed
>> (so-called "Reply to mangling" has been disabled).
>>
>> So far, e-mails had set a reply-to the mailing list address. In other
>> words, with any e-mail client, replies to e-mails on the list were
>> automatically sent directly to the list.
>>
>> In the past, this lead to two major problems:
>>
>> 1. Several times, people have sent direct replies to the public list,
>> where deleting them is nearly impossible. I remember at least one case
>> where confidential information has been sent out that caused lots of
>> worries for the sender and his employer. This happened because people hit
>> "reply" and thought it would reply to the sender only.
>>
>> 2. I have heard complaints in the past from people, stating that working
>> with the non-developer lists of LibreOffice is a pain for them, because of
>> reply-to mangling, resulting in a lack of communication. This also led to
>> the fact that numerous tasks were done by the same people, who needed to
>> spend more and more time, instead of sharing the work burden with others.
>> While I do not fully believe this argument, there's just one way to find
>> out...
>>
>> Therefore, I have applied a change:
>>
>> Replies to e-mails from the list now only go to the original sender. You
>> either need to use the "reply to all" feature of your e-mail program, or -
>> preferably - the "reply to list"/"reply to group" feature, which will
>> direct replies directly to the list.
>>
>> This is common practice on most mailing lists, and even the default
>> setting for our mailing list software, so we did not re-invent the wheel
>> here. Those seeking for details should have a look at
>> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
>>
>> I know we had numerous discussions on this topic in the past, but the
>> outcome was that roughly 50% were for this change, and 50% refused it, so I
>> am really sitting between two chairs here, for which I beg for your
>> understanding. On the one hand, those complaining the lists are unusable
>> with reply-to mangling, on the other hand, those complaining the lists are
>> unusable without reply-to mangling. Unfortunately, combining those two,
>> even on a per-recipient basis, is not possible, so they are mutually
>> exclusive to each other.
>>
>> In order to find out the real impact, I simply changed the setting, and
>> again, I beg for your understanding.
>>
>> Do not worry: The mailing lists are for the community, so it's the
>> community deciding how they should work. What I'd like to ask all of you is
>> to try out for a few days if that change is good for each list or not.
>> Should we find out it is more harmful than it helps, I will immediately
>> switch back to the old behaviour.
>>
>> Sorry for this short notice, and I beg for your understanding that I'm
>> somehow sitting between two chairs here.
>>
>> Florian
>>
>>
> I will find this a real pain.  I use Gmail, which seems to only have Reply
and Reply to All.  There is no Reply to List.  So to send this back to the
list I have to Reply to All, remove Andrew from the To box, and Cut and
Paste the list address from the CC box.  If I do not do this, Andrew will
get my message twice.

Please put it back the way it was,

Tony

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Tony Pursell Tony Pursell
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

On 13 August 2012 09:58, Michael Meeks <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Mon, 2012-08-13 at 08:14 +0100, Tony Pursell wrote:
> >  I will find this a real pain.  I use Gmail, which seems to only have
> Reply
> > and Reply to All.  There is no Reply to List.  So to send this back to
> the
> > list I have to Reply to All, remove Andrew from the To box, and Cut and
> > Paste the list address from the CC box.  If I do not do this, Andrew will
> > get my message twice.
>
>         But getting the mail twice is a feature :-) that means you can
> filter
> the bulk mailing list traffic out to a folder, and still have personally
> addressed copies of responses to your posts in interesting threads :-)
> [as Florian says, there is no clearly right decision here].
>
>         ATB,
>
>                 Michael.
>
> --
> [hidden email]  <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot
>
>
But the point here is that I am replying to the discussion in general, and
not to Andrew's point, so an extra copy to Andrew would have been
pointless.

Tony

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Friedrich Strohmaier Friedrich Strohmaier
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

In reply to this post by Florian Effenberger
Hi Florian, *,

Am 12.08.2012 18:26 schrieb Florian Effenberger:

> this is to inform you that the reply settings on this list have
> changed (so-called "Reply to mangling" has been disabled).

