Request: Installation Instructions

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Friedrich Strohmaier Friedrich Strohmaier
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Communication in Mailinglist (was:Re: Request: Installation Instructions)

Hi Michael, *,

Michael Wheatland schrieb:

>> You were responding *my* mail not referring to my contents.
>> Friedrich

>I am new to this mailing list thing.

Ah, O.K. so I will explain how I handle this (which is near to the
recommended way to do).

>I use Gmail and I reply by
>clicking the 'reply' space at the very bottom of the conversation
>list.

I don't know Gmail, but what You tell from it's not a very mailing list
capable mail client.

>How are you able to tell which message I reply to?

The secret is mails sorted by discussion "threads". Every time You
answer a mail your mailer (aparently even gmail does :o)) ) puts some
information, who was the "parent" of the answer.  You don't see that
because it's saved in the mails headerpart.

If Your mailer is capable sorting mails by thread, You will se a tree of
mails with branches each time forked, when there are more than one
answers for the referred mail.

I took a screenshot of the related part of this discussion in my mailer'
window:
http://devel.libreofficebox.org/static/general/misc/download/threaded_listmails.png

Byond the mails list in the windows right column You can see how inline
quoting makes it easy to participate the discussion without retyping and
(interpreting!) the referred statement You're commenting. That ">"s at
beginning of the lines mark the quotet text - each answer adding one
more so You can see the history of the answer.

that >>> quoted part was text from Craigs originating mail which more
correctly should have been mentioned in a apropriate "attribution line"
like:

René Engelhard schrieb:
>> Craig A. Eddy wrote:

The archive shows the whole thread here:
http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/thrd32.html

It wouldn't harm to have a look here for tips regarding useful quoting:
http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

>And what should I be doing to ensure that the message gets to it's
>intended target?  But thanks for the tip.

Quite simple. Do what you would do in real life: Answer whom You want to
answer and start for new (new mail - no answer) if You start a new
topic. :o))

>Yes I was most defininately referring to Rene's comments.
>I have experienced a similar type of arrogance amongst 2 other open
>source projects, one of which was resolved quickly and resolutely by
>it's members actively denouncing such attitudes within the community.

I think it's not arrogance, but rather a result of unilateral view on
peoples work. René is a valued member of debian and
openoffice.org/libreoffice project.


Gruß/regards
--
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images
(german version already started)


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Larry Gusaas Larry Gusaas
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Re: Communication in Mailinglist


On 2010/11/23 11:29 AM  Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:
> Michael Wheatland schrieb:
>> >I use Gmail and I reply by
>> >clicking the 'reply' space at the very bottom of the conversation
>> >list.
> I don't know Gmail, but what You tell from it's not a very mailing list
> capable mail client.

Gmail very capable for mailing lists. Michael isn't using the right reply button. There is a
reply button (two actually) each specific message in the thread at the bottom of the message.
The reply button at the very bottom to the conversation is to reply to the last message in the
thread.

Note: Gmail isn't a client. It is an online mail service accessed through your browser



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      Larry I. Gusaas

*Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan   Canada
Website:   http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese *



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Friedrich Strohmaier Friedrich Strohmaier
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Rene Engelhard-3
Hi René, *,

René Engelhard schrieb:
>On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 07:34:13PM +0100, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:

>> From a geeks point of view You are right. But I'm shure that it is
>> not a good idea to make all people out there geeks before using a
>> computer or using office software ;o)).

>Ah, so we should let people not care about their PCs, how to use it,
> keep it safe etc. and thus affecting all, spreading viruses, spam and
> having botnets active?

No, it's never a good idea to replace one evel with another one and I
can't remember having advocated that. :o))

>> So I heavily hope, that LibreOffice will leave it's past behind and
>> will grow from a developer driven software to a community driven
>> one.

> What the hell does that have to do with people using PCs getting their
> basics straight? Correctly, it doesn't.

Yes, You are right. It was the attitude carried by Your advice which
made me writing that statement. I missed the respect regarding the OP's
work, deciding to install Libreoffice, getting wired, and *writing a
report* about that. We definitly *want* that information.

> (Otherwise I agree with you, we can argue about marketing and I agree
> for some deeper features you need docs, but come on, are you also
> going to tell people on how to use their mouse?)

Using a mouse (I learned that 36 years old in five minutes) and
installing deb based software *not hold by a repo*, are incomparably
different levels of technical practice :o)).


