Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

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Scott Furry Scott Furry
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Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

  LibreOffice Community,

As suggested, this post is intended to get the opinion of the community
about how best to deliver LibreOffice to its users.

Given that LibreOffice is an important and viable alternative to
paid-for office productivity software, and we all feel strongly and
passionately about the direction of LibreOffice, input about the
community members' expectations/needs/users is needed.

 From what we have heard on this topic so far:

- Mac users have commented that they do not have an issue with the
current installer available on the Mac platform.

- Window users indicated that an update mechanism would be great. Some
commented that the current Windows installer leaves artifacts behind.
The Windows Installer does not detect/remove previous installations
properly.

- Linux users have discussed vast amounts opinions on packaging in
Linux. Some have questioned if distributing packages is a good thing.

-----------------------

This survey is to gauge the views of the LibreOffice community on the
install/update method of LibreOffice. Please voice your opinion so that
these considerations may be taken into account when the LibreOffice
method of install/update is studied by the developer team. Please
*bottom-post* your opinions.

How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?

How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?

What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice?

Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an
example), if it was technically feasible, would having a separate
install program for LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to you?

Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux package
repository site, be of value to you?

-----------------------

Please note that I am not affiliated with DocumentFoundation. I am like
you, a community member who wants to see LibreOffice be very successful.

So let's hear what you think folks?

Regards,
Scott Furry


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eskroni eskroni
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

Hi @all,

Am Sat, 09 Oct 2010 15:23:39 -0600
schrieb Scott Furry <[hidden email]>:

>   LibreOffice Community,
>

[...]

>  From what we have heard on this topic so far:
>
> - Mac users have commented that they do not have an issue with the
> current installer available on the Mac platform.
>
> - Window users indicated that an update mechanism would be great.
> Some commented that the current Windows installer leaves artifacts
> behind. The Windows Installer does not detect/remove previous
> installations properly.
>
> - Linux users have discussed vast amounts opinions on packaging in
> Linux. Some have questioned if distributing packages is a good thing.
>
> -----------------------
>
> This survey is to gauge the views of the LibreOffice community on the
> install/update method of LibreOffice. Please voice your opinion so
> that these considerations may be taken into account when the
> LibreOffice method of install/update is studied by the developer
> team. Please *bottom-post* your opinions.

I am using mostly Linux (Mandriva, hopefully soon Mageia) and only
occasionally Windows XP.
 
> How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?

I would love to have incremental updates, but I fear it might get too
complicated if one or more updates are skipped inbetween.
 
> How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?

I have two versions of OOo/LibO installed - once the version that came
with my Linux distro and then the vanilla version, installed with
rpm/urpmi. This works great for me, because the two versions are
installed in different paths.
 
> What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice?

That it works. ;-)
I would want to have different installation paths, so that I can
continue having two versions of OOo/LibO.
 
> Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an
> example), if it was technically feasible, would having a separate
> install program for LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to
> you?
 
Not for Linux. For Windows I can see that it might be useful.

> Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux
> package repository site, be of value to you?

Not particularly. I am happy with downloading the zipped file and
unpacking it on my system. But I am sure, that I would use the
repository if it is available. I have doubts nonetheless, if it is easy
to have all the mandatory extra files (hdlist.cz for Mandriva, don't
know what kind of file the other distros need) that tell the user what
is available in this repository.

Sigrid

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RGB.ES RGB.ES
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by Scott Furry
2010/10/9 Scott Furry <[hidden email]>:
> -----------------------
>
> This survey is to gauge the views of the LibreOffice community on the
> install/update method of LibreOffice. Please voice your opinion so that
> these considerations may be taken into account when the LibreOffice method
> of install/update is studied by the developer team. Please *bottom-post*
> your opinions.
I use mainly Linux: openSUSE 11.2 64 bits at the moment.

>
> How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?
I think the method used by OOo (tar.gz files with rpms or debs) is Ok.

>
> How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?
Being a beta, I uncompressed the rpms (see below)

>
> What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice?
No dependencies conflicts ;)

>
> Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an example), if
> it was technically feasible, would having a separate install program for
> LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to you?
No. I think it could be useful on windows systems, but on Linux... no.

>
> Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux package
> repository site, be of value to you?
I don't think a single rpm repository will work for every rpm distro
so... download site, yes, repository, no: that's distro work.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
How to "install" LibO:

1- Unpack the tar.gz file with the rpms

2- Create a folder inside the RPMS folder

3- Open a terminal on that folder

4- Run this command:
for i in ../l*.rpm; do rpm2cpio $i | cpio -id; done
A folder called /opt is created with the complete install on it.

