Tabs and tab stops in text boxes

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snowshed snowshed
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Tabs and tab stops in text boxes

OX X 10.11.6 El Capitan

LO 5.3.6.1

Do they work?  I haven't been able to make them work up to this point.  :-(

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2  (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
      and it's gone!"


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remygauthier remygauthier
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Re: Tabs and tab stops in text boxes

Hi,

Fedora 25
LO 5.3.4.2

Tab stops in a text box seem to work only if you set them up via Format
> Paragraph and enter them manually. Entering tab stops via the ruler
bar is useless when it comes to the text boxes. Additionally, if you
setup some tabs in a box (via Format > Paramgraph) and click into the
box, even though they are set, they will not appear on the ruler.

I hope this helps.

Rémy Gauthier.

Le mardi 05 septembre 2017 à 12:58 -0600, Ken Springer a écrit :

> OX X 10.11.6 El Capitan
>
> LO 5.3.6.1
>
> Do they work?  I haven't been able to make them work up to this point.  :-(
>
> --
> Ken
> Mac OS X 10.11.6
> Firefox 53.0.2  (64 bit)
> Thunderbird 52.0
> "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
>       and it's gone!"
>
>
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snowshed snowshed
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Re: Tabs and tab stops in text boxes

Hi, Rémy,

I got back to working with tabs again today.

And you appear to be right, they only work if you manually enter them
into the dialogue box.

Even that doesn't appear to work 100% correctly.  Let's say you have a
text box where the right edge of the box is at 7.50"  Do you think you
can put a right tab at 7.50"?  Nope.  It will wrap to the next line, at
the first tab stop.

You have to enter 7.49".

I did a bit of experimenting in Open Office, current version, appears to
be the same thing.  :-(

This testing was done earlier today, and I found a couple other "little"
things that don't seem quite right either.  I wish I could remember what
they were, but I didn't take the time to write them down.  But I did
find it disappointing.

I so want to use LO, and by extension OO, but LO always leaves me with
the feeling it's "not quite ready for Prime Time".

The little things like this tab issue just leave me so frustrated,
there's no enjoyment for me.     Let's add the unfixed/ignored bugs to
the list.  :-(



On 9/5/17 7:15 PM, Remy Gauthier wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Fedora 25
> LO 5.3.4.2
>
> Tab stops in a text box seem to work only if you set them up via Format
>> Paragraph and enter them manually. Entering tab stops via the ruler
> bar is useless when it comes to the text boxes. Additionally, if you
> setup some tabs in a box (via Format > Paramgraph) and click into the
> box, even though they are set, they will not appear on the ruler.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Rémy Gauthier.
>
> Le mardi 05 septembre 2017 à 12:58 -0600, Ken Springer a écrit :
>> OX X 10.11.6 El Capitan
>>
>> LO 5.3.6.1
>>
>> Do they work?  I haven't been able to make them work up to this point.  :-(

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2  (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
      and it's gone!"


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Regina Henschel Regina Henschel
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Re: Tabs and tab stops in text boxes

Hi Ken,

are you working in Writer? Then I wonder, why you are working with a
text box and not with a frame? A text box is a graphic object with a
restricted edit engine.

Kind regards
Regina

Ken Springer schrieb:

> Hi, Rémy,
>
> I got back to working with tabs again today.
>
> And you appear to be right, they only work if you manually enter them
> into the dialogue box.
>
> Even that doesn't appear to work 100% correctly.  Let's say you have a
> text box where the right edge of the box is at 7.50"  Do you think you
> can put a right tab at 7.50"?  Nope.  It will wrap to the next line, at
> the first tab stop.
>
> You have to enter 7.49".
>
> I did a bit of experimenting in Open Office, current version, appears to
> be the same thing.  :-(
>
> This testing was done earlier today, and I found a couple other "little"
> things that don't seem quite right either.  I wish I could remember what
> they were, but I didn't take the time to write them down.  But I did
> find it disappointing.
>
> I so want to use LO, and by extension OO, but LO always leaves me with
> the feeling it's "not quite ready for Prime Time".
>
> The little things like this tab issue just leave me so frustrated,
> there's no enjoyment for me.     Let's add the unfixed/ignored bugs to
> the list.  :-(
>
>
>
> On 9/5/17 7:15 PM, Remy Gauthier wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Fedora 25
>> LO 5.3.4.2
>>
>> Tab stops in a text box seem to work only if you set them up via Format
>>> Paragraph and enter them manually. Entering tab stops via the ruler
>> bar is useless when it comes to the text boxes. Additionally, if you
>> setup some tabs in a box (via Format > Paramgraph) and click into the
>> box, even though they are set, they will not appear on the ruler.
>>
>> I hope this helps.
>>
>> Rémy Gauthier.
>>
>> Le mardi 05 septembre 2017 à 12:58 -0600, Ken Springer a écrit :
>>> OX X 10.11.6 El Capitan
>>>
>>> LO 5.3.6.1
>>>
>>> Do they work?  I haven't been able to make them work up to this
>>> point.  :-(
>


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snowshed snowshed
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Re: Tabs and tab stops in text boxes

Hi, Regina,

Yes, I'm in Writer.