Gruß/regards
--
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images
(german version already started)


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Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
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Re: Communication in Mailinglist

In reply to this post by Larry Gusaas
Hi Larry, *,

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Larry Gusaas <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [...]
> Gmail very capable for mailing lists.

Except for the very one drawback you just demonstrated:
When changing the subject, gmail will break the thread (start a new
one) as it will remove the references from the reply.

ciao
Christian

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Friedrich Strohmaier Friedrich Strohmaier
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LibreOffice Community driven Project (was:Request: Installation Instructions)

In reply to this post by italovignoli
Hi Italo, *,

Italo Vignoli schrieb:

[..]

>The fact that I am technically illiterate (and I like being so) does
> not make me a worse user, or one with less rights. Communities around
> the world have made OOo a better product because they have cared
> about users, although the project was clearly driven by developers
> not able to show any respect for users (and where the community was
> not there the project has been marginally successful).

>TDF should not reproduce the same mistakes. The success of the project
>cannot be built on a group prevailing on others.

There is nothing to add to that statement.
And You are not alone achiving this! ;o))


Gruß/regards
--
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images
(german version already started)


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Friedrich Strohmaier Friedrich Strohmaier
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Re: Communication in Mailinglist

In reply to this post by Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
Hi Christian Lohmaier, *,

Christian Lohmaier schrieb:
>On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Larry Gusaas <[hidden email]>
wrote:

[...]

>> Gmail very capable for mailing lists.

>Except for the very one drawback you just demonstrated:
>When changing the subject, gmail will break the thread (start a new
>one) as it will remove the references from the reply.

Can't confirm. References are O.K. here.

So it's an accidently damage or a gmail ./. gmail prob (If I interpreted
headers well).

Gruß/regards
--
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images
(german version already started)



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Larry Gusaas Larry Gusaas
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Re: Communication in Mailinglist

In reply to this post by Christian Lohmaier (klammer)

On 2010/11/23 11:58 AM  Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> Hi Larry, *,
>
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Larry Gusaas<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> [...]
>> Gmail very capable for mailing lists.
> Except for the very one drawback you just demonstrated:
> When changing the subject, gmail will break the thread (start a new
> one) as it will remove the references from the reply.

1. I didn't post using gmail. I post and read this list through gmane. See the headers
"X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/" and "User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac
OS X 10.6; en-GB;
     rv:1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101027 Thunderbird/3.1.6".

2. I didn't change the subject, Friedrich Strohmaier changed it.

3. The references are still in the headers:

    References: <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]>
    <AANLkTi=[hidden email]>
    <[hidden email]>

4. My newsreader still show all posts to this thread properly sorted.





--
_____________________________________________________________________________


      Larry I. Gusaas

*Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan   Canada
Website:   http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese *



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Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
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Re: Communication in Mailinglist

In reply to this post by Friedrich Strohmaier
Hi Friedrich, *,

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 7:14 PM, Friedrich Strohmaier
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Christian Lohmaier schrieb:
>>On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Larry Gusaas <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> Gmail very capable for mailing lists.
>
>>Except for the very one drawback you just demonstrated:
>>When changing the subject, gmail will break the thread (start a new
>>one) as it will remove the references from the reply.
>
> Can't confirm. References are O.K. here.

I was fooled by the gmail address and by gmail showing it in a different thread.

Larry's message is OK, becasue it wasn't sent from within gmail, but via gmane.

> So it's an accidently damage or a gmail ./. gmail prob (If I interpreted
> headers well).

No, it is a general problem. Whenever you change the subject in gmail,
gmail removes the references and that causes a new thread.

And (that was new to me) it will also /display/ messages with
different subjects in a seperate thread. But that is apparently a new
thing/depends on other factors.

ciao
Christian

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Kevin Vermeer Kevin Vermeer
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Re: Communication in Mailinglist

In reply to this post by Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Christian Lohmaier <
[hidden email] <lohmaier%[hidden email]>>wrote:

> Hi Larry, *,
>
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Larry Gusaas <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > [...]
> > Gmail very capable for mailing lists.
>
> Except for the very one drawback you just demonstrated:
> When changing the subject, gmail will break the thread (start a new
> one) as it will remove the references from the reply.
>

This only happens on this list, because every subject is prepended with
[tdf-discuss] and some replies get  Re: inserted after it while others
insert the Re: before the [tdf-discuss] token, leading to four kinds of
subjects like:

1. [tdf-discuss] Communication in Mailinglist
2. Re: [tdf-discuss] Communication in Mailinglist
3. [tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist
4. Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist

Having these four different styles instead of just two is what causes
conversations to break. gmail (and possibly others) use the first and second
styles, and don't recognize that the third is a reply to the first,
generating the fourth.  What clients generate the third?

