Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

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Uwe Brauer Uwe Brauer
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Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO



From time to time the question pops up whether LO could support
Wordperfects reveal code. Sometimes it is stated that this feature could
be implemented by a macro/extension.

Now I remember that long time ago such macros existed and using the
wayback machine I found them. They were written around 2005 for OO 1.2,
using the sxw format.

I tried them out in LO 6.2 and they don't work.

Is there somebody with enough knownledge in macros to translate those
macros to LO 6.2?

Thanks and regards

Uwe Brauer

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Thorsten Behrens-6 Thorsten Behrens-6
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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

Hi Uwe,

Uwe Brauer wrote:
> Is there somebody with enough knownledge in macros to translate those
> macros to LO 6.2?
>
Perhaps - I'd suggest you upload them somewhere (provided they are
available under an open source license) & post a link here.

Preferably as a bug report at bugs.documentfoundation.org; you can
include a description on how to run them / what is expected to work
there.

All the best,

-- Thorsten

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Uwe Brauer Uwe Brauer
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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

>>> "TB" == Thorsten Behrens <[hidden email]> writes:

   > Hi Uwe,
   > Uwe Brauer wrote:
   >> Is there somebody with enough knownledge in macros to translate those
   >> macros to LO 6.2?
   >>
   > Perhaps - I'd suggest you upload them somewhere (provided they are
   > available under an open source license) & post a link here.

Whats about that?

They are under GPL

https://web.archive.org/web/20180326030224/http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/hillview/OOo/

   > Preferably as a bug report at bugs.documentfoundation.org; you can
   > include a description on how to run them / what is expected to work
   > there.

For that I most likely need 1.1 to run (not sure whether this is
possible to do under Ubuntu 16.04)

Uwe

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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Uwe Brauer
On 04/07/2019 11:08, Uwe Brauer wrote:
>
>  From time to time the question pops up whether LO could support
> Wordperfects reveal code. Sometimes it is stated that this feature could
> be implemented by a macro/extension.

Bear in mind that "reveal codes" is an EDITING window. That was what was
wrong with MS's pale imitation. So if your macros merely display the
formatting of a paragraph, that is NOT NOT NOT "reveal codes", and any
WordPerfect lover will simply ignore it.

And yes, I would dearly love to have reveal codes back - so much so that
I am seriously considering shelling out for an up-to-date copy of
WordPerfect, but sadly I suspect Corel have butchered it. WP8 was ported
to linux, but that requires libc5, and I'm not aware of any newer linux
compatible version (WP9, aka WP2000, was implemented on top of Wine, but
I've never managed to get Wine to run WordPerfect 8 or earlier, which
are the "real" versions. WP9 was the Corel Windows re-write - yeuch!!!)

Iirc Michael Meeks said that properly implementing reveal codes will be
quite tricky as it will need a major clean-up of the in-memory document
format to enable editing to work.

Cheers,
Wol
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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

On 05/07/19 03:15, Wol's lists wrote:

> On 04/07/2019 11:08, Uwe Brauer wrote:
>>
>>  From time to time the question pops up whether LO could support
>> Wordperfects reveal code. Sometimes it is stated that this feature could
>> be implemented by a macro/extension.
>
> Bear in mind that "reveal codes" is an EDITING window. That was what was
> wrong with MS's pale imitation. So if your macros merely display the
> formatting of a paragraph, that is NOT NOT NOT "reveal codes", and any
> WordPerfect lover will simply ignore it.

As a quick example - which illustrates its power - I seem to remember a
post to this list a week or so ago which said "if the first thing in a
writer document is a table, how do I put something in front of it?".
Word struggles with this, writer struggles with it ...

In WordPerfect, in RevealCodes, just click *in front* of the [table-on]
code, and start typing ... easy peasy !!!

Cheers,
Wol
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Andrew Pitonyak Andrew Pitonyak
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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

So I read your response to say...

If it is a read only display them it is not worth the time to bother with it...

That is certainly easier than trying to make it work :-)

Sent from BlueMail
On Jul 4, 2019, at 10:26 PM, Wols Lists <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 05/07/19 03:15, Wol's lists wrote:
On 04/07/2019 11:08, Uwe Brauer wrote:

From time to time the question pops up whether LO could support
Wordperfects reveal code. Sometimes it is stated that this feature could
be implemented by a macro/extension.