> So far, e-mails had set a reply-to the mailing list address. In other
> words, with any e-mail client, replies to e-mails on the list were
> automatically sent directly to the list.

> In the past, this lead to two major problems:

[.. pro and cons of reply-to mangling - separate topic ..]

> Therefore, I have applied a change:

[.. more pro and cons of reply-to mangling - separate topic ..]

> In order to find out the real impact, I simply changed the setting,
> and again, I beg for your understanding.

we already discussed that October til December 2011:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.moderators/220
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss/7433
kind of resume by me:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss/7433/focus=7495

I noticed several people objecting against that change, each having "man
years" of commuinity work on their backs.

So this is a good point to hook in:
How do we handle changes affecting hundreds or even thousands of
community members?

Three questions from my side:
 - what was the final push to do this change *right now*?
 - what were the thoughts to do the change *this way*?
 - what was the criteria of balancing the effects between change and no
   change (not the ones *this* behaviour or *that* behaviour)?

> Do not worry: The mailing lists are for the community, so it's the
> community deciding how they should work. What I'd like to ask all of
> you is to try out for a few days if that change is good for each list
> or not. Should we find out it is more harmful than it helps, I will
> immediately switch back to the old behaviour.

I still can't see the problem this "test" should solve, which wouldn't
need additional work on, to be solved reliably.

> Sorry for this short notice, and I beg for your understanding that I'm
> somehow sitting between two chairs here.

Stop doing things You're sorry about. ;o))


Gruß/regards
--
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

Hi All,

Friedrich Strohmaier wrote (13-08-12 15:21)

>> this is to inform you that the reply settings on this list have
>> changed (so-called "Reply to mangling" has been disabled).
>
>> So far, e-mails had set a reply-to the mailing list address. In other
>> words, with any e-mail client, replies to e-mails on the list were
>> automatically sent directly to the list.
>
>> In the past, this lead to two major problems:
>
> [.. pro and cons of reply-to mangling - separate topic ..]
>
>> Therefore, I have applied a change:
>
> [.. more pro and cons of reply-to mangling - separate topic ..]

I see it happen already - and should have realised before - that with
lists for users, often people with less technical focus, this will lead
to a lot of extra communication, confusion. I think the primary users of
those lists will benefit from the old behaviour.

For all other lists, I'm not going to spend any energy on weighting pros
and cons ;-)

Cheers

--
  - Cor
  - http://nl.libreoffice.org
  - www.librelex.org


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

In reply to this post by Friedrich Strohmaier
Hi,

Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2012-08-13 15:21:
>   - what was the final push to do this change*right now*?
>   - what were the thoughts to do the change*this way*?
>   - what was the criteria of balancing the effects between change and no
>     change (not the ones*this*  behaviour or*that*  behaviour)?

that's easy.

I right now work basically full time for TDF, but I really have to work
on my "real" life. Spending hours per day on TDF doesn't allow too much
other real life, so a change here is needed. Urgently. I didn't have any
free weekend for months. When I tried to involve others, especially
developers, I (too) often heard the argument that they don't follow the
lists because of their respective configuration. However, if you don't
want to burn me, we *urgently* need to get more people involved, since
my day only has 24 hours, and I also need to work on some some other
things besides TDF.

It simply is a try if people now, that the change has been done, indeed
would jump on the lists, or if this was a false argument. Discussion
lead to nowhere, and even now, we receive very contrary feedback - some
people hate the change, others are in full favor of it. So, indeed,
discussing it over and over again doesn't change anything, and IMHO, the
best way to give it a try is by doing it.

Call it selfish, but if you spend hours a day working on TDF matters,
and you hear the argument that people would do much more if the lists
were configured the right way - would you give it a try? Discussing does
not help me in any way...

