Request: Installation Instructions

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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

Sigrid Carrera wrote:

> Yes, I agree with you, arrogance doesn't help this project. But I
> guess, René (btw, he is (was?) the Debian maintainer for OOo, and I
> guess, he will maintain LibO for Debian too) has seen similar questions
> too much and many people aren't willing to learn something new. So I can
> understand, that he lost patience. But this is no excuse, since I've
> seen this question only once here.

I think that every individual has the right to decide what he want to
learn and what he does not want to learn. I do not want to learn to use
the Terminal. Full stop. It is my right, and I simply ignore software if
I have to use the Terminal.

Each one of us is good at something, and bad at something. I am bad at
technology, but good at marketing and communications. I have never told
to people unable to speak in public that they MUST learn to speak in
public (also because the majority is not able to learn the skills which
are necessary for that task, either because they are not interested or
because - being humans - lack the basic ability).

I lack the ability of learning to use technology beyond a certain level
of complexity, because I am not interested, exactly as other people are
not able to speak in public because they lack the basic ability. What
should I tell them: speaking in public is SOOO easy, why are you so DUMB?

Unfortunately, reading this thread I have realized that TDF is too much
developer oriented, exactly as OOo was too much developer oriented (and
missed many objectives because of this bias).

As a founding member and a Steering Committee member of TDF, I am not
happy at all. Users must be respected, and if a user asks for an easier
installation procedure, he is probably right (and the easier procedure
has to be provided, sooner or later according to resources).

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Italo Vignoli
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Robert Holtzman Robert Holtzman
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Charles Marcus
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 03:06:27PM -0500, Charles Marcus wrote:
> On 2010-11-22 10:07 AM, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> > There is no goddamn need for it.
>
> And there's no need for profanity either...

Sometimes it's required.

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Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"

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Robert Holtzman Robert Holtzman
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 01:30:19AM +0930, Michael Wheatland wrote:

> > You were responding *my* mail not referring to my contents.
> > Friedrich
>
> I am new to this mailing list thing. I use Gmail and I reply by
> clicking the 'reply' space at the very bottom of the conversation
> list.
> How are you able to tell which message I reply to? And what should I
> be doing to ensure that the message gets to it's intended target?
> But thanks for the tip.
>
> Yes I was most defininately referring to Rene's comments.
> I have experienced a similar type of arrogance amongst 2 other open
> source projects, one of which was resolved quickly and resolutely by
> it's members actively denouncing such attitudes within the community.

A little gratuitous advice (not criticism). If you are new to mailing
lists be aware that you should develop a thick skin. You're dealing
with people and some people have shorter fuses than others. If they come
across to you as arrogant you have several options. Ignore them, dig
through the perceived arrogance to see what they are trying to convey,
or filter their posts. The last runs the risk of missing out on
important information.

FWIW my attitude toward people learning at least the rudiments of their
OS, beyond merely where to point and click, is quite similar to Rene's.
>
> Thanks again,
> Michael Wheatland
>
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Key ID: 8D549279
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 check the price of the beer"

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Carl Symons Carl Symons
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 3:06 PM, Robert Holtzman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 01:30:19AM +0930, Michael Wheatland wrote:

>> Yes I was most defininately referring to Rene's comments.
>> I have experienced a similar type of arrogance amongst 2 other open
>> source projects, one of which was resolved quickly and resolutely by
>> it's members actively denouncing such attitudes within the community.
>
> A little gratuitous advice (not criticism). If you are new to mailing
> lists be aware that you should develop a thick skin. You're dealing
> with people and some people have shorter fuses than others. If they come
> across to you as arrogant you have several options. Ignore them, dig
> through the perceived arrogance to see what they are trying to convey,
> or filter their posts. The last runs the risk of missing out on
> important information.
>
> FWIW my attitude toward people learning at least the rudiments of their
> OS, beyond merely where to point and click, is quite similar to Rene's.
>>

In like fashion, people who don't want to put up with gratuitous
profanity have the same right to speak up about it. The person who
acts in ways that others perceive as arrogant and uses language that
detracts from conversations runs the risk of being dismissed. This
train runs both ways. The idea that profanity is sometimes required is
laughable. Why is that? To make a point more forcefully. To derail a
conversation. Whatever. The Document Foundation is a community
offering valuable software. Profanity IMO is unnecessary.