Bear in mind that "reveal codes" is an EDITING window. That was what was
wrong with MS's pale imitation. So if your macros merely display the
formatting of a paragraph, that is NOT NOT NOT "reveal codes", and any
WordPerfect lover will simply ignore it.

As a quick example - which illustrates its power - I seem to remember a
post to this list a week or so ago which said "if the first thing in a
writer document is a table, how do I put something in front of it?".
Word struggles with this, writer struggles with it ...

In WordPerfect, in RevealCodes, just click *in front* of the [table-on]
code, and start typing ... easy peasy !!!

Cheers,
Wol


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Uwe Brauer Uwe Brauer
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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

>>> "AP" == Andrew Pitonyak <[hidden email]> writes:

> So I read your response to say...
> If it is a read only display them it is not worth the time to bother with it...

> That is certainly easier than trying to make it work :-)

I would say, read only is a first step and if users start to like it
then maybe the developer are more inclined to make it editable too.

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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Wols Lists
>>> "Wl" == Wol's lists <[hidden email]> writes:

> On 04/07/2019 11:08, Uwe Brauer wrote:
>>
>> From time to time the question pops up whether LO could support
>> Wordperfects reveal code. Sometimes it is stated that this feature could
>> be implemented by a macro/extension.

> Bear in mind that "reveal codes" is an EDITING window. That was what
> was wrong with MS's pale imitation. So if your macros merely display
> the formatting of a paragraph, that is NOT NOT NOT "reveal codes", and
> any WordPerfect lover will simply ignore it.

> And yes, I would dearly love to have reveal codes back - so much so
> that I am seriously considering shelling out for an up-to-date copy of
> WordPerfect, but sadly I suspect Corel have butchered it. WP8 was
> ported to linux, but that requires libc5, and I'm not aware of any
> newer linux compatible version (WP9, aka WP2000, was implemented on
> top of Wine, but I've never managed to get Wine to run WordPerfect 8
> or earlier, which are the "real" versions. WP9 was the Corel Windows
> re-write - yeuch!!!)

You could try a virtual machine with Ubuntu 5.04 which still relies on
lib5c. ;-)


I managed to obtain the relevant WP files from some obscure ftp
server, but they don't run on Ubuntu 16.04 precisely on that reason.
If you manage to run them on a modern Ubuntu version, please let me know.

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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Uwe Brauer
On 05/07/19 09:16, Uwe Brauer wrote:

>>>> "AP" == Andrew Pitonyak <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> So I read your response to say...
>> If it is a read only display them it is not worth the time to bother with it...
>
>> That is certainly easier than trying to make it work :-)
>
> I would say, read only is a first step and if users start to like it
> then maybe the developer are more inclined to make it editable too.
>
Sorry but that completely misses the point. If it's read-only I won't
even bother to learn how to use it ...

Bear in mind this is a POWER USER tool. You're basically saying "if
users like Acrobat Reader we might re-write it to be like Word". Not
going to fly !!! You're suggesting *exactly* what MS did in the '95 time
frame, when all the power users howled how useless the Word version was,
and all the lusers didn't even realise it existed.

WordPerfect power users spend nearly all their time in Reveal Codes. I
had my screen split 2/3 Reveal Codes, 1/3 wysiwyg, and most of the time
I ignored the wysiwyg.

Think of people who used to work in things like Wordstar, using markup.
They used to print the document to see how it would come out. I used the
wysiwyg the same way. Reveal Codes is a markup editor, treating each
individual markup code as a single character so you can cursor past the
codes, double-click the code to bring up the dialog box to alter it, etc
etc.

Cheers,
Wol

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Uwe Brauer Uwe Brauer
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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO


   > On 05/07/19 09:16, Uwe Brauer wrote:
   > Sorry but that completely misses the point. If it's read-only I won't
   > even bother to learn how to use it ...

The point is:

Since almost 10 years people are demanding such a feature and nothing
happened.

All I am saying is: if a read only feature can be _easily implemented_,
then maybe more people will start even to consider such a feature as
being useful and the pressure to have it as «a power tool» will grow.

The alternative would be «shut up and how me your code», but I can't
provide you the feature you desire, because I know almost nothing about
LO internals.

