The future of design suggestions

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Björn Balazs Björn Balazs
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The future of design suggestions

Hi all,

I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into
the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs to
look linke this...".

This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on that),
we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the
developers and the companies paying them.

We will obviously not be able to do this by starting the same discussion all
over and over again (e.g. Ribbon discussion). To convince the sponsors of new
software code, we should never argue about personal opinions. A conflict in
personal opinion is not solvable. And developers and managers of sponsoring
companies willl have personal opinions as well. These kind of conflicts will
predicitably end with those parts of the suggestions beeing realised that the
sponsors like. This again will not satisfy anyone in the end (not us, not the
users and not the sponsors).

So, how can we make this more productive?

Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not
comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision with
eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.

We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing
these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users
decide about what they like.

With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors
to go into a certain direction.

So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy
to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?

Best,
Björn

--
Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org
Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com


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Budislav Stepanov Budislav Stepanov
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Re: The future of design suggestions

I fully agree with the gallery idea, this is the best solution, because with
that actually can see what is best, but as it is debated whether Microsoft
is losing customers, and he knows how they will be returned because there
designers decide how the program looks, rather than developers, who are paid
to do as they are told, they do not care if toolbar does not fit the
windows, MS is extra just because, and here the main problem is just that,
so much debate about whether this bar that stands out from the system.
And to ask customers taht say what it is better,  They do not care if ribbon
deviate from the system, it is important that the program is good and
special for us because nobody will be offended if on the new version ubuntu
found a single program that sow their face with opportunities. After all,
all is a habit.

I fully agree with the gallery idea.

2011/6/20 Björn Balazs <[hidden email]>

> Hi all,
>
> I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into
> the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs
> to
> look linke this...".
>
> This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
> convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on
> that),
> we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the
> developers and the companies paying them.
>
> We will obviously not be able to do this by starting the same discussion
> all
> over and over again (e.g. Ribbon discussion). To convince the sponsors of
> new
> software code, we should never argue about personal opinions. A conflict in
> personal opinion is not solvable. And developers and managers of sponsoring
> companies willl have personal opinions as well. These kind of conflicts
> will
> predicitably end with those parts of the suggestions beeing realised that
> the
> sponsors like. This again will not satisfy anyone in the end (not us, not
> the
> users and not the sponsors).
>
> So, how can we make this more productive?
>
> Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not
> comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision
> with
> eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.
>
> We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing
> these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users
> decide about what they like.
>
> With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors
> to go into a certain direction.
>
> So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy
> to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?
>
> Best,
> Björn
>
> --
> Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org
> Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com
>
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
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> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>
>


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Budislav

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Scott Pledger Scott Pledger
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Re: The future of design suggestions

+1 on the gallery concept.

I am more than willing to set it up and maintain it with the different
UI reworks posted here and I think we can even come up with some
templates to add it to the wiki's whiteboards.  What do you think?

> I fully agree with the gallery idea, this is the best solution, because with
> that actually can see what is best, but as it is debated whether Microsoft
> is losing customers, and he knows how they will be returned because there
> designers decide how the program looks, rather than developers, who are paid
> to do as they are told, they do not care if toolbar does not fit the
> windows, MS is extra just because, and here the main problem is just that,
> so much debate about whether this bar that stands out from the system.
> And to ask customers taht say what it is better,  They do not care if ribbon
> deviate from the system, it is important that the program is good and
> special for us because nobody will be offended if on the new version ubuntu
> found a single program that sow their face with opportunities. After all,
> all is a habit.
>
> I fully agree with the gallery idea.
>
> 2011/6/20 Björn Balazs<[hidden email]>
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into
>> the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs
>> to
>> look linke this...".
>>
>> This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
>> convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on
>> that),
>> we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the
>> developers and the companies paying them.
>>
>> We will obviously not be able to do this by starting the same discussion
>> all
>> over and over again (e.g. Ribbon discussion). To convince the sponsors of
>> new
>> software code, we should never argue about personal opinions. A conflict in
>> personal opinion is not solvable. And developers and managers of sponsoring
>> companies willl have personal opinions as well. These kind of conflicts
>> will
>> predicitably end with those parts of the suggestions beeing realised that
>> the
>> sponsors like. This again will not satisfy anyone in the end (not us, not
>> the
>> users and not the sponsors).
>>
>> So, how can we make this more productive?
>>
>> Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not
>> comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision
>> with
>> eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.
>>
>> We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing
>> these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users
>> decide about what they like.
>>
>> With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors
>> to go into a certain direction.
>>
>> So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy
>> to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?
>>
>> Best,
>> Björn
>>
>> --
>> Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org
>> Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com
>>
>>
>> --
>> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
>> deleted
>>
>>
>