It is not anywhere written in the mission of the Document Foundation
that users have to learn anything about installation. However, there
is this on the LibreOffice page, "...improving how to make the
software available to our users." It would seem that Italo's position
is more in keeping with the apparent tech-elite proposed by Rene and
Robert Holtzman. You are certainly free to hold the opinion and impose
it on people that you support. It appears as though the requirement
that people have to know their OS before they can use LibO is going
down in defeat. Time for more swearing!!!

Italo, I work on several open source projects. Almost everyone else
involved is a developer (I'm more in your camp, although the dpkg -i
x86_64 .deb issue is well within my ability). In every case, there is
shared emphasis on users. What benefits the users? There's a whole lot
to that of course. But in no case is there the attitude that people
need to learn some level of the OS before they are considered worthy
of the product. Thank you for your work in making the Document
Foundation happen. I believe that you are on the right side of this
issue.

Carl

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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

Carl Symons wrote:

> Italo, I work on several open source projects. Almost everyone else
> involved is a developer (I'm more in your camp, although the dpkg -i
> x86_64 .deb issue is well within my ability). In every case, there is
> shared emphasis on users. What benefits the users? There's a whole lot
> to that of course. But in no case is there the attitude that people
> need to learn some level of the OS before they are considered worthy
> of the product. Thank you for your work in making the Document
> Foundation happen. I believe that you are on the right side of this
> issue.

Thanks.

I can, of course, try to use the Terminal to install a software, and I
have done it in the past when Ubuntu Tweak was not there.

I have a netbook with the infamous Poulsbo graphic card, and I have to
run a script to make it usable (and I have to use the damned Terminal).
But I do not like it, and it makes me nervous as I do not understand
what is happening.

The fact that I am technically illiterate (and I like being so) does not
make me a worse user, or one with less rights. Communities around the
world have made OOo a better product because they have cared about
users, although the project was clearly driven by developers not able to
show any respect for users (and where the community was not there the
project has been marginally successful).

TDF should not reproduce the same mistakes. The success of the project
cannot be built on a group prevailing on others.

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Italo Vignoli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> TDF should not reproduce the same mistakes. The success of the project
> cannot be built on a group prevailing on others.

> Italo Vignoli

Italo,
Thanks for all of the hard work with the foundation. I am sure this
will be a great project, we just need to get things right early.

In response to this thread I would like to propose that the steering
committee move a motion with respect to supportive, positive
communication while using all official LibreOffice communication
methods.
This could be in the form of a code of conduct like:
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct

I know the by-laws are a little way off, but as a community it is very
important to address and quash any aggressive or vitriolic attitudes
and establish a community culture that is supportive nurturing.
IMHO we need a mechanism to deal with this earlier rather than later,
even if that means loosing (or in extreme cases kicking) some
technically talented people due to their attitude.

Rene and Robert,
How can the community help you to change your attitude or approach and
take on the widely accepted etiquette, patience and manners open
source project culture.

Thanks,
Michael Wheatland

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NoOp NoOp
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Craig A. Eddy
On 11/22/2010 06:43 AM, Craig A. Eddy wrote:
...

> René
>
> It isn't so much that I administer a Debian release as that I USE a
> Debian release and do what I can.  What I do is what I have managed to
> learn to do over time, but without any formal training in UNIX, Linux,
> administration, coding, or anything else.  That causes gaps in my
> education that I freely admit.  I feel no shame for what I have learned
> OR for what I haven't learned.  Not everyone can be as experienced as
> you, nor can everyone feel as comfortable using CLI as you.  It is,
> however why I feel comfortable asking questions or asking for help even
> from complete strangers who might think less of me for my asking.

Not sure which Debian distro that you are using, but if you are using
Ubuntu you may find these helpful:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallingSoftware
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoftwareManagement
http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/maverick/man1/dpkg.1.html
and bookmark:
https://help.ubuntu.com/
  https://help.ubuntu.com/10.10/index.html
https://help.ubuntu.com/community
 https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommonQuestions

Note: I _think_ there are similar for standard Debian & other Debian
based distros.

