Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

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AG AG
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

On 09/10/10 22:23, Scott Furry wrote:

>  LibreOffice Community,
>
> As suggested, this post is intended to get the opinion of the
> community about how best to deliver LibreOffice to its users.
>
> Given that LibreOffice is an important and viable alternative to
> paid-for office productivity software, and we all feel strongly and
> passionately about the direction of LibreOffice, input about the
> community members' expectations/needs/users is needed.
>
>
<snip>
>
> - Linux users have discussed vast amounts opinions on packaging in
> Linux. Some have questioned if distributing packages is a good thing.
>
-----------------------
>
> This survey is to gauge the views of the LibreOffice community on the
> install/update method of LibreOffice. Please voice your opinion so
> that these considerations may be taken into account when the
> LibreOffice method of install/update is studied by the developer team.
> Please *bottom-post* your opinions.
>
> How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?

As a Debian GNU/ Linux user my system benefits from the most advanced
package update/ maintenance system (apt), so as long as the Deb package
maintainers can package LibO, that would be my preferred way of having
it installed and updated

>
> How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?

See above.

>
> What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice?

No unmet dependencies, for the installation to clear up any cruft and
obsolete packages.

>
> Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an
> example), if it was technically feasible, would having a separate
> install program for LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to
> you?

Personally, no.

>
> Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux
> package repository site, be of value to you?

Yes, for general purposes and potential new users from the world of
Slackware or distros without advanced package management systems (better
watch out for flames now from angry Slackers!!)

>
> -----------------------
>
> Please note that I am not affiliated with DocumentFoundation. I am
> like you, a community member who wants to see LibreOffice be very
> successful.

I appreciate you doing this, and at the risk of hi-jacking this thread,
perhaps we can also request that LibO developers put some thought into
resolving the long list of counter-intuitive and unnecessarily complex
ways of going about things that currently plague OOo from text wrapping
in Impress to watermarks in Writer to the intransigence of bullets to be
indented, etc.  These kinds of small incremental modifications would, I
think, help make LibO more successful.

AG

>
> So let's hear what you think folks?
>
> Regards,
> Scott Furry
>
>


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Paul A Norman Paul A Norman
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

>I appreciate you doing this, and at the risk of hi-jacking this thread, perhaps we can also request that LibO developers put some thought into resolving the long list of counter-intuitive and unnecessarily complex ways of going about things that currently plague OOo from text wrapping in Impress to watermarks in Writer to the intransigence of bullets to be indented, etc.  These kinds of small incremental modifications would, I think, help make LibO more successful.

This would probably warrant a whole forum level of its own, and would
provide a valuable resource for developers. Ironing out a list of such
things from the very beginning woud definetly put the development
process into getting LiBO right uo "there", well ahead.


OOO has in a sense grown incrementally - with the consequence of some
things being added on top of things or grafted in, and is this new
venture going to provide the oppertunity to identify what those things
may be, and set things straight before more layers are added on top?