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Sean White Sean White
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Re: The future of design suggestions

I am also +1ing the gallery idea, but eill we host it on the wiki or on a
different site??

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Scott Pledger
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> +1 on the gallery concept.
>
> I am more than willing to set it up and maintain it with the different UI
> reworks posted here and I think we can even come up with some templates to
> add it to the wiki's whiteboards.  What do you think?
>
>  I fully agree with the gallery idea, this is the best solution, because
>> with
>> that actually can see what is best, but as it is debated whether Microsoft
>> is losing customers, and he knows how they will be returned because there
>> designers decide how the program looks, rather than developers, who are
>> paid
>> to do as they are told, they do not care if toolbar does not fit the
>> windows, MS is extra just because, and here the main problem is just that,
>> so much debate about whether this bar that stands out from the system.
>> And to ask customers taht say what it is better,  They do not care if
>> ribbon
>> deviate from the system, it is important that the program is good and
>> special for us because nobody will be offended if on the new version
>> ubuntu
>> found a single program that sow their face with opportunities. After all,
>> all is a habit.
>>
>> I fully agree with the gallery idea.
>>
>> 2011/6/20 Björn Balazs<[hidden email]>
>>
>>  Hi all,
>>>
>>> I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going
>>> into
>>> the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs
>>> to
>>> look linke this...".
>>>
>>> This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
>>> convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on
>>> that),
>>> we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it -
>>> the
>>> developers and the companies paying them.
>>>
>>> We will obviously not be able to do this by starting the same discussion
>>> all
>>> over and over again (e.g. Ribbon discussion). To convince the sponsors of
>>> new
>>> software code, we should never argue about personal opinions. A conflict
>>> in
>>> personal opinion is not solvable. And developers and managers of
>>> sponsoring
>>> companies willl have personal opinions as well. These kind of conflicts
>>> will
>>> predicitably end with those parts of the suggestions beeing realised that
>>> the
>>> sponsors like. This again will not satisfy anyone in the end (not us, not
>>> the
>>> users and not the sponsors).
>>>
>>> So, how can we make this more productive?
>>>
>>> Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to
>>> not
>>> comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision
>>> with
>>> eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.
>>>
>>> We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on.
>>> Knowing
>>> these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users
>>> decide about what they like.
>>>
>>> With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the
>>> code-sponsors
>>> to go into a certain direction.
>>>
>>> So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas.
>>> Easy
>>> to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Björn
>>>
>>> --
>>> Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org
>>> Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-**
>>> Usability-Labs.com <http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@global.**libreoffice.org<design%[hidden email]>
>>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/**
>>> Netiquette <http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette>
>>> List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/design/<http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/>
>>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
>>> deleted
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> --
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> deleted
>
>


--
Sean White,
I've Seen the Cow Level

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jlopez777 jlopez777
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Re: The future of design suggestions

we can host it here

www.libreofficedesign.weebly.com

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Sean White <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am also +1ing the gallery idea, but eill we host it on the wiki or on a
> different site??
>
>
we can host it here