In general; to install LO .deb files on an Ubuntu system (for others
that may have the same question):

1. http://www.documentfoundation.org/download/
Note the:
"You can also download using BitTorrent, or browse all the Beta3
installation packages to get unofficial Debian packages (32-bit .debs or
64-bit .debs), or language packs."
Click on the appropriate for your system (32-bit or 64-bit)
32-bit:
o
http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/testing/3.3.0-beta3/deb/x86/LibO_3.3.0_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz
64-bit:
o
http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/testing/3.3.0-beta3/deb/x86_64/LibO_3.3.0_Linux_x86-64_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz

Or just use the "browse all the Beta3 installation packages" link to:
http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/testing/3.3.0-beta3/
<http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/testing/3.3.0-beta3/deb/>
(32-bit example)
<http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/testing/3.3.0-beta3/deb/x86/>
Download:
 LibO_3.3.0_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz 15-Nov-2010 16:57 164M
Details

Important: the 'Details' link will give you md5sum/SHA/hash information
that you can use to verify the package download with.

2. Once the appropriate tar.gz file is downloaded; use Nautilus to
browse to the file download. Right click the tar.gz file and select
'Extract here'. Nautilus will then automatically extract the contents &
assign proper file permissions to a new folder:
LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US (in the case of
32-bit). Under that folder you will find 3 subfolders: DEBS, licences,
and readmes.
  The 'DEBS' (LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US/DEBS)
folder is the folder that contains all the .deb packages. It also
contains a subfolder 'desktop-integration' which contain the .deb
package for adding LO to your desktop menus.
Note the location of the
LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US/DEBS folder. [1]

3. Open a terminal (Applications|Accessories|terminal) and cd to the
location of the
LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US/DEBS folder. Example:

$ cd
/home/<username>/LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US/DEBS

Now install the .deb packages:

$ sudo dpkg -i *.deb

That will install all of the .deb packages in the system /opt folders
/opt/libreoffice and /opt/libreoffice3

Now install the menus:

$ cd desktop-integration
$ sudo dpkg -i *.deb

You now should have a working LO installed with menus added to
Applications|Office|LibreOffice... If the menus are not automatically
you may have to use:

$ sudo update-menus

or logout/login to get them to appear.

Note: when you start LO, your LO profile will be located in:
~/.libreoffice/3/user
(/home/<username>/.libreoffice/3/user)


[1] You can do all of this from the terminal rather than using Nautilus.
However I recommend using Nautilus to new users so that you will have an
graphical idea of were the files are located. To do from the terminal
cli only:

I. Open the terminal and cd to the location of the .tar.gz file.
II. Extract the .tar.gz file (again using the 32-bit file as an example):

$ tar xvzf LibO_3.3.0_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz

III. Now continue with #3 above.

I'm sure that someone can take all of that & make corrections & possibly
put in some pretty screenshots etc., but that is pretty much the way
that I do my installs & HTH.

One added note: if you wish to have multiple installs for testing
purposes, I've found the basic instructions for doing OOo parallel
installs helpful:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Run_OOo_versions_parallel
Of particular importance is the section on:
User directory configuration for 3.* versions


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NoOp NoOp
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Rene Engelhard-3
On 11/22/2010 04:33 AM, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 08:04:29AM -0700, Craig A. Eddy wrote:
>> listed in the README_en-US file.  I'm not familiar with dpgk, though I
>
> Then get. You administer a Debian-based system without knowing dpkg? Oh my.
>
> (Besides that, http://packages.debian.org/libreoffice has a metapackage -
> you need at least squeeze for it, though)

For Ubuntu, see:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/651124
[[needs-packaging] LibreOffice Productivity Suite]


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Robert Holtzman Robert Holtzman
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Rene Engelhard-3
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:31:58PM +0100, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 02:28:54PM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> > open to learning a *few* new things, it is extremely user friendly.
> > There is, however, a segment of the population that actively resists
> > learning *anything*.
>
> And that's a problem.

I would say that's *the* problem.

--
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Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Robert Holtzman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:31:58PM +0100, Rene Engelhard wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 02:28:54PM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote:
>> > open to learning a *few* new things, it is extremely user friendly.
>> > There is, however, a segment of the population that actively resists
>> > learning *anything*.
>>
>> And that's a problem.
>
> I would say that's *the* problem.
> Bob Holtzman

The message does not seem to be getting through here.
Simply: This type of personal criticism is unacceptable in the
LibreOffice community.

