Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
35 messages Options
12 « Prev
Wols Lists Wols Lists
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

On 06/07/19 10:27, Tor Lillqvist wrote:
>
>
>     The issue is, what if you force to deal with docx and you run into
>     problems?
>
>
> The data structure inside a .docx has very little relationship to the
> internal data structures inside LO, so it would be extremely hard to
> display "codes" from the .docx in the LibreOffice UI.

Like wise between Word and WordPerfect. But personally, I don't care
about that. The structure in Reveal Codes is a perfect match for a
WordPerfect document. I would like a Reveal-Codes-like window in Writer
that is a perfect match for Writer documents. It just makes working in
your word processor of choice *SO* much easier.
>
> What you can do is unzip the .docx, edit the .xml files inside, update
> them into the .docx? For some specific mechanical mass changes, or
> trivial detail changes, that you can't do in LO, might work.
>
My biggest uses for reveal codes were (a) it was my editing window of
choice, (b) when somebody comes to you for help you *can* *see* *WHY*
their document wasn't doing what they expected, and (c) it gave me
*complete* control of whatever I was doing.

When the company I worked for moved to Word, it was forever doing all
sorts of weird things, and especially when trying to provide support to
other users, it was an ABSOLUTE NIGHTMARE because you had no way of
finding out WHY (and hence stopping) Word from doing all those stupid
things you didn't want.

Oh - and when you were helping another user "fix" their document, you
didn't need to know where in the menus / on the keypad all these
functions were that they were using that you didn't know where they'd
came from. You just double-clicked on the code, and it opened up the
configuration window. Or you just deleted the code and the formatting
went away. etc etc.

Cheers,
Wol
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Uwe Brauer Uwe Brauer
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Tor Lillqvist-2
>>> "TL" == Tor Lillqvist <[hidden email]> writes:

>>
>>
>>
>> The issue is, what if you force to deal with docx and you run into
>> problems?


> The data structure inside a .docx has very little relationship to the
> internal data structures inside LO, so it would be extremely hard to
> display "codes" from the .docx in the LibreOffice UI.

> What you can do is unzip the .docx, edit the .xml files inside, update them
> into the .docx? For some specific mechanical mass changes, or trivial
> detail changes, that you can't do in LO, might work.

That I tried of course, I even installed the oxygen xml editor, but it
was hopeless. The xml files of the docx where just a mess.

_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

smime.p7s (6K) Download Attachment
Wols Lists Wols Lists
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Uwe Brauer
On 06/07/19 07:36, Uwe Brauer wrote:

>
>> On 05/07/19 13:14, Uwe Brauer wrote:
>
>> And all I am saying is that the feature you describe sounds to me
>> NOTHING LIKE reveal codes, and personally I can't see any use for it.
>> The Word equivalent is "show formatting" which - like I said - was
>> ignored by lusers and power users alike because they couldn't see any
>> use for it.
>
> My motivation was partiall caused by a MS Word document, which I had to
> edit and the mark up was distorted by LO (most likely this file was
> written 15 ago and then saved in different formats). So I hoped a reveal
> code feature would help to understand what is the problem and where.

Sonething I heard years ago when comparing Word and WordPerfect ... when
working with Word, what you're supposed to do is type the text in, then
go back and format it. When working with WordPerfect, you're supposed to
hint to the program what the text is (sounds like styles to me), and let
WordPerfect format it for you.

So if you've got a Word document giving you grief, sounds like the best
thing is to "save as text", and then just start again with the layout.
>
>> Do you know lilypond and frescobaldi?
>
> I am using LaTeX on a daily basis (with GNU Emacs) and use LO and
> friends only on certain occasions. So you don't have to convince me on that.
>
I'd rather use a modern word processor (so I can share documents with
lusers) that doesn't force me to work in "luser mode". That was why
WordPerfect doubled its market share in the early 90s (20% to 40% in
about 3 years) before MS pulled its dirty tricks campaign and killed it.

An example of the difference between the two companies ... users wanted
labels. The WordPerfect guys said "what actually is the functionality
here - users want a *logical* page which is a label, and lots of them on
a *physical* page which is your Avery sheet. So that's what they did,
they separated the physical from the logical, and provided a
"quick-n-easy" configuration helper so you could just pull in the
correct setting, or create your own. Next minute, people were using this
to create A5 logical pages on A4 physical and printing off booklets. MS
created a labels wizard, and then then created a booklet wizard (both of
which I hate, because they are luser tools that force me to do what MS
thinks I want rather than what I think I want). Okay, WordPerfect then
created a booklet wizard that took all the printing hassle away, but the
difference is that WP *helped* you, while MS said "this is the way you
have to do it".

Plus I'm a *text* guy. MS is very much a *visual* company (as are most
people, actually). So the MS way of doing things is alien to me - the WP
way of "here's a gui, this drops into the text setup behind it" is just
*so* *easy*.