5- on /your_custom_install_path/opt/libreoffice3/program you can find
the scripts to launch the program.

6- it is possible to edit the file bootstraprc to change the user
profile folder destination (UserInstallation variable: $ORIGIN will
use the "install" folder).

7- test

8- report bugs

Something similar can be done with debs, but I'm from a rpm world ;)

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jcausey_df jcausey_df
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by Scott Furry
  On 10/09/2010 05:23 PM, Scott Furry wrote:

>  LibreOffice Community,
>
> As suggested, this post is intended to get the opinion of the
> community about how best to deliver LibreOffice to its users.
>
> Given that LibreOffice is an important and viable alternative to
> paid-for office productivity software, and we all feel strongly and
> passionately about the direction of LibreOffice, input about the
> community members' expectations/needs/users is needed.
>
> From what we have heard on this topic so far:
>
> - Mac users have commented that they do not have an issue with the
> current installer available on the Mac platform.
>
> - Window users indicated that an update mechanism would be great. Some
> commented that the current Windows installer leaves artifacts behind.
> The Windows Installer does not detect/remove previous installations
> properly.
>
> - Linux users have discussed vast amounts opinions on packaging in
> Linux. Some have questioned if distributing packages is a good thing.
>
> -----------------------
>
> This survey is to gauge the views of the LibreOffice community on the
> install/update method of LibreOffice. Please voice your opinion so
> that these considerations may be taken into account when the
> LibreOffice method of install/update is studied by the developer team.
> Please *bottom-post* your opinions.
>
> How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?
>
> How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?
>
> What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice?
>
> Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an
> example), if it was technically feasible, would having a separate
> install program for LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to
> you?
>
> Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux
> package repository site, be of value to you?
>
> -----------------------
>
> Please note that I am not affiliated with DocumentFoundation. I am
> like you, a community member who wants to see LibreOffice be very
> successful.
>
> So let's hear what you think folks?
>
> Regards,
> Scott Furry
>
>
Currently run LibreOffice on both Linux Mint and Windows XP platforms.

How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?

After the initial install, I would prefer something similar to what
Mozilla does with FF and TB - incremental updates.

How do you install/update LibreOffice?

On Win XP, this is a full download of the file.  Unfortunately, like
OOo, it leaves quite a bit of leftover files.  Who knows if I actually
found all of them in an effort to keep things as clean as possible.

On Linux Mint, this was a download of a deb file and install using the
CLI.  Then some hunting around to find the files since the desktop
didn't pick it up (I understand this may be better as it gets out of
beta).  I have it running, but a lot of poking around since I'm not real
familiar with the install process.

What do you expect when installing/updating LibreOffice?

As said, an incremental update would be preferable.  On Win XP, would
prefer install files not be put on the desktop by default and wherever
they go, they should be removed at the end of the install process.  
Would really like it if it could be installed without Admin rights.  On
Linux Mint, main thing would be an easy way to find the updates and be
able to install with a couple mouse clicks.

Having a separate program to handle the updating?

Would be fine with me.

Having a download/update site or repository site for Linux be useful?

Definitely if some clear instructions/guidance are provided for using it.

HTH!

Jeff

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Andrea Pescetti Andrea Pescetti
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by Scott Furry
Scott Furry wrote:
> Given that LibreOffice is an important and viable alternative to
> paid-for office productivity software

You seem to imply here that LibreOffice will be distributed for free.
Note that, as far as I know, the Document Foundation never issued public
statements about this (although I would be very surprised if LibreOffice
stable versions are not made available for free), and that under the
licensing terms anybody can redistribute LibreOffice and ask a fee for it.

I hoped that the questionable naming of LibreOffice would at least have
the good effect of clarifying the "free/libre" issue...

Regards,
   Andrea Pescetti.


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epix epix
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by Scott Furry
Am 09.10.2010 23:23, schrieb Scott Furry:
> As suggested, this post is intended to get the opinion of the community
> about how best to deliver LibreOffice to its users.

Maybe a new thread for the survey would be helpful to get attention from
those not following the "install" thread.


[...]
> -----------------------
>
> This survey is to gauge the views of the LibreOffice community on the
> install/update method of LibreOffice. Please voice your opinion so that
> these considerations may be taken into account when the LibreOffice
> method of install/update is studied by the developer team. Please
> *bottom-post* your opinions.

Me and my customers are mainly using Win XP, Vista and 7 so I'm used to
irritation/questions/complaints on the leftovers.

> How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?

Preferrably by incremental update similar to e.g. Firefox.


> How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?

