SVG embedding in LibreOffice

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steveedmonds steveedmonds
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Re: Re: Re: SVG embedding in LibreOffice



On 11/06/11 6:08 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote:

> On 2011-06-10, Cor Nouws wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> todd rme wrote (10-06-11 18:05)
>>
>>> So what is the decision on the svg embedding?
>> Sorry, I've not been able to keep up with this mail discussion. (Still
>> owe people from last weeks Monday /Tuesday a reply :-\ )
> I apologize for making it harder for you to keep up, by adding another
> message to the thread! :-)
>
>> I had a look some days ago and got the impression that there were
>> differences between LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org . And maybe some
>> more things.
> I guess there's "some more thing": NoOp could only see the better
> embedding in OOo *for Windows*, not in Linux:
>
> ,----[NoOp's message of Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:19:37 -0700]
> |
> | On 06/08/2011 03:29 PM, Zak McKracken wrote:
> |>  Am 08.06.2011, 19:38 Uhr, schrieb NoOp...
> |>>  Which version did you try? I've tried both:
> |>>  http://download.openoffice.org/next/other.html#dev2
> |>>  and
> |>>  http://download.openoffice.org/all_beta.html
> |>>  (linux Intel DEB)
> |>
> |>  The latter one, 3.4 beta1. But I tested it only on Windows XP.
> |
> | Just tried on WinXP&  it does indeed work there. So their linux version
> | has issues. I'll add a note to the bug report.
> `----
>
> Maybe the windows version uses some windows-only library, or even
> windows built-in features to handle SVG?
>
>
>> What I have been told, is that certain changes for OOO 3.4.0 rc, have
>> not been implemented in LibreOffice at the moment, but that it is the
>> intention to do that at a next minor release. So that would be 3.5.0
> Integration takes time, so, yes, I'd expect some kind of delay.
>
>> Maybe this explains part of the situation (or maybe it even already
>> has been written by someone ;-) )
> It explains.
>
> But I'm curious about the windows-only bit.
>
Hi. May be the same handling that allows the Mac to show EPSs correctly
on screen, from the vector art and not from the preview.
steve

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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Re: Re: SVG embedding in LibreOffice

In reply to this post by Nuno J. Silva
Nuno J. Silva wrote (10-06-11 20:08)
> I apologize for making it harder for you to keep up, by adding another
> message to the thread! :-)

LOL :-)

> But I'm curious about the windows-only bit.

Well, that's something I happened to see, since I'm cc'ed on the OOo
isue about this. The (prev.) responsible dev. stated that indeed there
is a library involved. I guess Gary will come up with details.

Cheers,

--
  - Cor
  - http://nl.libreoffice.org


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Nuno J. Silva Nuno J. Silva
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Re: Re: Re: SVG embedding in LibreOffice

On 2011-06-10, Cor Nouws wrote:

> Nuno J. Silva wrote (10-06-11 20:08)
>> But I'm curious about the windows-only bit.
>
> Well, that's something I happened to see, since I'm cc'ed on the OOo
> isue about this. The (prev.) responsible dev. stated that indeed there
> is a library involved. I guess Gary will come up with details.

Oh, found it: OOo bug 49991.

ka's answer explains it, just a missing library.

Thanks!

--
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gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

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Tom Tom
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Re: Re: Re: SVG embedding in LibreOffice

In reply to this post by todd rme




----- Original Message ----

> From: todd rme <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Fri, 10 June, 2011 17:05:00
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Re: Re: SVG embedding in LibreOffice
>
> >> Hi :)
> >> Have bug-reports been posted?  I think the issues are  quite important to
>get
> >> fixed.
> >
> > Yes, a bunch:
> >  svg (LibreOffice Bugzilla): 36511, 36520, 37895, 37994, 34720, 36154,
> >  36890, 37072, 31460, 33554, 32248
> > eps (OpenOffice.org Bugzilla): 12059,  117071, 93629, 84177, 24254
> > The discussion in the first eps bug I listed  I took to basically be
> > saying that the developers were happy enough with  the existing
> > functionality (rendering previews) so this bug was not  going to be
> > fixed, so I never bothered making a new one in the  LibreOffice
> > bugzilla.  Is there any point requesting support for native  eps
> > rendering, or are the LibreOffice developers of the same opinion  as
> > the one stated in this bug?
> >
> >  Todd
> >
> >
> > Hi :)
> > I would post again but to the  LibreOffice bug-team this time.  OpenOffice
>had
> > different owners and had  to deal with different constraints.  A high
>percentage
> > of devs in  LibreOffice are new and the ones that aren't have finally been
>freed
> > to  get on with stuff.
> >
> > Regards from
> > Tom :)
>
> Done: Bug  38161
>
> So what is the decision on the svg embedding?  For me at lest  SVG
> support is even more important than EPS support.
>
> Todd
>

Hi :)
I don't think there is a definite final answer yet.  It seems that Svg work is
scheduled for Googles' Summer of Code (GSoC).  So, hopefully it wont get worked
on before that ;) lol.  Otherwise they'll have to re-schedule what they are
doing for GSoC.
Good luck and regards from
Tom :)


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John B-2 John B-2
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Re: Feature request - Lotus Wordpro tabs

In reply to this post by Tom
Tom

Thanks - I have posted the request  below  today - I will let you know
if I get a response.

I note that on the new IBM Lotus Symphony Web site - this has to be the
most angered and fought for request (1000's), but IBM have now disowned
its own software in favour of making the new cut down 3 progs suit "not
compatible", OOo used to!, but LibreOffice have taken up the challenge
in as much as LO can read the files - although the original formatting
is a bit hit and miss.

 >>>>>>>>>>>

[wish-list]

/There must be 10's of thousands of Lotus Smart Suite users who use
Lotus Wordpro who cannot move (locked in) to any other software because
of a brilliant internal tab filing structure within wordpro. This is
where you can put standard tabs inside Group tabs.

Because Libreoffice thankfully support Lotus Smart Suite documents (and
IBM no longer do), you would be the natural inheritor for all these folk.

At the moment I am not aware of any other software that even have tab
documents within a Word processor so you would be unique.

One tab can be for any amount of pages (also called a division).

The beauty of tab documents is that in one file you can have all the
documents for say one client, one book etc. laid out in say years +2011,
+2010 ..... +1995 or chapters etc. and inside (by clicking the +) the
group tab opens up and you can have inside other tabs for all that years
correspondence or headings or whatever etc).

Now by having them all in one file, then a document produced in say 2000
is not archived or deleted as every time a new document is added the
whole file is updated to the current date, so backing up by current date
massively improves.

I have files on current clients that go back to 1991, the "+" means that
it is a "group tab" and that there are other tabs inside (and maybe more
inside them) etc., Hence its an effective filing structure to handle
multi documents.

I have group tabs that go like this "+1990's" > "+1991" > "Contracts" >
(then a single tab "12/03/91"

Hence, you can also go straight to a division, click on it and Print it
as a separate item. You can copy & paste, insert, you can move a tab,
(like making it the 1st or last page(s) in a document.

The problem now is that if a Wordpro document, fully tabbed with say 10
- 1000 Tabs and by transferring it to LibreOfice it just becomes an
unmanageable 10 to say 10,000 pages, with no structure.

Managing large documents or many documents over a long period of time
becomes achievable with Tabs (divisions)

I would have thought that this would be useful in any word processor.
Please consider this

Thank you

John Brassington
/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 10/06/2011 14:42, Tom Davies wrote:

> Hi :)
> This guide might help?
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport
>
> I think i would post as a normal bug but put "" at the start of the
> subject-line (unless the guide has better advice!)
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: John B<[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Fri, 10 June, 2011 12:20:01
> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Feature request - area?
>
>
> Is there an area where Feature Requests are posted?
>
> John B
>
> -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
> In case of problems unsubscribing, write to [hidden email]
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3691 - Release Date: 06/09/11 19:34:00
>




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Roland Hughes Roland Hughes
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Re: Feature request - Lotus Wordpro tabs

If you visit the bug report site, you will see I have filed several bugs
on this issue.  They cannot implement WordPro tabs until they implement
WordPro windows for documents.  Right now they have taken the brain dead
Microsoft approach of having each document as a tab.


On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 14:56 +0100, John B wrote:

> Tom
>
> Thanks - I have posted the request  below  today - I will let you know
> if I get a response.
>
> I note that on the new IBM Lotus Symphony Web site - this has to be the
> most angered and fought for request (1000's), but IBM have now disowned
> its own software in favour of making the new cut down 3 progs suit "not
> compatible", OOo used to!, but LibreOffice have taken up the challenge
> in as much as LO can read the files - although the original formatting
> is a bit hit and miss.
>
>  >>>>>>>>>>>
>
> [wish-list]
>
> /There must be 10's of thousands of Lotus Smart Suite users who use
> Lotus Wordpro who cannot move (locked in) to any other software because
> of a brilliant internal tab filing structure within wordpro. This is
> where you can put standard tabs inside Group tabs.
>
> Because Libreoffice thankfully support Lotus Smart Suite documents (and
> IBM no longer do), you would be the natural inheritor for all these folk.
>
> At the moment I am not aware of any other software that even have tab
> documents within a Word processor so you would be unique.
>
> One tab can be for any amount of pages (also called a division).
>
> The beauty of tab documents is that in one file you can have all the
> documents for say one client, one book etc. laid out in say years +2011,
> +2010 ..... +1995 or chapters etc. and inside (by clicking the +) the
> group tab opens up and you can have inside other tabs for all that years
> correspondence or headings or whatever etc).
>
> Now by having them all in one file, then a document produced in say 2000
> is not archived or deleted as every time a new document is added the
> whole file is updated to the current date, so backing up by current date
> massively improves.
>
> I have files on current clients that go back to 1991, the "+" means that
> it is a "group tab" and that there are other tabs inside (and maybe more
> inside them) etc., Hence its an effective filing structure to handle
> multi documents.
>
> I have group tabs that go like this "+1990's" > "+1991" > "Contracts" >
> (then a single tab "12/03/91"
>
> Hence, you can also go straight to a division, click on it and Print it
> as a separate item. You can copy & paste, insert, you can move a tab,
> (like making it the 1st or last page(s) in a document.
>
> The problem now is that if a Wordpro document, fully tabbed with say 10
> - 1000 Tabs and by transferring it to LibreOfice it just becomes an
> unmanageable 10 to say 10,000 pages, with no structure.
>
> Managing large documents or many documents over a long period of time
> becomes achievable with Tabs (divisions)
>
> I would have thought that this would be useful in any word processor.
> Please consider this
>
> Thank you
>
> John Brassington
> /
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> On 10/06/2011 14:42, Tom Davies wrote:
> > Hi :)
> > This guide might help?
> > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport
> >
> > I think i would post as a normal bug but put "" at the start of the
> > subject-line (unless the guide has better advice!)
> > Regards from
> > Tom :)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: John B<[hidden email]>
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Sent: Fri, 10 June, 2011 12:20:01
> > Subject: [libreoffice-users] Feature request - area?
> >
> >
> > Is there an area where Feature Requests are posted?
> >
> > John B
> >
> > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
> > In case of problems unsubscribing, write to [hidden email]
> > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
> > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
> >
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3691 - Release Date: 06/09/11 19:34:00
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
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--
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Logikal Solutions
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http://www.infiniteexposure.net

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John B-2 John B-2
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Re: Feature request - Lotus Wordpro tabs

Dear Roland

It reminds me of that Guinness Ad on "Cold Guinness" where the barman
says "your the 15th person today I've told that there is no call for
Cold Guinness".

I remember the 1st time I saw Lotus Smart Suite, this chap had just 2
files - Private and Business, he opened up the private one and inside
were group tabs saying [+Gas], [+Electricity] etc - it thought  "of
course", it was like a Eureka moment.

Ask any other software user to find a current client document from 6
months ago let alone 10, 20 years ago!; And of course if you have a
client called "Fred Bloggs" you don't have to think up new file names
each time you send a new letter such a
"fred_blogs_fax_17_06_11_reply_London_office".

I am assuming the "they" you refer to, is IBM

thanks

John B

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 17/06/2011 15:20, Roland Hughes wrote:

> If you visit the bug report site, you will see I have filed several bugs
> on this issue.  They cannot implement WordPro tabs until they implement
> WordPro windows for documents.  Right now they have taken the brain dead
> Microsoft approach of having each document as a tab.
>
>
> On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 14:56 +0100, John B wrote:
>
>> Tom
>>
>> Thanks - I have posted the request  below  today - I will let you know
>> if I get a response.
>>
>> I note that on the new IBM Lotus Symphony Web site - this has to be the
>> most angered and fought for request (1000's), but IBM have now disowned
>> its own software in favour of making the new cut down 3 progs suit "not
>> compatible", OOo used to!, but LibreOffice have taken up the challenge
>> in as much as LO can read the files - although the original formatting
>> is a bit hit and miss.
>>
>>   >>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>> [wish-list]
>>
>> /There must be 10's of thousands of Lotus Smart Suite users who use
>> Lotus Wordpro who cannot move (locked in) to any other software because
>> of a brilliant internal tab filing structure within wordpro. This is
>> where you can put standard tabs inside Group tabs.
>>
>> Because Libreoffice thankfully support Lotus Smart Suite documents (and
>> IBM no longer do), you would be the natural inheritor for all these folk.
>>
>> At the moment I am not aware of any other software that even have tab
>> documents within a Word processor so you would be unique.
>>
>> One tab can be for any amount of pages (also called a division).
>>
>> The beauty of tab documents is that in one file you can have all the
>> documents for say one client, one book etc. laid out in say years +2011,
>> +2010 ..... +1995 or chapters etc. and inside (by clicking the +) the
>> group tab opens up and you can have inside other tabs for all that years
>> correspondence or headings or whatever etc).
>>
>> Now by having them all in one file, then a document produced in say 2000
>> is not archived or deleted as every time a new document is added the
>> whole file is updated to the current date, so backing up by current date
>> massively improves.
>>
>> I have files on current clients that go back to 1991, the "+" means that
>> it is a "group tab" and that there are other tabs inside (and maybe more
>> inside them) etc., Hence its an effective filing structure to handle
>> multi documents.
>>
>> I have group tabs that go like this "+1990's">  "+1991">  "Contracts">
>> (then a single tab "12/03/91"
>>
>> Hence, you can also go straight to a division, click on it and Print it
>> as a separate item. You can copy&  paste, insert, you can move a tab,
>> (like making it the 1st or last page(s) in a document.
>>
>> The problem now is that if a Wordpro document, fully tabbed with say 10
>> - 1000 Tabs and by transferring it to LibreOfice it just becomes an
>> unmanageable 10 to say 10,000 pages, with no structure.
>>
>> Managing large documents or many documents over a long period of time
>> becomes achievable with Tabs (divisions)
>>
>> I would have thought that this would be useful in any word processor.
>> Please consider this
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>> John Brassington
>> /
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> On 10/06/2011 14:42, Tom Davies wrote:
>>> Hi :)
>>> This guide might help?
>>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport
>>>
>>> I think i would post as a normal bug but put "" at the start of the
>>> subject-line (unless the guide has better advice!)
>>> Regards from
>>> Tom :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: John B<[hidden email]>
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Sent: Fri, 10 June, 2011 12:20:01
>>> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Feature request - area?
>>>
>>>
>>> Is there an area where Feature Requests are posted?
>>>
>>> John B
>>>
>>> -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
>>> In case of problems unsubscribing, write to [hidden email]
>>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
>>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3691 - Release Date: 06/09/11 19:34:00
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
>> In case of problems unsubscribing, write to [hidden email]
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>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3702 - Release Date: 06/13/11 19:34:00
>


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Roland Hughes Roland Hughes
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Re: Feature request - Lotus Wordpro tabs

Dear John,

uh-oh...that sounds like an ominous opening!  <Grin>

Actually, the "they" I refer to is every other word processor on the
face of the planet.

I never abused/relied on the tab system as a document control
architecture.  I used it to segregate out the portions of a writing
project.  Each chapter had its own tab, various tabs had notes and
clippings from other sources, etc.  You could re-arrange the tabs and
put together a perfect book by tagging which tabs printed and which
didn't.  It was a mind blowing architecture.

I don't have problems finding client documents which are 20 years old.
I create a directory for each client.  If I don't do any billable work
for that client in 6 years, I simply delete the directory during the
next OS/machine upgrade.



On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 16:17 +0100, John B wrote:

> Dear Roland
>
> It reminds me of that Guinness Ad on "Cold Guinness" where the barman
> says "your the 15th person today I've told that there is no call for
> Cold Guinness".
>
> I remember the 1st time I saw Lotus Smart Suite, this chap had just 2
> files - Private and Business, he opened up the private one and inside
> were group tabs saying [+Gas], [+Electricity] etc - it thought  "of
> course", it was like a Eureka moment.
>
> Ask any other software user to find a current client document from 6
> months ago let alone 10, 20 years ago!; And of course if you have a
> client called "Fred Bloggs" you don't have to think up new file names
> each time you send a new letter such a
> "fred_blogs_fax_17_06_11_reply_London_office".
>
> I am assuming the "they" you refer to, is IBM
>
> thanks
>
> John B
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> On 17/06/2011 15:20, Roland Hughes wrote:
> > If you visit the bug report site, you will see I have filed several bugs
> > on this issue.  They cannot implement WordPro tabs until they implement
> > WordPro windows for documents.  Right now they have taken the brain dead
> > Microsoft approach of having each document as a tab.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 14:56 +0100, John B wrote:
> >
> >> Tom
> >>
> >> Thanks - I have posted the request  below  today - I will let you know
> >> if I get a response.
> >>
> >> I note that on the new IBM Lotus Symphony Web site - this has to be the
> >> most angered and fought for request (1000's), but IBM have now disowned
> >> its own software in favour of making the new cut down 3 progs suit "not
> >> compatible", OOo used to!, but LibreOffice have taken up the challenge
> >> in as much as LO can read the files - although the original formatting
> >> is a bit hit and miss.
> >>
> >>   >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>
> >> [wish-list]
> >>
> >> /There must be 10's of thousands of Lotus Smart Suite users who use
> >> Lotus Wordpro who cannot move (locked in) to any other software because
> >> of a brilliant internal tab filing structure within wordpro. This is
> >> where you can put standard tabs inside Group tabs.
> >>
> >> Because Libreoffice thankfully support Lotus Smart Suite documents (and
> >> IBM no longer do), you would be the natural inheritor for all these folk.
> >>
> >> At the moment I am not aware of any other software that even have tab
> >> documents within a Word processor so you would be unique.
> >>
> >> One tab can be for any amount of pages (also called a division).
> >>
> >> The beauty of tab documents is that in one file you can have all the
> >> documents for say one client, one book etc. laid out in say years +2011,
> >> +2010 ..... +1995 or chapters etc. and inside (by clicking the +) the
> >> group tab opens up and you can have inside other tabs for all that years
> >> correspondence or headings or whatever etc).
> >>
> >> Now by having them all in one file, then a document produced in say 2000
> >> is not archived or deleted as every time a new document is added the
> >> whole file is updated to the current date, so backing up by current date
> >> massively improves.
> >>
> >> I have files on current clients that go back to 1991, the "+" means that
> >> it is a "group tab" and that there are other tabs inside (and maybe more
> >> inside them) etc., Hence its an effective filing structure to handle
> >> multi documents.
> >>
> >> I have group tabs that go like this "+1990's">  "+1991">  "Contracts">
> >> (then a single tab "12/03/91"
> >>
> >> Hence, you can also go straight to a division, click on it and Print it
> >> as a separate item. You can copy&  paste, insert, you can move a tab,
> >> (like making it the 1st or last page(s) in a document.
> >>
> >> The problem now is that if a Wordpro document, fully tabbed with say 10
> >> - 1000 Tabs and by transferring it to LibreOfice it just becomes an
> >> unmanageable 10 to say 10,000 pages, with no structure.
> >>
> >> Managing large documents or many documents over a long period of time
> >> becomes achievable with Tabs (divisions)
> >>
> >> I would have thought that this would be useful in any word processor.
> >> Please consider this
> >>
> >> Thank you
> >>
> >> John Brassington
> >> /
> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >> On 10/06/2011 14:42, Tom Davies wrote:
> >>> Hi :)
> >>> This guide might help?
> >>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport
> >>>
> >>> I think i would post as a normal bug but put "" at the start of the
> >>> subject-line (unless the guide has better advice!)
> >>> Regards from
> >>> Tom :)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: John B<[hidden email]>
> >>> To: [hidden email]
> >>> Sent: Fri, 10 June, 2011 12:20:01
> >>> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Feature request - area?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Is there an area where Feature Requests are posted?
> >>>
> >>> John B
> >>>
> >>> -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
> >>> In case of problems unsubscribing, write to [hidden email]
> >>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> >>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
> >>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>> Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3691 - Release Date: 06/09/11 19:34:00
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
> >> In case of problems unsubscribing, write to [hidden email]
> >> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> >> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
> >> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
> >
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3702 - Release Date: 06/13/11 19:34:00
> >
>
>


--
Roland Hughes, President
Logikal Solutions
(630)-205-1593

http://www.theminimumyouneedtoknow.com
http://www.infiniteexposure.net

No U.S. troops have ever lost their lives defending our ethanol
reserves.

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John B-2 John B-2
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Feature request - Lotus Wordpro tabs

Dear Roland

My mistake,  I thought that /[the brain dead//Microsoft//approach of
having each document as a tab]/ refers to Lotus Symphony which loads
each document in as a separate (big fat pointless) tab - as that is the
only word software program I know, that uses those tabs (hence, what do
I know!).

Whilst I might think Tabs / divisions are a must have, maybe,  this
should be a bolt on in LibreOffice (for Smartsuite users) and not a
bloat on.

My eldest son, now uses Smartsuite (an MS convert)  to swing proposals
around and he is also writing his 1st book. [chapter 1] [chapter 2]....

Actually, one of the things I would miss would be not to have the
ability to change the page settings in each division, how do people cope?

Calling all bolt on programmers!

regards

John

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



On 17/06/2011 16:43, Roland Hughes wrote:

> Dear John,
>
> uh-oh...that sounds like an ominous opening!<Grin>
>
> Actually, the "they" I refer to is every other word processor on the
> face of the planet.
>
> I never abused/relied on the tab system as a document control
> architecture.  I used it to segregate out the portions of a writing
> project.  Each chapter had its own tab, various tabs had notes and
> clippings from other sources, etc.  You could re-arrange the tabs and
> put together a perfect book by tagging which tabs printed and which
> didn't.  It was a mind blowing architecture.
>
> I don't have problems finding client documents which are 20 years old.
> I create a directory for each client.  If I don't do any billable work
> for that client in 6 years, I simply delete the directory during the
> next OS/machine upgrade.
>
>
>
> On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 16:17 +0100, John B wrote:
>
>> Dear Roland
>>
>> It reminds me of that Guinness Ad on "Cold Guinness" where the barman
>> says "your the 15th person today I've told that there is no call for
>> Cold Guinness".
>>
>> I remember the 1st time I saw Lotus Smart Suite, this chap had just 2
>> files - Private and Business, he opened up the private one and inside
>> were group tabs saying [+Gas], [+Electricity] etc - it thought  "of
>> course", it was like a Eureka moment.
>>
>> Ask any other software user to find a current client document from 6
>> months ago let alone 10, 20 years ago!; And of course if you have a
>> client called "Fred Bloggs" you don't have to think up new file names
>> each time you send a new letter such a
>> "fred_blogs_fax_17_06_11_reply_London_office".
>>
>> I am assuming the "they" you refer to, is IBM
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> John B
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> On 17/06/2011 15:20, Roland Hughes wrote:
>>> If you visit the bug report site, you will see I have filed several bugs
>>> on this issue.  They cannot implement WordPro tabs until they implement
>>> WordPro windows for documents.  Right now they have taken  approach of having each document as a tab.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 14:56 +0100, John B wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> Thanks - I have posted the request  below  today - I will let you know
>>>> if I get a response.
>>>>
>>>> I note that on the new IBM Lotus Symphony Web site - this has to be the
>>>> most angered and fought for request (1000's), but IBM have now disowned
>>>> its own software in favour of making the new cut down 3 progs suit "not
>>>> compatible", OOo used to!, but LibreOffice have taken up the challenge
>>>> in as much as LO can read the files - although the original formatting
>>>> is a bit hit and miss.
>>>>
>>>>    >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [wish-list]
>>>>
>>>> /There must be 10's of thousands of Lotus Smart Suite users who use
>>>> Lotus Wordpro who cannot move (locked in) to any other software because
>>>> of a brilliant internal tab filing structure within wordpro. This is
>>>> where you can put standard tabs inside Group tabs.
>>>>
>>>> Because Libreoffice thankfully support Lotus Smart Suite documents (and
>>>> IBM no longer do), you would be the natural inheritor for all these folk.
>>>>
>>>> At the moment I am not aware of any other software that even have tab
>>>> documents within a Word processor so you would be unique.
>>>>
>>>> One tab can be for any amount of pages (also called a division).
>>>>
>>>> The beauty of tab documents is that in one file you can have all the
>>>> documents for say one client, one book etc. laid out in say years +2011,
>>>> +2010 ..... +1995 or chapters etc. and inside (by clicking the +) the
>>>> group tab opens up and you can have inside other tabs for all that years
>>>> correspondence or headings or whatever etc).
>>>>
>>>> Now by having them all in one file, then a document produced in say 2000
>>>> is not archived or deleted as every time a new document is added the
>>>> whole file is updated to the current date, so backing up by current date
>>>> massively improves.
>>>>
>>>> I have files on current clients that go back to 1991, the "+" means that
>>>> it is a "group tab" and that there are other tabs inside (and maybe more
>>>> inside them) etc., Hence its an effective filing structure to handle
>>>> multi documents.
>>>>
>>>> I have group tabs that go like this "+1990's">   "+1991">   "Contracts">
>>>> (then a single tab "12/03/91"
>>>>
>>>> Hence, you can also go straight to a division, click on it and Print it
>>>> as a separate item. You can copy&   paste, insert, you can move a tab,
>>>> (like making it the 1st or last page(s) in a document.
>>>>
>>>> The problem now is that if a Wordpro document, fully tabbed with say 10
>>>> - 1000 Tabs and by transferring it to LibreOfice it just becomes an
>>>> unmanageable 10 to say 10,000 pages, with no structure.
>>>>
>>>> Managing large documents or many documents over a long period of time
>>>> becomes achievable with Tabs (divisions)
>>>>
>>>> I would have thought that this would be useful in any word processor.
>>>> Please consider this
>>>>
>>>> Thank you
>>>>
>>>> John Brassington
>>>> /
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/06/2011 14:42, Tom Davies wrote:
>>>>> Hi :)
>>>>> This guide might help?
>>>>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport
>>>>>
>>>>> I think i would post as a normal bug but put "" at the start of the
>>>>> subject-line (unless the guide has better advice!)
>>>>> Regards from
>>>>> Tom :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: John B<[hidden email]>
>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>> Sent: Fri, 10 June, 2011 12:20:01
>>>>> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Feature request - area?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there an area where Feature Requests are posted?
>>>>>
>>>>> John B
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
>>>>> In case of problems unsubscribing, write to [hidden email]
>>>>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>>>>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
>>>>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3691 - Release Date: 06/09/11 19:34:00
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
>>>> In case of problems unsubscribing, write to [hidden email]
>>>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>>>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
>>>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3702 - Release Date: 06/13/11 19:34:00
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3702 - Release Date: 06/13/11 19:34:00
>


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Roland Hughes Roland Hughes
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Re: Feature request - Lotus Wordpro tabs

Dear John,

It will not work as a bolt on.  I really really REALLY thought IBM was
finally going to sort this out, since they have the ENTIRE WordPro file
specification.  The OpenDocument file format has to have many things
added to it in order to support tabbed document divisions.  Mainly, it
has to have XML to identify those divisions as completely separate "sub
documents" which only allow a small amount of things to carry over from
the parent/enclosing document.  Each "subdocument" has its own flags to
support current page number, print/hide, previous/next subdocs, etc.

Eliminating the existing tabs and replacing them with the Window menu
item IS only a programming change.  It doesn't require any change to the
file specification.

Between the above programming change and the tabbed document
specification enhancement, the OpenDocument format MUST add complete
support for embedding ALL fonts used in the document within the document
file.  WordPerfect had this feature for decades, and that is one of the
major reasons WordPerfect took so long to disappear from the market
place, even though it kept charging $400+ for its product.  That one
little feature, combined with turning off the system wide setting for
auto-format-for-default-printer, made a WordPerfect document completely
portable.

First we have to remove the ugly/nasty/useless tab interface.
Then we have to make documents 100% portable.
Then we can add tabbed document divisions just like WordPro.


On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 19:28 +0100, John B wrote:

> Dear Roland
>
> My mistake,  I thought that /[the brain dead//Microsoft//approach of
> having each document as a tab]/ refers to Lotus Symphony which loads
> each document in as a separate (big fat pointless) tab - as that is the
> only word software program I know, that uses those tabs (hence, what do
> I know!).
>
> Whilst I might think Tabs / divisions are a must have, maybe,  this
> should be a bolt on in LibreOffice (for Smartsuite users) and not a
> bloat on.
>
> My eldest son, now uses Smartsuite (an MS convert)  to swing proposals
> around and he is also writing his 1st book. [chapter 1] [chapter 2]....
>
> Actually, one of the things I would miss would be not to have the
> ability to change the page settings in each division, how do people cope?
>
> Calling all bolt on programmers!
>
> regards
>
> John
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> On 17/06/2011 16:43, Roland Hughes wrote:
> > Dear John,
> >
> > uh-oh...that sounds like an ominous opening!<Grin>
> >
> > Actually, the "they" I refer to is every other word processor on the
> > face of the planet.
> >
> > I never abused/relied on the tab system as a document control
> > architecture.  I used it to segregate out the portions of a writing
> > project.  Each chapter had its own tab, various tabs had notes and
> > clippings from other sources, etc.  You could re-arrange the tabs and
> > put together a perfect book by tagging which tabs printed and which
> > didn't.  It was a mind blowing architecture.
> >
> > I don't have problems finding client documents which are 20 years old.
> > I create a directory for each client.  If I don't do any billable work
> > for that client in 6 years, I simply delete the directory during the
> > next OS/machine upgrade.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 16:17 +0100, John B wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Roland
> >>
> >> It reminds me of that Guinness Ad on "Cold Guinness" where the barman
> >> says "your the 15th person today I've told that there is no call for
> >> Cold Guinness".
> >>
> >> I remember the 1st time I saw Lotus Smart Suite, this chap had just 2
> >> files - Private and Business, he opened up the private one and inside
> >> were group tabs saying [+Gas], [+Electricity] etc - it thought  "of
> >> course", it was like a Eureka moment.
> >>
> >> Ask any other software user to find a current client document from 6
> >> months ago let alone 10, 20 years ago!; And of course if you have a
> >> client called "Fred Bloggs" you don't have to think up new file names
> >> each time you send a new letter such a
> >> "fred_blogs_fax_17_06_11_reply_London_office".
> >>
> >> I am assuming the "they" you refer to, is IBM
> >>
> >> thanks
> >>
> >> John B
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >> On 17/06/2011 15:20, Roland Hughes wrote:
> >>> If you visit the bug report site, you will see I have filed several bugs
> >>> on this issue.  They cannot implement WordPro tabs until they implement
> >>> WordPro windows for documents.  Right now they have taken  approach of having each document as a tab.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 14:56 +0100, John B wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Tom
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks - I have posted the request  below  today - I will let you know
> >>>> if I get a response.
> >>>>
> >>>> I note that on the new IBM Lotus Symphony Web site - this has to be the
> >>>> most angered and fought for request (1000's), but IBM have now disowned
> >>>> its own software in favour of making the new cut down 3 progs suit "not
> >>>> compatible", OOo used to!, but LibreOffice have taken up the challenge
> >>>> in as much as LO can read the files - although the original formatting
> >>>> is a bit hit and miss.
> >>>>
> >>>>    >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> [wish-list]
> >>>>
> >>>> /There must be 10's of thousands of Lotus Smart Suite users who use
> >>>> Lotus Wordpro who cannot move (locked in) to any other software because
> >>>> of a brilliant internal tab filing structure within wordpro. This is
> >>>> where you can put standard tabs inside Group tabs.
> >>>>
> >>>> Because Libreoffice thankfully support Lotus Smart Suite documents (and
> >>>> IBM no longer do), you would be the natural inheritor for all these folk.
> >>>>
> >>>> At the moment I am not aware of any other software that even have tab
> >>>> documents within a Word processor so you would be unique.
> >>>>
> >>>> One tab can be for any amount of pages (also called a division).
> >>>>
> >>>> The beauty of tab documents is that in one file you can have all the
> >>>> documents for say one client, one book etc. laid out in say years +2011,
> >>>> +2010 ..... +1995 or chapters etc. and inside (by clicking the +) the
> >>>> group tab opens up and you can have inside other tabs for all that years
> >>>> correspondence or headings or whatever etc).
> >>>>
> >>>> Now by having them all in one file, then a document produced in say 2000
> >>>> is not archived or deleted as every time a new document is added the
> >>>> whole file is updated to the current date, so backing up by current date
> >>>> massively improves.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have files on current clients that go back to 1991, the "+" means that
> >>>> it is a "group tab" and that there are other tabs inside (and maybe more
> >>>> inside them) etc., Hence its an effective filing structure to handle
> >>>> multi documents.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have group tabs that go like this "+1990's">   "+1991">   "Contracts">
> >>>> (then a single tab "12/03/91"
> >>>>
> >>>> Hence, you can also go straight to a division, click on it and Print it
> >>>> as a separate item. You can copy&   paste, insert, you can move a tab,
> >>>> (like making it the 1st or last page(s) in a document.
> >>>>
> >>>> The problem now is that if a Wordpro document, fully tabbed with say 10
> >>>> - 1000 Tabs and by transferring it to LibreOfice it just becomes an
> >>>> unmanageable 10 to say 10,000 pages, with no structure.
> >>>>
> >>>> Managing large documents or many documents over a long period of time
> >>>> becomes achievable with Tabs (divisions)
> >>>>
> >>>> I would have thought that this would be useful in any word processor.
> >>>> Please consider this
> >>>>
> >>>> Thank you
> >>>>
> >>>> John Brassington
> >>>> /
> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 10/06/2011 14:42, Tom Davies wrote:
> >>>>> Hi :)
> >>>>> This guide might help?
> >>>>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think i would post as a normal bug but put "" at the start of the
> >>>>> subject-line (unless the guide has better advice!)
> >>>>> Regards from
> >>>>> Tom :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>> From: John B<[hidden email]>
> >>>>> To: [hidden email]
> >>>>> Sent: Fri, 10 June, 2011 12:20:01
> >>>>> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Feature request - area?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is there an area where Feature Requests are posted?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> John B
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
> >>>>> In case of problems unsubscribing, write to [hidden email]
> >>>>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> >>>>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
> >>>>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>>>> Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3691 - Release Date: 06/09/11 19:34:00
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
> >>>> In case of problems unsubscribing, write to [hidden email]
> >>>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> >>>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
> >>>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>> Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3702 - Release Date: 06/13/11 19:34:00
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3702 - Release Date: 06/13/11 19:34:00
> >
>
>


--
Roland Hughes, President
Logikal Solutions
(630)-205-1593

http://www.theminimumyouneedtoknow.com
http://www.infiniteexposure.net

No U.S. troops have ever lost their lives defending our ethanol
reserves.

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Zak McKracken Zak McKracken
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Re: Feature request - Lotus Wordpro tabs

In reply to this post by Roland Hughes
Am 17.06.2011, 16:20 Uhr, schrieb Roland Hughes  
<[hidden email]>:

> If you visit the bug report site, you will see I have filed several bugs
> on this issue.  They cannot implement WordPro tabs until they implement
> WordPro windows for documents.  Right now they have taken the brain dead
> Microsoft approach of having each document as a tab.


Hmm... I'm not actually sure what this WordPro feature looks like (never
seen WordPro in action), but maybe there are ways to achieve something
similar in LibreOffce:

- simplest: Use headings to navigate longer documents. Not suitable for  
filed letters and stuff, but for longer documents with chapters very nice.  
You get a chapter list in the navigator (F5) and can jump between them.

- also simple way to view different parts of the same document at once:  
Window -> New window
This opens a new window for the same window, the contents are identical,  
but you can view different parts of the document at the same time.

- Use different regions for different "tabs". Insert->region
   Each region can have different page or column layouts,and so on, but  
will share format and page templates. Also, the navigator shows different  
regions, and you can jump between them

- Use a global document (see also LO help for Global documents). You can  
have several documents and link them into one global document. There, they  
share the same format templates, the single documents are displayed as  
regions, and they can (but do not have to) be read-only. A doubleclick  
opens the original file for editing. So you could link all documents  
regarding one client/case into one global document, so you can print them  
all at once, or skip through them quickly or whatever it is you do with  
those documents.
Global documents are also nice for very large pieces of work (books or  
image-heavy documents. You can edit the single parts independently,  
without having to load and handle the whole monster at once, then look at  
it in all its glory in the global document. You can even create a new  
sub-document from within the global document (but you'll need to give it a  
filename)


All of this is probably not the same you're used to having, and porting  
existing docs over is not likely easy. but it might work to achieve a  
similar effect as the one you're describing.



... but why are you posting this in the "SVG embedding" thread? :)


Zak


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Zak McKracken Zak McKracken
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Re: Re: Re: Re: SVG embedding in LibreOffice

In reply to this post by Tom

>> So what is the decision on the svg embedding?  For me at lest  SVG
>> support is even more important than EPS support.
>>
>> Todd
>>
>
> Hi :)
> I don't think there is a definite final answer yet.  It seems that Svg  
> work is
> scheduled for Googles' Summer of Code (GSoC).


The GSoC work is SVG export (not a bad thing to have, either, and at least  
SVG should be able to contain everything that LO makes, so that is one  
problem less that SVG export has compared to "import" (read conversion).
I saw a commetn from Thorsten Behrens in the bugtracker somwhere ... ah,  
here:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31460

So there seems to be light, but unless there's a proper statement we won't  
know.

Zak


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Roland Hughes Roland Hughes
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Re: Feature request - Lotus Wordpro tabs

In reply to this post by Zak McKracken
It won't be anywhere near close.  Get a copy of SmartSuit 98 or later
and see what a word processor was supposed to be.

On Sun, 2011-06-19 at 23:20 +0200, Zak McKracken wrote:

> Am 17.06.2011, 16:20 Uhr, schrieb Roland Hughes  
> <[hidden email]>:
>
> > If you visit the bug report site, you will see I have filed several bugs
> > on this issue.  They cannot implement WordPro tabs until they implement
> > WordPro windows for documents.  Right now they have taken the brain dead
> > Microsoft approach of having each document as a tab.
>
>
> Hmm... I'm not actually sure what this WordPro feature looks like (never
> seen WordPro in action), but maybe there are ways to achieve something
> similar in LibreOffce:
>
> - simplest: Use headings to navigate longer documents. Not suitable for  
> filed letters and stuff, but for longer documents with chapters very nice.  
> You get a chapter list in the navigator (F5) and can jump between them.
>
> - also simple way to view different parts of the same document at once:  
> Window -> New window
> This opens a new window for the same window, the contents are identical,  
> but you can view different parts of the document at the same time.
>
> - Use different regions for different "tabs". Insert->region
>    Each region can have different page or column layouts,and so on, but  
> will share format and page templates. Also, the navigator shows different  
> regions, and you can jump between them
>
> - Use a global document (see also LO help for Global documents). You can  
> have several documents and link them into one global document. There, they  
> share the same format templates, the single documents are displayed as  
> regions, and they can (but do not have to) be read-only. A doubleclick  
> opens the original file for editing. So you could link all documents  
> regarding one client/case into one global document, so you can print them  
> all at once, or skip through them quickly or whatever it is you do with  
> those documents.
> Global documents are also nice for very large pieces of work (books or  
> image-heavy documents. You can edit the single parts independently,  
> without having to load and handle the whole monster at once, then look at  
> it in all its glory in the global document. You can even create a new  
> sub-document from within the global document (but you'll need to give it a  
> filename)
>
>
> All of this is probably not the same you're used to having, and porting  
> existing docs over is not likely easy. but it might work to achieve a  
> similar effect as the one you're describing.
>
>
>
> ... but why are you posting this in the "SVG embedding" thread? :)
>
>
> Zak
>
>


--
Roland Hughes, President
Logikal Solutions
(630)-205-1593

http://www.theminimumyouneedtoknow.com
http://www.infiniteexposure.net

No U.S. troops have ever lost their lives defending our ethanol
reserves.

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Re: Feature request - Lotus Wordpro tabs

Le 20/06/11 01:40, Roland Hughes a écrit :

Hi Roland,

> It won't be anywhere near close.  Get a copy of SmartSuit 98 or later
> and see what a word processor was supposed to be.
>

Shame that such good functionality was left by the wayside by IBM...coz
it was damned handy !!

Alex


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John B-2 John B-2
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Feature request - Lotus Wordpro tabs

In reply to this post by Roland Hughes
Dear Roland, Tom & Alex

Wow! - I  actually just received a reply (Below) from the bug site:-  
there was me thinking all that was required was hidden extra code at the
top of every page  "Am I a tabbed page or not?" if so "what is my name",
"do I belong to a group", "My tab is green" - simples

I am not a programmer!

But, I am more than delighted to get a response from such a source, even
though, not the hopeful one I would have wished for.

Its a bit like:-  If you need BOLD, just put it through the printer twice

I guess Roland, from you comments you must have received a similar
response to your bug reports?

So - Any Volunteers?

Regards


John B

 >>>>

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=38401

--- Comment #1 from Michael Meeks<[hidden email]>  2011-06-20 07:36:10 PDT ---
IMHO implementing the tab feature would take quite some work here, instead it
might be good to insert a set of links in the document at the top to allow
quick jumping to the various sections;

But of course, this is all work. Lets see if some volunteer jumps in to do it -
otherwise if you pay someone to do the work, you can have it done as you like I
guess.

 >>>>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Le 20/06/11 01:40, Roland Hughes a écrit :

Hi Roland,


> >  It won't be anywhere near close.  Get a copy of SmartSuit 98 or later
> >  and see what a word processor was supposed to be.
> >  
Shame that such good functionality was left by the wayside by IBM...coz
it was damned handy !!

Alex

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 17/06/2011 19:37, Roland Hughes wrote:

> Dear John,
>
> It will not work as a bolt on.  I really really REALLY thought IBM was
> finally going to sort this out, since they have the ENTIRE WordPro file
> specification.  The OpenDocument file format has to have many things
> added to it in order to support tabbed document divisions.  Mainly, it
> has to have XML to identify those divisions as completely separate "sub
> documents" which only allow a small amount of things to carry over from
> the parent/enclosing document.  Each "subdocument" has its own flags to
> support current page number, print/hide, previous/next subdocs, etc.
>
> Eliminating the existing tabs and replacing them with the Window menu
> item IS only a programming change.  It doesn't require any change to the
> file specification.
>
> Between the above programming change and the tabbed document
> specification enhancement, the OpenDocument format MUST add complete
> support for embedding ALL fonts used in the document within the document
> file.  WordPerfect had this feature for decades, and that is one of the
> major reasons WordPerfect took so long to disappear from the market
> place, even though it kept charging $400+ for its product.  That one
> little feature, combined with turning off the system wide setting for
> auto-format-for-default-printer, made a WordPerfect document completely
> portable.
>
> First we have to remove the ugly/nasty/useless tab interface.
> Then we have to make documents 100% portable.
> Then we can add tabbed document divisions just like WordPro.
>
>
> On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 19:28 +0100, John B wrote:
>
>> Dear Roland
>>
>> My mistake,  I thought that /[the brain dead//Microsoft//approach of
>> having each document as a tab]/ refers to Lotus Symphony which loads
>> each document in as a separate (big fat pointless) tab - as that is the
>> only word software program I know, that uses those tabs (hence, what do
>> I know!).
>>
>> Whilst I might think Tabs / divisions are a must have, maybe,  this
>> should be a bolt on in LibreOffice (for Smartsuite users) and not a
>> bloat on.
>>
>> My eldest son, now uses Smartsuite (an MS convert)  to swing proposals
>> around and he is also writing his 1st book. [chapter 1] [chapter 2]....
>>
>> Actually, one of the things I would miss would be not to have the
>> ability to change the page settings in each division, how do people cope?
>>
>> Calling all bolt on programmers!
>>
>> regards
>>
>> John
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> On 17/06/2011 16:43, Roland Hughes wrote:
>>> Dear John,
>>>
>>> uh-oh...that sounds like an ominous opening!<Grin>
>>>
>>> Actually, the "they" I refer to is every other word processor on the
>>> face of the planet.
>>>
>>> I never abused/relied on the tab system as a document control
>>> architecture.  I used it to segregate out the portions of a writing
>>> project.  Each chapter had its own tab, various tabs had notes and
>>> clippings from other sources, etc.  You could re-arrange the tabs and
>>> put together a perfect book by tagging which tabs printed and which
>>> didn't.  It was a mind blowing architecture.
>>>
>>> I don't have problems finding client documents which are 20 years old.
>>> I create a directory for each client.  If I don't do any billable work
>>> for that client in 6 years, I simply delete the directory during the
>>> next OS/machine upgrade.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 16:17 +0100, John B wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Roland
>>>>
>>>> It reminds me of that Guinness Ad on "Cold Guinness" where the barman
>>>> says "your the 15th person today I've told that there is no call for
>>>> Cold Guinness".
>>>>
>>>> I remember the 1st time I saw Lotus Smart Suite, this chap had just 2
>>>> files - Private and Business, he opened up the private one and inside
>>>> were group tabs saying [+Gas], [+Electricity] etc - i thought  "of
>>>> course", it was like a Eureka moment.
>>>>
>>>> Ask any other software user to find a current client document from 6
>>>> months ago let alone 10, 20 years ago!; And of course if you have a
>>>> client called "Fred Bloggs" you don't have to think up new file names
>>>> each time you send a new letter such a
>>>> "fred_blogs_fax_17_06_11_reply_London_office".
>>>>
>>>> I am assuming the "they" you refer to, is IBM
>>>>
>>>> thanks
>>>>
>>>> John B
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 17/06/2011 15:20, Roland Hughes wrote:
>>>>> If you visit the bug report site, you will see I have filed several bugs
>>>>> on this issue.  They cannot implement WordPro tabs until they implement
>>>>> WordPro windows for documents.  Right now they have taken  approach of having each document as a tab.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 14:56 +0100, John B wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks - I have posted the request  below  today - I will let you know
>>>>>> if I get a response.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I note that on the new IBM Lotus Symphony Web site - this has to be the
>>>>>> most angered and fought for request (1000's), but IBM have now disowned
>>>>>> its own software in favour of making the new cut down 3 progs suit "not
>>>>>> compatible", OOo used to!, but LibreOffice have taken up the challenge
>>>>>> in as much as LO can read the files - although the original formatting
>>>>>> is a bit hit and miss.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [wish-list]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /There must be 10's of thousands of Lotus Smart Suite users who use
>>>>>> Lotus Wordpro who cannot move (locked in) to any other software because
>>>>>> of a brilliant internal tab filing structure within wordpro. This is
>>>>>> where you can put standard tabs inside Group tabs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because Libreoffice thankfully support Lotus Smart Suite documents (and
>>>>>> IBM no longer do), you would be the natural inheritor for all these folk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the moment I am not aware of any other software that even have tab
>>>>>> documents within a Word processor so you would be unique.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One tab can be for any amount of pages (also called a division).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The beauty of tab documents is that in one file you can have all the
>>>>>> documents for say one client, one book etc. laid out in say years +2011,
>>>>>> +2010 ..... +1995 or chapters etc. and inside (by clicking the +) the
>>>>>> group tab opens up and you can have inside other tabs for all that years
>>>>>> correspondence or headings or whatever etc).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now by having them all in one file, then a document produced in say 2000
>>>>>> is not archived or deleted as every time a new document is added the
>>>>>> whole file is updated to the current date, so backing up by current date
>>>>>> massively improves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have files on current clients that go back to 1991, the "+" means that
>>>>>> it is a "group tab" and that there are other tabs inside (and maybe more
>>>>>> inside them) etc., Hence its an effective filing structure to handle
>>>>>> multi documents.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have group tabs that go like this "+1990's">    "+1991">    "Contracts">
>>>>>> (then a single tab "12/03/91"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hence, you can also go straight to a division, click on it and Print it
>>>>>> as a separate item. You can copy&    paste, insert, you can move a tab,
>>>>>> (like making it the 1st or last page(s) in a document.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem now is that if a Wordpro document, fully tabbed with say 10
>>>>>> - 1000 Tabs and by transferring it to LibreOfice it just becomes an
>>>>>> unmanageable 10 to say 10,000 pages, with no structure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Managing large documents or many documents over a long period of time
>>>>>> becomes achievable with Tabs (divisions)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would have thought that this would be useful in any word processor.
>>>>>> Please consider this
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Brassington
>>>>>> /
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/06/2011 14:42, Tom Davies wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi :)
>>>>>>> This guide might help?
>>>>>>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think i would post as a normal bug but put "" at the start of the
>>>>>>> subject-line (unless the guide has better advice!)
>>>>>>> Regards from
>>>>>>> Tom :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>> From: John B<[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>>>> Sent: Fri, 10 June, 2011 12:20:01
>>>>>>> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Feature request - area?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there an area where Feature Requests are posted?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John B
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
>>>>>>> In case of problems unsubscribing, write to [hidden email]
>>>>>>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>>>>>>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
>>>>>>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>> Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3691 - Release Date: 06/09/11 19:34:00
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
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>>>>>
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>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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>>>>>
>>>
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>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3702 - Release Date: 06/13/11 19:34:00
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3702 - Release Date: 06/13/11 19:34:00
>


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Roland Hughes Roland Hughes
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Re: Feature request - Lotus Wordpro tabs

I have not received any response (that I know of) from the bug site
regarding WordPro tabs.


On Mon, 2011-06-20 at 18:50 +0100, John B wrote:

> Dear Roland, Tom & Alex
>
> Wow! - I  actually just received a reply (Below) from the bug site:-  
> there was me thinking all that was required was hidden extra code at the
> top of every page  "Am I a tabbed page or not?" if so "what is my name",
> "do I belong to a group", "My tab is green" - simples
>
> I am not a programmer!
>
> But, I am more than delighted to get a response from such a source, even
> though, not the hopeful one I would have wished for.
>
> Its a bit like:-  If you need BOLD, just put it through the printer twice
>
> I guess Roland, from you comments you must have received a similar
> response to your bug reports?
>
> So - Any Volunteers?
>
> Regards
>
>
> John B
>
>  >>>>
>
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=38401
>
> --- Comment #1 from Michael Meeks<[hidden email]>  2011-06-20 07:36:10 PDT ---
> IMHO implementing the tab feature would take quite some work here, instead it
> might be good to insert a set of links in the document at the top to allow
> quick jumping to the various sections;
>
> But of course, this is all work. Lets see if some volunteer jumps in to do it -
> otherwise if you pay someone to do the work, you can have it done as you like I
> guess.
>
>  >>>>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Le 20/06/11 01:40, Roland Hughes a écrit :
>
> Hi Roland,
>
>
> > >  It won't be anywhere near close.  Get a copy of SmartSuit 98 or later
> > >  and see what a word processor was supposed to be.
> > >  
> Shame that such good functionality was left by the wayside by IBM...coz
> it was damned handy !!
>
> Alex
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> On 17/06/2011 19:37, Roland Hughes wrote:
> > Dear John,
> >
> > It will not work as a bolt on.  I really really REALLY thought IBM was
> > finally going to sort this out, since they have the ENTIRE WordPro file
> > specification.  The OpenDocument file format has to have many things
> > added to it in order to support tabbed document divisions.  Mainly, it
> > has to have XML to identify those divisions as completely separate "sub
> > documents" which only allow a small amount of things to carry over from
> > the parent/enclosing document.  Each "subdocument" has its own flags to
> > support current page number, print/hide, previous/next subdocs, etc.
> >
> > Eliminating the existing tabs and replacing them with the Window menu
> > item IS only a programming change.  It doesn't require any change to the
> > file specification.
> >
> > Between the above programming change and the tabbed document
> > specification enhancement, the OpenDocument format MUST add complete
> > support for embedding ALL fonts used in the document within the document
> > file.  WordPerfect had this feature for decades, and that is one of the
> > major reasons WordPerfect took so long to disappear from the market
> > place, even though it kept charging $400+ for its product.  That one
> > little feature, combined with turning off the system wide setting for
> > auto-format-for-default-printer, made a WordPerfect document completely
> > portable.
> >
> > First we have to remove the ugly/nasty/useless tab interface.
> > Then we have to make documents 100% portable.
> > Then we can add tabbed document divisions just like WordPro.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 19:28 +0100, John B wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Roland
> >>
> >> My mistake,  I thought that /[the brain dead//Microsoft//approach of
> >> having each document as a tab]/ refers to Lotus Symphony which loads
> >> each document in as a separate (big fat pointless) tab - as that is the
> >> only word software program I know, that uses those tabs (hence, what do
> >> I know!).
> >>
> >> Whilst I might think Tabs / divisions are a must have, maybe,  this
> >> should be a bolt on in LibreOffice (for Smartsuite users) and not a
> >> bloat on.
> >>
> >> My eldest son, now uses Smartsuite (an MS convert)  to swing proposals
> >> around and he is also writing his 1st book. [chapter 1] [chapter 2]....
> >>
> >> Actually, one of the things I would miss would be not to have the
> >> ability to change the page settings in each division, how do people cope?
> >>
> >> Calling all bolt on programmers!
> >>
> >> regards
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 17/06/2011 16:43, Roland Hughes wrote:
> >>> Dear John,
> >>>
> >>> uh-oh...that sounds like an ominous opening!<Grin>
> >>>
> >>> Actually, the "they" I refer to is every other word processor on the
> >>> face of the planet.
> >>>
> >>> I never abused/relied on the tab system as a document control
> >>> architecture.  I used it to segregate out the portions of a writing
> >>> project.  Each chapter had its own tab, various tabs had notes and
> >>> clippings from other sources, etc.  You could re-arrange the tabs and
> >>> put together a perfect book by tagging which tabs printed and which
> >>> didn't.  It was a mind blowing architecture.
> >>>
> >>> I don't have problems finding client documents which are 20 years old.
> >>> I create a directory for each client.  If I don't do any billable work
> >>> for that client in 6 years, I simply delete the directory during the
> >>> next OS/machine upgrade.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 16:17 +0100, John B wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Dear Roland
> >>>>
> >>>> It reminds me of that Guinness Ad on "Cold Guinness" where the barman
> >>>> says "your the 15th person today I've told that there is no call for
> >>>> Cold Guinness".
> >>>>
> >>>> I remember the 1st time I saw Lotus Smart Suite, this chap had just 2
> >>>> files - Private and Business, he opened up the private one and inside
> >>>> were group tabs saying [+Gas], [+Electricity] etc - i thought  "of
> >>>> course", it was like a Eureka moment.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ask any other software user to find a current client document from 6
> >>>> months ago let alone 10, 20 years ago!; And of course if you have a
> >>>> client called "Fred Bloggs" you don't have to think up new file names
> >>>> each time you send a new letter such a
> >>>> "fred_blogs_fax_17_06_11_reply_London_office".
> >>>>
> >>>> I am assuming the "they" you refer to, is IBM
> >>>>
> >>>> thanks
> >>>>
> >>>> John B
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 17/06/2011 15:20, Roland Hughes wrote:
> >>>>> If you visit the bug report site, you will see I have filed several bugs
> >>>>> on this issue.  They cannot implement WordPro tabs until they implement
> >>>>> WordPro windows for documents.  Right now they have taken  approach of having each document as a tab.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 14:56 +0100, John B wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Tom
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks - I have posted the request  below  today - I will let you know
> >>>>>> if I get a response.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I note that on the new IBM Lotus Symphony Web site - this has to be the
> >>>>>> most angered and fought for request (1000's), but IBM have now disowned
> >>>>>> its own software in favour of making the new cut down 3 progs suit "not
> >>>>>> compatible", OOo used to!, but LibreOffice have taken up the challenge
> >>>>>> in as much as LO can read the files - although the original formatting
> >>>>>> is a bit hit and miss.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>     >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> [wish-list]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> /There must be 10's of thousands of Lotus Smart Suite users who use
> >>>>>> Lotus Wordpro who cannot move (locked in) to any other software because
> >>>>>> of a brilliant internal tab filing structure within wordpro. This is
> >>>>>> where you can put standard tabs inside Group tabs.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Because Libreoffice thankfully support Lotus Smart Suite documents (and
> >>>>>> IBM no longer do), you would be the natural inheritor for all these folk.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> At the moment I am not aware of any other software that even have tab
> >>>>>> documents within a Word processor so you would be unique.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> One tab can be for any amount of pages (also called a division).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The beauty of tab documents is that in one file you can have all the
> >>>>>> documents for say one client, one book etc. laid out in say years +2011,
> >>>>>> +2010 ..... +1995 or chapters etc. and inside (by clicking the +) the
> >>>>>> group tab opens up and you can have inside other tabs for all that years
> >>>>>> correspondence or headings or whatever etc).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Now by having them all in one file, then a document produced in say 2000
> >>>>>> is not archived or deleted as every time a new document is added the
> >>>>>> whole file is updated to the current date, so backing up by current date
> >>>>>> massively improves.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have files on current clients that go back to 1991, the "+" means that
> >>>>>> it is a "group tab" and that there are other tabs inside (and maybe more
> >>>>>> inside them) etc., Hence its an effective filing structure to handle
> >>>>>> multi documents.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have group tabs that go like this "+1990's">    "+1991">    "Contracts">
> >>>>>> (then a single tab "12/03/91"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hence, you can also go straight to a division, click on it and Print it
> >>>>>> as a separate item. You can copy&    paste, insert, you can move a tab,
> >>>>>> (like making it the 1st or last page(s) in a document.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The problem now is that if a Wordpro document, fully tabbed with say 10
> >>>>>> - 1000 Tabs and by transferring it to LibreOfice it just becomes an
> >>>>>> unmanageable 10 to say 10,000 pages, with no structure.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Managing large documents or many documents over a long period of time
> >>>>>> becomes achievable with Tabs (divisions)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I would have thought that this would be useful in any word processor.
> >>>>>> Please consider this
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thank you
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> John Brassington
> >>>>>> /
> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 10/06/2011 14:42, Tom Davies wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hi :)
> >>>>>>> This guide might help?
> >>>>>>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think i would post as a normal bug but put "" at the start of the
> >>>>>>> subject-line (unless the guide has better advice!)
> >>>>>>> Regards from
> >>>>>>> Tom :)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>>> From: John B<[hidden email]>
> >>>>>>> To: [hidden email]
> >>>>>>> Sent: Fri, 10 June, 2011 12:20:01
> >>>>>>> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Feature request - area?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Is there an area where Feature Requests are posted?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> John B
> >>>>>>>
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Tom Tom
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Re: Feature request - Lotus Wordpro tabs

In reply to this post by John B-2
Hi :)

It is great to get an answer.  It's only a first response so don't assume that
is "written in stone".  There are a lot of devs and a lot of work to be done so
things are changing all the time in a good way :)

Good first responses are usually give a quick work-around or indicate the level
of complexity, or how long it might take, or to gather more information.  


Michael's initial response gives 2 work-arounds
1.  using links to get the functionality fast.  It's not the long-term answer.
2.  Another option  for corporates might be to get one of their programmers onto
it, depending on urgency.  You are not a corporate and not a programmer yourself
so ignore this one.  


Regards from
Tom :)





________________________________
From: John B <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Mon, 20 June, 2011 18:50:07
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Feature request - Lotus Wordpro tabs

Dear Roland, Tom & Alex

Wow! - I  actually just received a reply (Below) from the bug site:-  
there was me thinking all that was required was hidden extra code at the
top of every page  "Am I a tabbed page or not?" if so "what is my name",
"do I belong to a group", "My tab is green" - simples

I am not a programmer!

But, I am more than delighted to get a response from such a source, even
though, not the hopeful one I would have wished for.

Its a bit like:-  If you need BOLD, just put it through the printer twice

I guess Roland, from you comments you must have received a similar
response to your bug reports?

So - Any Volunteers?

Regards


John B

>>>>

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=38401

--- Comment #1 from Michael Meeks<[hidden email]>  2011-06-20 07:36:10
PDT ---
IMHO implementing the tab feature would take quite some work here, instead it
might be good to insert a set of links in the document at the top to allow
quick jumping to the various sections;

But of course, this is all work. Lets see if some volunteer jumps in to do it -
otherwise if you pay someone to do the work, you can have it done as you like I
guess.

>>>>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Le 20/06/11 01:40, Roland Hughes a écrit :

Hi Roland,


> >  It won't be anywhere near close.  Get a copy of SmartSuit 98 or later
> >  and see what a word processor was supposed to be.
> >  
Shame that such good functionality was left by the wayside by IBM...coz
it was damned handy !!

Alex

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 17/06/2011 19:37, Roland Hughes wrote:

> Dear John,
>
> It will not work as a bolt on.  I really really REALLY thought IBM was
> finally going to sort this out, since they have the ENTIRE WordPro file
> specification.  The OpenDocument file format has to have many things
> added to it in order to support tabbed document divisions.  Mainly, it
> has to have XML to identify those divisions as completely separate "sub
> documents" which only allow a small amount of things to carry over from
> the parent/enclosing document.  Each "subdocument" has its own flags to
> support current page number, print/hide, previous/next subdocs, etc.
>
> Eliminating the existing tabs and replacing them with the Window menu
> item IS only a programming change.  It doesn't require any change to the
> file specification.
>
> Between the above programming change and the tabbed document
> specification enhancement, the OpenDocument format MUST add complete
> support for embedding ALL fonts used in the document within the document
> file.  WordPerfect had this feature for decades, and that is one of the
> major reasons WordPerfect took so long to disappear from the market
> place, even though it kept charging $400+ for its product.  That one
> little feature, combined with turning off the system wide setting for
> auto-format-for-default-printer, made a WordPerfect document completely
> portable.
>
> First we have to remove the ugly/nasty/useless tab interface.
> Then we have to make documents 100% portable.
> Then we can add tabbed document divisions just like WordPro.
>
>
> On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 19:28 +0100, John B wrote:
>
>> Dear Roland
>>
>> My mistake,  I thought that /[the brain dead//Microsoft//approach of
>> having each document as a tab]/ refers to Lotus Symphony which loads
>> each document in as a separate (big fat pointless) tab - as that is the
>> only word software program I know, that uses those tabs (hence, what do
>> I know!).
>>
>> Whilst I might think Tabs / divisions are a must have, maybe,  this
>> should be a bolt on in LibreOffice (for Smartsuite users) and not a
>> bloat on.
>>
>> My eldest son, now uses Smartsuite (an MS convert)  to swing proposals
>> around and he is also writing his 1st book. [chapter 1] [chapter 2]....
>>
>> Actually, one of the things I would miss would be not to have the
>> ability to change the page settings in each division, how do people cope?
>>
>> Calling all bolt on programmers!
>>
>> regards
>>
>> John
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>-
>>
>>
>>
>> On 17/06/2011 16:43, Roland Hughes wrote:
>>> Dear John,
>>>
>>> uh-oh...that sounds like an ominous opening!<Grin>
>>>
>>> Actually, the "they" I refer to is every other word processor on the
>>> face of the planet.
>>>
>>> I never abused/relied on the tab system as a document control
>>> architecture.  I used it to segregate out the portions of a writing
>>> project.  Each chapter had its own tab, various tabs had notes and
>>> clippings from other sources, etc.  You could re-arrange the tabs and
>>> put together a perfect book by tagging which tabs printed and which
>>> didn't.  It was a mind blowing architecture.
>>>
>>> I don't have problems finding client documents which are 20 years old.
>>> I create a directory for each client.  If I don't do any billable work
>>> for that client in 6 years, I simply delete the directory during the
>>> next OS/machine upgrade.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 16:17 +0100, John B wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Roland
>>>>
>>>> It reminds me of that Guinness Ad on "Cold Guinness" where the barman
>>>> says "your the 15th person today I've told that there is no call for
>>>> Cold Guinness".
>>>>
>>>> I remember the 1st time I saw Lotus Smart Suite, this chap had just 2
>>>> files - Private and Business, he opened up the private one and inside
>>>> were group tabs saying [+Gas], [+Electricity] etc - i thought  "of
>>>> course", it was like a Eureka moment.
>>>>
>>>> Ask any other software user to find a current client document from 6
>>>> months ago let alone 10, 20 years ago!; And of course if you have a
>>>> client called "Fred Bloggs" you don't have to think up new file names
>>>> each time you send a new letter such a
>>>> "fred_blogs_fax_17_06_11_reply_London_office".
>>>>
>>>> I am assuming the "they" you refer to, is IBM
>>>>
>>>> thanks
>>>>
>>>> John B
>>>>
>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>-
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 17/06/2011 15:20, Roland Hughes wrote:
>>>>> If you visit the bug report site, you will see I have filed several bugs
>>>>> on this issue.  They cannot implement WordPro tabs until they implement
>>>>> WordPro windows for documents.  Right now they have taken  approach of having
>>>>>each document as a tab.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 14:56 +0100, John B wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks - I have posted the request  below  today - I will let you know
>>>>>> if I get a response.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I note that on the new IBM Lotus Symphony Web site - this has to be the
>>>>>> most angered and fought for request (1000's), but IBM have now disowned
>>>>>> its own software in favour of making the new cut down 3 progs suit "not
>>>>>> compatible", OOo used to!, but LibreOffice have taken up the challenge
>>>>>> in as much as LO can read the files - although the original formatting
>>>>>> is a bit hit and miss.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [wish-list]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /There must be 10's of thousands of Lotus Smart Suite users who use
>>>>>> Lotus Wordpro who cannot move (locked in) to any other software because
>>>>>> of a brilliant internal tab filing structure within wordpro. This is
>>>>>> where you can put standard tabs inside Group tabs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because Libreoffice thankfully support Lotus Smart Suite documents (and
>>>>>> IBM no longer do), you would be the natural inheritor for all these folk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the moment I am not aware of any other software that even have tab
>>>>>> documents within a Word processor so you would be unique.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One tab can be for any amount of pages (also called a division).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The beauty of tab documents is that in one file you can have all the
>>>>>> documents for say one client, one book etc. laid out in say years +2011,
>>>>>> +2010 ..... +1995 or chapters etc. and inside (by clicking the +) the
>>>>>> group tab opens up and you can have inside other tabs for all that years
>>>>>> correspondence or headings or whatever etc).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now by having them all in one file, then a document produced in say 2000
>>>>>> is not archived or deleted as every time a new document is added the
>>>>>> whole file is updated to the current date, so backing up by current date
>>>>>> massively improves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have files on current clients that go back to 1991, the "+" means that
>>>>>> it is a "group tab" and that there are other tabs inside (and maybe more
>>>>>> inside them) etc., Hence its an effective filing structure to handle
>>>>>> multi documents.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have group tabs that go like this "+1990's">    "+1991">    
"Contracts">

>>>>>> (then a single tab "12/03/91"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hence, you can also go straight to a division, click on it and Print it
>>>>>> as a separate item. You can copy&    paste, insert, you can move a tab,
>>>>>> (like making it the 1st or last page(s) in a document.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem now is that if a Wordpro document, fully tabbed with say 10
>>>>>> - 1000 Tabs and by transferring it to LibreOfice it just becomes an
>>>>>> unmanageable 10 to say 10,000 pages, with no structure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Managing large documents or many documents over a long period of time
>>>>>> becomes achievable with Tabs (divisions)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would have thought that this would be useful in any word processor.
>>>>>> Please consider this
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Brassington
>>>>>> /
>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>-
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/06/2011 14:42, Tom Davies wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi :)
>>>>>>> This guide might help?
>>>>>>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think i would post as a normal bug but put "" at the start of the
>>>>>>> subject-line (unless the guide has better advice!)
>>>>>>> Regards from
>>>>>>> Tom :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>> From: John B<[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>>>> Sent: Fri, 10 June, 2011 12:20:01
>>>>>>> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Feature request - area?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there an area where Feature Requests are posted?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John B
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
>>>>>>> In case of problems unsubscribing, write to
>>>>[hidden email]
>>>>>>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
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>>>>>>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
>>>>>deleted
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>> Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3691 - Release Date: 06/09/11
>>>>>>>19:34:00
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
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>>>[hidden email]
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>>>>deleted
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3702 - Release Date: 06/13/11
>>>>>19:34:00
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3702 - Release Date: 06/13/11
>>>19:34:00
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.901 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3702 - Release Date: 06/13/11
>19:34:00
>


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