Why am I using a text box?  Because there is this nice (or not so nice,
depending on the icon set) icon in the toolbar area that says "Insert
Text Box".  There's no indication the icon refers to a graphic object as
opposed to a text object/frame.  Using the word "Text" logically implies
you will be working with text, and not graphics.

Digging a little deeper...

Right click on the frame.  At the bottom of the context box, it says
"Object", not "Frame".  And it really should say "Frame Properties" so
the context box entry accurately describes what the link will take you to.

Occasionally, I have had the same dialog box come up when right clicking
on a text box, but I can't reliably reproduce this.

Create a text frame the width of the page text area.  Height appears to
be unimportant.  Put a border on the bottom of the frame.  (This is for
reference only, so you can see what happens.)  Set the Vertical position
for Bottom to the page text area.

And look at that...  There's a gap between the frame and the page
margin.  :-)

There's a similar problem with an inserted image.  Do similar to the
text frame, but position vertically to the top of the page area.  Add a
caption below the image, and the image position is no longer next to the
top margin of the page.

Now that you have a caption, the image position shifts away from the top
margin.



FWIW, with what I'm currently creating in LO, if I was being paid to
create documents similar to this, I would use, and recommend, a page
layout program.  :-)  But this gets me what I need to know and learn, so
I'm using LO.



On 10/2/17 4:08 AM, Regina Henschel wrote:
> Hi Ken,
>
> are you working in Writer? Then I wonder, why you are working with a
> text box and not with a frame? A text box is a graphic object with a
> restricted edit engine.
>
> Kind regards
> Regina


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2  (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
       and it's gone!"


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Regina Henschel Regina Henschel
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Re: Tabs and tab stops in text boxes

Hi Ken,

Ken Springer schrieb:
> Hi, Regina,
>
> Yes, I'm in Writer.
>
> Why am I using a text box?  Because there is this nice (or not so nice,
> depending on the icon set) icon in the toolbar area that says "Insert
> Text Box".  There's no indication the icon refers to a graphic object as
> opposed to a text object/frame.  Using the word "Text" logically implies
> you will be working with text, and not graphics.

And to make is more confusing, you can add a "text box" to a custom
shape (a star e.g.) in Writer and that is an additional kind of "text box".

>
> Digging a little deeper...
>
> Right click on the frame.  At the bottom of the context box, it says
> "Object", not "Frame".  And it really should say "Frame Properties" so
> the context box entry accurately describes what the link will take you to.

Open the "Styles" pane of the sidebar. The third icon from left selects
the tab "Frame styles". To these styles belong not only Frame, but
Formula, Graphics (that are images not shapes) and OLE too. They are all
kind of "Object". Therefore in some context not the specific but the
more general term "Object" is used.

Shapes do not have styles in Writer but only in Draw and Impress.

>
> Occasionally, I have had the same dialog box come up when right clicking
> on a text box, but I can't reliably reproduce this.
>
> Create a text frame the width of the page text area.  Height appears to
> be unimportant.

You can set a minimal height which expands, if the content grows, or you
can set a fixed height.

   Put a border on the bottom of the frame.  (This is for
> reference only, so you can see what happens.)  Set the Vertical position
> for Bottom to the page text area.
>
> And look at that...  There's a gap between the frame and the page
> margin.  :-)

A frame has an outer margin, a border and an inner padding (similar to
the box model in CSS
https://www.w3.org/TR/2011/REC-CSS2-20110607/box.html#box-dimensions).
Open "Properties" from the context menu (=right click) of the frame. Go
to tab "Wrap". The section "Spacing" contains the values for the outer
margin. Go to tab "Borders", the top right values are for "Padding". [It
will be called Padding in the next LibreOffice version.]

>
> There's a similar problem with an inserted image.  Do similar to the
> text frame, but position vertically to the top of the page area.  Add a
> caption below the image

A caption to the image inserts a frame. The image and the paragraph with
the caption text are now content of the frame.

, and the image position is no longer next to the
> top margin of the page.

You have to adjust margin and padding manually.

