TDF Statutes -- check over the EN version

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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TDF Statutes -- check over the EN version

Hi everyone,

I was just re-reading the TDF Statutes web page[1] and would like to
suggest that a small group of us review the EN version (translation)
from the point of view of syntax, form and readability.

I have already made a few spelling corrections on the page, but I find
that it is in need of a review as it does not read well at all. I am
taking into account that this is a translation from the legal DE version
and that it is written in "legalese".

I believe the EN document needs close attention as most visitors to the
site who are serious in documenting our "Charter and Statutes" are
offered this document which I find could be improved while still
maintaining the integrity of the original DE text.

If we could have 4-5 of us, at least on DE member who is familiar (or
who want to be familiar with the DE document). We could put the text on
a wiki page (temporarily) and work with the corrections/improvements
from there. This should not take long.

I would also ask if Jean Hollis-Weber could help out with this if she
has time. The text needs some TLC from the point of view of punctuation,
syntax, form and all that is of EN grammatical rules.

This document is especially important to the project. We need to get
this page right. It defines who we are and how we do it.

Cheers,

Marc

[1] http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/statutes/

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mhenriday mhenriday
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Re: TDF Statutes -- check over the EN version

2012/9/13 Marc Paré <[hidden email]>

> Hi everyone,
>
> I was just re-reading the TDF Statutes web page[1] and would like to
> suggest that a small group of us review the EN version (translation) from
> the point of view of syntax, form and readability.
>
> I have already made a few spelling corrections on the page, but I find
> that it is in need of a review as it does not read well at all. I am taking
> into account that this is a translation from the legal DE version and that
> it is written in "legalese".
>
> I believe the EN document needs close attention as most visitors to the
> site who are serious in documenting our "Charter and Statutes" are offered
> this document which I find could be improved while still maintaining the
> integrity of the original DE text.
>
> If we could have 4-5 of us, at least on DE member who is familiar (or who
> want to be familiar with the DE document). We could put the text on a wiki
> page (temporarily) and work with the corrections/improvements from there.
> This should not take long.
>
> I would also ask if Jean Hollis-Weber could help out with this if she has
> time. The text needs some TLC from the point of view of punctuation,
> syntax, form and all that is of EN grammatical rules.
>
> This document is especially important to the project. We need to get this
> page right. It defines who we are and how we do it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Marc
>
> [1] http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/statutes/


 Marc, I don't know how exclusive you intend to be with your reference to
«a small group of us», but I'd be happy to help in refining the
English-language text....

Henri

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David Nelson David Nelson
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Re: TDF Statutes -- check over the EN version

In reply to this post by marcpare4
Hi Marc,

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 4:27 AM, Marc Paré <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I was just re-reading the TDF Statutes web page[1] and would like to suggest
> that a small group of us review the EN version (translation) from the point
> of view of syntax, form and readability

Since I helped with Charles Schulz with the original statutes when the
LibreOffice project first launched, I'm willing to help out with this
task. Plus understanding the German version won't be a problem for me.

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: TDF Statutes -- check over the EN version

In reply to this post by marcpare4
Hi Henri and David,


Le 2012-09-12 21:27, Marc Paré a écrit :

> Hi everyone,
>
> I was just re-reading the TDF Statutes web page[1] and would like to
> suggest that a small group of us review the EN version (translation)
> from the point of view of syntax, form and readability.
>
> I have already made a few spelling corrections on the page, but I find
> that it is in need of a review as it does not read well at all. I am
> taking into account that this is a translation from the legal DE version
> and that it is written in "legalese".
>
> I believe the EN document needs close attention as most visitors to the
> site who are serious in documenting our "Charter and Statutes" are
> offered this document which I find could be improved while still
> maintaining the integrity of the original DE text.
>
> If we could have 4-5 of us, at least on DE member who is familiar (or
> who want to be familiar with the DE document). We could put the text on
> a wiki page (temporarily) and work with the corrections/improvements
> from there. This should not take long.
>
> I would also ask if Jean Hollis-Weber could help out with this if she
> has time. The text needs some TLC from the point of view of punctuation,
> syntax, form and all that is of EN grammatical rules.
>
> This document is especially important to the project. We need to get
> this page right. It defines who we are and how we do it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Marc
>
> [1] http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/statutes/
>

Thanks for the offers. I am not sure how busy you are, but I propose we
put a copy on the wiki and work on the rewording/corrections there -- we
can use the "Discuss" section for our notes/questions. We may need notes
if we are going to suggest the modification to the BoD. Every section
needs to be referenced back to the DE version.