Another little thing (that illustrates this) is "hidden text". MS
thought they would add the "comments" feature, but yet again it's a pale
imitation that is a *useless* copy. Keeping a quiz sheet and an answer
sheet in sync is a pain in the neck, isn't it? Not in WordPerfect it
isn't!!! You just create your answer sheet, adding the attribute "hidden
text" to all your answers - just like the attributes "bold" or "italic"
or whatever. And in the "View" menu is a check-box "show hidden text".
If that's ticked, all the hidden text behaves exactly like normal text.
If it's unticked, it all disappears into a markup box. So you just print
the same document twice, once in each mode, and there's your quiz sheet
you hand out, and your answer sheet for you to give them out at the end.
I'd LOVE to have that in LO, too. But without reveal codes, how are you
going to get it to work? Because how are you going to show hidden text
in your wysiwyg window because if the box isn't ticked there's nowhere
to show it?

I use Writer because I hate it less than Word. But both of them share
the same visual outlook on life, which I want to get away from ...

Cheers,
Wol
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Tor Lillqvist-2 Tor Lillqvist-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

You seem to hate a lot. Try to get over it.

--tml

_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Ralf Quint Ralf Quint
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

On 7/6/2019 1:00 PM, Tor Lillqvist wrote:
> You seem to hate a lot. Try to get over it.
+1

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Anthony Youngman-2 Anthony Youngman-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

On 06/07/2019 22:31, Ralf Quint wrote:
> On 7/6/2019 1:00 PM, Tor Lillqvist wrote:
>> You seem to hate a lot. Try to get over it.
> +1
>
>
I'm a bit of a "grumpy old man", sorry ... :-)

Cheers,

Wol
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Uwe Brauer Uwe Brauer
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Wols Lists

> On 06/07/19 07:36, Uwe Brauer wrote:


> Plus I'm a *text* guy. MS is very much a *visual* company (as are most
> people, actually). So the MS way of doing things is alien to me - the WP
> way of "here's a gui, this drops into the text setup behind it" is just
> *so* *easy*.

If you are really a *text* guy, I'd recommend you to give GNU emacs a
shot. Nowadays it comes with org mode, which is a sort of ASCII/UTF8
based enhanced text mode, including a very good table editor and best of
all you can export it to all sort of formats, odt for example, if you
use pandoc you can even save it to docx.

https://orgmode.org/


_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

smime.p7s (6K) Download Attachment
Dennis Roczek Dennis Roczek
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Uwe Brauer
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256


Hi everybody,

For the reference: we have a bug report since 2011
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=34002
and the corresponding openoffice bug report from 2002 is linked in the
ticket...

Best regards,

Dennis Roczek

On 04.07.2019 12:08, Uwe Brauer wrote:

>
>
> From time to time the question pops up whether LO could support
> Wordperfects reveal code. Sometimes it is stated that this feature could
> be implemented by a macro/extension.
>
> Now I remember that long time ago such macros existed and using the
> wayback machine I found them. They were written around 2005 for OO 1.2,
> using the sxw format.
>
> I tried them out in LO 6.2 and they don't work.
>
> Is there somebody with enough knownledge in macros to translate those
> macros to LO 6.2?
>
> Thanks and regards
>
> Uwe Brauer
>
> _______________________________________________
> LibreOffice mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - https://www.enigmail.net/
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=3yAy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Tor Lillqvist-2 Tor Lillqvist-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO


For the reference: we have a bug report since 2011
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=34002
and the corresponding openoffice bug report from 2002 is linked in the
ticket...

Which should be a good indication that the request is unreasonable.

--tml 

_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Dennis Roczek Dennis Roczek
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256


Hi Tor,

On 07.07.2019 18:06, Tor Lillqvist wrote:
>
>     For the reference: we have a bug report since 2011
>     https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=34002
>     and the corresponding openoffice bug report from 2002 is linked in
 the
>     ticket...
>
>
> Which should be a good indication that the request is unreasonable.
Well or nobody wanted to invest the money/time in such a specialized fea
ture
and "better" invest the same time / money for "interoperability" of MS
formats.

It is a specialized feature for power users and thus the amount of
potential users is very, VERY low. But that doesn't mean that the "few
users" of this feature would fell in love. Hence read the forum entries:
there are so many users who try to get the old WordPrefect somehow
working...

It is similar to old Opera12 users using the browser for special cases
and miss many of these features in other browsers (luckily finally
Vivaldi is catching up as a drop-in-replacement!)

> --tml

Best,

Dennis
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - https://www.enigmail.net/
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=hWHU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Wols Lists Wols Lists
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Dennis Roczek
On 07/07/19 16:42, Dennis Roczek wrote:
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> For the reference: we have a bug report since 2011
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=34002
> and the corresponding openoffice bug report from 2002 is linked in the
> ticket...
>
I notice the bug report mentions being able to edit/delete the
formatting codes. If the macros implement THAT then this sounds a lot
more promising.

