Request: Installation Instructions

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Jonathan Aquilina Jonathan Aquilina
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drupal website

I also think Michael on the site i think we should offer multiple irc
channels which are language specific like ubuntu have.

for instance:

LibreOffice-fr for french etc.

Also another suggestion for the drupal site is to include access to the
irc using qwebirc which can be integrated into the site.

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: drupal website

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Jonathan Aquilina
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I also think Michael on the site i think we should offer multiple irc
> channels which are language specific like ubuntu have.
>
> for instance:
>
> LibreOffice-fr for french etc.
>
> Also another suggestion for the drupal site is to include access to the irc
> using qwebirc which can be integrated into the site.
>
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>

I am sure this is possible. I will add it to the support requirements.
Thanks

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Jonathan Aquilina Jonathan Aquilina
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Re: drupal website

No problem. looking forward to seeing the website :) and hatching up
some more suggestions :)

On 11/26/10 8:45 AM, Michael Wheatland wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Jonathan Aquilina
> <[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> I also think Michael on the site i think we should offer multiple irc
>> channels which are language specific like ubuntu have.
>>
>> for instance:
>>
>> LibreOffice-fr for french etc.
>>
>> Also another suggestion for the drupal site is to include access to the irc
>> using qwebirc which can be integrated into the site.
>>
>> --
>> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
>> Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/
>> *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
>>
>>
> I am sure this is possible. I will add it to the support requirements.
> Thanks
>


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Robert Holtzman
Le 2010-11-26 01:05, Robert Holtzman a écrit :

> On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 09:47:05PM -0500, Marc Paré wrote:
>> Le 2010-11-25 18:54, Robert Holtzman a écrit :
>>
>>>
>>> One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that makes
>>> you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a modicum of
>>> research and try what's found before posting a question to a list. Also,
>>> the post should include the standard information, s/w version, OS, etc.
>>> If you have been participating in mail lists for very long, I'm
>>> surprised you don't recommend this yourself.
>>
>> This usually happens as a normal course of discussion with people
>> who need help. The initial contact may not have enough information
>> and we usually as for more. This is pretty standard. I believe it is
>> asking too much from a new user to expect this knowledge prior to
>> posting. Otherwise, if we had that attitude, we would constantly be
>> berating these people and making them feel like our help list is not
>> really helpful.
>
> Could you point out where I said that noobs should posses the
> information *prior* to their first post? Obviously, the instruction
> would be given with the initial reply.

Is that not what you wrote up above when I quoted you?

"One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that
makes you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a
modicum of research and try what's found before posting a question to a
list. Also, the post should include the standard information, s/w
version, OS, etc."

>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid employees
>>> or if the posters were paying for help. In that case pandering to lazy
>>> users with an infuriating sense of entitlement might be excused because
>>> one does not piss off a paying customer. The truth is, however, that the
>>> contributors are unpaid volunteers who hang here from altruistic
>>> motives and as such are entitled to the respect of not having their time
>>> wasted trying to guess the problem from incomplete questions.
>>
>> How can you be altruistic and still feel like you are entitled to
>> respect from others? These seem like opposing concepts. If you are
>> altruistic, then you don't care if people do not give you your
>> "entitled" respect. You actually have to earn respect. People do not
>> owe you respect. Otherwise, IMO, this would not make you a good
>> candidate for a help list.
>
> Respect is earned by giving the time and contributing to the list.

You may have earned some respect from the people who run the help list
but not from a new user or users who don't know you. Having earned the
respect of others also does not make you any more special than anyone
else. It's the impression that others have of you that makes you special.

>
>>
>>>
>>> This may have little to do with installation instructions but it
>>> addresses the flavor I'm getting from some of the messages that *all*
>>> users should be catered to and the clueless ones not be guided into the
>>> right way to ask questions but be tolerated and spoon fed. I have
>>> nothing against clueless users. That's how everyone starts out but, I
>>> remember being guided (sometimes not so gently) in how to ask questions.
>>> I'm not advocating *all* noobs become proficient sysadmins but running a
>>> few simple searches and trying a few things is a far cry from that.
>>
>> So if you were guided "sometimes not so gently" when you started off
>> this makes it right to continue with this technique? Remember, that
>> people are here for help and not to be judged. The just want help.
>> Again, there are simply too many unknown variables that may make a
>> person understand "accepted guidelines" for help lists. A helping
>> and friendly help list always wins over a condescending and
>> patronising help list.
>
> First, there is nothing condescending or patronizing in what I
> suggested.

That passage was meant as what I consider a helpdesk's attitude. Sorry
if it sounds like it was aimed at you. It is meant as a general statement.