How does that sound?

Cheers,

Marc


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Anthony Easthope Anthony Easthope
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Re: TDF Statutes -- check over the EN version

Quick Question - Surely the legal language varies across some countries?
I know for instance some legal terms in New Zealand are unique to here ,
Although they are specifically related to areas of law that are beyond
my study. Don't ask me to provide some examples -- Was the result of a
question put forward to me by a friend on Friday

On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, at 06:27 AM, Marc Paré wrote:

> Hi Henri and David,
>
>
> Le 2012-09-12 21:27, Marc Paré a écrit po:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I was just re-reading the TDF Statutes web page[1] and would like to
> > suggest that a small group of us review the EN version (translation)
> > from the point of view of syntax, form and readability.
> >
> > I have already made a few spelling corrections on the page, but I find
> > that it is in need of a review as it does not read well at all. I am
> > taking into account that this is a translation from the legal DE version
> > and that it is written in "legalese".
> >
> > I believe the EN document needs close attention as most visitors to the
> > site who are serious in documenting our "Charter and Statutes" are
> > offered this document which I find could be improved while still
> > maintaining the integrity of the original DE text.
> >
> > If we could have 4-5 of us, at least on DE member who is familiar (or
> > who want to be familiar with the DE document). We could put the text on
> > a wiki page (temporarily) and work with the corrections/improvements
> > from there. This should not take long.
> >
> > I would also ask if Jean Hollis-Weber could help out with this if she
> > has time. The text needs some TLC from the point of view of punctuation,
> > syntax, form and all that is of EN grammatical rules.
> >
> > This document is especially important to the project. We need to get
> > this page right. It defines who we are and how we do it.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Marc
> >
> > [1] http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/statutes/
> >
>
> Thanks for the offers. I am not sure how busy you are, but I propose we
> put a copy on the wiki and work on the rewording/corrections there -- we
> can use the "Discuss" section for our notes/questions. We may need notes
> if we are going to suggest the modification to the BoD. Every section
> needs to be referenced back to the DE version.
>
> How does that sound?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Marc
>
>
> --
> Marc Paré
> [hidden email]
> http://www.parEntreprise.com
> parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
> parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org
>
>
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> deleted
>


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: TDF Statutes -- check over the EN version

Hi Anthony,

Le 2012-09-16 00:48, Anthony Easthope a écrit :
> Quick Question - Surely the legal language varies across some countries?
> I know for instance some legal terms in New Zealand are unique to here ,
> Although they are specifically related to areas of law that are beyond
> my study. Don't ask me to provide some examples -- Was the result of a
> question put forward to me by a friend on Friday
>

The TDF/LibreOffice global websites use International language as its
international language base. The documents will not be a legal document,
but a translation of a legal document. The TDF is registered in Germany
and the legal documents are in DE.

Cheers,

Marc


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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: TDF Statutes -- check over the EN version

Hi,

Marc Paré wrote on 2012-09-16 08:19:
> The TDF/LibreOffice global websites use International language as its
> international language base. The documents will not be a legal document,
> but a translation of a legal document. The TDF is registered in Germany
> and the legal documents are in DE.

the documents in their current form have been translated by a lawyer
together with a native speaker. So, from my POV, we should definitely be
very careful in changing words, and involving someone understanding the
German legal system can't harm (I can't volunteer, I desperately lack time).