Hopefully :)
Paul

On 13 October 2010 12:07, AG <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 09/10/10 22:23, Scott Furry wrote:
>>
>>  LibreOffice Community,
>>
>> As suggested, this post is intended to get the opinion of the community
>> about how best to deliver LibreOffice to its users.
>>
>> Given that LibreOffice is an important and viable alternative to paid-for
>> office productivity software, and we all feel strongly and passionately
>> about the direction of LibreOffice, input about the community members'
>> expectations/needs/users is needed.
>>
>>
> <snip>
>>
>> - Linux users have discussed vast amounts opinions on packaging in Linux.
>> Some have questioned if distributing packages is a good thing.
>>
> -----------------------
>>
>> This survey is to gauge the views of the LibreOffice community on the
>> install/update method of LibreOffice. Please voice your opinion so that
>> these considerations may be taken into account when the LibreOffice method
>> of install/update is studied by the developer team. Please *bottom-post*
>> your opinions.
>>
>> How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?
>
> As a Debian GNU/ Linux user my system benefits from the most advanced
> package update/ maintenance system (apt), so as long as the Deb package
> maintainers can package LibO, that would be my preferred way of having it
> installed and updated
>
>>
>> How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?
>
> See above.
>
>>
>> What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice?
>
> No unmet dependencies, for the installation to clear up any cruft and
> obsolete packages.
>
>>
>> Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an example),
>> if it was technically feasible, would having a separate install program for
>> LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to you?
>
> Personally, no.
>
>>
>> Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux package
>> repository site, be of value to you?
>
> Yes, for general purposes and potential new users from the world of
> Slackware or distros without advanced package management systems (better
> watch out for flames now from angry Slackers!!)
>
>>
>> -----------------------
>>
>> Please note that I am not affiliated with DocumentFoundation. I am like
>> you, a community member who wants to see LibreOffice be very successful.
>
> I appreciate you doing this, and at the risk of hi-jacking this thread,
> perhaps we can also request that LibO developers put some thought into
> resolving the long list of counter-intuitive and unnecessarily complex ways
> of going about things that currently plague OOo from text wrapping in
> Impress to watermarks in Writer to the intransigence of bullets to be
> indented, etc.  These kinds of small incremental modifications would, I
> think, help make LibO more successful.
>
> AG
>
>>
>> So let's hear what you think folks?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Scott Furry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail to [hidden email]
> All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted.
> List archives are available at
> http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/
>
>

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

Le 2010-10-12 20:34, Paul A Norman a écrit :

>> I appreciate you doing this, and at the risk of hi-jacking this thread, perhaps we can also request that LibO developers put some thought into resolving the long list of counter-intuitive and unnecessarily complex ways of going about things that currently plague OOo from text wrapping in Impress to watermarks in Writer to the intransigence of bullets to be indented, etc.  These kinds of small incremental modifications would, I think, help make LibO more successful.
>
> This would probably warrant a whole forum level of its own, and would
> provide a valuable resource for developers. Ironing out a list of such
> things from the very beginning woud definetly put the development
> process into getting LiBO right uo "there", well ahead.
>
>
> OOO has in a sense grown incrementally - with the consequence of some
> things being added on top of things or grafted in, and is this new
> venture going to provide the oppertunity to identify what those things
> may be, and set things straight before more layers are added on top?
>
> Hopefully :)
> Paul
>
> On 13 October 2010 12:07, AG<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> On 09/10/10 22:23, Scott Furry wrote:
>>>
>>>   LibreOffice Community,
>>>
>>> As suggested, this post is intended to get the opinion of the community
>>> about how best to deliver LibreOffice to its users.
>>>
>>> Given that LibreOffice is an important and viable alternative to paid-for
>>> office productivity software, and we all feel strongly and passionately
>>> about the direction of LibreOffice, input about the community members'
>>> expectations/needs/users is needed.
>>>
>>>
>> <snip>
>>>
>>> - Linux users have discussed vast amounts opinions on packaging in Linux.
>>> Some have questioned if distributing packages is a good thing.
>>>
>> -----------------------
>>>
>>> This survey is to gauge the views of the LibreOffice community on the
>>> install/update method of LibreOffice. Please voice your opinion so that
>>> these considerations may be taken into account when the LibreOffice method
>>> of install/update is studied by the developer team. Please *bottom-post*
>>> your opinions.
>>>
>>> How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?
>>
>> As a Debian GNU/ Linux user my system benefits from the most advanced
>> package update/ maintenance system (apt), so as long as the Deb package
>> maintainers can package LibO, that would be my preferred way of having it
>> installed and updated
>>
>>>
>>> How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?
>>
>> See above.
>>
>>>
>>> What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice?
>>
>> No unmet dependencies, for the installation to clear up any cruft and
>> obsolete packages.
>>
>>>
>>> Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an example),
>>> if it was technically feasible, would having a separate install program for
>>> LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to you?
>>
>> Personally, no.
>>
>>>
>>> Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux package
>>> repository site, be of value to you?
>>
>> Yes, for general purposes and potential new users from the world of
>> Slackware or distros without advanced package management systems (better
>> watch out for flames now from angry Slackers!!)
>>
>>>
>>> -----------------------
>>>
>>> Please note that I am not affiliated with DocumentFoundation. I am like
>>> you, a community member who wants to see LibreOffice be very successful.
>>
>> I appreciate you doing this, and at the risk of hi-jacking this thread,
>> perhaps we can also request that LibO developers put some thought into
>> resolving the long list of counter-intuitive and unnecessarily complex ways
>> of going about things that currently plague OOo from text wrapping in
>> Impress to watermarks in Writer to the intransigence of bullets to be
>> indented, etc.  These kinds of small incremental modifications would, I
>> think, help make LibO more successful.
>>
>> AG
>>
>>>
>>> So let's hear what you think folks?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Scott Furry
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail to [hidden email]
>> All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
>> deleted.
>> List archives are available at
>> http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/
>>
>>
>