>
> Second, if you would bother to read my post you would see that I'm not
> advocating insulting, belittling, or otherwise treating noobs harshly.
>>

I don't think that your quoted comment (below) of how you feel would set
the stage for a good reception of a user who had not filled in what you
consider the requirements for a help request. But sure if I
misunderstood that passage, I am sorry.

"This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid employees
  or if the posters were paying for help. In that case pandering to lazy
  users with an infuriating sense of entitlement might be excused
because  one does not piss off a paying customer. The truth is, however,
that the contributors are unpaid volunteers who hang here from
altruistic motives and as such are entitled to the respect of not having
their time wasted trying to guess the problem from incomplete questions."

>>>
>>> As far as I'm concerned there is too much of what I call the servant
>>> mentality on this list. I don't find nearly as much on any of the other
>>> lists I'm involved with, including the ubuntu-users and firefox-support
>>> lists which get their share of newly minted users who barely know how to
>>> turn their computer on.
>>
>> Unfortunately, a help list/desk by definition are exactly that a
>> service (from where the word "servant" comes from) to people who
>> need help. If serving people in need frustrates particular people,
>> then they should not be on the help list.
>
> You really do have a problem getting the sense of what I wrote. You got
> that last part backwards.

Sorry if I did and thanks for your comments.

Cheers

Marc



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bedipp bedipp
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Re:=?UTF-8?B?IFs=?=tdf-discuss=?UTF-8?B?XSA=?=Request:=?UTF-8?B?IA==?=Installation=?UTF-8?B?IA==?=Instructions

In reply to this post by Jonathan Aquilina
Hi Jonathan, *'

Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
> I am not trying to hijack this list, but wouldn't it be better to have a
> list for each language that we support, if we have users of particular
> languages they can use that list and not have to struggle to use English
> to get help?
>
Every native-language team is invited to show their users the way to the
users lists.

At the moment mailing lists for quite a number of languages have been
created:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Local_Mailing_Lists

Please have a look at the teams providing a users@[ISO].libreoffice.org for
teams following this approach already

Best regards

Bernhard




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jonathon-5 jonathon-5
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Rictec
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On 11/26/2010 01:21 AM, Rictec wrote:

> how about language? can i ask a good question on this language?

For somebody who isn't confident about their ability to correctly
express themselves in English, I'd rather see their question in their
native language, and their version of an English translation, than only
their version of an English translation.

I may not understand the native language, but between the querant's
English translation, and the machine translations from a dozen different
software programs, I'll have a much better sense of what is being asked.

jonathon
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Barbara Duprey Barbara Duprey
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Re: Mailing List Languages [was Re: Request: Installation Instructions]

In reply to this post by Jonathan Aquilina
On 11/26/2010 12:51 AM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
> I am not trying to hijack this list, but wouldn't it be better to have a list for each language
> that we support, if we have users of particular languages they can use that list and not have to
> struggle to use English to get help?

(Sorry, but using Reply to start a new topic is considered hijacking -- it's best to send a new
message to the list.)

The mailing lists and forums for the other supported languages tend to be established only when
somebody is willing to "own" them, so they will probably come (and maybe go) over time. The problem
is that generally whoever has a question needs a fairly wide audience for the best chance of getting
their answer, and the more the list populations are subdivided the smaller that audience gets. The
Google translation capability, for instance, seems to be getting pretty good, so maybe that is an
option until/unless there is a sufficiently large group to sustain the localized communities.
Perhaps we should have something linked from a Support page that describes current best practice for
each supported language? Then if we see that somebody is really struggling we can send them there.

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Peter Morgan Peter Morgan
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Re: Mailing List Languages [was Re: Request: Installation Instructions]

Is there a "welsh one" yet.. and a curious question .//
is it domain bound//0 ;-)

Place holders etc.. but never ever a real translation at "up stream" provides..

 ??



On 26 November 2010 14:37, Barbara Duprey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11/26/2010 12:51 AM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
>>
>> I am not trying to hijack this list, but wouldn't it be better to have a
>> list for each language that we support, if we have users of particular
>> languages they can use that list and not have to struggle to use English to
>> get help?
>
> (Sorry, but using Reply to start a new topic is considered hijacking -- it's
> best to send a new message to the list.)
>
> The mailing lists and forums for the other supported languages tend to be
> established only when somebody is willing to "own" them, so they will
> probably come (and maybe go) over time. The problem is that generally
> whoever has a question needs a fairly wide audience for the best chance of
> getting their answer, and the more the list populations are subdivided the
> smaller that audience gets. The Google translation capability, for instance,
> seems to be getting pretty good, so maybe that is an option until/unless
> there is a sufficiently large group to sustain the localized communities.
> Perhaps we should have something linked from a Support page that describes
> current best practice for each supported language? Then if we see that
> somebody is really struggling we can send them there.
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
> Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/
> *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
>
>

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Robert Holtzman Robert Holtzman
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by marcpare4
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 05:06:51AM -0500, Marc Par� wrote:
> Le 2010-11-26 01:05, Robert Holtzman a écrit :

             ..........snip.........

