Terminology modifications to Paste Special format

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htietze htietze
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Terminology modifications to Paste Special format

Hi all,

based on the request at tdf#89453 I made a patch for the formats in the paste special dialog. And since this text is on a very prominent position, I'd like to get more agreement.

The new text should follow the convention <descriptive text> followed by the <short name> in parenthesis. For example, "Rich Text Format (RTF)" is slightly better than before with brackets but still not too informative for ordinary users.

The most important changes as follows with Old -> New + Comments

* Unformatted text -> Plain text (Unformatted)
* Bitmap -> Compatibility-optimized image (Bitmap)
* Drawing format -> %PRODUCTNAME drawing format
* DDE link -> Reference only (DDE link)
* DIF -> Text with standardized formats (DIF)

* GDI metafile -> Screen optimized image (GDI)
  + Samuel: needs perhaps also a dash after "screen"
  + Cor: misleading, it's a vector format, designed for Windows, Windows EMF, that allows for using
    the Windows GDI, Graphical Device Interface?
  + Heiko: maybe "Windows vector format (GDI metafile)"
* Formatted text [RTF] -> Rich text formatting (RTF)
* Formatted text [Richtext] -> Rich text formatting (Richtext)
  + Samuel: original is good enough (for both)
  + Heiko: common but not according the convention
* HTML (HyperText Markup Language) -> Web formatting (HTML)
  + Samuel: I would just call this HTML, that's a common term
  + Heiko: common but not according the convention
* HTML format -> Simple web formatting (HTML)
  + Samuel: What exactly does this do in comparison to the HTML above?
  + Heiko: no idea, the internal format is SIMPLE_HTML (and it's not shown in the usual list)
* PNG Bitmap -> Cross-platform optimized image (PNG)
  + Samuel: This sounds weird. Maybe "Image (PNG)"?
  + Heiko: the cross-platform thing might be interesting relation to Bitmap
* calc8" -> "%PRODUCTNAME %PRODUCTVERSION Spreadsheet (calc8)"
  + Heiko: same for impress8 and draw8; calc6 adjusted too
  + Adolfo: never heard of “calc6” and “calc8”. What do they mean? Could these terms be better?

More details at the patch https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/52336/ and the ticket https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89453 (including screenshots how it may look).

The final decision to push the patch should be made in the design meeting next week.

Cheers,
Heiko

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K-J LibreOffice K-J LibreOffice
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Re: Terminology modifications to Paste Special format

Hi Heiko,

Am 05.04.2018 um 15:22 schrieb Heiko Tietze:
> based on the request at tdf#89453 I made a patch for the formats in the paste special dialog. And since this text is on a very prominent position, I'd like to get more agreement.

Perhaps asking the Documentation team too. And maybe the Project-ML.

[...]

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Regina Henschel Regina Henschel
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Re: Terminology modifications to Paste Special format

In reply to this post by htietze
Hi Heiko,

are the texts the same for all modules? The problem is, that the modules
handle the clipboard content different. For example:
Calc8, in case source is a cell range
target Calc: simple copy of the content, same as Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V
target Writer/Draw/Impress: Generate Calc OLE-object

DDE link, in case source is a cell range
target Calc: generate a matrix formula, if target is in the same
spreadsheet and matrix formula with simple referece ='file:///...', if
target is in a different spreadsheet
target Writer: true DDE connection for Windows, for Linux ?

Heiko Tietze schrieb am 05.04.2018 um 15:22:
> Hi all,
>
> based on the request at tdf#89453 I made a patch for the formats in the paste special dialog. And since this text is on a very prominent position, I'd like to get more agreement.
>
> The new text should follow the convention <descriptive text> followed by the <short name> in parenthesis. For example, "Rich Text Format (RTF)" is slightly better than before with brackets but still not too informative for ordinary users.
>
> The most important changes as follows with Old -> New + Comments
>
> * Unformatted text -> Plain text (Unformatted)
OK, but I do not get why 'Unformatted text' is not clear enough

> * Bitmap -> Compatibility-optimized image (Bitmap)
The important part is, that it is a raster image.
"Compatibility-optimized" says nothing. But I think, the option should
be removed totally or in case it is the only one, named PNG Bitmap or
similar, because it is not inserted as plain Bitmap, but always as png.

> * Drawing format -> %PRODUCTNAME drawing format
Why include Productname? Important is, that it is the same format as
used in module Draw.

> * DDE link -> Reference only (DDE link)
See above.