This survey was started to collect the data/thoughts/opinions that were
aired in 3-4-5 different threads. The hope is that the thread will
serve/help devs in getting a better picture of the community's
expectations at this point.

Marc


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Bernd Glueckert Bernd Glueckert
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by James Wilde
  On Oct 9, 2010, at 23:23 , Scott Furry wrote:
> <...>
>> -----------------------
>>
>> This survey is to gauge the views of the LibreOffice community on the install/update method of LibreOffice. Please voice your opinion so that these considerations may be taken into account when the LibreOffice method of install/update is studied by the developer team. Please *bottom-post* your opinions.
>>
>> How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?
My point of view is from an admin for a mid sized company network that
has different os types (windows, linux, mac), all of them in different
versions (e.g win 2000 ... win 7) and different distros (gentoo ...
suse). We have to manage this with minimum effort, maximum user
availability and maximum possibility to decide, what we do.

I think, LibO checks for new updates in an adjustable time period.

It would be nice to avoid too much "update available" messages - where
company users are not allowed to perform the update (no admin rights) so
they call our staff. Too much common applications (Acrobat reader, Java,
etc.) makes this noise every day.

Instead of noising the user I suggest to have a configuration option
where the LibO systems sends me a mail informing me: Time to visit this
computer!

The king class setup / update proc specially for company environments is
a possibility to have a common script where I put standard settings.
This helps to minimize the roll out of this application.

Incremental update would be nice, but its not a must have - if the
package size didn't grow too much.


>> How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?

Windows and Linux users: Download the package to our internal software
download server and installing the updates via remote access after users
has finished work.

Installation is made during roll out of new workstations from the same
source.

Mac: Download from webpage.

>> What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice?
The new version remembers all my settings, recent files and extensions.
Notification during update if there is an extension or setting, which is
not compatible.

>> Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an example), if it was technically feasible, would having a separate install program for LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to you?
It's not a simple task to check all these update programs available from
the different application providers.

I think, external update programs will make it easier for the developers.

But please: No download plugins for IE / firefox like Adobe. This
increases our maintenance effort.


>> Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux package repository site, be of value to you?
Yes! And together with this: It would be nice to have access to previous
versions together with a small info, whats changed.

So long - Bernd

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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by Paul A Norman
On 2010-10-12 8:34 PM, Paul A Norman wrote:
>> I appreciate you doing this, and at the risk of hi-jacking this
>> thread, perhaps we can also request that LibO developers put some
>> thought into resolving the long list of counter-intuitive and
>> unnecessarily complex ways of going about things that currently
>> plague OOo from text wrapping in Impress to watermarks in Writer to
>> the intransigence of bullets to be indented, etc. These kinds of
>> small incremental modifications would, I think, help make LibO more
>> successful.

> This would probably warrant a whole forum level of its own, and
> would provide a valuable resource for developers. Ironing out a list
> of such things from the very beginning woud definetly put the
> development process into getting LiBO right uo "there", well ahead.

I'd start with perusing the current OOo bug tracker for the top ranking
bugs and enhancement requests, but I would like to see a purging (don't
bring all of the cruft)...

This is another good way that people like me (non-programmers) can
participate...