Installer download and manually removing leftover files, there have been
no updates so far.


> What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice?

It should NOT overwrite an existing OOo install and just grab the
existing user files as it happened now.

Updates should be incremental, notified and downloaded in the background
but let the user choose when to install.
Necessary files should go to a temp folder and preferably be removed by
the installer after completion.


> Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an
> example), if it was technically feasible, would having a separate
> install program for LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to you?

Yes, it could replace the extensions updater and offer a choice which
parts of LO should be updated.


> Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux package
> repository site, be of value to you?

Certainly yes, a very useful example is
http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/.


> So let's hear what you think folks?

done

Erich


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by Scott Furry
Le 2010-10-09 17:23, Scott Furry a écrit :

> LibreOffice Community,
>
> As suggested, this post is intended to get the opinion of the community
> about how best to deliver LibreOffice to its users.
>
> Given that LibreOffice is an important and viable alternative to
> paid-for office productivity software, and we all feel strongly and
> passionately about the direction of LibreOffice, input about the
> community members' expectations/needs/users is needed.
>
>  From what we have heard on this topic so far:
>
> - Mac users have commented that they do not have an issue with the
> current installer available on the Mac platform.
>
> - Window users indicated that an update mechanism would be great. Some
> commented that the current Windows installer leaves artifacts behind.
> The Windows Installer does not detect/remove previous installations
> properly.
>
> - Linux users have discussed vast amounts opinions on packaging in
> Linux. Some have questioned if distributing packages is a good thing.
>
> -----------------------
>
> This survey is to gauge the views of the LibreOffice community on the
> install/update method of LibreOffice. Please voice your opinion so that
> these considerations may be taken into account when the LibreOffice
> method of install/update is studied by the developer team. Please
> *bottom-post* your opinions.
>
> How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?

I would favour an incremental update for the suite rather than a full
download.

>
> How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?

In installed from the LibO "downloads" .rpm's. OpenOffice, through my
distro's packaging system (Mandriva). I also, from time to time,
downloaded the "most recent" version of OpenOffice from the
OpenOffice.org site because I didn't want to wait for my distro's next
update. Sometimes the packager would take too long, or they would offer
the next upgraded version of OpenOffice at the next Mandriva distro upgrade.

>
> What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice?

No residual files leftovers.

>
> Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an
> example), if it was technically feasible, would having a separate
> install program for LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to you?

I would prefer this method. Incremental of course.

>
> Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux package
> repository site, be of value to you?

I would prefer an official LibO repo that where I could point my package
manager. I my linux distro wanted to rework the LibO suite for a more
integrated look (theme), this could be at their option.

I this were possible, the various Linux distro's could be made aware of
this and would just code their packaging systems (for users) to point to
the LibO repo. There would have to be a way for LibO to find a way to
"play nice" with dependencies so that it would not break the Linux
distro installations.

>
> -----------------------
>
> Please note that I am not affiliated with DocumentFoundation. I am like
> you, a community member who wants to see LibreOffice be very successful.
>
> So let's hear what you think folks?
>
> Regards,
> Scott Furry
>
>

Marc


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by epix
Le 2010-10-10 06:22, Erich Christian a écrit :

> Am 09.10.2010 23:23, schrieb Scott Furry:
>> As suggested, this post is intended to get the opinion of the community
>> about how best to deliver LibreOffice to its users.
>
> Maybe a new thread for the survey would be helpful to get attention from
> those not following the "install" thread.
>
>
> Erich
>
>

Hi Erich

This is a new thread exactly for that reason.

Marc


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epix epix
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

Hi Marc,

Am 10.10.2010 14:36, schrieb Marc Paré:
> Le 2010-10-10 06:22, Erich Christian a écrit :
>> Maybe a new thread for the survey would be helpful to get attention from
>> those not following the "install" thread.
> This is a new thread exactly for that reason.

Thx, guess my Thunderbird sorted wrong... was looking in vain for
further replies including mine in the old thread...  ;-)

Erich

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Paul A Norman Paul A Norman
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by Scott Furry
On 10 October 2010 10:23, Scott Furry <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  LibreOffice Community,
>
> As suggested, this post is intended to get the opinion of the community
> about how best to deliver LibreOffice to its users.
>
> Given that LibreOffice is an important and viable alternative to paid-for
> office productivity software, and we all feel strongly and passionately
> about the direction of LibreOffice, input about the community members'
> expectations/needs/users is needed.
>
> From what we have heard on this topic so far:
>
> - Mac users have commented that they do not have an issue with the current
> installer available on the Mac platform.
>
> - Window users indicated that an update mechanism would be great. Some
> commented that the current Windows installer leaves artifacts behind. The
> Windows Installer does not detect/remove previous installations properly.
>

With all due repsects to the vast numbers of potential new M$ users of
LiBO - everything needs to be done for them. That will probably never
change. There are millions and millions of them who are not going to
be in a *nix system - sometimes beyond their control.