> * DIF -> Text with standardized formats (DIF)
It is a text encoded spreadsheet, so "text" alone does not reflect the
use case, and it will not be inserted as text. You can use the full name
'Data Interchange Format' and the user needs to look it up, in case he
doesn't know DIF. Or 'value only', because in contrast to "unformatted
text" it does not open the import dialog, and in contrast to RTF or HTML
it does not carry formatting.

>
> * GDI metafile -> Screen optimized image (GDI)
>   + Samuel: needs perhaps also a dash after "screen"
>   + Cor: misleading, it's a vector format, designed for Windows, Windows EMF, that allows for using
>     the Windows GDI, Graphical Device Interface?
>   + Heiko: maybe "Windows vector format (GDI metafile)"
Important is, that it is a vector format. But we should be cautious
about GDI or Windows. If you paste a cell range as 'GDI' you get our
own, propriety svm-format. So I would remove GDI. Suggestion: -> vector
format

> * Formatted text [RTF] -> Rich text formatting (RTF)
> * Formatted text [Richtext] -> Rich text formatting (Richtext)

>   + Samuel: original is good enough (for both)
>   + Heiko: common but not according the convention
Remove the second item. I see no difference in the result. And in
addition in Calc I get the error "The content of the clipboard could not
be pasted.", if I paste a cell range using that option.

> * HTML (HyperText Markup Language) -> Web formatting (HTML)
>   + Samuel: I would just call this HTML, that's a common term
>   + Heiko: common but not according the convention
> * HTML format -> Simple web formatting (HTML)
>   + Samuel: What exactly does this do in comparison to the HTML above?
>   + Heiko: no idea, the internal format is SIMPLE_HTML (and it's not shown in the usual list)
"Web" does not describe the essentials. HTML keeps structure and
formatting as far as possible. Copy&paste a cell range gives a formatted
table, for example. I would remove the second item, I see no difference.

> * PNG Bitmap -> Cross-platform optimized image (PNG)
>   + Samuel: This sounds weird. Maybe "Image (PNG)"?
>   + Heiko: the cross-platform thing might be interesting relation to Bitmap
"Image" as only term is not specific enough because that covers also
svg-graphics. Important is, that it is a raster graphic. In regard to
"bitmap" see above. Suggestion -> Raster image (PNG).

> * calc8" -> "%PRODUCTNAME %PRODUCTVERSION Spreadsheet (calc8)"
>   + Heiko: same for impress8 and draw8; calc6 adjusted too
>   + Adolfo: never heard of “calc6” and “calc8”. What do they mean? Could these terms be better?
I have in clipboard format "Star Embed Source (XML)" alternatively in
the list of paste-able formats. Is it used for ODF from unknown
producer? Or if I copy from Excel, I get e.g. "Biff8(Microsoft Excel
97/2000/XP/2003)" and "Biff5 (Microsoft Excel 5.0/95)" and "Microsoft
Excel Worksheet". Excel puts formats of various versions into clipboard.
Wouldn't it be better to write the type, here 'Spreadsheet', at first
and put the entire format information into the brackets?

What I really miss is the information, whether the content is pasted as
embedded OLE or put as direct content. For example "Microsoft Excel
Worksheet" gives an embedded OLE (Calc!) and with "Biff5" and "Biff8"
the values are inserted into the single cells directly.

>
> More details at the patch https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/52336/ and the ticket https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89453 (including screenshots how it may look).
>
> The final decision to push the patch should be made in the design meeting next week.

Kind regards
Regina

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jonathon-6 jonathon-6
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Re: Terminology modifications to Paste Special format

In reply to this post by htietze
On 04/05/2018 01:22 PM, Heiko Tietze wrote:

> * HTML (HyperText Markup Language) -> Web formatting (HTML)
>   + Samuel: I would just call this HTML, that's a common term
>   + Heiko: common but not according the convention
> * HTML format -> Simple web formatting (HTML)
>   + Samuel: What exactly does this do in comparison to the HTML above?
>   + Heiko: no idea, the internal format is SIMPLE_HTML (and it's not shown in the usual list)

In theory, Simple HTML throws out the SPAN tag, CSS styles, and a couple
of similar things.  In practice, it depends. I've seen one
implementation that threw out everything but a core of around 20 tags.
I've also seen an implementation rewrite CSS styles into every tag, then
throw away the CSS StyleSheet.

Ideally, either online documentation, or a user manual created by the
documentation team would list the tags and attributes used by Simple HTML.

jonathon


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steveedmonds steveedmonds
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Re: Terminology modifications to Paste Special format

In reply to this post by htietze
Hi.
Can only offer an opinion from the other side of the world.
I added some comments below but wonder if the text should hint at when
to use or avoid a format.
I.e. BMP = uncompressed, large files. I don't see PNG in LO 5.4.5. Paste
Special menu.

Either that or use the actual names so the user can easily search the
differences.
Bitmap Image (BMP)
Graphics Device Interface (GDI)
Portable Network Graphic (PNG)

If there is lots of room
Bitmap Image-uncompressed (BMP)
Graphics Device Interface (GDI)
Portable Network Graphic-compressed, lossless (PNG)
HyperText Markup Language-Web format (HTML)

steve

On 06/04/18 01:22, Heiko Tietze wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> based on the request at tdf#89453 I made a patch for the formats in the paste special dialog. And since this text is on a very prominent position, I'd like to get more agreement.
>
> The new text should follow the convention <descriptive text> followed by the <short name> in parenthesis. For example, "Rich Text Format (RTF)" is slightly better than before with brackets but still not too informative for ordinary users.
>
> The most important changes as follows with Old -> New + Comments
>
> * Unformatted text -> Plain text (Unformatted)
> * Bitmap -> Compatibility-optimized image (Bitmap)
> * Drawing format -> %PRODUCTNAME drawing format
> * DDE link -> Reference only (DDE link)
> * DIF -> Text with standardized formats (DIF)
>
> * GDI metafile -> Screen optimized image (GDI)
>    + Samuel: needs perhaps also a dash after "screen"
>    + Cor: misleading, it's a vector format, designed for Windows, Windows EMF, that allows for using
>      the Windows GDI, Graphical Device Interface?
>    + Heiko: maybe "Windows vector format (GDI metafile)"
          + Steve: "Windows vector format" could be confused with WMF.
              "(GDI) enables applications to use graphics and formatted text
                on both the video display and the printer".
               GDI is not just vector and pastes bitmap images.

> * Formatted text [RTF] -> Rich text formatting (RTF)
> * Formatted text [Richtext] -> Rich text formatting (Richtext)
>    + Samuel: original is good enough (for both)
>    + Heiko: common but not according the convention
> * HTML (HyperText Markup Language) -> Web formatting (HTML)
>    + Samuel: I would just call this HTML, that's a common term
>    + Heiko: common but not according the convention
> * HTML format -> Simple web formatting (HTML)
>    + Samuel: What exactly does this do in comparison to the HTML above?
>    + Heiko: no idea, the internal format is SIMPLE_HTML (and it's not shown in the usual list)
> * PNG Bitmap -> Cross-platform optimized image (PNG)
>    + Samuel: This sounds weird. Maybe "Image (PNG)"?
>    + Heiko: the cross-platform thing might be interesting relation to Bitmap
         + Steve: I have found .bmp and .jpeg to be widely cross platform.
            Portable network graphic is not so descriptive.
            Compressed, Lossless and Transparency are distinguishing
features.

> * calc8" -> "%PRODUCTNAME %PRODUCTVERSION Spreadsheet (calc8)"
>    + Heiko: same for impress8 and draw8; calc6 adjusted too
>    + Adolfo: never heard of “calc6” and “calc8”. What do they mean? Could these terms be better?
>
> More details at the patch https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/52336/ and the ticket https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89453 (including screenshots how it may look).
>
> The final decision to push the patch should be made in the design meeting next week.
>
> Cheers,
> Heiko
>


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htietze htietze
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Re: Terminology modifications to Paste Special format

In reply to this post by Regina Henschel
On 05.04.2018 20:31, Regina Henschel wrote:
> are the texts the same for all modules?

I don't know. We have >100 formats and I just tried to copy between Writer, Calc, Impress & Draw.

>> * Unformatted text -> Plain text (Unformatted)
> OK, but I do not get why 'Unformatted text' is not clear enough

Consistency. If you explain one format in detail and omit the short name in the other it adds confusion.
 
>> * Bitmap -> Compatibility-optimized image (Bitmap)
> The important part is, that it is a raster image.
> "Compatibility-optimized" says nothing.

I want to give a clue what advantage BMP would have over PNG or vice versa. The "raster image" thing is a good addition IMHO to compare those formats to the vectors.

>> * Drawing format -> %PRODUCTNAME drawing format
> Why include Productname? Important is, that it is the same format as
> used in module Draw.