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Craig A. Eddy Craig A. Eddy
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by NoOp


On 11/22/2010 06:37 PM, NoOp wrote:

> On 11/22/2010 06:43 AM, Craig A. Eddy wrote:
> ...
>> René
>>
>> It isn't so much that I administer a Debian release as that I USE a
>> Debian release and do what I can.  What I do is what I have managed to
>> learn to do over time, but without any formal training in UNIX, Linux,
>> administration, coding, or anything else.  That causes gaps in my
>> education that I freely admit.  I feel no shame for what I have learned
>> OR for what I haven't learned.  Not everyone can be as experienced as
>> you, nor can everyone feel as comfortable using CLI as you.  It is,
>> however why I feel comfortable asking questions or asking for help even
>> from complete strangers who might think less of me for my asking.
>
> Not sure which Debian distro that you are using, but if you are using
> Ubuntu you may find these helpful:
>
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallingSoftware
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoftwareManagement
> http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/maverick/man1/dpkg.1.html
> and bookmark:
> https://help.ubuntu.com/
>   https://help.ubuntu.com/10.10/index.html
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community
>  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommonQuestions
>
> Note: I _think_ there are similar for standard Debian & other Debian
> based distros.
>
> In general; to install LO .deb files on an Ubuntu system (for others
> that may have the same question):
>
> 1. http://www.documentfoundation.org/download/
> Note the:
> "You can also download using BitTorrent, or browse all the Beta3
> installation packages to get unofficial Debian packages (32-bit .debs or
> 64-bit .debs), or language packs."
> Click on the appropriate for your system (32-bit or 64-bit)
> 32-bit:
> o
> http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/testing/3.3.0-beta3/deb/x86/LibO_3.3.0_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz
> 64-bit:
> o
> http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/testing/3.3.0-beta3/deb/x86_64/LibO_3.3.0_Linux_x86-64_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz
>
> Or just use the "browse all the Beta3 installation packages" link to:
> http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/testing/3.3.0-beta3/
> <http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/testing/3.3.0-beta3/deb/>
> (32-bit example)
> <http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/testing/3.3.0-beta3/deb/x86/>
> Download:
>  LibO_3.3.0_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz 15-Nov-2010 16:57 164M
> Details
>
> Important: the 'Details' link will give you md5sum/SHA/hash information
> that you can use to verify the package download with.
>
> 2. Once the appropriate tar.gz file is downloaded; use Nautilus to
> browse to the file download. Right click the tar.gz file and select
> 'Extract here'. Nautilus will then automatically extract the contents &
> assign proper file permissions to a new folder:
> LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US (in the case of
> 32-bit). Under that folder you will find 3 subfolders: DEBS, licences,
> and readmes.
>   The 'DEBS' (LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US/DEBS)
> folder is the folder that contains all the .deb packages. It also
> contains a subfolder 'desktop-integration' which contain the .deb
> package for adding LO to your desktop menus.
> Note the location of the
> LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US/DEBS folder. [1]
>
> 3. Open a terminal (Applications|Accessories|terminal) and cd to the
> location of the
> LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US/DEBS folder. Example:
>
> $ cd
> /home/<username>/LibO_3.3.0beta3_20101115_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US/DEBS
>
> Now install the .deb packages:
>
> $ sudo dpkg -i *.deb
>
> That will install all of the .deb packages in the system /opt folders
> /opt/libreoffice and /opt/libreoffice3
>
> Now install the menus:
>
> $ cd desktop-integration
> $ sudo dpkg -i *.deb
>
> You now should have a working LO installed with menus added to
> Applications|Office|LibreOffice... If the menus are not automatically
> you may have to use:
>
> $ sudo update-menus
>
> or logout/login to get them to appear.
>
> Note: when you start LO, your LO profile will be located in:
> ~/.libreoffice/3/user
> (/home/<username>/.libreoffice/3/user)
>
>
> [1] You can do all of this from the terminal rather than using Nautilus.
> However I recommend using Nautilus to new users so that you will have an
> graphical idea of were the files are located. To do from the terminal
> cli only:
>
> I. Open the terminal and cd to the location of the .tar.gz file.
> II. Extract the .tar.gz file (again using the 32-bit file as an example):
>
> $ tar xvzf LibO_3.3.0_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US.tar.gz
>
> III. Now continue with #3 above.
>
> I'm sure that someone can take all of that & make corrections & possibly
> put in some pretty screenshots etc., but that is pretty much the way
> that I do my installs & HTH.
>
> One added note: if you wish to have multiple installs for testing
> purposes, I've found the basic instructions for doing OOo parallel
> installs helpful:
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Run_OOo_versions_parallel
> Of particular importance is the section on:
> User directory configuration for 3.* versions
>
>

NoOp,

Thank you for posting the complete (as far as I can tell) instruction so
clearly.  Personally, I was fine up until dpkg -i *.deb.  dpkg is a
command that I had never used before, and knew nothing about.