--

Best regards,

Charles

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AG AG
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by Paul A Norman
On 13/10/10 01:34, Paul A Norman wrote:

>> I appreciate you doing this, and at the risk of hi-jacking this thread, perhaps we can also request that LibO developers put some thought into resolving the long list of counter-intuitive and unnecessarily complex ways of going about things that currently plague OOo from text wrapping in Impress to watermarks in Writer to the intransigence of bullets to be indented, etc.  These kinds of small incremental modifications would, I think, help make LibO more successful.
>>      
> This would probably warrant a whole forum level of its own, and would
> provide a valuable resource for developers. Ironing out a list of such
> things from the very beginning woud definetly put the development
> process into getting LiBO right uo "there", well ahead.
>
>
> OOO has in a sense grown incrementally - with the consequence of some
> things being added on top of things or grafted in, and is this new
> venture going to provide the oppertunity to identify what those things
> may be, and set things straight before more layers are added on top?
>    

As a non-programmer, [1] I haven't a clue as to how to influence what
happens in a piece of software that I rely on to handle the demands of
my postgraduate studies course work as well as for my family's personal
use.  I +do+ know what works for me as a user however, and my partner is
quite vocal in her dissatisfaction/ frustration with a given user
operation or UI design issues, so between the two of us there are a
number of niggles - not bugs, or at least, not that I can categorically
define as such - that make OOo/ LibO feel clunky and awkward at times, &
as a generally very user I would like to contribute in some small way.

A top-level forum for users to provide feature/ amendment requests &
feedback to developers might be a pretty good thing to make LibO driven
by a user base as the (certainly in my case!) grateful beneficiary of
robust (i.e. stable, resource efficient & secure) code that stays out of
the way of the user, does what the user wants it to do in a way that is
either intuitive or self-evident to the user, and offers a clean and
meaningful UI.

Not really asking for a lot then, am I?  :-)

Cheers

AG

[1] Altho' I've dabbled & while I find it fascinating by what can be
accomplished with basic electronic on/ off switches, I stumble at object
oriented programming & classes, etc., and have difficulty expressing
concepts in code (Python, Scheme, bash, C, netLOGO - the common
denominator is me!

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Jon Hamkins-2 Jon Hamkins-2
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

In reply to this post by Scott Furry
On 10/09/2010 02:23 PM, Scott Furry wrote:

> How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated?

For linux, I would like libreoffice.org to maintain a repository that I
can direct my package manager to use.  On fedora, a simple

# yum update libreoffice

should update me to the latest version, even if fedora package
maintainers have not yet incorporated it into their updates repos.  I
see that go-oo.org seems to be set up this way (but I have not used it),
and it looks like a good model to follow.

Additionally, to avoid having to download a huge full set of RPMs in
this process, it would be really great if the repo was set up to handle
delta RPMs.  This would be a big bandwidth saver on the server side, and
helpful on the user side for those who are on slower connections.

> How do you Install/Update LibreOffice?

Currently, I go to the site and manually download the huge .tar.gz of RPMs.

> Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an
> example), if it was technically feasible, would having a separate
> install program for LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to you?

For linux, definitely no.  That's what a package manager is for.  I
don't want each application to have it's own way of updating.

> Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux package
> repository site, be of value to you?

If there is a linux repo, that's all I'd use.

      ----Jon

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Charles Marcus Charles Marcus
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

On 2010-10-14 7:29 PM, Jon Hamkins wrote:
> For linux, I would like libreoffice.org to maintain a repository that I
> can direct my package manager to use.  On fedora, a simple
>
> # yum update libreoffice

I haven't used an RPM based distro in a really long time, but I'm
curious - when you add a 3rd party repo like this, does the package
manager still handle all of the dependencies correctly with respect to
the rest of the system and the other repos?

--

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Charles

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RGB.ES RGB.ES
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Re: Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update

2010/10/15 Charles Marcus <[hidden email]>:
> I haven't used an RPM based distro in a really long time, but I'm
> curious - when you add a 3rd party repo like this, does the package
> manager still handle all of the dependencies correctly with respect to
> the rest of the system and the other repos?
>
Sure!
rpm distros use rpm command plus some library that resolve
dependencies. Fedora uses yum, openSUSE uses libzip... The old holy
war rpm vs. deb is in the past: for users, there is no difference
between rpm distros and deb distros (other than the content of their
respective repositories, of course... but that's not a problem of
package format).

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