> >
> >Could you point out where I said that noobs should posses the
> >information *prior* to their first post? Obviously, the instruction
> >would be given with the initial reply.
>
> Is that not what you wrote up above when I quoted you?
>
> "One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that
> makes you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a
> modicum of research and try what's found before posting a question
> to a list. Also, the post should include the standard information,
> s/w version, OS, etc."

Your statement: "I believe it is asking too much from a new user to expect
this knowledge prior to posting." sounded like you thought I expected a
first time poster to possess prior knowledge. My apologies if I got that
wrong.

             .........snip........

> >
> >Respect is earned by giving the time and contributing to the list.
>
> You may have earned some respect from the people who run the help
> list but not from a new user or users who don't know you. Having
> earned the respect of others also does not make you any more special
> than anyone else. It's the impression that others have of you that
> makes you special.

Knowing me individually has nothing to do with it. When you post a
question to a list you are requesting help from a volunteer who is
donating his/her time and knowledge without compensation. This in itself
is what is deserving of respect.

              ............snip..........

> >>
> >>So if you were guided "sometimes not so gently" when you started off
> >>this makes it right to continue with this technique? Remember, that
> >>people are here for help and not to be judged. The just want help.
> >>Again, there are simply too many unknown variables that may make a
> >>person understand "accepted guidelines" for help lists. A helping
> >>and friendly help list always wins over a condescending and
> >>patronising help list.
> >
> >First, there is nothing condescending or patronizing in what I
> >suggested.
>
> That passage was meant as what I consider a helpdesk's attitude.
> Sorry if it sounds like it was aimed at you. It is meant as a
> general statement.

OK, I got that now.

>
> >
> >Second, if you would bother to read my post you would see that I'm not
> >advocating insulting, belittling, or otherwise treating noobs harshly.
> >>
>
> I don't think that your quoted comment (below) of how you feel would
> set the stage for a good reception of a user who had not filled in
> what you consider the requirements for a help request. But sure if I
> misunderstood that passage, I am sorry.
>
> "This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid
> employees  or if the posters were paying for help. In that case

          .......short snip........

> the respect of not having their time wasted trying to guess the
> problem from incomplete questions."

I'm not sure why you would get that impression. It was pretty much a
statement of fact.

>
> >>>
> >>>As far as I'm concerned there is too much of what I call the servant
> >>>mentality on this list. I don't find nearly as much on any of the other
> >>>lists I'm involved with, including the ubuntu-users and firefox-support
> >>>lists which get their share of newly minted users who barely know how to
> >>>turn their computer on.
> >>
> >>Unfortunately, a help list/desk by definition are exactly that a
> >>service (from where the word "servant" comes from) to people who
> >>need help. If serving people in need frustrates particular people,
> >>then they should not be on the help list.
> >
> >You really do have a problem getting the sense of what I wrote. You got
> >that last part backwards.
>
> Sorry if I did and thanks for your comments.

What I meant (and should have made plain) is that I never said I was
frustrated or didn't like helping people. Also the use of the phrase
"serving people", no matter how grammatically correct in that context,
lights my fuse. I don't serve. I realize it was probably inadvertent.
Lending a helping hand, to me, isn't serving. It's just the decent
thing to do.

--
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

Thanks for the clarifications.

Cheers

Marc


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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
Hi, :-)

I've drafted an amended readme for the LibreOffice Linux downloads,
that contains:

- detailed instructions for installing LibreOffice on Debian/Ubuntu,
Fedora, Suse and Mandriva, with supporting notes for other Linux
distribs;

- detailed instructions for installing language packs on all the above distribs;

- detailed instructions for de-installing an existing LibreOffice
installation, covering all the above Linux distribs.

It would be useful to proofread what I've added, for technical
correctness and accuracy.

I've filed a bug report on the tracker [1], together with the updated
readme in ODT format. I've also uploaded the file to the wiki [2]. The
wiki would probably be the best version to proofread/correct? (I've
set a watch on the file, so I'll be notified about any updated version
that gets uploaded, and will update the bug report as necessary.)

Please feel free to add your technical comments to the bugtracker [1]
rather than here; I'll be watching that bug and will ensure that any
necessary corrections/amendments get applied.

Hopefully, these instructions be included with the next release, and
maybe the existing download will be updated.

Thanks if so. ;-)

HTH.

[1] https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31956
[2] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Readme-for-libreoffice-beta3-linux.odt

David Nelson

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