To clarify, I am using Debian Testing (Squeeze/Sid).  When Ubuntu gave
up on me (I am unable to use PulseAudio, nor does it have any features
that I want or need) I gave up on it, including:

Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter – editor - resign
Fridge – editor – resign
Fridge Calendar – editor - resign
Arizona LoCo Team Newsletter – reporter – resign
Ubuntu Member – resign
Ubuntu Member email address – elimination
Ubuntu Member IRC host mask – elimination
Planet Ubuntu connection to my blog – elimination
“Adventures in a Perambulator” blog – elimination
Ubuntu wiki page – elimination
Ubuntu LaunchPad page – elimination
Ubuntu LaunchPad login – elimination
Ubuntu Forums – resign
Email lists – including administration:
ubuntu-news – resign
ubuntu-news-team – resign
ubuntu-us-az – resign
Website administration:
azloco.com – resign
ubuntu-us.org – resign

Contrary to unpopular belief (at least for me) I am not afraid of the
terminal.  I may prefer to use GUI where-ever and when-ever possible,
but I started with System V, Release 4 UNIX on a SPARC Workstation 1+,
including things like finding ways to do tape backup of AutoCAD drawings
for the company, and threatening to lock out the SysAdmin if he ever
again tried to lock me out of using super user to do the backups (among
other things, like reformatting - low level - the hard drives because
he'd overlapped the cylinders and caused the system to try to eat
itself).  Obviously, NONE of this was done using GUI.  After the company
went back to Windows (Win95, to be exact), my son emailed me from
college to ask if I could give him a list of useful UNIX commands.  I
did so, from memory, complete with information concerning what each
command was used for and how to find the man pages.  He is now working
in the NOC at Frontiernet, so I must have done something right.

Nor am I against learning.  Looking back on my 65 years of age, 47 of
which were as a working adult, EVERY job I've had has involved learning.
 Most of them involved learning on my own without any help.  And with
all of them I have exceeded what was expected of me.  And, as a matter
of fact (getting back to the subject at hand) once I'd been shown the
command to install LO, I had NO problems.  Check back in the mailing
list and you'll see that I even thanked the person that showed it to me
(Stefan Weigel - On 11/20/2010 08:04 AM UTC -7).  Oh, and I'm STILL
learning.

I am not a developer/programmer.  I am an end user.  All I can do to to
help with the development of LibreOffice is to ask for information
(which can lead to better and clearer instructions or the elimination of
bugs that I might not realize are bugs), and offer suggestions from the
point of view of an end user.  I can also try to promote LibreOffice
(marketing, in a sense), and offer thanks to the people who do the
difficult task of producing fine software.

If I haven't made it clear, Thank You, developers and producers of
LibreOffice.  I think you've made a good start, and am anxious awaiting
where you go from here.  I appreciate all the work you have done, and
the effort you are going through, now, with the rebirth of OO.o as
LibreOffice.  And NoOp, again, I thank you for taking the time and
effort to try to make it easier for others to install the .debs on
Debian and Debian derivatives (even Ubuntu :-)  ).

Thank you

Craig A. Eddy
Tyche

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NoOp NoOp
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

On 11/22/2010 08:09 PM, Craig A. Eddy wrote:
>
>
> On 11/22/2010 06:37 PM, NoOp wrote:
...
> ...And NoOp, again, I thank you for taking the time and
> effort to try to make it easier for others to install the .debs on
> Debian and Debian derivatives (even Ubuntu :-)  ).
>

Welcome :-)

You may find this useful:
http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/index.en.html#contents
http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-pkgtools.en.html
<http://www.debianadmin.com/debianubuntu-package-management-using-dpkg.html>

Can you possibly try the squeeze packages:
http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=libreoffice
http://packages.debian.org/experimental/libreoffice
& provide feedback on how they install? I'm interested in knowing as I
would like to see
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/651124
[[needs-packaging] LibreOffice Productivity Suite]
progress. Thanks.



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Sveinn í Felli Sveinn í Felli
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Robert Holtzman
Þann þri 23.nóv 2010 02:17, skrifaði Michael Wheatland:

> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Robert Holtzman<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:31:58PM +0100, Rene Engelhard wrote:
>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 02:28:54PM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote:
>>>> open to learning a *few* new things, it is extremely user friendly.
>>>> There is, however, a segment of the population that actively resists
>>>> learning *anything*.
>>>
>>> And that's a problem.
>>
>> I would say that's *the* problem.
>> Bob Holtzman
>
> The message does not seem to be getting through here.
> Simply: This type of personal criticism is unacceptable in the
> LibreOffice community.
>

Maybe this can serve as a warning; we should carefully hurry
to put up more specialised communication channels (avoiding
group isolation but still minimizing similar clashes). I see
the argument made by Rene as somewhat valid - but only in a
certain context.
Which it is not on the [tdf-discuss] list but might be on an
[tdf-devel-discuss] list (although some manners could be
useful).

It's quite surreal to see some power users/developers not
seeing or refusing to see that the whole concept of the
software in question IS a big metaphor: Office.
And its users are using GUIs and other metaphors for
handling the software; for even the most capable of them the
CLI is at best scary.

As a translation coordinator of LibO/OOo and other things, I
can confirm that the best translators are not necessarily
capable of learning basic command-line commands. They want
an easy way to see their translations in action.
And the sysadmins I've been working with are normally too
overloaded to remember upgrading manually the LibO/OOo
packages on their systems (my language is not yet in the
official distribution channels). They want their software to
come through official and reliable repositories.
So it took about 30 minutes of searching and fiddling to
create a Packages.gz file and publishing the packages as our
localised .deb repository. Think it's similar for other
flavors like yum .rpm.
Still I'd like a primary metapackage so we could
install/deinstall ONE package instead of the whole bunch.

Anyway, I presume LibO will not be distributed this way in
the future, 'dpkg -i *.deb' or 'rpm -ivh *.rpm' will be
reserved for testing/development/adventurous people.
Linux users will get their LibreOffice through their package
managers, probably via distribution specific repositories. I
think I saw another thread a while ago where it was
discussed whether LibreOffice should maintain their own
repo. Maybe one for testing/QA/translations would be useful.

Just my 2 centimes,

Sveinn í Felli


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Sonic4Spuds Sonic4Spuds
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Rene Engelhard-3
On 11/22/2010 06:31 AM, Rene Engelhard wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 09:03:35AM -0600, Alexandro Colorado wrote:
>>> unsuspecting users to the same problem that OOo has been famous for:
>>> there is no obvious way to start to install the files.  Dependencies for
> dpkg -i *.deb?
>
>>> each .deb have to be met, but nothing indicates the order with which to
>>> install them.  When dealing with 52 .deb files it's like trying to do a
>>> jigsaw puzzle where all distinguishing marks have been filed off.
> Nope. Really, I expect anybody having root on a Debian-based system to know
> dpkg. Seriously.
>
This is not the case, many people on debian based systems are new to
linux. Linux Mint and Ubuntu both use debian as their base. These are
some of the best distros for new users, who usually have a fear of the
terminal and typing command arguments.

It would make sense for LibreOffice to make it an easy for new and
inexperienced users to both use and test the suite:-) .
>>> It would be much easier if there were a single meta-package that would
>>> act as the start point.  Failing that, at least an ordered list that an
> http://packages.debian.org/libreoffice FTR.
>
> Grüße/Regards,
>
> René
>


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Rene Engelhard-3 Rene Engelhard-3
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Robert Holtzman
Hi,

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 09:21:08AM +0000, Sveinn í Felli wrote:
> It's quite surreal to see some power users/developers not seeing or
> refusing to see that the whole concept of the software in question
> IS a big metaphor: Office.

Wrong, I do see it.

> And its users are using GUIs and other metaphors for handling the
> software; for even the most capable of them the CLI is at best
> scary.

Correct, they are *users* _of the office_. For that I agree, they don't
need to worry. For people *installing* the office and thus effectively
*asministering* their system it *does* matter.

> And the sysadmins I've been working with are normally too overloaded
> to remember upgrading manually the LibO/OOo packages on their
> systems (my language is not yet in the official distribution
> channels). They want their software to come through official and
> reliable repositories.
> So it took about 30 minutes of searching and fiddling to create a
> Packages.gz file and publishing the packages as our localised .deb
> repository. Think it's similar for other flavors like yum .rpm.
> Still I'd like a primary metapackage so we could install/deinstall
> ONE package instead of the whole bunch.