Cheers,
Wol
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Wols Lists Wols Lists
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Tor Lillqvist-2
On 07/07/19 17:06, Tor Lillqvist wrote:
>
>     For the reference: we have a bug report since 2011
>     https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=34002
>     and the corresponding openoffice bug report from 2002 is linked in the
>     ticket...
>
>
> Which should be a good indication that the request is unreasonable.
>
I think you mean "impractical" :-(

How is it unreasonable for support guys to want to be able to debug
their lusers' documents?

How is it unreasonable for people like me to want to use a modern word
processor, but be able to use it in a manner that we are comfortable,
rather than be forced into a "one size fits all" extremely uncomfortable
fairy tale bed ...

I was serious when I suggested that Uwe's best case for fixing his
documents was to "save as plain text" and start again. Bit tricky if the
document is full of graphics and other stuff ...

Cheers,
Wol

_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Dan Lewis Dan Lewis
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO


On 7/7/19 4:35 PM, Wols Lists wrote:

> On 07/07/19 17:06, Tor Lillqvist wrote:
>>      For the reference: we have a bug report since 2011
>>      https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=34002
>>      and the corresponding openoffice bug report from 2002 is linked in the
>>      ticket...
>>
>>
>> Which should be a good indication that the request is unreasonable.
>>
> I think you mean "impractical" :-(
>
> How is it unreasonable for support guys to want to be able to debug
> their lusers' documents?
>
> How is it unreasonable for people like me to want to use a modern word
> processor, but be able to use it in a manner that we are comfortable,
> rather than be forced into a "one size fits all" extremely uncomfortable
> fairy tale bed ...
>
> I was serious when I suggested that Uwe's best case for fixing his
> documents was to "save as plain text" and start again. Bit tricky if the
> document is full of graphics and other stuff ...
>
> Cheers,
> Wol

I now possess a copy of the offending .docx document and the PDF version
of it. (It contains 1.6MB, so it will take some time.) Tomorrow, I will
be determining what is necessary to fix it. Rather than guess as to what
would be required, I will find out. I think this would be much more
useful for others.  I will report back when I am finished.

Additional observation as in a personal opinion: this discussion has
grown to a great length without really solving the problem. Such was the
case for similar discussions before. (I seem to remember that one time
it involved OOo prior to 3.0.)

One thing I do know: an .odt file is based on styles. The only codes
that are used are styles. This is obvious when looking at the
Content.xml file in the .odt zipped file. Word Perfect has a different
set of codes which it uses. I do not see any correlation between the
two. Without this, how can a do more than pretend to convert LO's
styles  from WP's "reveal codes"?

Dan

_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Wols Lists Wols Lists
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

On 08/07/19 03:04, Dan Lewis wrote:
> One thing I do know: an .odt file is based on styles. The only codes
> that are used are styles. This is obvious when looking at the
> Content.xml file in the .odt zipped file. Word Perfect has a different
> set of codes which it uses. I do not see any correlation between the
> two. Without this, how can a do more than pretend to convert LO's
> styles  from WP's "reveal codes"?

I don't get this ,,, which could be why this thread has been so long.

WordPerfect has styles. Reveal Codes is nothing really to do with
styles. Unless of course this is the old chestnut of "people use reveal
codes to see the formatting".

Would you call "bold" a style? Would you call a graphics box a style?

The point is, reveal codes showed all of this. So if I used styles for
my document, in my reveal codes window I might see

[style:chapter:on]Chapter 1[style:chapter:off]

or if I didn't know about styles particularly it would be

[bold:on]Chapter 1[bold:off]

and if I double-clicked the [chapter] "character" it would call up the
style definition dialog, while if I clicked the [bold] "character" it
would call up the font format dialog.

A picture would appear as a character something like [graphics box:URI].
Etc etc.

Can I ask how many people here have actually *used* WordPerfect and
Reveal Codes, and how many people are simply going on what they've been
told about reveal codes?

Reveal Codes is a markup window. Those markups might happen to be
styles. They might not.

Cheers,
Wol
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Uwe Brauer Uwe Brauer
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Reveal code, old macros convert them to LO

In reply to this post by Dan Lewis

> On 7/7/19 4:35 PM, Wols Lists wrote:

> I now possess a copy of the offending .docx document and the PDF
> version of it. (It contains 1.6MB, so it will take some time.)
> Tomorrow, I will be determining what is necessary to fix it. Rather
> than guess as to what would be required, I will find out. I think this
> would be much more useful for others.  I will report back when I am
> finished.

I will be grateful, but I am afraid this document is beyond help,
however I have to deal with it, that is to modify and to save so that
other MS Word users can read and print it.



_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

smime.p7s (6K) Download Attachment
12 « Prev