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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Wols Lists
>>> "Wl" == Wol's lists <[hidden email]> writes:

   > On 04/07/2019 11:08, Uwe Brauer wrote:

   > And yes, I would dearly love to have reveal codes back - so much so
   > that I am seriously considering shelling out for an up-to-date copy of
   > WordPerfect, but sadly I suspect Corel have butchered it. WP8 was
   > ported to linux, but that requires libc5, and I'm not aware of any
   > newer linux compatible version (WP9, aka WP2000, was implemented on
   > top of Wine, but I've never managed to get Wine to run WordPerfect 8
   > or earlier, which are the "real" versions. WP9 was the Corel Windows
   > re-write - yeuch!!!)

Did you try this?
https://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-998675.html

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Kaganski Mike Kaganski Mike
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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Uwe Brauer
Hi!

On 04.07.2019 20:08, Uwe Brauer wrote:
>
>
>  From time to time the question pops up whether LO could support
> Wordperfects reveal code. Sometimes it is stated that this feature could
> be implemented by a macro/extension.
>
> Now I remember that long time ago such macros existed and using the
> wayback machine I found them. They were written around 2005 for OO 1.2,
> using the sxw format.

Great that you have interest for bringing the power features to LO.
I'm curious what the "reveal code" feature looks like in WP, and what it
looked like in OOo with the said macros?

Personally I would love to see a greatly reworked style manager, with
ability to show the settings applied to any piece of text in layers -
from most basic (paragraph style, with its inheritance) through possibly
several character styles, to the top manual formatting, where one could
easily see the structure - with all intermediate properties - of what we
see as the result. Possibly something like modern browsers' object
inspectors. But I'm afraid that there's no "codes" in LO (if I
understand it right - my understanding is that it shows something like
"xml tags" or some such) - and if I'm right, then trying to fake the
actual "property set"-based architecture into "codes" would result in
much effort with small output.

--
Best regards,
Mike Kaganski
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Dan Lewis Dan Lewis
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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Thorsten Behrens-6


On 7/4/19 8:06 AM, Thorsten Behrens wrote:
Hi Uwe,

Uwe Brauer wrote:
Is there somebody with enough knownledge in macros to translate those
macros to LO 6.2?

Perhaps - I'd suggest you upload them somewhere (provided they are
available under an open source license) & post a link here.

Preferably as a bug report at bugs.documentfoundation.org; you can
include a description on how to run them / what is expected to work
there.

All the best,

-- Thorsten

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I see in the two threads on this topic that there is a much discussion without looking at what is the basics of the ODT layout. I this is a mistake, and here is why.

I have some .sxw files from which I had earlier an .odt copy. From them I obtained the following information:

This is the ODT layout:

Which types of data source can OpenOffice.org use?
    • A database server  using Java Database Connectivity (JDBC).
    • A database server using Open Database Connectivity (ODBC).
    • The built-in dbase source.
    • The built-in Adabas source.
    • ActiveX data objects (ADO) -only available on Windows.
    • Text files.
    • Spreadsheets.
    • Address Books.
The help manual that comes with OpenOffice.org does a good job of describing these data sources and how to connect to them. Use Help>Contents>Database Functionality>Data Sources.

This is the styles markup of it:

<text:p text:style-name="P3">Which types of data source can OpenOffice.org use?
 </text:p>
 <text:unordered-list text:style-name="L1">
      <text:list-item>
           <text:p text:style-name="P4">A database server
               <text:s/>using Java Database Connectivity (JDBC).
            </text:p>
    </text:list-item>
    <text:list-item>
        <text:p text:style-name="P4">A database server using Open Database Connectivity (ODBC).
        </text:p>
    </text:list-item>
    <text:list-item>
         <text:p text:style-name="P4">The built-in dbase source.   
         </text:p>
    </text:list-item>
    <text:list-item>
        <text:p text:style-name="P4">The built-in Adabas source.
        </text:p>
    </text:list-item>
    <text:list-item>
        <text:p text:style-name="P4">ActiveX data objects (ADO) -only available on Windows.
        </text:p>
    </text:list-item>
    <text:list-item>
        <text:p text:style-name="P4">Text files.
        </text:p>
    </text:list-item>
    <text:list-item>
        <text:p text:style-name="P4">Spreadsheets.
        </text:p>
    </text:list-item>
    <text:list-item>
        <text:p text:style-name="P3">Which types of data source can OpenOffice.org use? </text:p>
<text:unordered-list text:style-name="L1">
    <text:list-item><text:p text:style-name="P4">A database server
        <text:s/>using Java Database Connectivity (JDBC).
    </text:p>
    </text:list-item><text:list-item>
        <text:p text:style-name="P4">A database server using Open Database Connectivity (ODBC).
        </text:p>
    </text:list-item><text:list-item>
        <text:p text:style-name="P4">The built-in dbase source.   
        </text:p>
    </text:list-item><text:list-item>
        <text:p text:style-name="P4">The built-in Adabas source.
        </text:p>
    </text:list-item><text:list-item>
        <text:p text:style-name="P4">ActiveX data objects (ADO) -only available on Windows.
        </text:p></text:list-item><text:list-item>
        <text:p text:style-name="P4">Text files.
        </text:p>
    </text:list-item><text:list-item>
        <text:p text:style-name="P4">Spreadsheets.
        </text:p>
    </text:list-item><text:list-item>
        <text:p text:style-name="P4">Address Books.
        </text:p>
    </text:list-item></text:unordered-list>
        <text:p text:style-name="P5">The help manual that comes with OpenOffice.org does a good job of describing these data sources and how to connect to them. Use Help&gt;Contents&gt;Database Functionality&gt;Data Sources.
        </text:p>Address Books.
        </text:p>
    </text:list-item>
</text:unordered-list>
<text:p text:style-name="P5">The help manual that comes with OpenOffice.org does a good job of describing these data sources and how to connect to them. Use Help&gt;Contents&gt;Database Functionality&gt;Data Sources.
</text:p>

The markup comes directly from the Content.xml file of either the .sxw or .odt file. I should mention for those who wondered but did not know: the mark up for both files (.sxw, its .odt copy) is identical. To open the Content.xml, rename the .odt or .sxw file to .zip. Then unzip it. When opening Content.xml, use a browser or similar program which will give you an outline layout.

Each of these styles (L1, P3, P4, P5) are defined in the beginning lines of Content.xml. For example, L1 contains the styles for "List 1"; P3 contains the styles for "Heading 3". P4 and P5 both use the paragraph style "text body"; P4 also contains the list-item style "L1". Search for P4 in the Content.xml beginning from the top to see this.

Looking at the markup above, I do not see any way to get "reveal codes". I do think a macro is possible which would reveal the styles used for a given part of a document in outline form as above. It would have to gather that information from the Content.xml file. Could it then expand the name of given style such as L1, P3, P4, p5 so that it would appear in place of the style name?

For example, <text:p text:style-name="P4"> becomes
<style:style style:name="P4" style:family="paragraph" style:parent-style-name="Text body" style:list-style-name="L1"> (This would replace the tag used in the text with the tag used in the list of definitions at the beginning of Content.xml.

Comments: Perhaps this could be called "reveal styles"? Also one personal point that I learned back when OOo 1.14 was the latest version: Do not use direct formatting for any reason. That is what styles are for. In the long run, direct formatting does not save any time even when you make no errors with them. But needing to change some of the direct formatting can be very time consuming!

A few years ago, someone needed a "pamphlet" formatted which I did for her using styles. Later she wanted to change some of the characteristics of a heading. All I had to do was to change the settings for that heading style. This took seconds, and all of that particular heading now had been changed. Going through over 50 pages to change each heading separately would have taken much longer. (OK, I will get down off my soapbox now.)

Dan


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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Uwe Brauer
On 05/07/19 13:15, Uwe Brauer wrote:

>>>> "Wl" == Wol's lists <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>    > On 04/07/2019 11:08, Uwe Brauer wrote:
>
>    > And yes, I would dearly love to have reveal codes back - so much so
>    > that I am seriously considering shelling out for an up-to-date copy of
>    > WordPerfect, but sadly I suspect Corel have butchered it. WP8 was
>    > ported to linux, but that requires libc5, and I'm not aware of any
>    > newer linux compatible version (WP9, aka WP2000, was implemented on
>    > top of Wine, but I've never managed to get Wine to run WordPerfect 8
>    > or earlier, which are the "real" versions. WP9 was the Corel Windows
>    > re-write - yeuch!!!)
>
> Did you try this?
> https://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-998675.html
>
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

I've never seen that, but I've got the linux WP8 somewhere, plus licence
keys, so I'll have to try. I run gentoo, so it'll be a bit different,
but ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Uwe Brauer
On 05/07/19 13:14, Uwe Brauer wrote:

>
>    > On 05/07/19 09:16, Uwe Brauer wrote:
>    > Sorry but that completely misses the point. If it's read-only I won't
>    > even bother to learn how to use it ...
>
> The point is:
>
> Since almost 10 years people are demanding such a feature and nothing
> happened.
>
> All I am saying is: if a read only feature can be _easily implemented_,
> then maybe more people will start even to consider such a feature as
> being useful and the pressure to have it as «a power tool» will grow.