People have ended up with over a gigs worth of OOO stuff over time,
and only about a quarter or less of it, actually in use.

In fact in previous installs of OOO people have commented to me that
they have felt that OOO needs all its install files to keep running
properly, and so they can't delete them after the installs!
(There, to my knowledge, has never been a message telling them to
delete install files at the end of the install - and it really should
be done for them any way).

> - Linux users have discussed vast amounts opinions on packaging in Linux.
> Some have questioned if distributing packages is a good thing.
>
> -----------------------
>
> This survey is to gauge the views of the LibreOffice community on the
> install/update method of LibreOffice. Please voice your opinion so that
> these considerations may be taken into account when the LibreOffice method
> of install/update is studied by the developer team. Please *bottom-post*
> your opinions.
>

I am trying to answer all this also as I *know* other friends and
users would like an office suite to operate, who have avoided/not been
happy with OOO and like things in the past.

> How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?
>

Behind the scenes and uttlery automatically, with prompts only if new
options are available.

> How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?
>

XP - Download directly.
Ubuntu - presently - package manager (please see note below)

> What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice?
>

It will handle all dependencies, keep track of what it has done -
clean up after itself, only trouble me with real issues during setup,
updates just to be done and only trouble me if necessary.

> Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an example), if
> it was technically feasible, would having a separate install program for
> LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to you?
>

Absolutley.

> Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux package
> repository site, be of value to you?
>

I beleive so,

I may differ with some, but I believe that with the plethra of *nix
distributions now in varying degrees of maintanence, that actually
having a direct install to get the best availbele version of LiBO
installed is better, let us  risk a little (some times temporary)
bloat, and have isolated (used by LiBO only and so does not interfer
with the OS distro) more uptodate modules of dependanceis that the OS
is not uptodate on itself.  Have LiBO auto checking on each LiBO
update and if the OS distro has caught up, have LiBO delete its own
now unneeded module(s) and use the OS distro's updated shared
libraries instead.

> -----------------------
>
> Please note that I am not affiliated with DocumentFoundation. I am like you,
> a community member who wants to see LibreOffice be very successful.
>
> So let's hear what you think folks?
>
> Regards,
> Scott Furry
>
>
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> deleted.
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> http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/
>
>

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todd rme todd rme
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by Scott Furry
On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 5:23 PM, Scott Furry <[hidden email]> wrote:
> How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?

For windows, it should check whether there is an update both when the
program starts up and at regular intervals, with an option to force a
check.  By default it should probably download the update to a
temporary directory in the background, then when the download is
complete notify the user it is ready to install.

If the user is not running one of the programs, it should give the
user the option to install the update, be notified in a certain period
of time, or install the update manually later.  If the user is running
one of the programs, it should offer to install then, wait until the
user closes the program, or install manually later.  If it installs
then, it should save their entire session and their open documents,
close the program, install the update, delete the temporary files,
start up the programs again, and restore the session.  If the user
chooses to install when they close the program, it should wait until
all the programs have closed, then begin the installation.

For Linux, I would just use the built-in package manager.  I use
openSUSE, which provides optional up-to-date versions of all OOo
programs (and LO eventually I assume).

> How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?

For windows, I go to the go-oo website and download the latest
version, then I install it, then I delete the temporary files.

For Linux, I just use the package manager.

> What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice?

For windows, I expect that it would simply ask my permission to do the
update, then the rest would be automatic.  It would not interfere with
my work more than asking, it would not leave anything unnecessary
behind.

On Linux, I expect it to work the same as the rest of the software I
use.  No more, no less.  I don't want it doing it's own thing, the
package management solutions I have available to me fit my needs
perfectly.  The last thing I want is a program trying to bypass this
by doing its own, independent updates.  I prefer having everything
centralized in one interface, and this is much safer and more
reliable.

> Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an example), if
> it was technically feasible, would having a separate install program for
> LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to you?

For windows, yes.  Especially if it was able to handle the downloads
as well, so you just download a small installer and it automatically
retrieves what it needs from a server (or a list of mirrors).  This is
how Adobe does things with both flash and acrobat on windows.  It is a
bit annoying there because it requires installing stuff on your web
browser, but if it was a stand-alone program it would be perfect for
something like LO.

> Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux package
> repository site, be of value to you?

A windows download and update site would be useful to me.  A linux one
would not, since as I said openSUSE does a great job of keeping
up-to-date versions of packages available.  It may be more useful to
users of other distributions.

-Todd

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Benjamin Horst Benjamin Horst
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by Scott Furry
I don't feel like there are many Mac users talking about Mac issues on this list right now, but I know we're numerous, at least based on downloading statistics through the project history. To be thorough, here's my impression on installing for the Mac.

On Oct 9, 2010, at 5:23 PM, Scott Furry wrote:
> From what we have heard on this topic so far:
>
> - Mac users have commented that they do not have an issue with the current installer available on the Mac platform.

I'd like to clarify my previous comments here. The current installer works very well, but an incremental updater would be an even better option, if it allowed for smaller and quicker downloads and a background update process. (I see many users who simply don't update their software or forget to check for new versions, and Firefox and Chrome seem to have addressed this problem effectively with their auto updaters.)
> -----------------------
>
> This survey is to gauge the views of the LibreOffice community on the install/update method of LibreOffice. Please voice your opinion so that these considerations may be taken into account when the LibreOffice method of install/update is studied by the developer team. Please *bottom-post* your opinions.
>
> How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?

In an approach that is as platform-native as possible. The current Mac installer uses a disk image (.dmg) approach, which is exactly right for first installation.

> How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?

Currently, I download and install from the site. When upgrading, I simply overwrite the previous application bundle in OS X's Applications folder.

> What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice?

To me, state-of-the-art software updating on OS X is an automatic, background updating mechanism that only requires the user to restart the application (and approve an update), at which point updates will be applied.

> Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an example), if it was technically feasible, would having a separate install program for LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to you?

I find this concept very intriguing, and I think it could be the first step to a really cool app I've long wanted to see: if we band together with several other major FLOSS apps and build a unified installer/updater for Windows and Mac users, we could bring some of the advantages of Linux's package management systems to these platforms. Then, say, a user downloads Firefox or LibreOffice, and the updater application comes along with it. The package manager could help them update this application any time necessary, and it would also be able to suggest other apps they might like. Each FLOSS app could benefit from increased exposure, essentially "piggybacking" on the success of its siblings. I'd love to discuss this in greater depth, though it may be OT for this specific thread.

> Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux package repository site, be of value to you?

Yes, though I'm not sure exactly what this would do.

-Ben

Benjamin Horst
[hidden email]
646-464-2314 (Eastern)
www.solidoffice.com


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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

Benjamin Horst wrote:
> I don't feel like there are many Mac users talking about Mac issues on this list right now, but I know we're numerous, at least based on downloading statistics through the project history. To be thorough, here's my impression on installing for the Mac.

Hi Ben, I'm a Mac user as well, and I will try to express my feedback as
soon as I'll have some more time.

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Alex Thurgood Alex Thurgood
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by Benjamin Horst
 Hi all,

Well I have recently acquired a new Macbook Pro for work to replace my
old Linux netbook (RIP, sniff), and I also have a Windows XP machine
reserved for certain Windows only software that doesn't run well under
emulation, so I have been used to using OOo on all 3 platforms. On my
Mac I currently have OOo, NeoOffice and LibO. Of the three "competitors"
(for want of a better expression), NeoOffice seems to provide the
smoothest update system so far, being able to push small updates
relatively frequently. The other two at the moment require a complete
download and re-install, not really optimal.

Would I love LibO to be updated in smaller increments, the way Sun used
to do it with StarOffice ? Yes, please :-)

Whilst the installation of LibO on the Mac was painless, it still
represents a large download. Also, the installation set of LibO (and of
course OOo) on Mac is huge, totalling over 400 Mo : half a gig for an
office suite, now that's big and it seems to get bigger with each major
revision !! I haven't seen many other Mac programs occupy as much disk
space, except for some games. I seem to recall that the Linux and
Windows versions are significantly smaller than that once installed. If
there was some way that LibO could use the stuff from NeoOffice for
updating then I feel that that would be a pretty good way to go. When
Neo has an update available, it tells you on startup. You can ignore the
update message, or click on it to be taken to the website to download
it. It then proceeds to download the fixpack from the server.
Installation is by double-click on a disk image that turns out to be a
compressed pkg file, but it installs like most of the other Mac pkg
files, click, click, accept licence terms, click choose disk, install,
enter password, end of story. Nice, clean, neat.

I have seen even smoother updates for other software : Adium for example
AFAIK, which just seems to look them up, download, install and restart
all in one fell swoop - how cool is that ?


