Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

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Alexander Wilms Alexander Wilms
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Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

Hi all,

it's been a while since the last time I wrote something on the mailing
list, sorry for that.

I think that templates are very important for users who want
good-looking documents without spending a lot of time on the design. The
current Ui to manage templates looks quite cluttered and not too
appealing. Thats why I created this mock-up:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework

What do you think?

Alex


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Olivier Hallot Olivier Hallot
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi

Em 21-02-2012 14:41, Alexander Wilms escreveu:

> Hi all,
>
> it's been a while since the last time I wrote something on the mailing
> list, sorry for that.
>
> I think that templates are very important for users who want
> good-looking documents without spending a lot of time on the design. The
> current Ui to manage templates looks quite cluttered and not too
> appealing. Thats why I created this mock-up:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework
>
> What do you think?
>
> Alex
>

...has the merit to open the discussion on the actual stupid template
management dialog/menus... 10 years of LibreOffice and I am still
confused by the twisted mind that designed it. I must have missed
something really basic all this time. Why on earth do we have to deal
with address book in organizing templates?  Why acess files in the New
templates dialog?

Keep going. That will be a major hit for 3.6

- --
Olivier Hallot
Founder, Board of Directors Member - The Document Foundation
LibreOffice translation leader for Brazilian Portuguese
+55-21-8822-8812
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Cedric Bosdonnat Cedric Bosdonnat
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

Hi Alex, Olivier,

On Tue, 2012-02-21 at 17:09 -0200, Olivier Hallot wrote:

> Hi
>
> Em 21-02-2012 14:41, Alexander Wilms escreveu:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > it's been a while since the last time I wrote something on the mailing
> > list, sorry for that.
> >
> > I think that templates are very important for users who want
> > good-looking documents without spending a lot of time on the design. The
> > current Ui to manage templates looks quite cluttered and not too
> > appealing. Thats why I created this mock-up:
> > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Alex
> >
>
> ...has the merit to open the discussion on the actual stupid template
> management dialog/menus... 10 years of LibreOffice and I am still
> confused by the twisted mind that designed it. I must have missed
> something really basic all this time. Why on earth do we have to deal
> with address book in organizing templates?  Why acess files in the New
> templates dialog?
>
> Keep going. That will be a major hit for 3.6

I had in mind to change that sooner or later... just a matter of getting
some time to do the changes ;)

What I had in mind is pretty close to the mockup on the wiki... thought
I wanted to:
  * Have this dialog instead of File > New menu
  * Have the blank documents in that dialog too
  * Some tag-sorting feature on the templates
  * Mix all online and local templates in the same dialog for it to be
transparent to the user.
  * I would have tried to show the tags on a list / tree on the side of
the dialog, and wouldn't have used tabs to separate the applications:
for it to replace File > New submenu it needs to provide quick access to
at least the blank files creation.

For the connection to the templates repository, I'ld love to see
something using the CMIS protocol as this could allow us to easily
plug-in to any entreprise shared templates repository (or the LO online
templates someday when it'll support CMIS protocol).

I hope that helps,
--
Cedric


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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

Hi Cedric, hi Alex, all!

@ Cedric: I had to moderate your mail.

Hey, a great step forward :-) I'd like to add some thoughts and
information that has been collected some time ago.

Am Mittwoch, den 22.02.2012, 09:11 +0100 schrieb Cedric Bosdonnat:
> On Tue, 2012-02-21 at 17:09 -0200, Olivier Hallot wrote:
> > Em 21-02-2012 14:41, Alexander Wilms escreveu:
[...]
> > > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework
> >
> > ...has the merit to open the discussion on the actual stupid template
> > management dialog/menus... 10 years of LibreOffice and I am still
> > confused by the twisted mind that designed it. I must have missed
> > something really basic all this time. Why on earth do we have to deal
> > with address book in organizing templates?  Why acess files in the New
> > templates dialog?

Some years ago, there has been an effort within the OpenOffice.org
project to improve the template handling situation. Although it might be
a bit outdated now, I think it would be a very valuable resource for
further information.
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Feature_-_Templates

Please also note the archive file at the bottom of the page which
contains screenshots of various applications offering templates.

Alex, I have printed out those wiki page long time ago and added some
usability related comments. If you understand German, I can send you a
PDF of those pages ... any interest?

Furthermore, there should be some usage data available for that
dialog ... from OOo times.

> > Keep going. That will be a major hit for 3.6
>
> I had in mind to change that sooner or later... just a matter of getting
> some time to do the changes ;)
>
> What I had in mind is pretty close to the mockup on the wiki... thought
> I wanted to:
>   * Have this dialog instead of File > New menu
>   * Have the blank documents in that dialog too
>   * Some tag-sorting feature on the templates
>   * Mix all online and local templates in the same dialog for it to be
> transparent to the user.
>   * I would have tried to show the tags on a list / tree on the side of
> the dialog, and wouldn't have used tabs to separate the applications:
> for it to replace File > New submenu it needs to provide quick access to
> at least the blank files creation.

I would like to add another thought. I notice recent changes (in the
master) / proposals (in Bugzilla) for e.g. the About dialog. It would be
a pity if we miss this chance for harmonization ... so maybe we could
create a "reference" layout that could be reused. Here an example how
this could look like (differnt theming, different product, different
windows ... but however):
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:ChristophNoack/Drafts/WelcomeCenter_2010

> For the connection to the templates repository, I'ld love to see
> something using the CMIS protocol as this could allow us to easily
> plug-in to any entreprise shared templates repository (or the LO online
> templates someday when it'll support CMIS protocol).

++1 :-)

Alex, given the very good feedback and the additional thoughts ...
wouldn't it be helpful to add a whiteboard page in the wiki to collect
such proposals / requirements? Could you please do that?

Cheers,
Christoph


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Alexander Wilms Alexander Wilms
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

In reply to this post by Cedric Bosdonnat
Hi Olivier, Cedric, Christoph,

Thanks for your encouragement :)

I updated the whiteboard
(https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework#Visual_Design_and_Behavior)
taking your comments and links into consideration.

I feel that one should primarily make use of predefined categories,
since a huge number of tags can easily get out of control. They should
instead be used to improve the search.

It is possible to access Plone via CMIS using a library, but Andreas is
currently working on a Plone extension that makes it easier to use the
template repository.

Christoph, do you have a picture of the new info window? I don't know if
we need further branding in the templates' view, but I tried to make
both dialogues look similar (cf. whiteboard).

I am German, so reading those Wiki pages shouldn't be too much of a
hassle ;). Maybe you could upload the pdf somewhere and link it in the
whiteboard page so that anyone can easily access it.

Kind Regards

Alex




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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

Hi Alexander!

Am Mittwoch, den 22.02.2012, 17:22 +0100 schrieb Alexander Wilms:
> Hi Olivier, Cedric, Christoph,
>
> Thanks for your encouragement :)

Go go go! ;-)

> I updated the whiteboard
> (https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework#Visual_Design_and_Behavior)
> taking your comments and links into consideration.

Thanks!

> I feel that one should primarily make use of predefined categories,
> since a huge number of tags can easily get out of control. They should
> instead be used to improve the search.

Well, if we can define a reasonable set of categories / tags, then these
could be applied for both the Extension Center and LibreOffice - this
would surely help users.

But I'm less sure about that for the corporate world ... companies
always have own definitions how to categorize templates / documents.

By the way, aren't the "tags" very similar to the "keywords" in the
documents?

> It is possible to access Plone via CMIS using a library, but Andreas is
> currently working on a Plone extension that makes it easier to use the
> template repository.
>
> Christoph, do you have a picture of the new info window? I don't know if
> we need further branding in the templates' view, but I tried to make
> both dialogues look similar (cf. whiteboard).

Thanks! The proposed dialog is part of the following issue tracker
entry: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31022

Personally, I think that it doesn't fully fit to the branding language
we have defined so far ... although I have to say that LibreOffice (e.g.
the splashscreen) doesn't meet those requirements ;-)))

So maybe we should first focus on the content of the dialog and think
about the visual design a bit later. But what I'd like to know from you
guys is, whether it is desirable to have (at the end) consistent dialogs
that may contain a bit branding / visual design.

> I am German, so reading those Wiki pages shouldn't be too much of a
> hassle ;). Maybe you could upload the pdf somewhere and link it in the
> whiteboard page so that anyone can easily access it.

Sorry, I haven't been clear enough ... the wiki pages are English, but
my personal comments are German. Personal means that the wording is
incompatible with public availability. So if these comments seem helpful
to you, then I'm happy to update some and put them into the whiteboard
page.

Last mail for today ... so have a nice day!

Cheers,
Christoph


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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

Hi everyone,
If I may chime in with my 2 cents here:
I preferred the original mockup -- simple, clean, beautiful, puts the focus
on template thumbnails.

Frankly, I don't think a complex categorical view is necessary -- I would
venture to guess that most people rarely touch templates, if at all, and
therefore it's highly unlikely that someone will have 1000 Writer templates
he needs to sort out into custom categories. And if one really has that
many templates, he's better off using search. (BTW, a 100 templates per
application is quite manageable with the previous mockup in a maximized
window: a simple 10x10 grid. Or 5x20 when not maximized.)

I also think tags are unnecessary feature bloat. The templates are already
sorted out into their default categories, and there's a search function for
those rare few with five hundred templates per application.

Lastly, I would prefer that this didn't become a replacement for the "New"
menu. Despite knowing about templates for quite a long time and having used
iWork and MS Office for Mac, both of which show templates at startup until
you disable the feature, I've never used templates. (I have used
presentation styles, but those are different from templates.)

Anyway, I hope I wasn't too depressing. I really loved the first mockup. :)

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Alexander Wilms Alexander Wilms
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

Hi Mirek, *

Thanks for your input. After thinking about it I do agree with the
points you mentioned. I made a new mock-up, similar to the first one. It
puts the focus on previews, document details are shown in tootips and
the category-selector has been shrinked to a drop-down menu. I added the
options to select (color/font/...) schemes and to use an existing
document as template/style.

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Templates_and_documents_rework#Categories

I hope this makes it easier to implement this and avoids feature bloat.

@ Christoph: What do you think, is anything missing? Or could we inform
other mailing lists, especially the devs to answer the open questions?

Regards

Alex


Am 22.02.2012 21:37, schrieb Mirek M.:

> Hi everyone,
> If I may chime in with my 2 cents here:
> I preferred the original mockup -- simple, clean, beautiful, puts the focus
> on template thumbnails.
>
> Frankly, I don't think a complex categorical view is necessary -- I would
> venture to guess that most people rarely touch templates, if at all, and
> therefore it's highly unlikely that someone will have 1000 Writer templates
> he needs to sort out into custom categories. And if one really has that
> many templates, he's better off using search. (BTW, a 100 templates per
> application is quite manageable with the previous mockup in a maximized
> window: a simple 10x10 grid. Or 5x20 when not maximized.)
>
> I also think tags are unnecessary feature bloat. The templates are already
> sorted out into their default categories, and there's a search function for
> those rare few with five hundred templates per application.
>
> Lastly, I would prefer that this didn't become a replacement for the "New"
> menu. Despite knowing about templates for quite a long time and having used
> iWork and MS Office for Mac, both of which show templates at startup until
> you disable the feature, I've never used templates. (I have used
> presentation styles, but those are different from templates.)
>
> Anyway, I hope I wasn't too depressing. I really loved the first mockup. :)
>



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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

Hey Alex,

2012/2/25 Alexander Wilms <[hidden email]>

> Hi Mirek, *
>
> Thanks for your input. After thinking about it I do agree with the points
> you mentioned. I made a new mock-up, similar to the first one. It puts the
> focus on previews, document details are shown in tootips and the
> category-selector has been shrinked to a drop-down menu.


Excellent! :)
Could you remove the tooltips and just show the document details at the
bottom? By covering the thumbnail, a tooltip detracts from the browsing
experience, especially when the info it's showing isn't very important to
picking a template.

I added the options to select (color/font/...) schemes...


How exactly would this work?

Also, what does the "cloud" button above do? Does it pull in templates from
the web and add them to the grid?

...and to use an existing document as template/style.


Could you move this button to the top toolbar as an "import template"
button, right next to the "Create template"? While you're at it, could you
also move "Help" to the top toolbar?

It seems like you opted to go with double-clicking to open a template. As
double-click is unfriendly to touch-screen users and users of this dialog
will on most occasions want to simply choose a template (and not select it
to delete it), could you implement single-click to choose a template
instead? You could use a special toolbar button for selecion, like Gnome
will:
http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/a-new-approach-to-gnome-application-design/
 (See http://jimmac.fedorapeople.org/gnome3/boxes/overlay-toolbar2/ to get
an idea of how it works.)

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Alexander Wilms Alexander Wilms
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

Hi Mirek,

sorry that it took so long to reply.

Regarding the color schemes: I don't know how exactly that works, but
Christoph mentiones them in the commented Wiki pages he sent me. I guess
one can import an xml that contains the information that is displayed in
the 'formatting' window.

The claud button does indeed pull templates from the online repository.

I think it would be better to keep the Help button in the bottom row
since this is how it works in every other dialogue in LO. I think VCL
even arranges those buttons to fit the standard of each OS.

In my opinion, the single click to select is a bit complicated, at least
on the desktop. E.g. the details are only shown if a certain template is
selected. But such behaviour might be implemented and be enabled
depending whether LO runs on a PC or a tablet.

Kind Regards

Alex





Am 25.02.2012 22:52, schrieb Mirek M.:

> Hey Alex,
>
> 2012/2/25 Alexander Wilms<[hidden email]>
>
>> Hi Mirek, *
>>
>> Thanks for your input. After thinking about it I do agree with the points
>> you mentioned. I made a new mock-up, similar to the first one. It puts the
>> focus on previews, document details are shown in tootips and the
>> category-selector has been shrinked to a drop-down menu.
>
> Excellent! :)
> Could you remove the tooltips and just show the document details at the
> bottom? By covering the thumbnail, a tooltip detracts from the browsing
> experience, especially when the info it's showing isn't very important to
> picking a template.
>
> I added the options to select (color/font/...) schemes...
>
>
> How exactly would this work?
>
> Also, what does the "cloud" button above do? Does it pull in templates from
> the web and add them to the grid?
>
> ...and to use an existing document as template/style.
>
>
> Could you move this button to the top toolbar as an "import template"
> button, right next to the "Create template"? While you're at it, could you
> also move "Help" to the top toolbar?
>
> It seems like you opted to go with double-clicking to open a template. As
> double-click is unfriendly to touch-screen users and users of this dialog
> will on most occasions want to simply choose a template (and not select it
> to delete it), could you implement single-click to choose a template
> instead? You could use a special toolbar button for selecion, like Gnome
> will:
> http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/a-new-approach-to-gnome-application-design/
>   (See http://jimmac.fedorapeople.org/gnome3/boxes/overlay-toolbar2/ to get
> an idea of how it works.)
>



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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

Hi Alex,
2012/3/1 Alexander Wilms <[hidden email]>

> Hi Mirek,
>
> sorry that it took so long to reply.
>
> Regarding the color schemes: I don't know how exactly that works, but
> Christoph mentiones them in the commented Wiki pages he sent me. I guess
> one can import an xml that contains the information that is displayed in
> the 'formatting' window.
>
> The claud button does indeed pull templates from the online repository.
>
> I think it would be better to keep the Help button in the bottom row since
> this is how it works in every other dialogue in LO. I think VCL even
> arranges those buttons to fit the standard of each OS.


No other dialog in LibO has its own toolbar. LibreOffice itself sports a
help icon in the toolbar. Besides, it´s quite irregular for modern
applications to feature "Help" among its bottom choice of buttons, and it´s
disorienting for users. The bottom list of buttons should include only
buttons that either confirm or cancel the action.

>
> In my opinion, the single click to select is a bit complicated, at least
> on the desktop. E.g. the details are only shown if a certain template is
> selected. But such behaviour might be implemented and be enabled depending
> whether LO runs on a PC or a tablet.
>

A lot of new computers are going to be hybrids, built for both touch and
mouse+keyboard input.
Double-click has proven to be confusing to new users, which is why mobile
operating systems (including Android and Windows 8 Metro UI) don´t use it,
why Gnome is moving away from it, and why KDE´s Dophin and Google Docs use
single-click for opening files.

It´s just going to be easier if we forgo the double-click and implement
single-click behavior that would work for both touch and mouse+keyboard
input.

>
> Kind Regards
>
> Alex
>

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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

Hi again Alex,
Is the new proposal with the edit mode single-click to open or still
double-click? Judging by the way the "Details" drop-down works, I'd still
say double-click, but I'm not certain.

Here's what I'd suggest. Since 95% of the time, the user will use the
dialog to pick a template, let's use single-click to open a template. Let's
have a selection mode with which the user could select and move files. This
mode would trigger a detail pane at the bottom, featuring information about
the selected template. Upon selection, a "Trash" button would appear in the
toolbar, letting the user delete the selected template(s). (Single-click to
delete a template in the edit mode is quite risky -- it would be very easy
to accidentally delete a template.)

Instead of having a "Show categories" checkbox at the bottom of the dialog,
there should be a "Show categories" in the dialog's toolbar, for
consistency and simplicity.

Lastly, template categories should be managed inside the Template dialog,
not from Options (it's bloated enough :) ). How about having an options
button (with a gear icon, I presume) next to every category heading, which
would trigger a menu including options to rename or delete the category
(deleting the category would simply move its templates to the
"Uncategorized" category). There could be an "Add category" button at the
bottom of the template grid.

2012/3/3 Mirek M. <[hidden email]>

> Hi Alex,
> 2012/3/1 Alexander Wilms <[hidden email]>
>
>> Hi Mirek,
>>
>> sorry that it took so long to reply.
>>
>> Regarding the color schemes: I don't know how exactly that works, but
>> Christoph mentiones them in the commented Wiki pages he sent me. I guess
>> one can import an xml that contains the information that is displayed in
>> the 'formatting' window.
>>
>> The claud button does indeed pull templates from the online repository.
>>
>> I think it would be better to keep the Help button in the bottom row
>> since this is how it works in every other dialogue in LO. I think VCL even
>> arranges those buttons to fit the standard of each OS.
>>
>
> No other dialog in LibO has its own toolbar. LibreOffice itself sports a
> help icon in the toolbar. Besides, it´s quite irregular for modern
> applications to feature "Help" among its bottom choice of buttons, and it´s
> disorienting for users. The bottom list of buttons should include only
> buttons that either confirm or cancel the action.
>
>>
>> In my opinion, the single click to select is a bit complicated, at least
>> on the desktop. E.g. the details are only shown if a certain template is
>> selected. But such behaviour might be implemented and be enabled depending
>> whether LO runs on a PC or a tablet.
>>
>
> A lot of new computers are going to be hybrids, built for both touch and
> mouse+keyboard input.
> Double-click has proven to be confusing to new users, which is why mobile
> operating systems (including Android and Windows 8 Metro UI) don´t use it,
> why Gnome is moving away from it, and why KDE´s Dophin and Google Docs use
> single-click for opening files.
>
> It´s just going to be easier if we forgo the double-click and implement
> single-click behavior that would work for both touch and mouse+keyboard
> input.
>
>>
>> Kind Regards
>>
>> Alex
>>
>

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Alexander Wilms Alexander Wilms
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

Hi Mirek,

I am not sure if the same UI could be used for touch interfaces and
mouse interaction.

How would you be able to display the template information when using
single click? Maybe the Details drop-down should simply be hidden when
one is using a touch device.

I think I'll merge the edit mode with what you descibed for deleting them

Also, the 'Show categories' checkbox is only shown when in edit mode. I
don't know how often that wpould be used, so it might be a better choice
to put that option in the toolbar, as you said.

Regarding the management of the categories: This would be done in the
edit mode as well, I just hadn't it added to the mock-up yet. I'll do so
now.

I have another question: How should favorites and recently used
templates be managed?

Have another tab in the notebook widget like this:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
  []  []  []  []
------------------------------------------------------------------------

            [Favorites | Text | Slideshow | spreadsheet]

Recents --------------------------------------------

Template1  Template2  Template3


Am 09.03.2012 00:18, schrieb Mirek M.:

> Hi again Alex,
> Is the new proposal with the edit mode single-click to open or still
> double-click? Judging by the way the "Details" drop-down works, I'd still
> say double-click, but I'm not certain.
>
> Here's what I'd suggest. Since 95% of the time, the user will use the
> dialog to pick a template, let's use single-click to open a template. Let's
> have a selection mode with which the user could select and move files. This
> mode would trigger a detail pane at the bottom, featuring information about
> the selected template. Upon selection, a "Trash" button would appear in the
> toolbar, letting the user delete the selected template(s). (Single-click to
> delete a template in the edit mode is quite risky -- it would be very easy
> to accidentally delete a template.)
>
> Instead of having a "Show categories" checkbox at the bottom of the dialog,
> there should be a "Show categories" in the dialog's toolbar, for
> consistency and simplicity.
>
> Lastly, template categories should be managed inside the Template dialog,
> not from Options (it's bloated enough :) ). How about having an options
> button (with a gear icon, I presume) next to every category heading, which
> would trigger a menu including options to rename or delete the category
> (deleting the category would simply move its templates to the
> "Uncategorized" category). There could be an "Add category" button at the
> bottom of the template grid.
>
> 2012/3/3 Mirek M.<[hidden email]>
>
>> Hi Alex,
>> 2012/3/1 Alexander Wilms<[hidden email]>
>>
>>> Hi Mirek,
>>>
>>> sorry that it took so long to reply.
>>>
>>> Regarding the color schemes: I don't know how exactly that works, but
>>> Christoph mentiones them in the commented Wiki pages he sent me. I guess
>>> one can import an xml that contains the information that is displayed in
>>> the 'formatting' window.
>>>
>>> The claud button does indeed pull templates from the online repository.
>>>
>>> I think it would be better to keep the Help button in the bottom row
>>> since this is how it works in every other dialogue in LO. I think VCL even
>>> arranges those buttons to fit the standard of each OS.
>>>
>> No other dialog in LibO has its own toolbar. LibreOffice itself sports a
>> help icon in the toolbar. Besides, it´s quite irregular for modern
>> applications to feature "Help" among its bottom choice of buttons, and it´s
>> disorienting for users. The bottom list of buttons should include only
>> buttons that either confirm or cancel the action.
>>
>>> In my opinion, the single click to select is a bit complicated, at least
>>> on the desktop. E.g. the details are only shown if a certain template is
>>> selected. But such behaviour might be implemented and be enabled depending
>>> whether LO runs on a PC or a tablet.
>>>
>> A lot of new computers are going to be hybrids, built for both touch and
>> mouse+keyboard input.
>> Double-click has proven to be confusing to new users, which is why mobile
>> operating systems (including Android and Windows 8 Metro UI) don´t use it,
>> why Gnome is moving away from it, and why KDE´s Dophin and Google Docs use
>> single-click for opening files.
>>
>> It´s just going to be easier if we forgo the double-click and implement
>> single-click behavior that would work for both touch and mouse+keyboard
>> input.
>>
>>> Kind Regards
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>



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Alexander Wilms Alexander Wilms
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

In reply to this post by mirek2
Hi Mirek,

I am not sure if the same UI could be used for touch interfaces and
mouse interaction.

How would you be able to display the template information when using
single click? Maybe the Details drop-down should simply be hidden when
one is using a touch device.

I think I'll merge the edit mode with what you descibed for deleting them

Also, the 'Show categories' checkbox is only shown when in edit mode. I
don't know how often that wpould be used, so it might be a better choice
to put that option in the toolbar, as you said.

Regarding the management of the categories: This would be done in the
edit mode as well, I just hadn't it added to the mock-up yet. I'll do so
now.

I have another question: How should favorites and recently used
templates be managed?

Have another tab in the notebook widget like this:



------------------------------------------------------------------------
  []  []  []  []
------------------------------------------------------------------------

            [Favorites | Text | Slideshow | spreadsheet]

Recents --------------------------------------------

Template1  Template2  Template3


Category 1 --------------------------------------------



Or rather like this




------------------------------------------------------------------------
  []  []  []  []
------------------------------------------------------------------------

            [Recents | Text | Slideshow | spreadsheet]

Favorites --------------------------------------------

Template1  Template2  Template3


Category 1 --------------------------------------------

Regards

Alex

Am 09.03.2012 00:18, schrieb Mirek M.:

> Hi again Alex,
> Is the new proposal with the edit mode single-click to open or still
> double-click? Judging by the way the "Details" drop-down works, I'd still
> say double-click, but I'm not certain.
>
> Here's what I'd suggest. Since 95% of the time, the user will use the
> dialog to pick a template, let's use single-click to open a template. Let's
> have a selection mode with which the user could select and move files. This
> mode would trigger a detail pane at the bottom, featuring information about
> the selected template. Upon selection, a "Trash" button would appear in the
> toolbar, letting the user delete the selected template(s). (Single-click to
> delete a template in the edit mode is quite risky -- it would be very easy
> to accidentally delete a template.)
>
> Instead of having a "Show categories" checkbox at the bottom of the dialog,
> there should be a "Show categories" in the dialog's toolbar, for
> consistency and simplicity.
>
> Lastly, template categories should be managed inside the Template dialog,
> not from Options (it's bloated enough :) ). How about having an options
> button (with a gear icon, I presume) next to every category heading, which
> would trigger a menu including options to rename or delete the category
> (deleting the category would simply move its templates to the
> "Uncategorized" category). There could be an "Add category" button at the
> bottom of the template grid.
>
> 2012/3/3 Mirek M.<[hidden email]>
>
>> Hi Alex,
>> 2012/3/1 Alexander Wilms<[hidden email]>
>>
>>> Hi Mirek,
>>>
>>> sorry that it took so long to reply.
>>>
>>> Regarding the color schemes: I don't know how exactly that works, but
>>> Christoph mentiones them in the commented Wiki pages he sent me. I guess
>>> one can import an xml that contains the information that is displayed in
>>> the 'formatting' window.
>>>
>>> The claud button does indeed pull templates from the online repository.
>>>
>>> I think it would be better to keep the Help button in the bottom row
>>> since this is how it works in every other dialogue in LO. I think VCL even
>>> arranges those buttons to fit the standard of each OS.
>>>
>> No other dialog in LibO has its own toolbar. LibreOffice itself sports a
>> help icon in the toolbar. Besides, it´s quite irregular for modern
>> applications to feature "Help" among its bottom choice of buttons, and it´s
>> disorienting for users. The bottom list of buttons should include only
>> buttons that either confirm or cancel the action.
>>
>>> In my opinion, the single click to select is a bit complicated, at least
>>> on the desktop. E.g. the details are only shown if a certain template is
>>> selected. But such behaviour might be implemented and be enabled depending
>>> whether LO runs on a PC or a tablet.
>>>
>> A lot of new computers are going to be hybrids, built for both touch and
>> mouse+keyboard input.
>> Double-click has proven to be confusing to new users, which is why mobile
>> operating systems (including Android and Windows 8 Metro UI) don´t use it,
>> why Gnome is moving away from it, and why KDE´s Dophin and Google Docs use
>> single-click for opening files.
>>
>> It´s just going to be easier if we forgo the double-click and implement
>> single-click behavior that would work for both touch and mouse+keyboard
>> input.
>>
>>> Kind Regards
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>



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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

In reply to this post by mirek2
Hi Mirek,

> Here's what I'd suggest. Since 95% of the time, the user will use the
> dialog to pick a template, let's use single-click to open a template. Let's
> have a selection mode with which the user could select and move files.

I guess that's helpful for Tablet LibO... For desktop LibO the
behaviour seems extremely inconsistent.
Almost all desktop file managers have an option that allows opening
files/folders with a single click, but I've yet to see one where this
was deemed so useful to be enabled by default (I guess KDE 3 Konqueror
used to have it enabled by default, but that is the only app I
remember – in Dolphin, this choice was reverted, too).


> Lastly, template categories should be managed inside the Template dialog,
> not from Options (it's bloated enough :) ). How about having an options
> button (with a gear icon, I presume) next to every category heading, which
> would trigger a menu including options to rename or delete the category
> (deleting the category would simply move its templates to the
> "Uncategorized" category). There could be an "Add category" button at the
> bottom of the template grid.

Sounds good...


Astron.

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Alexander Wilms Alexander Wilms
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

Hi,

here's the updated mock-up:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/3/3d/Templatesanddocuments_3.png

Alex


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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

In reply to this post by Stefan Knorr (Astron)
Hi everyone,

2012/3/9 Stefan Knorr (Astron) <[hidden email]>

> Hi Mirek,
>
> > Here's what I'd suggest. Since 95% of the time, the user will use the
> > dialog to pick a template, let's use single-click to open a template.
> Let's
> > have a selection mode with which the user could select and move files.
>
> I guess that's helpful for Tablet LibO... For desktop LibO the
> behaviour seems extremely inconsistent.
> Almost all desktop file managers have an option that allows opening
> files/folders with a single click, but I've yet to see one where this
> was deemed so useful to be enabled by default (I guess KDE 3 Konqueror
> used to have it enabled by default, but that is the only app I
> remember – in Dolphin, this choice was reverted, too).
>

AFAIK, it's still the default in Dolphin, isn't it?

And more distros are moving to single click. As I mentioned, Gnome
applications (including Nautilus) are going to use single-click.
Microsoft's Metro UI uses single click. Unofficial desktop versions of
Android use single-click, and it's expected that Android 5.0 will
officially support mouse+keyboard-based interaction. Google Docs uses
single-click to open files.

Double-click itself is very inconsistent itself. For example,
single-clicking an application icon in the launcher will launch it, but
single-clicking an application icon on the desktop will select it. There is
no single rule to say what acts on double-click instead of single-click --
you just have to learn by trial.

>
>
> > Lastly, template categories should be managed inside the Template dialog,
> > not from Options (it's bloated enough :) ). How about having an options
> > button (with a gear icon, I presume) next to every category heading,
> which
> > would trigger a menu including options to rename or delete the category
> > (deleting the category would simply move its templates to the
> > "Uncategorized" category). There could be an "Add category" button at the
> > bottom of the template grid.
>
> Sounds good...
>
>
> Astron.
>
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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

In reply to this post by Alexander Wilms
Hi Alex,

2012/3/9 Alexander Wilms <[hidden email]>

> Hi Mirek,
>
> I am not sure if the same UI could be used for touch interfaces and mouse
> interaction.
>

Given that both Windows and Gnome, and maybe Android, plan to be usable
with both, it's a goal we should have.

>
> How would you be able to display the template information when using
> single click? Maybe the Details drop-down should simply be hidden when one
> is using a touch device.
>

Details could be shown:
* On hover -- within a pane docked to the bottom, a floating tooltip, as a
transparent overlay over the thumbnail, or triggered by a small "i" icon
that would appear on hover over a thumbnail.
* On selection (under the selection mode).

No need for double-click.

>
> I think I'll merge the edit mode with what you descibed for deleting them.
>

I'd still prefer if you only had a selection mode. Gnome has put quite a
lot of thought into the Selection mode -- see the "Selections and
Contextual Actions" section of
http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/a-new-approach-to-gnome-application-design,
and it's great.

If you have to have an edit mode, though, please use the standard pencil
icon.

>
> Also, the 'Show categories' checkbox is only shown when in edit mode. I
> don't know how often that wpould be used, so it might be a better choice to
> put that option in the toolbar, as you said.
>
> Regarding the management of the categories: This would be done in the edit
> mode as well, I just hadn't it added to the mock-up yet. I'll do so now.
>
> I have another question: How should favorites and recently used templates
> be managed?
>
> Have another tab in the notebook widget like this:
>
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> ------------
>  []  []  []  []
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> ------------
>
>           [Favorites | Text | Slideshow | spreadsheet]
>
> Recents ------------------------------**--------------
>
> Template1  Template2  Template3
>

Frankly, I wouldn't use a separate tab, simply because a user looking for
his favorite slideshow template won't want to use a tab where document,
spreadsheet, and slideshow templates are mixed together. Instead, I would
have a "Favorites" and a "Recent" category for each filetype, each spanning
a single row.

>
>
> Am 09.03.2012 00:18, schrieb Mirek M.:
>
>  Hi again Alex,
>> Is the new proposal with the edit mode single-click to open or still
>> double-click? Judging by the way the "Details" drop-down works, I'd still
>> say double-click, but I'm not certain.
>>
>> Here's what I'd suggest. Since 95% of the time, the user will use the
>> dialog to pick a template, let's use single-click to open a template.
>> Let's
>> have a selection mode with which the user could select and move files.
>> This
>> mode would trigger a detail pane at the bottom, featuring information
>> about
>> the selected template. Upon selection, a "Trash" button would appear in
>> the
>> toolbar, letting the user delete the selected template(s). (Single-click
>> to
>> delete a template in the edit mode is quite risky -- it would be very easy
>> to accidentally delete a template.)
>>
>> Instead of having a "Show categories" checkbox at the bottom of the
>> dialog,
>> there should be a "Show categories" in the dialog's toolbar, for
>> consistency and simplicity.
>>
>> Lastly, template categories should be managed inside the Template dialog,
>> not from Options (it's bloated enough :) ). How about having an options
>> button (with a gear icon, I presume) next to every category heading, which
>> would trigger a menu including options to rename or delete the category
>> (deleting the category would simply move its templates to the
>> "Uncategorized" category). There could be an "Add category" button at the
>> bottom of the template grid.
>>
>> 2012/3/3 Mirek M.<[hidden email]>
>>
>>  Hi Alex,
>>> 2012/3/1 Alexander Wilms<[hidden email]**>
>>>
>>>  Hi Mirek,
>>>>
>>>> sorry that it took so long to reply.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the color schemes: I don't know how exactly that works, but
>>>> Christoph mentiones them in the commented Wiki pages he sent me. I guess
>>>> one can import an xml that contains the information that is displayed in
>>>> the 'formatting' window.
>>>>
>>>> The claud button does indeed pull templates from the online repository.
>>>>
>>>> I think it would be better to keep the Help button in the bottom row
>>>> since this is how it works in every other dialogue in LO. I think VCL
>>>> even
>>>> arranges those buttons to fit the standard of each OS.
>>>>
>>>>  No other dialog in LibO has its own toolbar. LibreOffice itself sports
>>> a
>>> help icon in the toolbar. Besides, it´s quite irregular for modern
>>> applications to feature "Help" among its bottom choice of buttons, and
>>> it´s
>>> disorienting for users. The bottom list of buttons should include only
>>> buttons that either confirm or cancel the action.
>>>
>>>  In my opinion, the single click to select is a bit complicated, at least
>>>> on the desktop. E.g. the details are only shown if a certain template is
>>>> selected. But such behaviour might be implemented and be enabled
>>>> depending
>>>> whether LO runs on a PC or a tablet.
>>>>
>>>>  A lot of new computers are going to be hybrids, built for both touch
>>> and
>>> mouse+keyboard input.
>>> Double-click has proven to be confusing to new users, which is why mobile
>>> operating systems (including Android and Windows 8 Metro UI) don´t use
>>> it,
>>> why Gnome is moving away from it, and why KDE´s Dophin and Google Docs
>>> use
>>> single-click for opening files.
>>>
>>> It´s just going to be easier if we forgo the double-click and implement
>>> single-click behavior that would work for both touch and mouse+keyboard
>>> input.
>>>
>>>  Kind Regards
>>>>
>>>> Alex
>>>>
>>>>

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Alexander Wilms Alexander Wilms
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

Hi Mirek,

Am 09.03.2012 23:17, schrieb Mirek M.:
 >
 >
 > Given that both Windows and Gnome, and maybe Android, plan to be usable
 > with both, it's a goal we should have.

You've got a point there.
 >
 >>
 >> How would you be able to display the template information when using
 >> single click? Maybe the Details drop-down should simply be hidden
when one
 >> is using a touch device.
 >>
 >
 > Details could be shown:
 > * On hover -- within a pane docked to the bottom, a floating tooltip,
as a
 > transparent overlay over the thumbnail, or triggered by a small "i" icon
 > that would appear on hover over a thumbnail.
 > * On selection (under the selection mode).
 >
 > No need for double-click.

I don't get really this. 'Hovering' does not exist on touch interfaces,
right? How would this work?
 >
 >
 >>
 >> I think I'll merge the edit mode with what you descibed for deleting
them.
 >>
 >
 > I'd still prefer if you only had a selection mode. Gnome has put quite a
 > lot of thought into the Selection mode -- see the "Selections and
 > Contextual Actions" section of
 >
http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/a-new-approach-to-gnome-application-design,
 > and it's great.
 >
 > If you have to have an edit mode, though, please use the standard pencil
 > icon.
 >
What would the selection mode be used for if not editing the library of
templates? What would be the difference?

 >
 >
 >>
 >> Also, the 'Show categories' checkbox is only shown when in edit mode. I
 >> don't know how often that wpould be used, so it might be a better
choice to
 >> put that option in the toolbar, as you said.
 >>
 >> Regarding the management of the categories: This would be done in
the edit
 >> mode as well, I just hadn't it added to the mock-up yet. I'll do so now.
 >>
 >> I have another question: How should favorites and recently used
templates
 >> be managed?
 >>
 >> Have another tab in the notebook widget like this:
 >>
 >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
 >> ------------
 >>  []  []  []  []
 >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
 >> ------------
 >>
 >>           [Favorites | Text | Slideshow | spreadsheet]
 >>
 >> Recents ------------------------------**--------------
 >>
 >> Template1  Template2  Template3
 >>
 >
 > Frankly, I wouldn't use a separate tab, simply because a user looking for
 > his favorite slideshow template won't want to use a tab where document,
 > spreadsheet, and slideshow templates are mixed together. Instead, I would
 > have a "Favorites" and a "Recent" category for each filetype, each
spanning
 > a single row.
 >

That sounds reasonable. The 'recent'-category wouldn't show up in the
edit mode, then.

Regards,

Alex



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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Rework of the "Templates and documents" dialogue

Hi Alex,

2012/3/10 Alexander Wilms <[hidden email]>

> Hi Mirek,
>
> Am 09.03.2012 23:17, schrieb Mirek M.:
>
> >
> >
> > Given that both Windows and Gnome, and maybe Android, plan to be usable
> > with both, it's a goal we should have.
>
> You've got a point there.
>
> >
> >>
> >> How would you be able to display the template information when using
> >> single click? Maybe the Details drop-down should simply be hidden when
> one
> >> is using a touch device.
> >>
> >
> > Details could be shown:
> > * On hover -- within a pane docked to the bottom, a floating tooltip, as
> a
> > transparent overlay over the thumbnail, or triggered by a small "i" icon
> > that would appear on hover over a thumbnail.
> > * On selection (under the selection mode).
> >
> > No need for double-click.
>
> I don't get really this. 'Hovering' does not exist on touch interfaces,
> right? How would this work?


I meant both on hovering and on selection. Selection works on touch
interfaces.

>
> >
> >
> >>
> >> I think I'll merge the edit mode with what you descibed for deleting
> them.
> >>
> >
> > I'd still prefer if you only had a selection mode. Gnome has put quite a
> > lot of thought into the Selection mode -- see the "Selections and
> > Contextual Actions" section of
> > http://afaikblog.wordpress.**com/2012/02/10/a-new-approach-**
> to-gnome-application-design<http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/a-new-approach-to-gnome-application-design>
> ,
> > and it's great.
> >
> > If you have to have an edit mode, though, please use the standard pencil
> > icon.
> >
> What would the selection mode be used for if not editing the library of
> templates? What would be the difference?


The selection mode would be simply used for selecting.

"Edit mode" is vague, and therefore a bit confusing. The user doesn't know
what features (s)he might find under the "Edit mode" and what features are
available up front. The mode just unnecessarily adds surface area (a
measure of how complex the UI is) to the dialog.

I'd prefer to have all the editing features up-front in a non-distracting
sort of way. That's how file managers work -- why should template managers
work differently? If anything, template managers should be simpler, as they
deal with just a single file type.

BTW, instead of having a separate category view, wouldn't it be simpler if
we just used "folders". That way, users could group templates if they
needed to, but wouldn't be forced to use categories for every template. It
would be similar to how all file managers work and to how Android and iOS
folders on its homescreen work, and how the LibreOffice file manager for
mobile operating systems might work. Familiarity is a good thing. :)

>
>
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Also, the 'Show categories' checkbox is only shown when in edit mode. I
> >> don't know how often that wpould be used, so it might be a better
> choice to
> >> put that option in the toolbar, as you said.
> >>
> >> Regarding the management of the categories: This would be done in the
> edit
> >> mode as well, I just hadn't it added to the mock-up yet. I'll do so now.
> >>
> >> I have another question: How should favorites and recently used
> templates
> >> be managed?
> >>
> >> Have another tab in the notebook widget like this:
> >>
> >> ------------------------------****----------------------------**--**
> >> ------------
> >>  []  []  []  []
> >> ------------------------------****----------------------------**--**
>
> >> ------------
> >>
> >>           [Favorites | Text | Slideshow | spreadsheet]
> >>
> >> Recents ------------------------------****--------------
>
> >>
> >> Template1  Template2  Template3
> >>
> >
> > Frankly, I wouldn't use a separate tab, simply because a user looking for
> > his favorite slideshow template won't want to use a tab where document,
> > spreadsheet, and slideshow templates are mixed together. Instead, I would
> > have a "Favorites" and a "Recent" category for each filetype, each
> spanning
> > a single row.
> >
>
> That sounds reasonable. The 'recent'-category wouldn't show up in the
> edit mode, then.
>

But what if a user wanted to delete or rename a recently-used template?

>
> Regards,
>
>
> Alex
>
>
>
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