One solution to the problem is to agree on using either the second or third
style, and punish anyone who uses the banned version. This will be
difficult, as most people don't realize where the Re: goes in their own
replies, and some mail clients will default to the other version.  The
better solution in my mind is to remove the [tdf-discuss] part of the
subject.  I know it's the [tdf-discuss] mailing list because of the address
"[hidden email]" and the signature, and this information
doesn't have to be duplicated in the subject line.   Most modern mail
clients include some filter functionality to help differentiate between
mailing lists - browsing a list of subjects and expecting anyone who
communicates with you to label themselves with a token in brackets is rather
old-fashioned.  Also, having that token in every subject is redundant when
browsing properly filtered emails.
--
Kevin Vermeer

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Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
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Re: Communication in Mailinglist

In reply to this post by Larry Gusaas
Hi Larry, *,

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Larry Gusaas <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 2010/11/23 11:58 AM  Christian Lohmaier wrote:
>
> 2. I didn't change the subject, Friedrich Strohmaier changed it.

Oh yes, it was changed (but according to usual etiquette, thus was
very likely done by gmane itself)

It was changed from:

"[tdf-discuss] Communication in Mailinglist (was:Re: Request:
Installation Instructions)" (Friedrich)

To just "[tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist" (your post)

When changing subjects in usenet/mailinglists it is common to include
the old subject like this

New Subject (was: old subject)

and then remove the (was: old subject) in replies (also you usually
don't include the "Re:" in the old subject)

The point is you claimed gmail being "very capable" for mailinglists,
I usually agree, but the references issue bugs me.

ciao
Christian

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Larry Gusaas Larry Gusaas
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Re: Communication in Mailinglist


On 2010/11/23 12:29 PM  Christian Lohmaier wrote:

> Hi Larry, *,
>
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Larry Gusaas<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> On 2010/11/23 11:58 AM  Christian Lohmaier wrote:
>>
>> 2. I didn't change the subject, Friedrich Strohmaier changed it.
> Oh yes, it was changed (but according to usual etiquette, thus was
> very likely done by gmane itself)
>
> It was changed from:
>
> "[tdf-discuss] Communication in Mailinglist (was:Re: Request:
> Installation Instructions)" (Friedrich)
>
> To just "[tdf-discuss] Re: Communication in Mailinglist" (your post)
>

I had missed that. "(was:Re: Request: Installation Instructions)" was removed in my reply. I
just checked and it was removed by Thunderbird. It seems that Thunderbird automatically removes
the "was" part of the subject.

Not Gmail's or Gmane's fault.



--
_____________________________________________________________________________


      Larry I. Gusaas

*Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan   Canada
Website:   http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese *



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Re: Communication in Mailinglist

In reply to this post by Kevin Vermeer
On 2010/11/23 12:25 PM  Kevin Vermeer wrote:
> This only happens on this list, because every subject is prepended with
> [tdf-discuss] and some replies get  Re: inserted after it while others
> insert the Re: before the [tdf-discuss] token, leading to four kinds of
> subjects like:

Once again I am glad that I follow this list as a newsgroup through gmane. None of the post I
get have [tdf-discuss] in the subject line.

As for the insertion of the Re:, that is determined by the email client. Some insert it before,
some after [tdf-discuss].



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_____________________________________________________________________________


      Larry I. Gusaas

*Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan   Canada
Website:   http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese *



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Robert Holtzman Robert Holtzman
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:47:38AM +0930, Michael Wheatland wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Robert Holtzman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:31:58PM +0100, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> >> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 02:28:54PM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> >> > open to learning a *few* new things, it is extremely user friendly.
> >> > There is, however, a segment of the population that actively resists
> >> > learning *anything*.
> >>
> >> And that's a problem.
> >
> > I would say that's *the* problem.
> > Bob Holtzman
>
> The message does not seem to be getting through here.
> Simply: This type of personal criticism is unacceptable in the
> LibreOffice community.

Let's try getting my message through: It's not personal criticism when
it's not directed at an individual! It's an observation. End of
discussion!

--
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"

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Robert Holtzman Robert Holtzman
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Charles Marcus
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 09:13:16AM -0500, Charles Marcus wrote:

> On 2010-11-22 9:11 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:31:58PM +0100, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> >> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 02:28:54PM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> >>> There is, however, a segment of the population that actively resists
> >>> learning *anything*.
>
> >> And that's a problem.
>
> > I would say that's *the* problem.
>
> Why? People like this will *always* have a problem with *any* software
> updates that change *anything* - so, why worry about it?