>
> Now that you have a caption, the image position shifts away from the top
> margin.
>
>
>
> FWIW, with what I'm currently creating in LO, if I was being paid to
> create documents similar to this, I would use, and recommend, a page
> layout program.  :-)  But this gets me what I need to know and learn, so
> I'm using LO.
>

If you will use LibreOffice like a layout program, you need a lot to
learn, because that is not the common use of Writer. Do not hesitate to
ask. LibreOffice has considerably more possibilities than a simple
office worker would imagined. Describe what you want to get and people
will give you tips how to get it.

Kind regards
Regina


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snowshed snowshed
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Re: Tabs and tab stops in text boxes

On 10/2/17 11:57 AM, Regina Henschel wrote:

> Hi Ken,
>
> Ken Springer schrieb:
>> Hi, Regina,
>>
>> Yes, I'm in Writer.
>>
>> Why am I using a text box?  Because there is this nice (or not so nice,
>> depending on the icon set) icon in the toolbar area that says "Insert
>> Text Box".  There's no indication the icon refers to a graphic object as
>> opposed to a text object/frame.  Using the word "Text" logically implies
>> you will be working with text, and not graphics.
>
> And to make is more confusing, you can add a "text box" to a custom
> shape (a star e.g.) in Writer and that is an additional kind of "text box".

I seem to vaguely remember reading this somewhere.

>>
>> Digging a little deeper...
>>
>> Right click on the frame.  At the bottom of the context box, it says
>> "Object", not "Frame".  And it really should say "Frame Properties" so
>> the context box entry accurately describes what the link will take you to.
>
> Open the "Styles" pane of the sidebar. The third icon from left selects
> the tab "Frame styles". To these styles belong not only Frame, but
> Formula, Graphics (that are images not shapes) and OLE too. They are all
> kind of "Object". Therefore in some context not the specific but the
> more general term "Object" is used.

Lots of options, but how does this solve the issue for the new user, who
would have no clue what "Object" would do, but is likely to have a clue
as to what "Properties" would do?

> Shapes do not have styles in Writer but only in Draw and Impress.
>
>>
>> Occasionally, I have had the same dialog box come up when right clicking
>> on a text box, but I can't reliably reproduce this.
>>
>> Create a text frame the width of the page text area.  Height appears to
>> be unimportant.
>
> You can set a minimal height which expands, if the content grows, or you
> can set a fixed height.

This I knew, but my point here was, that for my example, the height
doesn't matter.

>     Put a border on the bottom of the frame.  (This is for
>> reference only, so you can see what happens.)  Set the Vertical position
>> for Bottom to the page text area.
>>
>> And look at that...  There's a gap between the frame and the page
>> margin.  :-)
>
> A frame has an outer margin, a border and an inner padding (similar to
> the box model in CSS
> https://www.w3.org/TR/2011/REC-CSS2-20110607/box.html#box-dimensions).
> Open "Properties" from the context menu (=right click) of the frame. Go
> to tab "Wrap". The section "Spacing" contains the values for the outer
> margin. Go to tab "Borders", the top right values are for "Padding". [It
> will be called Padding in the next LibreOffice version.]

OK, I wasn't expecting page margins to be included in text wrap.  The
language here is not intuitive.  To me, the words "text wrap" means the
effect applies only to the text.


>> There's a similar problem with an inserted image.  Do similar to the
>> text frame, but position vertically to the top of the page area.  Add a
>> caption below the image
>
> A caption to the image inserts a frame. The image and the paragraph with
> the caption text are now content of the frame.
>
> , and the image position is no longer next to the
>> top margin of the page.
>
> You have to adjust margin and padding manually.

I think, from a user's perspective, especially a new user, once you
position and size a graphic on the page, you expect it to stay there.
Just as if you had glued it to a piece of paper.  You don't expect your
graphic to move because of something else, unless attached to the
paragraph.  But a new user is unlikely to know about anchoring overall.

I often feel as if developers eventually forget what it's like to be a
new user, without all the knowledge they have accumulated over time.
And they simply cannot view their product in this way, and design for
that situation.

>>
>> Now that you have a caption, the image position shifts away from the top
>> margin.
>>
>>
>>
>> FWIW, with what I'm currently creating in LO, if I was being paid to
>> create documents similar to this, I would use, and recommend, a page
>> layout program.  :-)  But this gets me what I need to know and learn, so
>> I'm using LO.
>>
>
> If you will use LibreOffice like a layout program, you need a lot to
> learn, because that is not the common use of Writer. Do not hesitate to
> ask. LibreOffice has considerably more possibilities than a simple
> office worker would imagined. Describe what you want to get and people
> will give you tips how to get it.

I have no plans to use LO or any other word processing program as a page
layout program.  I've found, among the programs I've looked at, that you
should use the program that is designed for the job you want to do.  The
more features you add, the harder it is to learn to use, the programs
slow down in performance, and often the poorer job that is done.



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2  (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
      and it's gone!"


--
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