Just my two cents.


Alex


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NoOp NoOp
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by Scott Furry
On 10/09/2010 02:23 PM, Scott Furry wrote:

> This survey is to gauge the views of the LibreOffice community on the
> install/update method of LibreOffice. Please voice your opinion so that
> these considerations may be taken into account when the LibreOffice
> method of install/update is studied by the developer team. Please
> *bottom-post* your opinions.
>
> How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?

In linux via the standard distro package managers. Most distros OOo
broken down into various modules/packages, hence updating
doesn't/shouldn't require an entire redownload of the entire product.

In Windows via an update manager in a similar manner to the linux
distros; only update the portions of the program/package that require
updating. Having users redownload an entire program/package of this size
is counter productive and ends up discouraging repeat users...
particularly those with slow internet connections. Here's a good
example; disconnect your DSL/Cable/T1 et al, fire up that old POTS modem
and download LibO or OOo to your system. Install it, and then be
notified that version xyz has just been updated to xyk... fire up that
dialup modem, rinse, repeat.

Given that a large portion of the world (and certainly target users for
LibO) are unable to get fast internet connections (remote USA is a prime
example), consider the ease of distribution and updates. Anything that
can be done to ease the download burden for the user is welcome.

>
> How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?

For linux I simply (after finding where they are located) downloaded the
.deb file(s) and:

$ sudo /home/<user>/tempdir/LibreOffice32en-US/DEBS dpkg -i *.deb

the same way that I would with an OOo deb. Install went w/o issue and
was installed in parallel to my OOo packages: (Ubuntu (U)3.2.1, Standard
OOo 3.2.1, Standard OOo 3.3-dev etc).

For my test systems with Windows:

- Downloaded and installed the .exe on a WinXPPro system running in an
VMWare Player environment.

I was surprised, and very disappointed, to find that LibO exhibits the
exact same problem as installing go-oo or OxygenOffice on Windows: it
trashes the existing OOo on the user's system![1]  This is unacceptable;
LibreOffice should, on Windows, install (as the name implies) as a
separate, independent program and leave other programs intact. Windows
users should be "free" to use, install, and run in parallel OOo and LibO
if they wish.

LibO should *not* remove, touch, bother, any other program in the
process. This is the same situation Win users experienced with go-oo and
OxygenOffice; they both removed the users OOo install, and in LibO's
case does so without notifying the user up-front that this is happening.
The new/prospective LibO user is now left without their OOo install (yes
the profiles are left intact, but how many Win users know how to find
those). There is no import of the OOo profile(s) (there may be several),
just an empty OOo folder shell.

LibO, or OOo can be installed in parallel [1], but the user then has to
make a conscious decision to do so. If the user is technical enough to
figure out, or even inclined to do this, there are still issues: one of
them will not be added to the Start Menu, no system file association
will be made, no desktop icon; it's one or the other.

Program bin files are identical to OOo, meaning that they both use
soffice, scalc, etc. LibO should change these file names to loffice,
lcalce, etc., so that there is no duplicity/confusion as to which
program the user is to run.

I find the Win install issue critical to LibO's success/future.


>
> What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice?

A working install/upgrade without interference to other system programs
(OOo).

>
> Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an
> example), if it was technically feasible, would having a separate
> install program for LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to you?

No.

>
> Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux package
> repository site, be of value to you?

Having a linux repository is critical to LibO's success on linux. I test
such packages, but primarily only do one-off downloads when necessary
(new standard OOo packages being an example). The latter case means that
I only download & test/use when I "get around to it". The former case
(repo update/upgrade) gets my attention & I typically upgrade/update
when notified; I then spend my time/efforts evaluating/using the repo
version.

Note: I typically have at least 3-4 OOo versions installed at any one time:
o Ubuntu Proposed (U)OOo 3.2.1
o Standard OOo 3.2.1
o Dev OOo 3.3.x
o Go-oo (whatever version I decide to download & use alien to convert
from RPM's on linux, or the latest in Win)
o And now LibO versions (linux .deb and Win)
I also *require* the ability to run any of those in parallel and at the
same time as the others so that I can easily compare against the other,
and/or against my ancient versions of MS Office (2002 is my newest)
running in VM's.

[1] Please see my thread "[libreoffice-users] [Windows] LibO in
parallel w/OOo?" on the users list for added details.


