Save as formats explored

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Bryan Quigley-2 Bryan Quigley-2
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Save as formats explored

Hi all,

I've been looking at the Save As formats again and have another few
changes I'd like to propose.  Like last time, these changes would be
UI only and not impact importing these file formats.

1.  Remove all of the "OpenOffice.org 1.0" file formats.   People may
think they should use this to communicate with OpenOffice users.
More importantly I don't see any use case for this file format
anymore.  Is anyone still exporting to it / or know anyone who is?
(Google,which overestimates shows filetype:sxw, 23,300.  filetype:odt,
2,610,000. )

2.  Change one of these names to be consistent:
ODF Text Document (odt)
OpenDocument Text (Flat XML) (fodt)

Either:  OpenDocument Text (odt) or Flat ODF Text Document (fodt)

3.  Change "Text Encoded (.txt)" to  "Text (Choose Encoding) (.txt) or
"Text - Choose Encoding (.txt)"

Any preferences/comments on the above?   I'm happy to make patches for
all once we reach consensus.

Thank you!
Bryan
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Norbert Thiebaud Norbert Thiebaud
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Re: Save as formats explored

Just my 2 cents...

On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Bryan Quigley <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 1.
In general, it would be sad to just drop completely functionality
because someone can get confused...
maybe altering the name of this (and other format in similar
situation) and their position in the list
to clearly mark them as 'obsolete/legacy/historical' etc... ?

>
> 2.  Change one of these names to be consistent:
> ODF Text Document (odt)
> OpenDocument Text (Flat XML) (fodt)
>
> Either:  OpenDocument Text (odt) or Flat ODF Text Document (fodt)

I personally prefer the later.

>
> 3.  Change "Text Encoded (.txt)" to  "Text (Choose Encoding) (.txt) or
> "Text - Choose Encoding (.txt)"

The 2nd is clearer to me, but I can see where that is debatable... in
any case, yes, 2nd and 3rd are better than the original.


Norbert
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jonathon-6 jonathon-6
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Re: Save as formats explored

In reply to this post by Bryan Quigley-2
On 11/07/2013 07:20 PM, Bryan Quigley wrote:

> 1.  Remove all of the "OpenOffice.org 1.0" file formats.
> More importantly I don't see any use case for this file format anymore.  Is anyone still exporting to it / or know anyone who is?

Legacy documents: The organization might not use the specific file
format anymore, but they do have them in their archives.

That said, if there is a _maintained_ user installable extension that
enables LibO to read/write/edit those file formats, then eliminating
them from the standard lineup should be acceptable to all.

Caveat: Once upon a time, one of the features was that support for
legacy documents was built in.  By migrating file format input/output to
extensions, third parties might not accept that legacy file formats are
still supported.

> 2.  Change one of these names to be consistent:
> Either:  OpenDocument Text (odt) or Flat ODF Text Document (fodt)

Two different document types.

jonathon
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Norbert Thiebaud Norbert Thiebaud
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Re: Save as formats explored

On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:43 AM, jonathon <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11/07/2013 07:20 PM, Bryan Quigley wrote:
>
>> 1.  Remove all of the "OpenOffice.org 1.0" file formats.
>> More importantly I don't see any use case for this file format anymore.  Is anyone still exporting to it / or know anyone who is?
>
> Legacy documents: The organization might not use the specific file
> format anymore, but they do have them in their archives.
>
> That said, if there is a _maintained_ user installable extension that
> enables LibO to read/write/edit those file formats, then eliminating
> them from the standard lineup should be acceptable to all.
>
> Caveat: Once upon a time, one of the features was that support for
> legacy documents was built in.  By migrating file format input/output to
> extensions, third parties might not accept that legacy file formats are
> still supported.
>
>> 2.  Change one of these names to be consistent:
>> Either:  OpenDocument Text (odt) or Flat ODF Text Document (fodt)
>
> Two different document types.

yes... but the issue is the inconsistent naming
OpenDocument for one and ODF for the other... when the only difference
is Flat or not-flat

Norbert
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Jean-Baptiste Faure Jean-Baptiste Faure
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Re: Save as formats explored

In reply to this post by Bryan Quigley-2
Hi,

Le 07/11/2013 20:20, Bryan Quigley a écrit :

> Hi all,
>
> I've been looking at the Save As formats again and have another few
> changes I'd like to propose.  Like last time, these changes would be
> UI only and not impact importing these file formats.
>
> 1.  Remove all of the "OpenOffice.org 1.0" file formats.   People may
> think they should use this to communicate with OpenOffice users.
> More importantly I don't see any use case for this file format
> anymore.  Is anyone still exporting to it / or know anyone who is?
> (Google,which overestimates shows filetype:sxw, 23,300.  filetype:odt,
> 2,610,000. )

I agree.
But, if we remove the ability to _write_ legacy OOo formats, we need to
continue to _read_ them.

We could do that in two steps, version 4.2 add "deprecated" to the
format name; version 4.3 remove the format name from the list.
And, of course, clear information in release notes.

Best regards
JBF

--
Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents.
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Bryan Quigley-2 Bryan Quigley-2
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Re: Save as formats explored

In reply to this post by Norbert Thiebaud
Thanks for the feedback.  The patches for all three are attached.

1.
I should reiterate that I'm just removing Write support ONLY for
"OpenOffice 1.0" formats.   You would still be able to open them and
save them as newer formats.  (This is very similar to what I did for
Word 95/6.0 which didn't seem to cause any issues).

I believe calling it OpenOffice 1.0 should have implied it's legacy.

2.  I went with Flat XML ODF Text Document.

3.  I went with Text - Choose Encoding.
One issue that I noticed is that if you make a Master Document, it
gives you the option to save as -> Text Encoded/Choose Encoding.
Should this be removed from there?

Thank you!
Bryan Quigley

Just to reiterate, because my previous copyright statement was too specific:
All of my past & future contributions to LibreOffice may be licensed
under the MPL/LGPLv3+ dual license.

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make_text_choose_encoding.patch (2K) Download Attachment
flat_xml_odf_document.patch (3K) Download Attachment
remove_OOo1.0_file_formats.patch (17K) Download Attachment
Markus Mohrhard Markus Mohrhard
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Re: Save as formats explored

Hey,


2013/11/10 Bryan Quigley <[hidden email]>
Thanks for the feedback.  The patches for all three are attached.

1.
I should reiterate that I'm just removing Write support ONLY for
"OpenOffice 1.0" formats.   You would still be able to open them and
save them as newer formats.  (This is very similar to what I did for
Word 95/6.0 which didn't seem to cause any issues).

I believe calling it OpenOffice 1.0 should have implied it's legacy.

I'm not really happy with that. We disabled the old MSO formats because they were not well supported. This is different for the openoffice file formats and IMO we should not suddenly remove any support for them unless we have a technical reason to do so. For me it feels completely wrong to remove support for some of the old native OpenOffice files for "political" reasons while we add support for ancient Apple formats.
 

2.  I went with Flat XML ODF Text Document.

3.  I went with Text - Choose Encoding.
One issue that I noticed is that if you make a Master Document, it
gives you the option to save as -> Text Encoded/Choose Encoding.
Should this be removed from there?


I think these two are mainly ok. Maybe move the Flat XML part again into the end of the string to make clear that the format is ODF and only how it is stored in the file is different.

Regards,
Markus

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Khaled Hosny Khaled Hosny
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Re: Save as formats explored

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Tor Lillqvist-2 Tor Lillqvist-2
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Re: Save as formats explored

> Generally I think uncluttering the file format list is a good idea, what
> is the point of a very long list with formats nobody will ever use?

I agree. File formats supported for import only (like weird old ones,
whether from the Apple or PC world doesn't matter) have no relevance
on what should be shown in the Save As dialog.

--tml
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Markus Mohrhard Markus Mohrhard
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Re: Save as formats explored

In reply to this post by Khaled Hosny



2013/11/11 Khaled Hosny <[hidden email]>
On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 07:19:11AM +0100, Markus Mohrhard wrote:
> Hey,
>
>
> 2013/11/10 Bryan Quigley <[hidden email]>
>
> > Thanks for the feedback.  The patches for all three are attached.
> >
> > 1.
> > I should reiterate that I'm just removing Write support ONLY for
> > "OpenOffice 1.0" formats.   You would still be able to open them and
> > save them as newer formats.  (This is very similar to what I did for
> > Word 95/6.0 which didn't seem to cause any issues).
> >
> > I believe calling it OpenOffice 1.0 should have implied it's legacy.
> >
>
> I'm not really happy with that. We disabled the old MSO formats because
> they were not well supported. This is different for the openoffice file
> formats and IMO we should not suddenly remove any support for them unless
> we have a technical reason to do so. For me it feels completely wrong to
> remove support for some of the old native OpenOffice files for "political"
> reasons while we add support for ancient Apple formats.

"political"? I don't also see any old (or new) Apple formats in the file
format list when I save a file.

I'm not sure if they are in the list but you'll easily find the feature in the release notes.
 

Generally I think uncluttering the file format list is a good idea, what
is the point of a very long list with formats nobody will ever use? May
be we can have an option to hide/show legacy formats from the list, if
this is doable.


I know people who still use StarOffice 5.2 so there are surely people out there who still might use these formats. We removed the binfilter formats and the old MSO formats for technical reasons. I don't like the idea very much of removing features because someone thinks that nobody uses this feature anymore. For me it feels a bit like saying that we should remove the options to save in ODF 1.0 format because I think nobody is using it anymore.

If you can provide some numbers that show that nobody has used this feature in a long time I think we can agree to remove it.

Regards,
Markus


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David Tardon David Tardon
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Re: Save as formats explored

In reply to this post by Markus Mohrhard
Hi,

On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 07:19:11AM +0100, Markus Mohrhard wrote:

> Hey,
>
>
> 2013/11/10 Bryan Quigley <[hidden email]>
>
> > Thanks for the feedback.  The patches for all three are attached.
> >
> > 1.
> > I should reiterate that I'm just removing Write support ONLY for
> > "OpenOffice 1.0" formats.   You would still be able to open them and
> > save them as newer formats.  (This is very similar to what I did for
> > Word 95/6.0 which didn't seem to cause any issues).
> >
> > I believe calling it OpenOffice 1.0 should have implied it's legacy.
> >
>
> I'm not really happy with that. We disabled the old MSO formats because
> they were not well supported. This is different for the openoffice file
> formats and IMO we should not suddenly remove any support for them unless
> we have a technical reason to do so. For me it feels completely wrong to
> remove support for some of the old native OpenOffice files for "political"
> reasons while we add support for ancient Apple formats.

We added support for _import_ of ancient Apple formats. So you are
really comparing apples and oranges here.

D.
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David Tardon David Tardon
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Re: Save as formats explored

In reply to this post by Tor Lillqvist-2
Hi,

On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 10:18:07AM +0200, Tor Lillqvist wrote:
> > Generally I think uncluttering the file format list is a good idea, what
> > is the point of a very long list with formats nobody will ever use?
>
> I agree. File formats supported for import only (like weird old ones,
> whether from the Apple or PC world doesn't matter) have no relevance
> on what should be shown in the Save As dialog.

And they do not. Only formats that have both IMPORT and EXPORT flags in
the configuration are shown in Save (or Save As).

D.
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Tor Lillqvist-2 Tor Lillqvist-2
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Re: Save as formats explored

> Only formats that have both IMPORT and EXPORT flags in
> the configuration are shown in Save (or Save As).

That's what I meant, but I didn't say it clearly enough

--tml
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Bryan Quigley-2 Bryan Quigley-2
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Re: Save as formats explored

In reply to this post by Markus Mohrhard
> I know people who still use StarOffice 5.2 so there are surely people out
> there who still might use these formats.
I am happy to look at actual use cases for these formats.  Why do they
still use StarOffice 5.2?  (Is this more common than I think?,  Are
they using it on a OS platform that is still supported?) What format
do you send them documents in?  What's keeping them from upgrading to
LibreOffice?

> If you can provide some numbers that show that nobody has used this feature in a long time I think we can agree to remove it.
All the data I can really provide is from Google filetype searches:
Here is ODT: https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=filetype%3Asxw#hl=en&q=-facebook+filetype:odt
Note that there don't appear to be many false positives.

Here is SXW:
https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=filetype%3Asxw#hl=en&q=-facebook+filetype:sxw

Note the abundance of false positives.   If you switch it to past year
on either, for SXW you get two pages of results (all false
positives?).

Like the Word 95/6.0 file formats, I would expect more people use this
accidentally then still use it.  And yes, the results aren't loss of
data; just loss of time and possibly sending someone a document they
can't open.   (Remember Office 2007/2010 can open ODF now)

This is the same reason I want the Flat XML versions to still sound
technical, so that average users don't accidentally pick it.  Users
will ignore options they don't understand.

When I don't see a need for saving to the format anymore and I think
there is a high chance that users will accidentally pick the format
that's when I propose removing it.   As for removing clutter, that's
also important.  We don't have the 80/20 rule in effect for file
formats and I'm not proposing it.  I would guess we closer to a
99.999/000.001 ratio before we start removing a file format.  There is
a real cost in users looking at options that will never be useful to
them.

Thanks,
Bryan

*Facebook appears to be spamming Google results...
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Laurent BP Laurent BP
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Re: Save as formats explored

In reply to this post by Bryan Quigley-2
Hello,

Bryan Quigley-2 wrote
1.  Remove all of the "OpenOffice.org 1.0" file formats.
It has been implemented by commit aeeaccf59abbc485d7786486f1accc1cb4d4dbf7
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=aeeaccf59abbc485d7786486f1accc1cb4d4dbf7

However, one drawback is that in Writer, autotext "Formula Numbering" is broken since LibO 4.2.4, see fdo#78159
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78159

A solution would be to rewrite autotext FN in all localization to use more recent ODF format. But it takes time, and I proposed a quick solution for LibO 4.2, is to revert EXPORT for Math ODF 1.0 only, as in commit 93139
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/9319/

What do you think?
LibreOffice 5.3.5
Kohei Yoshida-7 Kohei Yoshida-7
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Re: Save as formats explored

On Tue, 2014-05-13 at 12:40 -0700, Laurent BP wrote:

> What do you think?

I think that's a reasonable thing to do.  Pushed to the 4.2 branch.

Thanks!

Kohei

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Re: Save as formats explored

In reply to this post by Laurent BP
Thanks Kohei, for your fast push :)
LibreOffice 5.3.5