Florian

--
Florian Effenberger, Chairman of the Board (Vorstandsvorsitzender)
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Tanstaafl Tanstaafl
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

In reply to this post by Florian Effenberger
On 2012-08-12 12:26 PM, Florian Effenberger
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I know we had numerous discussions on this topic in the past, but the
> outcome was that roughly 50% were for this change, and 50% refused it,
> so I am really sitting between two chairs here, for which I beg for your
> understanding. On the one hand, those complaining the lists are unusable
> with reply-to mangling, on the other hand, those complaining the lists
> are unusable without reply-to mangling. Unfortunately, combining those
> two, even on a per-recipient basis, is not possible, so they are
> mutually exclusive to each other.
>
> In order to find out the real impact, I simply changed the setting, and
> again, I beg for your understanding.

The ideal would be a way for this setting to be per user...

I'm fairly sure the new Mailman3 will allow this... and there are lots
more reasons to migrate once it is released/stable as well.

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Johnny Rosenberg Johnny Rosenberg
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

In reply to this post by Tony Pursell
2012/8/13 Tony Pursell <[hidden email]>:

> Florian,
>
> On 13 August 2012 02:21, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>>
>> I was not aware that any list existed that did not use "reply mangling" so
>> that the reply (by default) went back to the list.... Will be interested to
>> see what occurs.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 08/12/2012 12:26 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> this is to inform you that the reply settings on this list have changed
>>> (so-called "Reply to mangling" has been disabled).
>>>
>>> So far, e-mails had set a reply-to the mailing list address. In other
>>> words, with any e-mail client, replies to e-mails on the list were
>>> automatically sent directly to the list.
>>>
>>> In the past, this lead to two major problems:
>>>
>>> 1. Several times, people have sent direct replies to the public list,
>>> where deleting them is nearly impossible. I remember at least one case
>>> where confidential information has been sent out that caused lots of
>>> worries for the sender and his employer. This happened because people hit
>>> "reply" and thought it would reply to the sender only.
>>>
>>> 2. I have heard complaints in the past from people, stating that working
>>> with the non-developer lists of LibreOffice is a pain for them, because of
>>> reply-to mangling, resulting in a lack of communication. This also led to
>>> the fact that numerous tasks were done by the same people, who needed to
>>> spend more and more time, instead of sharing the work burden with others.
>>> While I do not fully believe this argument, there's just one way to find
>>> out...
>>>
>>> Therefore, I have applied a change:
>>>
>>> Replies to e-mails from the list now only go to the original sender. You
>>> either need to use the "reply to all" feature of your e-mail program, or -
>>> preferably - the "reply to list"/"reply to group" feature, which will
>>> direct replies directly to the list.
>>>
>>> This is common practice on most mailing lists, and even the default
>>> setting for our mailing list software, so we did not re-invent the wheel
>>> here. Those seeking for details should have a look at
>>> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
>>>
>>> I know we had numerous discussions on this topic in the past, but the
>>> outcome was that roughly 50% were for this change, and 50% refused it, so I
>>> am really sitting between two chairs here, for which I beg for your
>>> understanding. On the one hand, those complaining the lists are unusable
>>> with reply-to mangling, on the other hand, those complaining the lists are
>>> unusable without reply-to mangling. Unfortunately, combining those two,
>>> even on a per-recipient basis, is not possible, so they are mutually
>>> exclusive to each other.
>>>
>>> In order to find out the real impact, I simply changed the setting, and
>>> again, I beg for your understanding.
>>>
>>> Do not worry: The mailing lists are for the community, so it's the
>>> community deciding how they should work. What I'd like to ask all of you is
>>> to try out for a few days if that change is good for each list or not.
>>> Should we find out it is more harmful than it helps, I will immediately
>>> switch back to the old behaviour.
>>>
>>> Sorry for this short notice, and I beg for your understanding that I'm
>>> somehow sitting between two chairs here.
>>>
>>> Florian
>>>
>>>
>> I will find this a real pain.  I use Gmail, which seems to only have Reply
> and Reply to All.  There is no Reply to List.  So to send this back to the
> list I have to Reply to All, remove Andrew from the To box, and Cut and
> Paste the list address from the CC box.  If I do not do this, Andrew will
> get my message twice.
>
> Please put it back the way it was,
>
> Tony
>
I use Gmail too and it seems like you don't have to cut and paste
anything. Seems to be OK to leave the address in ”CC: and to leave
””To:” empty. That's what I'm doing right now, hope it works…

So I click ”Reply to all” (which requires a click more than just
replying), then I delete everything in ”To:”, write my message and hit
”Send”. Not very quick, though. I want the old behaviour back. There
is no way to idiot proof anyway.