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Harold Fuchs Harold Fuchs
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

On 12 October 2010 04:21, NoOp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10/09/2010 02:23 PM, Scott Furry wrote:
>
> > This survey is to gauge the views of the LibreOffice community on the
> > install/update method of LibreOffice. Please voice your opinion so that
> > these considerations may be taken into account when the LibreOffice
> > method of install/update is studied by the developer team. Please
> > *bottom-post* your opinions.
> >
> > How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?
>
>
The following comments apply to Windows only and are things I'd like to see

1. A single installation program, probably a .msi file that the user
downloads and executes. There must be a clear instruction up front that the
user must install the software as an Administrator.

2. The installation process must automatically delete any and all temporary
files & folders it created.

3. The installation process must give the user the option of taking over
file associations for MS office files.

4. There must be clear rules/options defining whether a new release
overwrites an existing release or is installed in parallel.
If the user opts to overwrite an existing installation (or of a new version
automatically overwrites an older one) then the new software must properly
inherit everything possible from the old:
- templates
- user details
- extensions, especially dictionaries
- any and all preferences

The installation process must clearly inform the user, in detail, about any
item that is not inheritable. The information provided must clearly identify
the item in question, must state a user-oriented reason (no hex codes
please!) and, if possible, make suggestions as to where a newer version can
be obtained.

5. It must be possible for the user to run the installed software as a
limited (restricted) user.

6. It must be possible for the instalation to be for "this user" (the
installer), "all users" or named users.

7. There must be a properly documented procedure for "silent" installation
over a network so that company Admins can install the software for the
company's users.

8. I reserve the right to add to this list ;-)

9. A properly documented MD5 (or equivalent) checking procedure, with
pointers to a free MD5 checker. (I used my reserved right to add to my list
...)

--
Harold Fuchs
London, England
Please do *not* reply to my personal e-mail address

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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by Scott Furry
On 2010-10-09 5:23 PM, Scott Furry wrote:
> How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?

I'll treat all questions as if you had asked not what I 'expect', but
what I would *like* to see...

Mac and Windows should have auto-updaters, Linux should have an
auto-updater available only when installed from source (if it is
practical), otherwise updates should be handled by the distros package
management system.

That said, if it isn't much trouble and doesn't take away from the LibO
developers resources, I see no reason that LibO couldn't offer up an
official repository for selected packages for the major distros.

> How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?

Download new version, uninstall old version, install new version.

I also install from a custom shortcut I have created that uses the
/msoreg=1 flag to force assign all of the file associations.

> What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice?

This should have been asked as two separate questions...

> What do you expect when Installing LibreOffice?

1. Please bring back the ability to associate Microsoft Office files
   in the GUI part of the installer

At install, I want to be able to select which file types to associate
with LibO. The installer should show what program they are currently
associated with, with a checkbox to associate them with LibO. The only
time that this checkbox should be automatically enabled by the installer
is if a) it is currently unassociated, or if it is associated with a
system app (ie, .doc files associated with wordpad).

This means at least 6 separate file associations (.doc, .docx, .xls,
.xlsx, .ppt, and .pptx). The template versions of these should
automatically be included (ie, .dot, .xlt, etc).

I'd like to see these able to be scripted, so I can have a network
installer set up to do silent installs with selected file associations
enabled.

2. Delete the unpacked installation files after successful install

3. Installer should always make *detailed* record of *everything* it
   does - files it put, where it put them, registry changes it made
   (for Windows), etc - this info to be used for repairing an existing
   install, or just uninstalling (should return the system to the state
   it was in prior to installing LibO - including but not limited to
   restoring any/all file associations, etc to their original state
   they were in prior to installing LibO

> What do you expect when Updating LibreOffice?

1. For Windows/Mac/Source-based Linux installs, I'd really like to
   see an incremental auto-updater with options to 'notify only',
   'download+notify', 'download+prompt-to-install+restart LibO', or
   'download+silent-install+restart LibO'

Restarting LibO after an applied update should *always* save all unsaved
work in open documents - probably safer to handle this part first before
applying update in case there is a problem auto-closing+saving anything.

2. LibO sorely needs a File Association Manager/Repair utility

 a) This utility should be a separate 'wizard' like utility that can
    only be run when the user who tries to run it has Admin/root
    privileges

 b) Since it is only dealing with File Associations, its operation
    should be extremely fast - ie, much faster than a repair install

 c) It should be capable of changing/repairing all file associations
    LibO is capable of handling, as well as repair any permission
    problems, including registry permission problems, a problem I
    have personally experienced more than once

3. As I said above, for *nix installs done using the systems package
   manager should use the package manager for updates as well. LibO
   documentation for package managers should make it loud and clear
   that the auto-updater function should be disabled in their packages
   (is there a way to force this?)

> Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an
> example), if it was technically feasible, would having a separate
> install program for LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to you?