Not worrried. Just an observation.

>
> Just keep improving the software (e.g., I was really happy to see the
> prompt for making the file associations for the Microsoft formats back
> in the GUI in the LibO 3.3b3 installer), improve the FAQ's and Help
> files and Installation instructions based on feedback from the user
> community, and don't worry about 'problems' that you have no control over.

Where in my post did I indicate that I was worried?

--
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Communication in Mailinglist (was:Re: Request: Installation Instructions)

In reply to this post by Friedrich Strohmaier
Thanks

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bedipp bedipp
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Rene Engelhard-3
Hi Rene, all,

it seems that your mail started an evolution in this thread leading to
negative feelings and reproaches that should be avoided.

The Steering Committee asked me and Cor Nouws to have a eye on this (and
the other lists we're subscribed to) in order to keep discussions on
topic and avoid misbehavior.

Sorry for stepping in so late, but I'm unable to be present 24 hours a
day...

Rene Engelhard schrieb:

> Hi,
>
> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 09:03:35AM -0600, Alexandro Colorado wrote:
>>> unsuspecting users to the same problem that OOo has been famous for:
>>> there is no obvious way to start to install the files.  Dependencies for
>
> dpkg -i *.deb?
>
>>> each .deb have to be met, but nothing indicates the order with which to
>>> install them.  When dealing with 52 .deb files it's like trying to do a
>>> jigsaw puzzle where all distinguishing marks have been filed off.
>
> Nope. Really, I expect anybody having root on a Debian-based system to know
> dpkg. Seriously.

This is your personal opinion, you didn't blame anybody - nothing to say
against it.

But as the follow-up turned out to become more personal, I want to add
my comments here (dedicated to all posters here in this thread):

Your expectation is only valid for yourself - you can't tell anybody
else to follow your opinion.

People with different experience and opinions should never be treated as
fools or idiots.

In a volunteer community nobody has the right to force anybody to do
something. If it might be a bug-fix, an addition to the readme, a piece
of documentation, artwork or (really necessary at the moment) work on
the LibreOffice website.

But on the other hand nobody is allowed to exclude a contribution just
because of his or her opinion, political or other interests. If there
are valid reasons they have to be discussed and decided - but this
should never be done by any individual.

I don't know if René's position not to include additional installation
instructions is shared by the majority of developers. It only shows that
we should have a closer look at the Community Bylaws.

The board deciding on including or excluding features and code
contributions is *not* the Engineering Steering Committee [ESC]. Their
task is "to provide technical guidance, settle technical disputes ..."

The Board of Directors [BoD] - elected by all approved members of
community - has to provide (among others) "strategic planning, dispute
settlement and community guidance", so it's their duty to find our
community's way if there are oppositional interests in different groups
of our community.

But normally our intentions are not controversial at all: We want to
improve our office suite, get more people to install and use it and find
new contributor and more high quality contributions.

So - to come back to the very topic here:

Thanks to David [1] there will be a bug filed to include his how-to
(might be based on NoOp's posting[2]) in the Linux version of LibreOffice.

I don't see a reason why René would have to be the one to do this
inclusion, if there is anybody else able to do so.

If there are more than personal reasons not to include it, this should
be mentioned in the bug report and brought back to this list for further
consideration. I think here on this list is the best mixture of "just"
users and people with profound knowledge of our product. I'd love to see
some input by our UX expert(s), but this seems to me a basic political
question: Do we want to make it as easy as possible to install and use
our product on every supported platform?

Only in case there is no common agreement on this topic the SC (being in
the position of the BoD until the first election) should be involved.

So please let's keep on the good work and avoid insulting each other
just because we're individual people with different opinions on one or
another topic.