Kind regards

Johnny Rosenberg
ジョニー・ローゼンバーグ

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
marcpare4 marcpare4
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

Hi Johnny,

Le 2012-08-13 15:47, Johnny Rosenberg a écrit :

> I use Gmail too and it seems like you don't have to cut and paste
> anything. Seems to be OK to leave the address in ”CC: and to leave
> ””To:” empty. That's what I'm doing right now, hope it works…
>
> So I click ”Reply to all” (which requires a click more than just
> replying), then I delete everything in ”To:”, write my message and hit
> ”Send”. Not very quick, though. I want the old behaviour back. There
> is no way to idiot proof anyway.
>
>
> Kind regards
>
> Johnny Rosenberg
> ジョニー・ローゼンバーグ
>

Does it not says "Reply to group" on the bottom of the message in GMail?

Cheers,

Marc

--
Marc Paré
[hidden email]
http://www.parEntreprise.com
parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Volker Merschmann Volker Merschmann
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

Hi Marc,

2012/8/14 Marc Paré <[hidden email]>:

> Le 2012-08-13 15:47, Johnny Rosenberg a écrit :
>> I use Gmail too and it seems like you don't have to cut and paste
>> anything. Seems to be OK to leave the address in ”CC: and to leave
>> ””To:” empty. That's what I'm doing right now, hope it works…
>>
>> So I click ”Reply to all” (which requires a click more than just
>> replying), then I delete everything in ”To:”, write my message and hit
>> ”Send”. Not very quick, though. I want the old behaviour back. There
>> is no way to idiot proof anyway.
>>
>>
>
> Does it not says "Reply to group" on the bottom of the message in GMail?
>
No, sadly not.

Volker
--
Volker Merschmann
Member of The Document Foundation
http://www.documentfoundation.org

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

Hi Volker, *,

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Volker Merschmann
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2012/8/14 Marc Paré <[hidden email]>:
>> Le 2012-08-13 15:47, Johnny Rosenberg a écrit :
>>>
>>> So I click ”Reply to all” (which requires a click more than just
>>> replying),

In my version of gmail (in chromium browser), there is no difference
in number of clicks for reply and reply all.

Only if it is no the most recent one, but even then it is not a big
deal, as you can just use the reply button and then switch to reply
all in the message-composing-area. (don't have to open the
message-menu of the message you want to reply to.

>>> then I delete everything in ”To:”, write my message and hit

Just don't do this!
The whole point in not messing with the reply-to header is that the
message goes to everyone in the message thread.

This is what the developers want!

They don't want to have to be subscribed (since they already receive
enough mail to deal with). They want to be able to send a request for
feedback to the list and receive the replies without the need to
subscribe first or to check mail-archives.

Also it won't help moderated user-requests if you remove them. If
people don't subscribe but send a request to the list, then the list
receives the answer, but not the person who asked.

Just leave all people in the loop.

It is much easier for people to delete duplicated messages (gmail
collapses them  anyway/you don't see duplicates at all) than having to
hunt for replies when they are not subscribed.

>> Does it not says "Reply to group" on the bottom of the message in GMail?
>>
> No, sadly not.

It does say "reply to all" for the last message in the conversation,
and also in the message-editing view (given that there are multiple
addresses in the message already)

So:
Don't use "reply only to list" please, use "reply to all"

ciao
Christian

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

marcpare4 marcpare4
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

In reply to this post by Florian Effenberger
Hi Florian

Le 2012-08-12 12:26, Florian Effenberger a écrit :
> Hello,
>
> this is to inform you that the reply settings on this list have changed
> (so-called "Reply to mangling" has been disabled).
>
> So far, e-mails had set a reply-to the mailing list address. In other
> words, with any e-mail client, replies to e-mails on the list were
> automatically sent directly to the list.