Whether or not the auto-updater is a separate executable file is
irrelevant, but no, it should not be a separate 'program' that needs to
be installed separately, it should be integrated into the LibO core
code. It should be intelligent, meaning, it should know when it has the
correct permissions it needs to be able to successfully run, and under
what circumstances it should be enabled - ie, it needs both admin/root
permissions *and* (in the case of *nix) it should have been installed
from source (although I'm not sure how easy/reliably this could be
detected).

> Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux package
> repository site, be of value to you?

Depends on how it was implemented... but if implemented similar to the
Windows Update site, yes, that might be an interesting option. It would
need to be able to reliably detect the visitors OS, the current
installed version, and whether or not the visitor is currently logged on
with the same credentials it was installed with (ie, if it will be able
to successfully update itself with the current logged on user
credentials)... but it seems like a lot of/too much work, unless it was
*instead* of the auto-updater.

So, that's my .02 clad coins worth...

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Charles

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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by Harold Fuchs
I'll comment on points not covered in my response...

On 2010-10-12 8:38 AM, Harold Fuchs wrote:
> The following comments apply to Windows only and are things I'd like
> to see
>
> 1. A single installation program, probably a .msi file that the user
> downloads and executes. There must be a clear instruction up front
> that the user must install the software as an Administrator.

This would also be a first step toward full GPO support, which should be
high on the priority list, as that is one lack that prevents many large
corporations from rolling it out.

So, +10

> The installation process must clearly inform the user, in detail,
> about any item that is not inheritable. The information provided must
> clearly identify the item in question, must state a user-oriented
> reason (no hex codes please!) and, if possible, make suggestions as
> to where a newer version can be obtained.

Sounds like a lot of work for little gain - and most prefs fully
carry-over already...

> 5. It must be possible for the user to run the installed software as a
> limited (restricted) user.

Doesn't that work now?

> 6. It must be possible for the installation to be for "this user" (the
> installer), "all users" or named users.

Same here - I thought the first two already work that way - and I really
don't see a need for the third option - does *any* other program provide
such an option?

> 7. There must be a properly documented procedure for "silent" installation
> over a network so that company Admins can install the software for the
> company's users.

+1 - including fine-grained support for controlling file associations.

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Steven Shelton Steven Shelton
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by Scott Furry
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/9/2010 5:23 PM, Scott Furry wrote:
> How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?

I would expect it to be updated incrementally, like Firefox or Thunderbird.


> How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?

Download the entire huge file (which takes quite a while, even on a
high-speed connection) and install it (which takes quite a while, even
on a fast comnputer).


> What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice?

Not sure I understand the question.


> Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an
> example), if it was technically feasible, would having a separate
> install program for LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to you?

Not if it's done the way iTunes does it, because you have to download
the entire installation again and essentially reinstall.


> Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux package
> repository site, be of value to you?

Yes.


- --
Steven Shelton
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James Wilde James Wilde
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by Scott Furry
On Oct 9, 2010, at 23:23 , Scott Furry wrote:

<...>
> -----------------------
>
> This survey is to gauge the views of the LibreOffice community on the install/update method of LibreOffice. Please voice your opinion so that these considerations may be taken into account when the LibreOffice method of install/update is studied by the developer team. Please *bottom-post* your opinions.
>
> How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?

Answering as a simple user, I'd like LibO to check for new updates, say, once a week by default, adjustable for those who want to adjust it, and notify me when one is available and ask me whether I want to d/l it.  Options: No, Yes, Ask me again in x days.

Whether it's incremental or total is unimportant to me.
>
> How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?

Mac and Windows: Install by surfing to libreoffice.org and going to the download page (as I did with OOo).  Update as above (also as per OOo).
Linux: it's usually included in the distro, but if it's not, I'd check the repository first, and in second place surf to LibO.

>
> What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice?

That the new version remembers all my settings, all my recent files, all my extensions.  That it notifies me if any settings are changedm, or extensions don't work with this version, and offer to check for an update to fix the problem.  That it preferably asks me if I want to get rid of competing programs/versions, and if the answer is Yes, gets rid of them completely.
>
> Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an example), if it was technically feasible, would having a separate install program for LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to you?

I'm always a little suspicious of what these programs do, but I'd make an exception for a LibO one, since I trust you guys.  :)
Not especially useful for me, but if it makes life easier for you.
>
> Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux package repository site, be of value to you?

Not to me personally, but would be useful for updates on my linux boxes.  Problem is the distro versions are often a version or two out of date.  (This is a problem?)
>
> -----------------------

//James
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