You can trivially create one if you have the above in a Packages.gz
anyways.

> Anyway, I presume LibO will not be distributed this way in the
> future, 'dpkg -i *.deb' or 'rpm -ivh *.rpm' will be reserved for
> testing/development/adventurous people.
> Linux users will get their LibreOffice through their package
> managers, probably via distribution specific repositories. I think I

Exactly.

Grüße/Regards,

René

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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Robert Holtzman
On 2010-11-22 9:11 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:31:58PM +0100, Rene Engelhard wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 02:28:54PM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote:
>>> There is, however, a segment of the population that actively resists
>>> learning *anything*.

>> And that's a problem.

> I would say that's *the* problem.

Why? People like this will *always* have a problem with *any* software
updates that change *anything* - so, why worry about it?

Just keep improving the software (e.g., I was really happy to see the
prompt for making the file associations for the Microsoft formats back
in the GUI in the LibO 3.3b3 installer), improve the FAQ's and Help
files and Installation instructions based on feedback from the user
community, and don't worry about 'problems' that you have no control over.

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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Robert Holtzman
On 2010-11-22 5:50 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 03:06:27PM -0500, Charles Marcus wrote:
>> On 2010-11-22 10:07 AM, Rene Engelhard wrote:
>>> There is no goddamn need for it.

>> And there's no need for profanity either...

> Sometimes it's required.

That is absurd. I have no problem with profanity on private mail lists
or in private personal discussions if the creators/owners of such lists
choose to allow it, but it should never be tolerated on public support
mail lists like this one.

I certainly hope the moderators will enforce bans on such behavior,
otherwise your and my Grandmothers will likely not hang around very long.

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Rene Engelhard-3 Rene Engelhard-3
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Sonic4Spuds
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 07:50:59AM -0600, Sonic4Spuds wrote:
> This is not the case, many people on debian based systems are new to
> linux. Linux Mint and Ubuntu both use debian as their base. These

And those still have to know basics.

Even totally nonsensical beginner documents I find printed in random
bookstores mention on how you do essential stuff on the console.

> are some of the best distros for new users, who usually have a fear
> of the terminal and typing command arguments.

And their quality is bad. Mentioning Ubuntu as an example here disqualifies
you already.

Grüße/Regards,

René

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Sonic4Spuds Sonic4Spuds
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Rene Engelhard-3
On 11/22/2010 11:50 AM, Rene Engelhard wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 03:52:41PM +0000, Lee Hyde wrote:
>> original poster is making. Windows users are presented with a single
>> setup.exe while debian/ubuntu users are presented with a multitude of
>> individual .deb files. This is not user friendly!
> Nonsense. dpkg -i *.deb is user friendly, despite what you want to claim.
> That graphical tools might make it difficult is no argument.
>
>> On 22/11/10 15:07, Rene Engelhard wrote:
>>> There is no goddamn need for it. (That Ubuntu people in 90% of cases have
>>> no clue how they do basic system tasks doesn't make it more needed)
>> This is a rather hostile attitude to show towards end users and an
> If those end users don't think, yes, you're right.
>
>> based operating systems in the past. If your position were to be taken
>> to its logical conclusion we should scrap LibreOffice, which afterall is
>> pandering to the masses with its use of GUI and WYSIWYG, in favour of TeX.
> No, my position taken to the logical conclusion would not be that (as I think
> there's use cases for GUIs - I didn't say anything against them here but just
> mentioned that dpkg is basics - we don't need GUIs but that we need a "drivers license"
> for computers. Mandatory for everyone who wants to use PCs.
>
> The same as if you would not be allowed to drive a car if you don't know where
> the steering wheel or the gas pedal is, neither would you be allowed to use a gear car
> when you only know automatic.
>
> Learn basics, or live with people telling you that you need to look at basics before
> you do stuff.
>
> Grüße/Regards,
>
> René
>
Personally I think that the mailing list admin needs to message these
people. Libre and FLOSS by definition are for the "ignorant" masses and
not for the select few who don't care for a visual experience. It is sad
to see people flaming new users so soon after this project was started.

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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Charles Marcus
On 11/22/2010 02:06 PM, Charles Marcus wrote:
> On 2010-11-22 10:07 AM, Rene Engelhard wrote:
>> There is no goddamn need for it.
> And there's no need for profanity either...
>
+2:-)

I agree with this suggestion.

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