BTW and FYI ... users on Gmane, the option to "reply" is sent to the
list. I'm on Thunderbird v.10.0.06 ESR

Cheers,

Marc


--
Marc Paré
[hidden email]
http://www.parEntreprise.com
parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Stefan Weigel Stefan Weigel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

In reply to this post by Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
Hallo Christian,

Am 14.08.2012 19:13, schrieb Christian Lohmaier:

> The whole point in not messing with the reply-to header is that
> the message goes to everyone in the message thread.
>
> This is what the developers want!
>
> They don't want to have to be subscribed (since they already
> receive enough mail to deal with). They want to be able to send a
> request for feedback to the list and receive the replies without
> the need to subscribe first or to check mail-archives.

Does this really make sense? The sender of the request would only
receive those mails, that are a direct response to his question.

But, if one sends a request to a mailing list, this usually
initiates a thread of answers and answers to answers and answers to
answers to answers... Mostly, the whole thread contains important
feedback for the initial poster. So, if someone really wants
feedback from a mailing list, he must subscribe or at least watch
the archive.

Cheers,
Stefan

--
LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir!

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

Hi Stefan, *,

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Stefan Weigel
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Am 14.08.2012 19:13, schrieb Christian Lohmaier:
>> [...]
>> They don't want to have to be subscribed (since they already
>> receive enough mail to deal with). They want to be able to send a
>> request for feedback to the list and receive the replies without
>> the need to subscribe first or to check mail-archives.
>
> Does this really make sense? The sender of the request would only
> receive those mails, that are a direct response to his question.

Not only direct repsonses, but all responses that keep using "reply to all".
Only if someone breaks this by replying only to the list, the initial
poster won't receive replies starting with that mail anymore.

A writes to list
B replies to list & A
C replies to posting of B that now goes to A, B & the list
D replies to posting from B, but only sends to list. A won't recieve
that copy if not subscribed.
E replies to posting to D, A won't receive that copy if not subscribed
(and E doesn't add A manaully)

ciao
Christian

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

NoOp NoOp
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

In reply to this post by Tony Pursell
On 08/13/2012 02:32 AM, Tony Pursell wrote:

> On 13 August 2012 09:58, Michael Meeks <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Mon, 2012-08-13 at 08:14 +0100, Tony Pursell wrote:
>> >  I will find this a real pain.  I use Gmail, which seems to only have
>> Reply
>> > and Reply to All.  There is no Reply to List.  So to send this back to
>> the
>> > list I have to Reply to All, remove Andrew from the To box, and Cut and
>> > Paste the list address from the CC box.  If I do not do this, Andrew will
>> > get my message twice.
>>
>>         But getting the mail twice is a feature :-) that means you can
>> filter
>> the bulk mailing list traffic out to a folder, and still have personally
>> addressed copies of responses to your posts in interesting threads :-)
>> [as Florian says, there is no clearly right decision here].
>>
>>         ATB,
>>
>>                 Michael.
>>
>> --
>> [hidden email]  <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot
>>
>>
> But the point here is that I am replying to the discussion in general, and
> not to Andrew's point, so an extra copy to Andrew would have been
> pointless.
>
> Tony
>

Interesting... It appears that Mr. Meeks replied to your post directly
and did not cc this list in the process. I wonder if this was on
purpose, or if Mr. Meeks forgot to hit the "Reply to List" (or in the
case of Evolution, 'Group Reply|Reply to List'/Ctrl-L) button...



--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Stefan Weigel Stefan Weigel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

In reply to this post by Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
Hi Christian,

Am 15.08.2012 00:09, schrieb Christian Lohmaier:

>> Does this really make sense? The sender of the request would only
>> receive those mails, that are a direct response to his question.
>
> Not only direct repsonses, but all responses that keep using "reply to all".
> Only if someone breaks this by replying only to the list, the initial
> poster won't receive replies starting with that mail anymore.

True.

Stefan

--
LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir!