Best regards

Bernhard

[1]: <http://go.mail-archive.com/eJqKKG7fNBgkKexh2MZnTm21RXA=>
[2]: <http://go.mail-archive.com/a2cePZ-wvSelzyGuwyfsWvRJhSM=>

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Kevin Vermeer Kevin Vermeer
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Re: Communication in Mailinglist

In reply to this post by Larry Gusaas
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Larry Gusaas <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 2010/11/23 12:25 PM  Kevin Vermeer wrote:
>
>> This only happens on this list, because every subject is prepended with
>> [tdf-discuss] and some replies get  Re: inserted after it while others
>> insert the Re: before the [tdf-discuss] token, leading to four kinds of
>> subjects like:
>>
>
> Once again I am glad that I follow this list as a newsgroup through gmane.
> None of the post I get have [tdf-discuss] in the subject line.
>
> As for the insertion of the Re:, that is determined by the email client.
> Some insert it before, some after [tdf-discuss].
>

Why does gmane remove it?  It's clearly a part of the subject, if you look
at the original headers.   Is filtering with tokens in square brackets a
standardized or recommended practice?  If so, I'll submit a bug report to
the gmail team, and that will be the end of it.

However, gmane is the only client I'm aware of that handles it in a special
way (based on the gmail web interface and Mozilla Thunderbird and Apple Mail
tools).  If the action it takes is to strip it, then why bother in the first
place?
--
Kevin Vermeer

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Re: Communication in Mailinglist


On 2010/11/23 8:31 PM  Kevin Vermeer wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Larry Gusaas<[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> On 2010/11/23 12:25 PM  Kevin Vermeer wrote:
>>
>>> This only happens on this list, because every subject is prepended with
>>> [tdf-discuss] and some replies get  Re: inserted after it while others
>>> insert the Re: before the [tdf-discuss] token, leading to four kinds of
>>> subjects like:
>>>
>> Once again I am glad that I follow this list as a newsgroup through gmane.
>> None of the post I get have [tdf-discuss] in the subject line.
>>
>> As for the insertion of the Re:, that is determined by the email client.
>> Some insert it before, some after [tdf-discuss].
>>
> Why does gmane remove it?  It's clearly a part of the subject, if you look
> at the original headers.

Nope. No [tdf-discuss] in the raw view when reading in a newsreader.

>     Is filtering with tokens in square brackets a
> standardized or recommended practice?  If so, I'll submit a bug report to
> the gmail team, and that will be the end of it.

What has gmail got to do with it?

> However, gmane is the only client I'm aware of that handles it in a special
> way (based on the gmail web interface and Mozilla Thunderbird and Apple Mail
> tools).

Gmane is a service to make mailing lists available through a NNTP News Server instead of as
emails. It also provides an archive service. It is not an email client.

>    If the action it takes is to strip it, then why bother in the first
> place?
Having the name of the list in the subject is redundant in a newsgroup. Each group (list) is
subscribed to separately and is receive by your newreader in a separate group. No filtering to
separate lists required. In contrast all emails would be put in your inbox unless you filter
them into individual folders.

None of the OOo lists I receive through Gmane have the list name in the subject even though the
email versions do.


--
_____________________________________________________________________________


      Larry I. Gusaas

*Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan   Canada
Website:   http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese *



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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by Rene Engelhard-3
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:49 PM, Rene Engelhard
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> And their quality is bad. Mentioning Ubuntu as an example here disqualifies
> you already.

In Your Humble Opinion.

Again please avoid attacks on individuals or groups of users. This
risks alienating a large group of users.

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Valter Mura (Google Drive) Valter Mura (Google Drive)
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Re: Request: Installation Instructions

In reply to this post by jonathon-3
In data lunedì 22 novembre 2010 17:57:46, jonathon ha scritto:

> On 11/22/2010 03:07 PM, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> > Because dpkg -i *.deb is esssentialy setup.exe.
>
> That would be true if, and only if there was _one_ deb to install, in
> which gdeb would by used, not dpkg.
>
> >Don't tell me anyone using Windows must not know setup.exe to install
>
> software?
>
> Out in the world of Joe Sixpack, autoexec.run on the CD/DVD/BluRay is
> the program that installs software.
>
> > There is no goddamn need for it.
>
> By that token, there in no need for _any_ program, on any os, other than
> emacs.
>
> >(That Ubuntu people in 90% of cases have no clue how they do basic
>
> system tasks doesn't make it more needed)
>
> That lack of knowledge makes it imperative that that how to install the
> files be included.  If that includes an explanation of how to use dpkg,
> so be it.

IMHO, everything must be explained for novices/newbies in Linux.

Regarding the Ubuntu system, a simple double click on a .deb package should
autorun the installation, but I also would ask the mantainers/developers of
the Ubuntu project to add Libò in their repositories. This should lead to a
quite smart installation for all people.

Ciao
--
Valter
Registered Linux User #466410  http://counter.li.org
Kubuntu Linux: www.kubuntu.org
OpenOffice.org: www.openoffice.org

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