The %var is replaced by LibreOffice, of course. "Drawing Format" along with "Raster Image" explains not much. But "LibreOffice Drawing Format" should add trustability.
 
>> * DDE link -> Reference only (DDE link)
> target Calc: generate a matrix formula, if target is in the same
> spreadsheet and matrix formula with simple referece ='file:///...',
> if target is in a different spreadsheet target Writer: true DDE
> connection for Windows, for Linux ?

The "reference" should be more informative than just "DDE link" (or as well the full name).
 
>> * DIF -> Text with standardized formats (DIF)
> It is a text encoded spreadsheet, so "text" alone does not reflect
> the use case, and it will not be inserted as text. You can use the
> full name 'Data Interchange Format' and the user needs to look it
> up, in case he doesn't know DIF. Or 'value only', because in contrast
> to "unformatted text" it does not open the import dialog, and in
> contrast to RTF or HTML it does not carry formatting.

I have no idea what purpose DIF has compared to other formats. And even with the full name I don't get it. But if "standardized format" is not wrong some users may take it for compatibility purpose.

>> * GDI metafile -> Screen optimized image (GDI)
> Important is, that it is a vector format... Suggestion: -> vector
> format

My take: "Screen-optimized vector image (GDI)"

>> * Formatted text [RTF] -> Rich text formatting (RTF) * Formatted
>> text [Richtext] -> Rich text formatting (Richtext)
> Remove the second item. I see no difference in the result.

>> * HTML (HyperText Markup Language) -> Web formatting (HTML) +
> "Web" does not describe the essentials. ... I would remove the second
> item, I see no difference.

Same reason as for Plain text (Unformatted)

>> * PNG Bitmap -> Cross-platform optimized image (PNG)
> "Image" as only term is not specific enough because that covers also
> svg-graphics. Important is, that it is a raster graphic. In regard to
> "bitmap" see above. Suggestion -> Raster image (PNG).

Cross-platform optimized raster image (PNG)

>> * calc8" -> "%PRODUCTNAME %PRODUCTVERSION Spreadsheet (calc8)" +
> I have in clipboard format "Star Embed Source (XML)" alternatively
> in the list of paste-able formats. Is it used for ODF from unknown
> producer? Or if I copy from Excel, I get e.g. "Biff8(Microsoft Excel
> 97/2000/XP/2003)" and "Biff5 (Microsoft Excel 5.0/95)" and "Microsoft
> Excel Worksheet". Excel puts formats of various versions into
> clipboard. Wouldn't it be better to write the type, here
> 'Spreadsheet', at first and put the entire format information into
> the brackets?

Changed also BIFF8 so that the full name comes first. Never seen "Star Embed Source (XML)" or BIFF but always calc8, which was the original reason for the ticket.
 
Thanks for commenting, let's if someone else follows my position. Otherwise it's too much fuss and I will only add the localizable name for calc8 likewise it's define for calc6.

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htietze htietze
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Re: Terminology modifications to Paste Special format

In reply to this post by steveedmonds
Okay, so let's go with the simple solution of just the format name without further explanation.

* Unformatted text -> Unformatted text
* Bitmap -> Bitmap Image (BMP)
* Drawing format -> %PRODUCTNAME drawing format
* DDE link -> Dynamic Data Exchange (DDE link)
* DIF -> Data Interchange Format (DIF)
* GDI metafile -> Graphics Device Interface (GDI)
* Formatted text [RTF] -> Rich text formatting (RTF)
* Formatted text [Richtext] -> Rich text formatting (Richtext)
* HTML (HyperText Markup Language) -> HyperText Markup Language (HTML)
* HTML format -> Stripped HyperText Markup Language (Simple HTM) (Or "Stripped HTML" if this string is too long)
* PNG Bitmap -> Portable Network Graphic (PNG)
* calc8" -> "%PRODUCTNAME %PRODUCTVERSION Spreadsheet" (without Calc8 short name)


On 05.04.2018 23:14, Steve Edmonds wrote:

> Hi.
> Can only offer an opinion from the other side of the world.
> I added some comments below but wonder if the text should hint at when to use or avoid a format.
> I.e. BMP = uncompressed, large files. I don't see PNG in LO 5.4.5. Paste Special menu.
>
> Either that or use the actual names so the user can easily search the differences.
> Bitmap Image (BMP)
> Graphics Device Interface (GDI)
> Portable Network Graphic (PNG)
>
> If there is lots of room
> Bitmap Image-uncompressed (BMP)
> Graphics Device Interface (GDI)
> Portable Network Graphic-compressed, lossless (PNG)
> HyperText Markup Language-Web format (HTML)
>
> steve
>
> On 06/04/18 01:22, Heiko Tietze wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> based on the request at tdf#89453 I made a patch for the formats in the paste special dialog. And since this text is on a very prominent position, I'd like to get more agreement.
>>
>> The new text should follow the convention <descriptive text> followed by the <short name> in parenthesis. For example, "Rich Text Format (RTF)" is slightly better than before with brackets but still not too informative for ordinary users.
>>
>> The most important changes as follows with Old -> New + Comments
>>
>> * Unformatted text -> Plain text (Unformatted)
>> * Bitmap -> Compatibility-optimized image (Bitmap)
>> * Drawing format -> %PRODUCTNAME drawing format
>> * DDE link -> Reference only (DDE link)
>> * DIF -> Text with standardized formats (DIF)
>>
>> * GDI metafile -> Screen optimized image (GDI)
>>    + Samuel: needs perhaps also a dash after "screen"
>>    + Cor: misleading, it's a vector format, designed for Windows, Windows EMF, that allows for using
>>      the Windows GDI, Graphical Device Interface?
>>    + Heiko: maybe "Windows vector format (GDI metafile)"
>          + Steve: "Windows vector format" could be confused with WMF.
>              "(GDI) enables applications to use graphics and formatted text
>                on both the video display and the printer".
>               GDI is not just vector and pastes bitmap images.
>> * Formatted text [RTF] -> Rich text formatting (RTF)
>> * Formatted text [Richtext] -> Rich text formatting (Richtext)
>>    + Samuel: original is good enough (for both)
>>    + Heiko: common but not according the convention
>> * HTML (HyperText Markup Language) -> Web formatting (HTML)
>>    + Samuel: I would just call this HTML, that's a common term
>>    + Heiko: common but not according the convention
>> * HTML format -> Simple web formatting (HTML)
>>    + Samuel: What exactly does this do in comparison to the HTML above?
>>    + Heiko: no idea, the internal format is SIMPLE_HTML (and it's not shown in the usual list)
>> * PNG Bitmap -> Cross-platform optimized image (PNG)
>>    + Samuel: This sounds weird. Maybe "Image (PNG)"?
>>    + Heiko: the cross-platform thing might be interesting relation to Bitmap
>         + Steve: I have found .bmp and .jpeg to be widely cross platform.
>            Portable network graphic is not so descriptive.
>            Compressed, Lossless and Transparency are distinguishing features.
>> * calc8" -> "%PRODUCTNAME %PRODUCTVERSION Spreadsheet (calc8)"
>>    + Heiko: same for impress8 and draw8; calc6 adjusted too
>>    + Adolfo: never heard of “calc6” and “calc8”. What do they mean? Could these terms be better?
>>
>> More details at the patch https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/52336/ and the ticket https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89453 (including screenshots how it may look).
>>
>> The final decision to push the patch should be made in the design meeting next week.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Heiko
>>
>
>

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UX designer
Tel. +49 (0)179/1268509

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sophi sophi
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Re: Terminology modifications to Paste Special format

Hi Heiko,

Le 07/04/2018 à 11:18, Heiko Tietze a écrit :

> Okay, so let's go with the simple solution of just the format name without further explanation.
>
> * Unformatted text -> Unformatted text
> * Bitmap -> Bitmap Image (BMP)
> * Drawing format -> %PRODUCTNAME drawing format
> * DDE link -> Dynamic Data Exchange (DDE link)
> * DIF -> Data Interchange Format (DIF)
> * GDI metafile -> Graphics Device Interface (GDI)
> * Formatted text [RTF] -> Rich text formatting (RTF)
> * Formatted text [Richtext] -> Rich text formatting (Richtext)
> * HTML (HyperText Markup Language) -> HyperText Markup Language (HTML)
> * HTML format -> Stripped HyperText Markup Language (Simple HTM) (Or "Stripped HTML" if this string is too long)

yes, the string will be too long, as HTML is a know acronym, I think
"Stripped HTML is ok.

> * PNG Bitmap -> Portable Network Graphic (PNG)
> * calc8" -> "%PRODUCTNAME %PRODUCTVERSION Spreadsheet" (without Calc8 short name)

Thanks for this,
Cheers
Sophie

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