Start Center

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mirek2 mirek2
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Start Center

Hi guys,
I had an IRC chat with Astron and Kendy about the Start Center on Wednesday
[1].
In a nutshell:
* It's likely we'll be using a sidebar, as making the toolbars responsive
would be a big task. There seemed to be agreement on using a sidebar in the
Start Center welcome graphic thread as well. (If you disagree, post a reply
here.)
* "No recent documents" isn't welcoming enough. We'll probably be using
something to the effect of "Start a new document, or open an existing one,
to see recently used documents here." Feel free to post suggestions here.
* We most likely won't be getting rid of the menu bar, but we'll be
streamlining it (for now).

It'd be good to finish up the design at the upcoming IRC chat (on Sunday)
[2] Unfortunately, I'm not a 100% sure if I can be there -- I'll definitely
try. If I'm not there and there are not enough attendees on Sunday, I'll be
there on Monday at 13:00 UTC. (I'll know if there were or weren't based on
whether there's a log up on the design wiki [2].)

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2013-11-06
[2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings

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Stefan Knorr Stefan Knorr
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Re: Start Center

Hi all,

> It'd be good to finish up the design at the upcoming IRC chat (on Sunday)

So, since I was asked to try my hand at a mockup design incorporating
the sidebar ... here goes this:

With recent files:
   https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/startcenter/startcen.html

No recent files:
  https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/startcenter/startcen-empty.html

(Please use a Mozilla browser like Firefox ... I didn't bother to make
the CSS any more Webkit-compatible, sorry)

The unfortunate part about the coloured sidebar of course is that we
would need some sort of custom buttons (see the mockups)... not sure how
doable these are – but using standard buttons on a dark green background
would probably not work well. I am also unsure how useful the Help and
Extensions buttons are – feel free to give feedback.

We also chose to remove the tabs at the top, because we felt that the
recent documents area would be most helpful for the last 10 to 25
documents (incidentally, just what that window can hold :) ). Thus there
should be no need to have all those different tabs which also removes
some UI clutter.

And before anyone says that this mockup is not branded enough, secondary
brand elements are included (colours, motif in the sidebar). The logo is
missing, but that is deliberate, to avoid clobbering people with
LibreOffice logo #2 in just a few seconds (splash screen being the first
one).

Regards,

Stefan.


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Jean-Francois Nifenecker Jean-Francois Nifenecker
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Re: Start Center

Le 10/11/2013 21:54, Stefan Knorr a écrit :

> Hi all,
>
> So, since I was asked to try my hand at a mockup design incorporating
> the sidebar ... here goes this:
>
> With recent files:
>    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/startcenter/startcen.html
>
> No recent files:
>   https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/startcenter/startcen-empty.html
>

Nice!

A couple questions/suggestions though:

-- could the recent documents be sorted by module? eg. all Writer docs
together, all Calc spreadsheet together, and so on.

-- Here's something I very often hear or guess from the users to whom I
show the start centre: what is a "document"? what is a "spreadsheet"?
IOW, where's Calc or Writer?

The modules are named as such in the OS start menu. The different naming
in the start centre disturbs many users.
Thus, I'd suggest:
New Writer Text
New Calc Spreadsheet
(etc)
Of course, this leads to longer strings.

This is why many of the users I'm dealing with don't use the start
centre at all: too awkward for them. They much prefer having links on
the desktop directing to the individual modules they use and this is
what we actually do before installing the PCs. Anyway, they don't use
them much as well because they are used to double-clicking file names in
the file manager ;)

>
> And before anyone says that this mockup is not branded enough, secondary
> brand elements are included (colours, motif in the sidebar). The logo is
> missing, but that is deliberate, to avoid clobbering people with
> LibreOffice logo #2 in just a few seconds (splash screen being the first
> one).

Well done.

Thanks again for attempting at a better UI.
--
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Start Center

Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote (12-11-13 21:32)

> Nice!

+1

> A couple questions/suggestions though:
>
> -- could the recent documents be sorted by module? eg. all Writer docs
> together, all Calc spreadsheet together, and so on.

I would not bother for that - apart from the work involved - a file is a
file for me.

> -- Here's something I very often hear or guess from the users to whom I
> show the start centre: what is a "document"? what is a "spreadsheet"?
> IOW, where's Calc or Writer?
>
> The modules are named as such in the OS start menu. The different naming
> in the start centre disturbs many users.

Would be useful yes. (If not now, then at least later)

> Thus, I'd suggest:
> New Writer Text
> New Calc Spreadsheet
> (etc)
> Of course, this leads to longer strings.

Maybe the repeating word New can be omitted, it 'Created' above the
separator is a bit larger?

Cheers,


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Laurent Lyaudet Laurent Lyaudet
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Re: Start Center

Hi,

On 13/11/2013 00:31, Cor Nouws wrote:
> Maybe the repeating word New can be omitted, it 'Created' above the
> separator is a bit larger?
We chose to repeat the word New for accessibility and ensuring that all
the action information is on the button.
The discussion is here:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2013-11-10
The topic about new is at 12:49

Best regards,
     Laurent Lyaudet

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Pedro Pedro
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Re: Start Center

In reply to this post by Cor Nouws
First of all, I like *very much* the new design. Congratulations!

However the existing tabs in the current 4.2 Alpha version Start Center have one advantage: in addition to having the most recent documents regardless of type in the All tab you can also get the most recent files by type (which allows the user to access easily e.g. the last used 20 spreadsheets). This is similar to the function in the extension HistoryMaster but much more user friendly.

Is there any way to merge the Start Center proposed in this topic and the existing in 4.2 Alpha with several tabs?

BTW it would be fantastic if the user could open several files at the same time... You can already select them by using Shift or Control... The only thing missing is a Open Selected button :)

Regards,
Pedro
Jan Holesovsky-4 Jan Holesovsky-4
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Re: Start Center

Hi Pedro,

Pedro píše v St 13. 11. 2013 v 15:21 -0800:

> First of all, I like *very much* the new design. Congratulations!
>
> However the existing tabs in the current 4.2 Alpha version Start Center have
> one advantage: in addition to having the most recent documents regardless of
> type in the All tab you can also get the most recent files by type (which
> allows the user to access easily e.g. the last used 20 spreadsheets). This
> is similar to the function in the extension HistoryMaster but much more user
> friendly.
>
> Is there any way to merge the Start Center proposed in this topic and the
> existing in 4.2 Alpha with several tabs?

I'm sorry - too late...  I've just implemented the new design :-)

http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter-new.png

I hope no drastic changes will be necessary, because we are just in time
for the feature freeze ;-) - this was quite a ride, I've hit some VCL
bugs/limitations on the way, so it took me a bit more time than I
wanted.

Having played with the new startcenter myself, I like it a lot, and I
very much prefer the tab-less design; please try the next nightly build
& report bugs - hopefully it works for you well too.

Rodolfo will be hopefully able to spend some time on the keyboard
navigation too; but still, that is something that we can fix during the
beta phase.

Thank you everyone who helped to make this happen - especially Mateusz &
his friend for the initial design, and to all of you who polished it to
fit LibreOffice and its design goals!

All the best,
Kendy


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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Start Center

In reply to this post by Laurent Lyaudet
Hi Laurent,

Laurent Lyaudet wrote (13-11-13 19:30)

> On 13/11/2013 00:31, Cor Nouws wrote:
>> Maybe the repeating word New can be omitted, it 'Created' above the
>> separator is a bit larger?
> We chose to repeat the word New for accessibility and ensuring that all
> the action information is on the button.

I can understand it from accessibility POV.
But for the action information, I expect there is little difference for
a user between starting Writer and starting a New Writer document?

> The discussion is here:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2013-11-10
> The topic about new is at 12:49

Thanks for the link. Maybe my remarks are just moot in the light of your
discussions. Then my apologies :)

Cor


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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: Start Center

In reply to this post by Jan Holesovsky-4
Kendy,

Mock up looks friendly, and I'm glad to see it make the feature freeze. I will of course be testing next sets of daily's.

However, while the graphical layout has improved--we have miles to go to correct keyboard navigation for "no mouse" use on this and other GTK+ based UI elements (StartCenter, Template Manager, Sidebar... etc.).

Stuart
Pedro Pedro
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Re: Start Center

In reply to this post by Jan Holesovsky-4
Hi Kendy, all

Jan Holesovsky-4 wrote
> Is there any way to merge the Start Center proposed in this topic and the
> existing in 4.2 Alpha with several tabs?

I'm sorry - too late...  I've just implemented the new design :-)

http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter-new.png
Damn...
Anyway, it looks good much better than the current one (except for the missing tabs :) )
Well done!

Jan Holesovsky-4 wrote
Having played with the new startcenter myself, I like it a lot, and I
very much prefer the tab-less design; please try the next nightly build
& report bugs - hopefully it works for you well too.
I will try the nightly build. Hopefully there won't be any bugs to report ;)

Jan Holesovsky-4 wrote
Rodolfo will be hopefully able to spend some time on the keyboard
navigation too; but still, that is something that we can fix during the
beta phase.
That is good (I'm a keyboard man, so I will be using those). I noticed you changed some of the hotkeys (it makes more sense that Open is either Alt+O or Ctrl+O) but be aware that some people will be annoyed for changing the keys that were already standard since (at least) OpenOffice.org...

Using Alt+E for Templates AND Extensions is a bad idea :) It was a GOOD idea to remove the Edit and the Window menus (they were useless when only the Start Center is open) but maybe not for the View and Options which allowed people to have a toolbar (personally I never used it) and to configure Extensions and other options from the Start Center...

Best regards,
Pedro
Maximi89 Maximi89
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Re: Start Center

Hi guys, probably a good option should be to add a way to select multiple
files with a select box, because some times some of us use 4 documents and
need to open the 4 at same time and not start to pick one by one.


2013/11/14 Pedro <[hidden email]>

> Hi Kendy, all
>
>
> Jan Holesovsky-4 wrote
> >> Is there any way to merge the Start Center proposed in this topic and
> the
> >> existing in 4.2 Alpha with several tabs?
> >
> > I'm sorry - too late...  I've just implemented the new design :-)
> >
> > http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter-new.png
>
> Damn...
> Anyway, it looks good much better than the current one (except for the
> missing tabs :) )
> Well done!
>
>
> Jan Holesovsky-4 wrote
> > Having played with the new startcenter myself, I like it a lot, and I
> > very much prefer the tab-less design; please try the next nightly build
> > & report bugs - hopefully it works for you well too.
>
> I will try the nightly build. Hopefully there won't be any bugs to report
> ;)
>
>
> Jan Holesovsky-4 wrote
> > Rodolfo will be hopefully able to spend some time on the keyboard
> > navigation too; but still, that is something that we can fix during the
> > beta phase.
>
> That is good (I'm a keyboard man, so I will be using those). I noticed you
> changed some of the hotkeys (it makes more sense that Open is either Alt+O
> or Ctrl+O) but be aware that some people will be annoyed for changing the
> keys that were already standard since (at least) OpenOffice.org...
>
> Using Alt+E for Templates AND Extensions is a bad idea :) It was a GOOD
> idea
> to remove the Edit and the Window menus (they were useless when only the
> Start Center is open) but maybe not for the View and Options which allowed
> people to have a toolbar (personally I never used it) and to configure
> Extensions and other options from the Start Center...
>
> Best regards,
> Pedro
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Start-Center-tp4082013p4083134.html
> Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Jan Holesovsky-4 Jan Holesovsky-4
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Re: Start Center

In reply to this post by Pedro
Hi Pedro,

Pedro píše v Čt 14. 11. 2013 v 07:29 -0800:

> I noticed you
> changed some of the hotkeys (it makes more sense that Open is either Alt+O
> or Ctrl+O) but be aware that some people will be annoyed for changing the
> keys that were already standard since (at least) OpenOffice.org...

That's a good point.

> Using Alt+E for Templates AND Extensions is a bad idea :)

I've changed the extensions to 'x'.

In general - if you think we should rather stick to the old
accelerators, please let me know, I'll change them back :-) - though I
think changing the Ctrl+<something> is usually a problem, the Alt
+<something> ones that navigate you through the dialog less so, but I
may be wrong.

>  It was a GOOD idea
> to remove the Edit and the Window menus (they were useless when only the
> Start Center is open) but maybe not for the View and Options which allowed
> people to have a toolbar (personally I never used it) and to configure
> Extensions and other options from the Start Center...

The Options... are still there under Tools, so that should be fine,
similarly the Extensions center; so hopefully we are good there.

All the best,
Kendy


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Rodolfo R Gomes Rodolfo R Gomes
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Re: Start Center

In reply to this post by V Stuart Foote
Hello.
I'd be glad if you could tell me how do you expect the keyboard navigation
should work.

Regards.
Em 14/11/2013 14:02, "V Stuart Foote" <[hidden email]> escreveu:

> Kendy,
>
> Mock up looks friendly, and I'm glad to see it make the feature freeze. I
> will of course be testing next sets of daily's.
>
> However, while the graphical layout has improved--we have miles to go to
> correct keyboard navigation for "no mouse" use on this and other GTK+ based
> UI elements (StartCenter, Template Manager, Sidebar... etc.).
>
> Stuart
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Start-Center-tp4082013p4083128.html
> Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> --
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> Problems?
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>

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Pedro Pedro
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Re: Start Center

In reply to this post by Jan Holesovsky-4
Hi Kendy, all

Jan Holesovsky-4 wrote
I've changed the extensions to 'x'.
Well done :)

Jan Holesovsky-4 wrote
In general - if you think we should rather stick to the old
accelerators, please let me know, I'll change them back :-) - though I
think changing the Ctrl+<something> is usually a problem, the Alt
+<something> ones that navigate you through the dialog less so, but I
may be wrong.
Given that these keys have been in use for more than a decade, I think it's safer to stick to the old combinations. If you change it, the people who always used it (2?) will complain.
If there was an obvious advantage in changing I would vote for a change.

Jan Holesovsky-4 wrote
>  It was a GOOD idea
> to remove the Edit and the Window menus (they were useless when only the
> Start Center is open) but maybe not for the View and Options which allowed
> people to have a toolbar (personally I never used it) and to configure
> Extensions and other options from the Start Center...

The Options... are still there under Tools, so that should be fine,
similarly the Extensions center; so hopefully we are good there.
I'm sorry, my confusion. Tools is still there. But what about the option to View the Toolbar? Unless the idea is to get rid of the toolbar...
If not, then maybe add an option under Tools > Customize > Toolbars tab > Check box for "Display toolbar in Start Center"?

Just throwing ideas on the table ;)

Best regards,
Pedro
Jan Holesovsky-4 Jan Holesovsky-4
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Re: Start Center

Hi Pedro,

Pedro píše v Čt 14. 11. 2013 v 09:11 -0800:

> > In general - if you think we should rather stick to the old
> > accelerators, please let me know, I'll change them back :-) - though I
> > think changing the Ctrl+
> > <something>
> >  is usually a problem, the Alt
> > +
> > <something>
> >  ones that navigate you through the dialog less so, but I
> > may be wrong.
>
> Given that these keys have been in use for more than a decade, I think it's
> safer to stick to the old combinations. If you change it, the people who
> always used it (2?) will complain.

:-)

> If there was an obvious advantage in changing I would vote for a change.

It looked ugly when Open was the first on the screen, and did not have
an underlined O, that was all :-)  I'd say - let's change only Open, and
revert back if we get complaints during the Beta phase...

> I'm sorry, my confusion. Tools is still there. But what about the option to
> View the Toolbar? Unless the idea is to get rid of the toolbar...
> If not, then maybe add an option under Tools > Customize > Toolbars tab >
> Check box for "Display toolbar in Start Center"?

Yes, that was the plan, not to allow to show the toolbars in the
startcenter.

All the best,
Kendy


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Jan Holesovsky-4 Jan Holesovsky-4
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Re: Start Center

Hi once again,

Jan Holesovsky píše v Čt 14. 11. 2013 v 19:01 +0100:

> > If there was an obvious advantage in changing I would vote for a change.
>
> It looked ugly when Open was the first on the screen, and did not have
> an underlined O, that was all :-)  I'd say - let's change only Open, and
> revert back if we get complaints during the Beta phase...

Turns out the other changes were triggered by the O ;-) - anyway,
letting it be for now, let's see if we get reports during Beta.

Mirek, Astron, all - what should the [Help] button actually do?
Currently it does what the Info used to - opens www.libreoffice.org.
Shouldn't we name it a bit differently?  'Info'?  'Web'?

Regards,
Kendy


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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: Start Center

In reply to this post by Rodolfo R Gomes
Rodolfo,

Pretty simple really, the <F6> and  <Shift>+<F6> focus combinations must be implemented, and have reasonable actions in each of the GTK+ based UI layouts.  Also, the parent-child relationship and ring of movements of each GTK+ object on the UI panels needs to adjusted such that keyboard only navigation with <TAB> and Cursor <U, D, L, R> is in a reasonable sequence.

Also that accelerators / short cuts are assigned to each actionable button of the GUI and have the expected result of gaining focus and triggering action, and that a substantive tooltip is assigned to each GTK object.

The project has a fair amount of "help" content published with specifics of accelerator / short cut key assignment-we'll need to either be compliant with that, or republish to address changes.

You might start with a review of the common shortcuts-and verify the GTK+ UI implementations implement these minimums.
https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Shortcuts_Accessibility
https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/General_Shortcut_Keys_in


Stuart



From: Rodolfo [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:56 AM
To: V Stuart Foote
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center


Hello.
I'd be glad if you could tell me how do you expect the keyboard navigation should work.

Regards.
Em 14/11/2013 14:02, "V Stuart Foote" <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> escreveu:
Kendy,

Mock up looks friendly, and I'm glad to see it make the feature freeze. I
will of course be testing next sets of daily's.

However, while the graphical layout has improved--we have miles to go to
correct keyboard navigation for "no mouse" use on this and other GTK+ based
UI elements (StartCenter, Template Manager, Sidebar... etc.).

Stuart



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Jean-Francois Nifenecker Jean-Francois Nifenecker
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Re: Start Center

In reply to this post by Jan Holesovsky-4
Le 14/11/2013 14:46, Jan Holesovsky a écrit :

> Hi Pedro,
>
> Pedro píše v St 13. 11. 2013 v 15:21 -0800:
>
>> First of all, I like *very much* the new design. Congratulations!
>>
>> However the existing tabs in the current 4.2 Alpha version Start Center have
>> one advantage: in addition to having the most recent documents regardless of
>> type in the All tab you can also get the most recent files by type (which
>> allows the user to access easily e.g. the last used 20 spreadsheets). This
>> is similar to the function in the extension HistoryMaster but much more user
>> friendly.
>>
>> Is there any way to merge the Start Center proposed in this topic and the
>> existing in 4.2 Alpha with several tabs?
>
> I'm sorry - too late...  I've just implemented the new design :-)
>
> http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter-new.png
>

This is nice! Thanks.

Now, I'll insist on the presence of the module names: New Writer Text
(btw: I think "Text" to be more accurate to "Document"), New Calc
Spreadsheet and so on. I've already said that the users I know (that's
some 400) don't understand why there's a "Calc" menu entry in the OS
start menu and no such name in the Start Centre. IOW, they have a hard
time figuring that New Spreadsheet will lead them to Calc.

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Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: Start Center

This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
In reply to this post by Rodolfo R Gomes
Rodolfo R Gomes wrote
Hello.
I'd be glad if you could tell me how do you expect the keyboard navigation
should work.

Regards.
Rodolfo,

Pretty simple really, the <F6> and  <Shift>+<F6> focus combinations must be implemented, and have reasonable actions in each of the GTK+ based UI layouts.  Also, the parent-child relationship and ring of movements of each GTK+ object on the UI panels needs to adjusted such that keyboard only navigation with <TAB> and Cursor <U, D, L, R> is in a reasonable sequence.  

Also that accelerators / short cuts are assigned to each actionable button of the GUI and have the expected result of gaining focus and triggering action, and that a substantive tooltip is assigned to each GTK object.

The project has a fair amount of “help” content published with specifics of accelerator / short cut key assignment—we’ll need to either be compliant with that, or republish to address changes.

You might start with a review of the common shortcuts—and verify the GTK+ UI implementations implement these minimums.
https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Shortcuts_Accessibility
https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/General_Shortcut_Keys_in


Stuart
V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: Start Center

In reply to this post by Jan Holesovsky-4
So the first TB builds of the revised Startcenter design have posted.

Looks good!   Kind of miss being able to categorize the thumbnails--they all look the same and neither the truncated filenames nor the tooltips show file extension--so no visual or audible queue as to what the file is--may need some refinement.

But the keyboard navigation is really a detractor.

Opened an issue fdo#71628 -- new GTK+ UI start center keyboard navigation not productive.  Main problem continues to be the mixed use of <TAB> and Cursor and lack of <F6> movement between functional blocks/menus.