And all I am saying is that the feature you describe sounds to me
NOTHING LIKE reveal codes, and personally I can't see any use for it.
The Word equivalent is "show formatting" which - like I said - was
ignored by lusers and power users alike because they couldn't see any
use for it.

Do you know lilypond and frescobaldi? That can be set up so that you
work in a text editor, and the output is constantly updated in a pdf.
THAT is what I want in "reveal codes" - not something that tells me what
the formatting is, but something that *lets me work in a text window*
but shows me what the result will look like. Your macros mean I'm still
stuck in the wysiwyg windows where I *D*O*N*T* want to be, so why would
I be interested in your code?

Sorry but everybody who tries to implement a reveal-codes-alike always
seems to focus on the fact that it shows you what the formatting is.
They always miss the fact that it ALSO allows you to EDIT said
formatting, and *this* is what power users value (and as I say lusers
don't value the fact that you can see the formatting, which means that
nobody values that).
>
> The alternative would be «shut up and how me your code», but I can't
> provide you the feature you desire, because I know almost nothing about
> LO internals.
>
Well, all I know about LO internals is that Michael Meeks said it would
be a very big job to refactor everything so that a real "reveal codes"
was even possible :-(

Cheers,
Wol
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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Wols Lists

> On 05/07/19 13:15, Uwe Brauer wrote:
> THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

> I've never seen that, but I've got the linux WP8 somewhere, plus licence
> keys, so I'll have to try. I run gentoo, so it'll be a bit different,
> but ... :-)

BTW, the relevant files mentioned, you will find via
https://archive.org/web/

If you are successful please let me know.

The problem of course is, this is WP from 2005, so you most likely won't
be able to open recent MS Word documents.[1]

Regards

Uwe

Footnotes:
[1]  BTW, it was a MS Word document, which I had to edit and which drove
me crazy because the mark up was distorted by LO. This was one of
the reasons why I thought reveal code would be useful, to get a
hint what is wrong and where. Finally I could edit the file in kingsoffice.


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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Wols Lists

> On 05/07/19 13:14, Uwe Brauer wrote:

> And all I am saying is that the feature you describe sounds to me
> NOTHING LIKE reveal codes, and personally I can't see any use for it.
> The Word equivalent is "show formatting" which - like I said - was
> ignored by lusers and power users alike because they couldn't see any
> use for it.

My motivation was partiall caused by a MS Word document, which I had to
edit and the mark up was distorted by LO (most likely this file was
written 15 ago and then saved in different formats). So I hoped a reveal
code feature would help to understand what is the problem and where.

> Do you know lilypond and frescobaldi?

I am using LaTeX on a daily basis (with GNU Emacs) and use LO and
friends only on certain occasions. So you don't have to convince me on that.

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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Uwe Brauer
No. There are no "codes" to "reveal" in LibreOffice.

If you want to use a markup format, use a markup format, in a plain text editor. Simple as that. LaTeX for instance.

--tml

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Uwe Brauer Uwe Brauer
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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

>>> "TL" == Tor Lillqvist <[hidden email]> writes:

> No. There are no "codes" to "reveal" in LibreOffice.
> If you want to use a markup format, use a markup format, in a plain text
> editor. Simple as that. LaTeX for instance.

I think you miss the point and I am saying that as long time user of
latex, (daily  basis) using GNU emacs.

The issue is, what if you force to deal with docx and you run into
problems? Then that feature might be useful.

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Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO



The issue is, what if you force to deal with docx and you run into
problems? 

The data structure inside a .docx has very little relationship to the internal data structures inside LO, so it would be extremely hard to display "codes" from the .docx in the LibreOffice UI.

What you can do is unzip the .docx, edit the .xml files inside, update them into the .docx? For some specific mechanical mass changes, or trivial detail changes, that you can't do in LO, might work.

--tml

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