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Stefan Weigel Stefan Weigel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

In reply to this post by Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
Hi Christian,

nochmal anders ;-)

Am 14.08.2012 19:13, schrieb Christian Lohmaier:

> The whole point in not messing with the reply-to header is that the
> message goes to everyone in the message thread.
>
> This is what the developers want!
>
> They don't want to have to be subscribed (since they already receive
> enough mail to deal with). They want to be able to send a request for
> feedback to the list and receive the replies without the need to
> subscribe first or to check mail-archives.

Okay. But, if this is the main point, we currently still miss it.

Currently, without header mangling, people normally use the button
"Reply to List", if there is one. You still have to be subscribed or
you need to watch the archive, if you want to track answers to your
posting.

Stefan


--
LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir!

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Andrew Douglas Pitonyak Andrew Douglas Pitonyak
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reply settings on this list have changed

In reply to this post by Tony Pursell
And now I know why I have had so many double responses.... and then I
was not sure which one I should reply to

  :-)


On 08/13/2012 03:14 AM, Tony Pursell wrote:

> Florian,
>
> On 13 August 2012 02:21, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> I was not aware that any list existed that did not use "reply mangling" so
>> that the reply (by default) went back to the list.... Will be interested to
>> see what occurs.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 08/12/2012 12:26 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> this is to inform you that the reply settings on this list have changed
>>> (so-called "Reply to mangling" has been disabled).
>>>
>>> So far, e-mails had set a reply-to the mailing list address. In other
>>> words, with any e-mail client, replies to e-mails on the list were
>>> automatically sent directly to the list.
>>>
>>> In the past, this lead to two major problems:
>>>
>>> 1. Several times, people have sent direct replies to the public list,
>>> where deleting them is nearly impossible. I remember at least one case
>>> where confidential information has been sent out that caused lots of
>>> worries for the sender and his employer. This happened because people hit
>>> "reply" and thought it would reply to the sender only.
>>>
>>> 2. I have heard complaints in the past from people, stating that working
>>> with the non-developer lists of LibreOffice is a pain for them, because of
>>> reply-to mangling, resulting in a lack of communication. This also led to
>>> the fact that numerous tasks were done by the same people, who needed to
>>> spend more and more time, instead of sharing the work burden with others.
>>> While I do not fully believe this argument, there's just one way to find
>>> out...
>>>
>>> Therefore, I have applied a change:
>>>
>>> Replies to e-mails from the list now only go to the original sender. You
>>> either need to use the "reply to all" feature of your e-mail program, or -
>>> preferably - the "reply to list"/"reply to group" feature, which will
>>> direct replies directly to the list.
>>>
>>> This is common practice on most mailing lists, and even the default
>>> setting for our mailing list software, so we did not re-invent the wheel
>>> here. Those seeking for details should have a look at
>>> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
>>>
>>> I know we had numerous discussions on this topic in the past, but the
>>> outcome was that roughly 50% were for this change, and 50% refused it, so I
>>> am really sitting between two chairs here, for which I beg for your
>>> understanding. On the one hand, those complaining the lists are unusable
>>> with reply-to mangling, on the other hand, those complaining the lists are
>>> unusable without reply-to mangling. Unfortunately, combining those two,
>>> even on a per-recipient basis, is not possible, so they are mutually
>>> exclusive to each other.
>>>
>>> In order to find out the real impact, I simply changed the setting, and
>>> again, I beg for your understanding.
>>>
>>> Do not worry: The mailing lists are for the community, so it's the
>>> community deciding how they should work. What I'd like to ask all of you is
>>> to try out for a few days if that change is good for each list or not.
>>> Should we find out it is more harmful than it helps, I will immediately
>>> switch back to the old behaviour.
>>>
>>> Sorry for this short notice, and I beg for your understanding that I'm
>>> somehow sitting between two chairs here.
>>>
>>> Florian
>>>
>>>
>> I will find this a real pain.  I use Gmail, which seems to only have Reply
> and Reply to All.  There is no Reply to List.  So to send this back to the
> list I have to Reply to All, remove Andrew from the To box, and Cut and
> Paste the list address from the CC box.  If I do not do this, Andrew will
> get my message twice.
>
> Please put it back the way it was,
>
> Tony
>

--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted