Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

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peter.jentsch peter.jentsch
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Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

Hi,

I'm currently investigating a bug with the Excel 2003 import filter
(https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35543). Looking closer at
the filter and how much work needed to be done to improve it, and
considering the fact that Office 2003 ML has been superseeded by OOXML,
fixing that bug feels like flogging a dead horse.

I'd rather suggest to drop Office 2003 support in LibO altogether and
instead focus on improving OOXML and HTML import/export.

For anybody with a large library of Office 2003 XML documents not wanting
to upgrade to MS Office 2007/2010, Microsoft offers a compatibility pack
that allows to open and save OOXML from MS Office 2003.

What do you think?

Peter


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Jaime R. Garza Jaime R. Garza
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Re: Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

Hi Peter,

I don't really understand the logic behind your suggestion.

You want LO to drop support for the defacto-standard file format???

I don't really see any good reason for doing such a completely strategically
wrong decision.

Cheers!

Jaime

On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 16:36, Peter Jentsch <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm currently investigating a bug with the Excel 2003 import filter
> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35543). Looking closer at
> the filter and how much work needed to be done to improve it, and
> considering the fact that Office 2003 ML has been superseeded by OOXML,
> fixing that bug feels like flogging a dead horse.
>
> I'd rather suggest to drop Office 2003 support in LibO altogether and
> instead focus on improving OOXML and HTML import/export.
>
> For anybody with a large library of Office 2003 XML documents not wanting
> to upgrade to MS Office 2007/2010, Microsoft offers a compatibility pack
> that allows to open and save OOXML from MS Office 2003.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Peter
>
>
> --
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Carl Symons Carl Symons
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Re: Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 9:23 AM, Jaime R. Garza <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Peter,
>
> I don't really understand the logic behind your suggestion.
>
> You want LO to drop support for the defacto-standard file format???
>
> I don't really see any good reason for doing such a completely strategically
> wrong decision.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Jaime
>

Although MS stopped free support for MS Office 2003 some time ago, its
use is still widespread. It would be a mistake for LibO to support the
ill-defined, shifting OOXML and deprecate MS 2003 support.

Carl


> On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 16:36, Peter Jentsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm currently investigating a bug with the Excel 2003 import filter
>> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35543). Looking closer at
>> the filter and how much work needed to be done to improve it, and
>> considering the fact that Office 2003 ML has been superseeded by OOXML,
>> fixing that bug feels like flogging a dead horse.
>>
>> I'd rather suggest to drop Office 2003 support in LibO altogether and
>> instead focus on improving OOXML and HTML import/export.
>>
>> For anybody with a large library of Office 2003 XML documents not wanting
>> to upgrade to MS Office 2007/2010, Microsoft offers a compatibility pack
>> that allows to open and save OOXML from MS Office 2003.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> --
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>
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Jonathan Aquilina Jonathan Aquilina
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Re: Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

On 3/26/11 5:30 PM, Carl Symons wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 9:23 AM, Jaime R. Garza<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Hi Peter,
>>
>> I don't really understand the logic behind your suggestion.
>>
>> You want LO to drop support for the defacto-standard file format???
>>
>> I don't really see any good reason for doing such a completely strategically
>> wrong decision.
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>> Jaime
>>
> Although MS stopped free support for MS Office 2003 some time ago, its
> use is still widespread. It would be a mistake for LibO to support the
> ill-defined, shifting OOXML and deprecate MS 2003 support.
>
> Carl
>
>
Carl is it safe to say we could easily depreciate anything prior to
2003, but keep support for 2003 2007 and 2010?


>> On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 16:36, Peter Jentsch<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm currently investigating a bug with the Excel 2003 import filter
>>> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35543). Looking closer at
>>> the filter and how much work needed to be done to improve it, and
>>> considering the fact that Office 2003 ML has been superseeded by OOXML,
>>> fixing that bug feels like flogging a dead horse.
>>>
>>> I'd rather suggest to drop Office 2003 support in LibO altogether and
>>> instead focus on improving OOXML and HTML import/export.
>>>
>>> For anybody with a large library of Office 2003 XML documents not wanting
>>> to upgrade to MS Office 2007/2010, Microsoft offers a compatibility pack
>>> that allows to open and save OOXML from MS Office 2003.
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>> *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
>>>
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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

In reply to this post by Carl Symons
On 3/26/11 5:30 PM, Carl Symons wrote:

> Although MS stopped free support for MS Office 2003 some time ago, its
> use is still widespread. It would be a mistake for LibO to support the
> ill-defined, shifting OOXML and deprecate MS 2003 support.

I might be wrong, but Peter was referring to MS Office 2003 XML format,
which is different from DOC, XLS and PPT, and was never really used by
anyone. Although MS says that the format was propedeutic to OOXML, it is
completely different.

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Carl Symons Carl Symons
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Re: Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

In reply to this post by Jonathan Aquilina
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 9:55 AM, Jonathan Aquilina
<[hidden email]> wrote:

...

>>>
>> Although MS stopped free support for MS Office 2003 some time ago, its
>> use is still widespread. It would be a mistake for LibO to support the
>> ill-defined, shifting OOXML and deprecate MS 2003 support.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
> Carl is it safe to say we could easily depreciate anything prior to 2003,
> but keep support for 2003 2007 and 2010?
>

I'm not competent to address this. I encounter quite a number of
people and businesses that use MS 2003, but older than that...I don't
know.

Adding an additional point here...currently LibO more closely
resembles MS 2003 than 2007 with its ribbon menu doodad. Just last
Thursday, I met with the head of a department who had just started
using 2007. She didn't like it and was considering the possibility of
taking the entire department back to a 2003 standard. LibO wasn't the
thrust of the meeting, but she was quite interested in using it
instead of MS anything.

Carl


>
>>> On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 16:36, Peter Jentsch<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I'm currently investigating a bug with the Excel 2003 import filter
>>>> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35543). Looking closer at
>>>> the filter and how much work needed to be done to improve it, and
>>>> considering the fact that Office 2003 ML has been superseeded by OOXML,
>>>> fixing that bug feels like flogging a dead horse.
>>>>
>>>> I'd rather suggest to drop Office 2003 support in LibO altogether and
>>>> instead focus on improving OOXML and HTML import/export.
>>>>
>>>> For anybody with a large library of Office 2003 XML documents not
>>>> wanting
>>>> to upgrade to MS Office 2007/2010, Microsoft offers a compatibility pack
>>>> that allows to open and save OOXML from MS Office 2003.
>>>>
>>>> What do you think?
>>>>
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>>
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>>>
>
>
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upscope upscope
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Re: Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

In reply to this post by Carl Symons
<snip>
On Saturday, March 26, 2011 09:30:31 AM Carl Symons wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 9:23 AM, Jaime R. Garza <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> > Hi Peter,
> >
> > I don't really understand the logic behind your suggestion.
> >
> > You want LO to drop support for the defacto-standard file format???
> >
> > I don't really see any good reason for doing such a completely
> > strategically wrong decision.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Jaime
>
> Although MS stopped free support for MS Office 2003 some time ago,
> its use is still widespread. It would be a mistake for LibO to
> support the ill-defined, shifting OOXML and deprecate MS 2003
> support.
>
> Carl
</snip>
I constantly recieve office 2003 .xls files from users. If you mean the
OOXML files I've never recieved any of them from the users I get
spreadsheets from. I doubt they would know what the are. I even get a
spreadsheet from a user who uses Win 98.

Also the present version of LibreOffice I use has aproblem with an
occassional spreadsheet from OpenOffice. I am about ready to report it
as a bug.

This is just a comment.  


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Ercole Carpanetto Ercole Carpanetto
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Re: Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

In reply to this post by peter.jentsch
On 26 March 2011 16:36, Peter Jentsch <[hidden email]> wrote:

IMHO I don't think drop office 2003 format is a good idea: a lot of
people around still use it. And while you can install the
compatibility pack, as you say on your PC, is not possible to force
others to install a program, so it can become hardest to exchange
files with others.
Ercole

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Jonathan Hudson Jonathan Hudson
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Re: Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

In reply to this post by peter.jentsch
On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 15:36:39 +0000 (UTC), Peter Jentsch wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I'm currently investigating a bug with the Excel 2003 import filter
>(https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35543). Looking closer at
>the filter and how much work needed to be done to improve it, and
>considering the fact that Office 2003 ML has been superseeded by OOXML,
>fixing that bug feels like flogging a dead horse.
>
>I'd rather suggest to drop Office 2003 support in LibO altogether and
>instead focus on improving OOXML and HTML import/export.
>
>For anybody with a large library of Office 2003 XML documents not wanting
>to upgrade to MS Office 2007/2010, Microsoft offers a compatibility pack
>that allows to open and save OOXML from MS Office 2003.
>
>What do you think?
>
>Peter

Sounds like a very reasonable proposal due to the fact that 2003 ML is
rarely used.

Your biggest problem will be the number of users who don't understand
what ML is, and object on spurious grounds. Perhaps you should have
just asked on the dev list.

-jh


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yahoo-pier_andreit yahoo-pier_andreit
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Re: Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

Il 26/03/2011 20:09, Jonathan Hudson ha scritto:

> On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 15:36:39 +0000 (UTC), Peter Jentsch wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm currently investigating a bug with the Excel 2003 import filter
>> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35543). Looking closer at
>> the filter and how much work needed to be done to improve it, and
>> considering the fact that Office 2003 ML has been superseeded by OOXML,
>> fixing that bug feels like flogging a dead horse.
>>
>> I'd rather suggest to drop Office 2003 support in LibO altogether and
>> instead focus on improving OOXML and HTML import/export.
>>
>> For anybody with a large library of Office 2003 XML documents not wanting
>> to upgrade to MS Office 2007/2010, Microsoft offers a compatibility pack
>> that allows to open and save OOXML from MS Office 2003.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Peter
>
> Sounds like a very reasonable proposal due to the fact that 2003 ML is
> rarely used.
>
> Your biggest problem will be the number of users who don't understand
> what ML is, and object on spurious grounds. Perhaps you should have
> just asked on the dev list.
>
> -jh
>
>
rarely??? I think is the most used in the world!!!

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Jonathan Hudson Jonathan Hudson
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Re: Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 20:35:30 +0100, yahoo-pier_andreit wrote:

>Il 26/03/2011 20:09, Jonathan Hudson ha scritto:
>> On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 15:36:39 +0000 (UTC), Peter Jentsch wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm currently investigating a bug with the Excel 2003 import filter
>>> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35543). Looking closer at
>>> the filter and how much work needed to be done to improve it, and
>>> considering the fact that Office 2003 ML has been superseeded by OOXML,
>>> fixing that bug feels like flogging a dead horse.
>>>
>>> I'd rather suggest to drop Office 2003 support in LibO altogether and
>>> instead focus on improving OOXML and HTML import/export.
>>>
>>> For anybody with a large library of Office 2003 XML documents not wanting
>>> to upgrade to MS Office 2007/2010, Microsoft offers a compatibility pack
>>> that allows to open and save OOXML from MS Office 2003.
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> Peter
>>
>> Sounds like a very reasonable proposal due to the fact that 2003 ML is
>> rarely used.
>>
>> Your biggest problem will be the number of users who don't understand
>> what ML is, and object on spurious grounds. Perhaps you should have
>> just asked on the dev list.
>>
>> -jh
>>
>>
>rarely??? I think is the most used in the world!!!

Please show me some URIs then (NOT .xls, but 2003 ML)

-jh

>
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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

In reply to this post by yahoo-pier_andreit
On 3/26/11 8:35 PM, yahoo-pier_andreit wrote:

>> Sounds like a very reasonable proposal due to the fact that 2003 ML is
>> rarely used.

> rarely??? I think is the most used in the world!!!

MS Office 2003 XML format has nothing to do with DOC, XLS and PPT. It is
a different format, based on XML, which - according to Microsoft - is
the ancestor of OOXML, almost completely forgotten (the comments show
that most people ignore it).

DOC, XLS and PPT, unfortunately, are still the most used format in the
world. MS Office ML is a different story, and almost anyone has ever
used it. It was even worse than OOXML.

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Re: Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

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peter.jentsch peter.jentsch
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Re: Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

In reply to this post by peter.jentsch
On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 17:23:01 +0100, Jaime R. Garza wrote:

Hi,

I think I left out some important detail to at least make the question not
look completely braindead:

LibO AFAIK currently supports at least 4 different MS file interchange
formats:

- RTF
- MS Office 97/2000/XP Binary
- MS Office 2003 XML
- OO XML

Each format is supported using different technological approaches, and
although my knowledge of all of them is very superficial, I suppose it's
quite an effort to maintain all of them.

Looking at the implementation of the Excel 2003 XML import filter showed
that it is very unlikely somebody ever has been able to import
spreadsheets larger than a couple of hundred rows using that filter.
(looking at the Word 2003 ML import and export filters while porting them
to use a different XSLT processor showed that they too are broken in some
respect in both OOo and LibO).

Which made me wonder if that particular format is in very wide use. I
googled for it, but found no information on how widespread Office 2003 XML
is in use currently, but figured that Microsoft offers compatibility packs
for Office 2003 to support OOXML, which superceded Office 2003 XML.

The technological basis of the OOXML import and export filters looks far
more promising than that of the Office 2003 XMLs filter - - - thus my
question.

To make the question look even less threatening: I'm absolutely not in the
position to make a decision about further supporting Office 2003 XML, I'm
just very curious to find out how dearly it is needed (actually I'm asking
this to get an indication on how to fix the problem with the Excel 2003
import filter: improve the Office 2003 filters to not hang indefinitely
when importing larger files, or just make it possible to abort a running
import).

So... cheers, and thanks for the feedback :-)

Peter



On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 17:23:01 +0100, Jaime R. Garza wrote:

> Hi Peter,
>
> I don't really understand the logic behind your suggestion.
>
> You want LO to drop support for the defacto-standard file format???
>
> I don't really see any good reason for doing such a completely
> strategically wrong decision.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Jaime
>
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 16:36, Peter Jentsch <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm currently investigating a bug with the Excel 2003 import filter
>> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35543). Looking closer at
>> the filter and how much work needed to be done to improve it, and
>> considering the fact that Office 2003 ML has been superseeded by OOXML,
>> fixing that bug feels like flogging a dead horse.
>>
>> I'd rather suggest to drop Office 2003 support in LibO altogether and
>> instead focus on improving OOXML and HTML import/export.
>>
>> For anybody with a large library of Office 2003 XML documents not
>> wanting to upgrade to MS Office 2007/2010, Microsoft offers a
>> compatibility pack that allows to open and save OOXML from MS Office
>> 2003.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> --
>> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
>> Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ ***
>> All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
>>
>>




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Jaime R. Garza Jaime R. Garza
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Re: Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

In my opinion Must, Should, Could, Completely Irrelevant:

- *Must*: RTF
- *Must*: MS Office 97/2000/XP Binary
- *Completely Irrelevant*: MS Office 2003 XML
- *Should*: OOXML ECMA-376 / ISO/IEC 29500 Transitional
- *Must*: OOXML  ISO/IEC 29500 Strict

Cheers!

Jaime

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 09:13, Peter Jentsch <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 17:23:01 +0100, Jaime R. Garza wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I think I left out some important detail to at least make the question not
> look completely braindead:
>
> LibO AFAIK currently supports at least 4 different MS file interchange
> formats:
>
> - RTF
> - MS Office 97/2000/XP Binary
> - MS Office 2003 XML
> - OO XML
>
> Each format is supported using different technological approaches, and
> although my knowledge of all of them is very superficial, I suppose it's
> quite an effort to maintain all of them.
>
> Looking at the implementation of the Excel 2003 XML import filter showed
> that it is very unlikely somebody ever has been able to import
> spreadsheets larger than a couple of hundred rows using that filter.
> (looking at the Word 2003 ML import and export filters while porting them
> to use a different XSLT processor showed that they too are broken in some
> respect in both OOo and LibO).
>
> Which made me wonder if that particular format is in very wide use. I
> googled for it, but found no information on how widespread Office 2003 XML
> is in use currently, but figured that Microsoft offers compatibility packs
> for Office 2003 to support OOXML, which superceded Office 2003 XML.
>
> The technological basis of the OOXML import and export filters looks far
> more promising than that of the Office 2003 XMLs filter - - - thus my
> question.
>
> To make the question look even less threatening: I'm absolutely not in the
> position to make a decision about further supporting Office 2003 XML, I'm
> just very curious to find out how dearly it is needed (actually I'm asking
> this to get an indication on how to fix the problem with the Excel 2003
> import filter: improve the Office 2003 filters to not hang indefinitely
> when importing larger files, or just make it possible to abort a running
> import).
>
> So... cheers, and thanks for the feedback :-)
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 17:23:01 +0100, Jaime R. Garza wrote:
>
> > Hi Peter,
> >
> > I don't really understand the logic behind your suggestion.
> >
> > You want LO to drop support for the defacto-standard file format???
> >
> > I don't really see any good reason for doing such a completely
> > strategically wrong decision.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Jaime
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 16:36, Peter Jentsch <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I'm currently investigating a bug with the Excel 2003 import filter
> >> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35543). Looking closer at
> >> the filter and how much work needed to be done to improve it, and
> >> considering the fact that Office 2003 ML has been superseeded by OOXML,
> >> fixing that bug feels like flogging a dead horse.
> >>
> >> I'd rather suggest to drop Office 2003 support in LibO altogether and
> >> instead focus on improving OOXML and HTML import/export.
> >>
> >> For anybody with a large library of Office 2003 XML documents not
> >> wanting to upgrade to MS Office 2007/2010, Microsoft offers a
> >> compatibility pack that allows to open and save OOXML from MS Office
> >> 2003.
> >>
> >> What do you think?
> >>
> >> Peter
> >>
> >>
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aqualung aqualung
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Re: Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

Jaime R. Garza wrote
In my opinion Must, Should, Could, Completely Irrelevant:

- *Must*: RTF
- *Must*: MS Office 97/2000/XP Binary
- *Completely Irrelevant*: MS Office 2003 XML
- *Should*: OOXML ECMA-376 / ISO/IEC 29500 Transitional
- *Must*: OOXML  ISO/IEC 29500 Strict

Cheers!

Jaime
Which one of the above is the .docx file extension produced by MS Office 2007 and 2010? That one is the most important of all IMHO.
mgagnonlv mgagnonlv
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Re: Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML

Le 2011-03-28 15:29, aqualung a écrit :

> Jaime R. Garza wrote:
>> In my opinion Must, Should, Could, Completely Irrelevant:
>>
>> - *Must*: RTF
>> - *Must*: MS Office 97/2000/XP Binary
>> - *Completely Irrelevant*: MS Office 2003 XML
>> - *Should*: OOXML ECMA-376 / ISO/IEC 29500 Transitional
>> - *Must*: OOXML  ISO/IEC 29500 Strict
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>> Jaime
>>
>>
> Which one of the above is the .docx file extension produced by MS Office
> 2007 and 2010? That one is the most important of all IMHO.

I also agree that Ms Office 2010 format is coming more and more common
and should be a *MUST*.
On the other hand, RTF seems so bastard that basic support is probably ok.


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steveedmonds steveedmonds
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Re: Support for Office 2003 file formats (WordML, SpreadsheetML



On 2011-03-29 14:25, Michel Gagnon wrote:

> Le 2011-03-28 15:29, aqualung a écrit :
>> Jaime R. Garza wrote:
>>> In my opinion Must, Should, Could, Completely Irrelevant:
>>>
>>> - *Must*: RTF
>>> - *Must*: MS Office 97/2000/XP Binary
>>> - *Completely Irrelevant*: MS Office 2003 XML
>>> - *Should*: OOXML ECMA-376 / ISO/IEC 29500 Transitional
>>> - *Must*: OOXML  ISO/IEC 29500 Strict
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>>
>>> Jaime
>>>
>>>
>> Which one of the above is the .docx file extension produced by MS Office
>> 2007 and 2010? That one is the most important of all IMHO.
>
> I also agree that Ms Office 2010 format is coming more and more common
> and should be a *MUST*.
> On the other hand, RTF seems so bastard that basic support is probably
> ok.
>
Should the list be broken into READ WRITE.
It might be that a condition exists such as *must* READ MS Office 2003
XML, *Completely Irrelevant*: WRITE MS Office 2003 XML.


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