Otherwise, I fear, we change the document according to "sounds good",
but screw up the meaning :-)

Florian

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Jean Weber Jean Weber
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Re: TDF Statutes -- check over the EN version

On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Florian Effenberger
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Marc Paré wrote on 2012-09-16 08:19:
>
>> The TDF/LibreOffice global websites use International language as its
>> international language base. The documents will not be a legal document,
>> but a translation of a legal document. The TDF is registered in Germany
>> and the legal documents are in DE.
>
>
> the documents in their current form have been translated by a lawyer
> together with a native speaker. So, from my POV, we should definitely be
> very careful in changing words, and involving someone understanding the
> German legal system can't harm (I can't volunteer, I desperately lack time).
>
> Otherwise, I fear, we change the document according to "sounds good", but
> screw up the meaning :-)


I think what it needs is more a matter of correcting the English
grammar and punctuation, not making it "sound good", although there
are a few places where the wording might be improved. Unfortunately, I
can't volunteer to help, either.

--Jean

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: TDF Statutes -- check over the EN version

In reply to this post by Florian Effenberger
Hi Florian,

Le 2012-09-16 05:39, Florian Effenberger a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> Marc Paré wrote on 2012-09-16 08:19:
>> The TDF/LibreOffice global websites use International language as its
>> international language base. The documents will not be a legal document,
>> but a translation of a legal document. The TDF is registered in Germany
>> and the legal documents are in DE.
>
> the documents in their current form have been translated by a lawyer
> together with a native speaker. So, from my POV, we should definitely be
> very careful in changing words, and involving someone understanding the
> German legal system can't harm (I can't volunteer, I desperately lack
> time).
>
> Otherwise, I fear, we change the document according to "sounds good",
> but screw up the meaning :-)
>
> Florian
>

Yes, the exercise is not to make the document "sound good", but to fix
grammatical/spelling errors in EN, establish a proper form (i.e. title
form should be uniform throughout the text) as well as make the document
sensible. This, all keeping true to the DE document which supersedes it
legally.

"The membership in the board of directors ends after term of office and
the appointment of a successor, by death or by resignation, which is
permissible at any time." -- this to me, in EN, is nonsensical. the
sentence needs to be reformulated to correctly represent the DE version.
There are more instances of incorrect use of punctuation that suggest
the wrong intent of sentences. There should also be no spellingz errers.

If the small team looking at the document is still not satisfactory, we
should wait till we have a member(s) who is/are familiar with the German
legal system to help.

A reminder to us that the TDF/LibreOffice make use of international
English on its site(s).

Cheers,

Marc

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mhenriday mhenriday
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Re: TDF Statutes -- check over the EN version

2012/9/16 Marc Paré <[hidden email]>

> Hi Florian,
>
> Le 2012-09-16 05:39, Florian Effenberger a écrit :
>
>  Hi,
>>
>> Marc Paré wrote on 2012-09-16 08:19:
>>
>>> The TDF/LibreOffice global websites use International language as its
>>> international language base. The documents will not be a legal document,
>>> but a translation of a legal document. The TDF is registered in Germany
>>> and the legal documents are in DE.
>>>
>>
>> the documents in their current form have been translated by a lawyer
>> together with a native speaker. So, from my POV, we should definitely be
>> very careful in changing words, and involving someone understanding the
>> German legal system can't harm (I can't volunteer, I desperately lack
>> time).
>>
>> Otherwise, I fear, we change the document according to "sounds good",
>> but screw up the meaning :-)
>>
>> Florian
>>
>>
> Yes, the exercise is not to make the document "sound good", but to fix
> grammatical/spelling errors in EN, establish a proper form (i.e. title form
> should be uniform throughout the text) as well as make the document
> sensible. This, all keeping true to the DE document which supersedes it
> legally.
>
> "The membership in the board of directors ends after term of office and
> the appointment of a successor, by death or by resignation, which is
> permissible at any time." -- this to me, in EN, is nonsensical. the
> sentence needs to be reformulated to correctly represent the DE version.
> There are more instances of incorrect use of punctuation that suggest the
> wrong intent of sentences. There should also be no spellingz errers.
>
> If the small team looking at the document is still not satisfactory, we
> should wait till we have a member(s) who is/are familiar with the German
> legal system to help.
>
> A reminder to us that the TDF/LibreOffice make use of international
> English on its site(s).
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Marc
>
> --
> Marc Paré
> [hidden email]
> http://www.parEntreprise.com <http://www.parentreprise.com/>
> parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
> parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org<http://www.libreoffice.org/>
>

Marc, the distinction you make between *producing* a legal document and *
translating* one is essential ; in cases of disagreement between versions,
it would (here) be the original German version which prevails. Our task
would rather be to improve the readability of the English language version,
to the degree that such is required. I find your idea of putting the text
on a wiki excellent....

Henri

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Thorsten Behrens Thorsten Behrens
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Re: TDF Statutes -- check over the EN version

In reply to this post by Florian Effenberger
Florian Effenberger wrote:
> the documents in their current form have been translated by a lawyer
> together with a native speaker. So, from my POV, we should
> definitely be very careful in changing words, and involving someone
> understanding the German legal system can't harm (I can't volunteer,
> I desperately lack time).
>
I can at least offer to proof-read the occasional intermediate
version. I was heavily involved in drafting both German & English
versions.

Cheers,

--
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The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
Rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint

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Anthony Easthope Anthony Easthope
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Re: TDF Statutes -- check over the EN version

A warning -- When translating a legal document make sure that it does
not lose it's original meaning. A classic example of this is New
Zealands treaty of waitangi (essentially the founding document of New
Zealands Bi-Cultural Constitution)
as we can see here it was here that due to a "Lost in translation" issue
that lead to alot of the issues that NZ has faced efor settlement claims
- (Read Article here:
http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/treaty/read-the-Treaty/differences-between-the-texts
).

It is true that the Deutch version will supersede the English
Translation in the court of law. How ever that would only be the case in
the German Jurisdiction - not for example in the British or American
Jurisdiction, Best solution here would be to draft an international code
or charter that can be freely interpreted by any court wherever and
whenever -- Easiest thing to do would be to translated the DE version of
course! :D
On Sun, 16ng  Sep 2012, at 10:17 PM, Thorsten Behrens wrote

> Florian Effenberger wrote:
> > the documents in their current form have been translated by a lawyer
> > together with a native speaker. So, from my POV, we should
> > definitely be very careful in changing words, and involving someone
> > understanding the German legal system can't harm (I can't volunteer,
> > I desperately lack time).
> >
> I can at least offer to proof-read the occasional intermediate
> version. I was heavily involved in drafting both German & English
> versions.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Thorsten Behrens, Director, Deputy Chairman of the Board
> The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
> Rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
> Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
> Problems?
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> List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>


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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: TDF Statutes -- check over the EN version

Hello Anthony,

I disagree. The German text will be the sole one with legal validity, in NZ
or elsewhere. And it will be the only text to be evaluated. There is no
easy way out of that in case of litigation but that's an established legal
practice. If this was a NZ based entity the same would apply: the text
would have to be read in NZ legal english.

Best,
Charles.
Le 17 sept. 2012 00:39, "Anthony Easthope" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> A warning -- When translating a legal document make sure that it does
> not lose it's original meaning. A classic example of this is New
> Zealands treaty of waitangi (essentially the founding document of New
> Zealands Bi-Cultural Constitution)
> as we can see here it was here that due to a "Lost in translation" issue
> that lead to alot of the issues that NZ has faced efor settlement claims
> - (Read Article here:
>
> http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/treaty/read-the-Treaty/differences-between-the-texts
> ).
>
> It is true that the Deutch version will supersede the English
> Translation in the court of law. How ever that would only be the case in
> the German Jurisdiction - not for example in the British or American
> Jurisdiction, Best solution here would be to draft an international code
> or charter that can be freely interpreted by any court wherever and
> whenever -- Easiest thing to do would be to translated the DE version of
> course! :D
> On Sun, 16ng  Sep 2012, at 10:17 PM, Thorsten Behrens wrote
> > Florian Effenberger wrote:
> > > the documents in their current form have been translated by a lawyer
> > > together with a native speaker. So, from my POV, we should
> > > definitely be very careful in changing words, and involving someone
> > > understanding the German legal system can't harm (I can't volunteer,
> > > I desperately lack time).
> > >
> > I can at least offer to proof-read the occasional intermediate
> > version. I was heavily involved in drafting both German & English
> > versions.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > --
> > Thorsten Behrens, Director, Deputy Chairman of the Board
> > The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
> > Rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
> > Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
> >
> > --
> > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
> > Problems?
> > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> > List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> > deleted
> >
>
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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: TDF Statutes -- check over the EN version

In reply to this post by marcpare4
Hi,

Marc Paré wrote on 2012-09-16 16:13:

> Yes, the exercise is not to make the document "sound good", but to fix
> grammatical/spelling errors in EN, establish a proper form (i.e. title
> form should be uniform throughout the text) as well as make the document
> sensible. This, all keeping true to the DE document which supersedes it
> legally.

I agree that there are at least some layout issues and typos that can
easily be fixed, plus maybe some more.

> If the small team looking at the document is still not satisfactory, we
> should wait till we have a member(s) who is/are familiar with the German
> legal system to help.

No problem about a small but dedicated team - just want to avoid double
work. :) The issue is that some terms are simply different in the
various legal systems. Like a "Foundation" is not the same in every
language - a UK or US Foundation are IMHO rather different to a German
"Stiftung". At the same time, legally spoken, our "members" are not
members, but the "board of trustees". There are several things to keep
in mind when editing the current version, which has been translated with
the focus on legal correctness.

Florian

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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: TDF Statutes -- check over the EN version

In reply to this post by Charles-H. Schulz
Hi,

Charles-H. Schulz wrote on 2012-09-17 10:38:
> I disagree. The German text will be the sole one with legal validity, in NZ
> or elsewhere. And it will be the only text to be evaluated. There is no
> easy way out of that in case of litigation but that's an established legal
> practice. If this was a NZ based entity the same would apply: the text
> would have to be read in NZ legal english.

indeed. That's why we try to make the English version be as close to the
German as possible.

It's similar for various entities (KDE and FSFE do the same), and even
for software licenses (e.g. the LGPL). Only the original version is
binding, and translations should be as close as possible to eliminate
language barriers.

Florian

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Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: TDF Statutes -- check over the EN version

In reply to this post by marcpare4
Hi everyone,

Le 2012-09-12 21:27, Marc Paré a écrit :

> Hi everyone,
>
> I was just re-reading the TDF Statutes web page[1] and would like to
> suggest that a small group of us review the EN version (translation)
> from the point of view of syntax, form and readability.
>
> I have already made a few spelling corrections on the page, but I find
> that it is in need of a review as it does not read well at all. I am
> taking into account that this is a translation from the legal DE version
> and that it is written in "legalese".
>
> I believe the EN document needs close attention as most visitors to the
> site who are serious in documenting our "Charter and Statutes" are
> offered this document which I find could be improved while still
> maintaining the integrity of the original DE text.
>
> If we could have 4-5 of us, at least on DE member who is familiar (or
> who want to be familiar with the DE document). We could put the text on
> a wiki page (temporarily) and work with the corrections/improvements
> from there. This should not take long.
>
> I would also ask if Jean Hollis-Weber could help out with this if she
> has time. The text needs some TLC from the point of view of punctuation,
> syntax, form and all that is of EN grammatical rules.
>
> This document is especially important to the project. We need to get
> this page right. It defines who we are and how we do it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Marc
>
> [1] http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/statutes/
>

Great, so it looks like we have a team.

Marc Paré
Henri Day
David Nelson
Thorsten Behrens

For any other onlookers, the working copy will be on the wiki[1] and the
rationale for any editing of text will be on the "Discuss" page (the tab
is at the top of the wiki page). Please do not modify the wiki page
unless you inform any of us (team members) working on the page review.

Cheers,

Marc
[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Statutes


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