www.libreofficedesign.weebly.com



> On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Scott Pledger
> <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
> > +1 on the gallery concept.
> >
> > I am more than willing to set it up and maintain it with the different UI
> > reworks posted here and I think we can even come up with some templates
> to
> > add it to the wiki's whiteboards.  What do you think?
> >
> >  I fully agree with the gallery idea, this is the best solution, because
> >> with
> >> that actually can see what is best, but as it is debated whether
> Microsoft
> >> is losing customers, and he knows how they will be returned because
> there
> >> designers decide how the program looks, rather than developers, who are
> >> paid
> >> to do as they are told, they do not care if toolbar does not fit the
> >> windows, MS is extra just because, and here the main problem is just
> that,
> >> so much debate about whether this bar that stands out from the system.
> >> And to ask customers taht say what it is better,  They do not care if
> >> ribbon
> >> deviate from the system, it is important that the program is good and
> >> special for us because nobody will be offended if on the new version
> >> ubuntu
> >> found a single program that sow their face with opportunities. After
> all,
> >> all is a habit.
> >>
> >> I fully agree with the gallery idea.
> >>
> >> 2011/6/20 Björn Balazs<[hidden email]>
> >>
> >>  Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going
> >>> into
> >>> the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it
> needs
> >>> to
> >>> look linke this...".
> >>>
> >>> This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
> >>> convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on
> >>> that),
> >>> we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it -
> >>> the
> >>> developers and the companies paying them.
> >>>
> >>> We will obviously not be able to do this by starting the same
> discussion
> >>> all
> >>> over and over again (e.g. Ribbon discussion). To convince the sponsors
> of
> >>> new
> >>> software code, we should never argue about personal opinions. A
> conflict
> >>> in
> >>> personal opinion is not solvable. And developers and managers of
> >>> sponsoring
> >>> companies willl have personal opinions as well. These kind of conflicts
> >>> will
> >>> predicitably end with those parts of the suggestions beeing realised
> that
> >>> the
> >>> sponsors like. This again will not satisfy anyone in the end (not us,
> not
> >>> the
> >>> users and not the sponsors).
> >>>
> >>> So, how can we make this more productive?
> >>>
> >>> Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to
> >>> not
> >>> comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision
> >>> with
> >>> eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.
> >>>
> >>> We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on.
> >>> Knowing
> >>> these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the
> users
> >>> decide about what they like.
> >>>
> >>> With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the
> >>> code-sponsors
> >>> to go into a certain direction.
> >>>
> >>> So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas.
> >>> Easy
> >>> to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Björn
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org
> >>> Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-**
> >>> Usability-Labs.com <http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@global.**
> libreoffice.org<design%[hidden email]>
> >>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/**
> >>> Netiquette <http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette>
> >>> List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/design/<
> http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/>
> >>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> >>> deleted
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@global.**libreoffice.org
> <design%[hidden email]>
> > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/**
> > Netiquette <http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette>
> > List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/design/<
> http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/>
> > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> > deleted
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Sean White,
> I've Seen the Cow Level
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
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> deleted
>
>


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Joed Lopez

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bedipp bedipp
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Re: The future of design suggestions

Hi Joed, all

jlopez777 schrieb:
> we can host it here
>
> www.libreofficedesign.weebly.com

We should try to keep as many resources as possible in the
LibreOffice/TDF infrastructure.

Individual contributors can't assure future commitment and they should
not feel forced to keep their resources open for the community when they
had to leave our team for one reason or another.

Backups and archives are another point why I strongly prefer our wiki
for tasks manageable there. If we lack additional resources, we might
ask for hosting them on the TDF infrastructure.

But galleries are able to be presented on the wiki, so I don't see any
need for external tools.

With our Visual Elements page
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Visual_Elements
we already use images linked to other wiki pages than the image files,
so this might be a starting point...

Best regards

Bernhard

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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: The future of design suggestions

Hi back,
> We should try to keep as many resources as possible in the LibreOffice/TDF
> infrastructure.

Yes, however, ADDITIONALLY it might be helpful to have a Flickr group
that would be linked to from the Wiki, so everyone with at least a
Yahoo account could post their ideas instantly.

> With our Visual Elements page
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Visual_Elements
> we already use images linked to other wiki pages than the image files, so
> this might be a starting point...

However, the new page should probably be sub-page of the Whiteboard page.

Astron.

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Björn Balazs Björn Balazs
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Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

In reply to this post by bedipp
Am Montag, 20. Juni 2011, 22:43:26 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
> We should try to keep as many resources as possible in the
> LibreOffice/TDF infrastructure.
[...]
> With our Visual Elements page
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Visual_Elements
> we already use images linked to other wiki pages than the image files,
> so this might be a starting point...

+1

Best,
Björn

--
Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org
Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com


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Slartibartfast Slartibartfast
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Re: The future of design suggestions

In reply to this post by Björn Balazs
Hi Bjorn,

I do share your concerns, but would like to present a somewhat even more radical position.

As I understand it, you advocate for an evidence-based decision-making for design questions.
Anyone can come up with his/her design alternative.
Eventually all the alternatives will be tested by actual users, in one survey or another, and may the most popular alternative win!

I would like to ask why not have a preliminary set of surveys, to identify the needs and likes of actual users and of potential users,
and then come up with design alternatives that address these likes and needs.

What do you say?

dror
bedipp bedipp
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Re: The future of design suggestions

In reply to this post by Björn Balazs
Hi Björn, all

Björn Balazs schrieb:
> Hi all,
>
> I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into
> the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs to
> look linke this...".

For me they show the high interest of our team members in the UI design
area. But you're totally right: We need to integrate the different
proposals in general directions for UI improvements.
>
> This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
> convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on that),
> we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the
> developers and the companies paying them.

Even if a large group of developers are paid by companies, there is
another group coding on their own.

What we need are at least a few developers interested in UI design. If
we can convince them, our ideas will become code and finally find their
way into the product.

But if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the
needs our users to the entire community, this would get more developers
interested and involved...
>
> [... we should never argue about personal opinions ...]
>
> So, how can we make this more productive?
>
> Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not
> comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision with
> eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.

A gallery is great - but I'd rather think of a gallery of single UI
improvements (with visualizations from different mockups) than of a
gallery of the different mockups.

If several mockups contain sidepanes, similar context menus or context
sensitive tools, these should be combined as features, based on user
data (already existing or new to be reached for) and expert statements,
decided on their positive/negative impacts and recommended for
implementation based on a specification containing all the necessary
information for the developers.
>
> We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing
> these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users
> decide about what they like.

Of course user feedback is the most important quality measurement for UI
modifications. But based on the user's likings it stays to us to decide
which feature should be implemented in which way:

There are more than design aspects to consider (marketing, present user
base, documentation, coding effort, interdependency with other areas of
the product ...), users can't have in mind.
>
> With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors
> to go into a certain direction.

That's true - real user data are a very good argument to convince
marketing and development ...
>
> So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy
> to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?

+1

I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups
(perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through
this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI
elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept.

I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better.

While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add
more fields than just one caption below each image.

With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages
to get the necessary information.

A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow
to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each
specific design element (if existing) and many more information.

On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery.

Best regards

Bernhard

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steveedmonds steveedmonds
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Re: The future of design suggestions

Hi All.

On 22/06/11 9:09 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:

> Hi Björn, all
>
> Björn Balazs schrieb:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going
>> into
>> the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it
>> needs to
>> look linke this...".
>
> For me they show the high interest of our team members in the UI
> design area. But you're totally right: We need to integrate the
> different proposals in general directions for UI improvements.
>>
>> This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
>> convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on
>> that),
>> we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it
>> - the
>> developers and the companies paying them.
>
> Even if a large group of developers are paid by companies, there is
> another group coding on their own.
>
> What we need are at least a few developers interested in UI design. If
> we can convince them, our ideas will become code and finally find
> their way into the product.
>
> But if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the
> needs our users to the entire community, this would get more
> developers interested and involved...
>>
>> [... we should never argue about personal opinions ...]
>>
>> So, how can we make this more productive?
>>
>> Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way
>> to not
>> comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy
>> comparision with
>> eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.
>
> A gallery is great - but I'd rather think of a gallery of single UI
> improvements (with visualizations from different mockups) than of a
> gallery of the different mockups.
>
> If several mockups contain sidepanes, similar context menus or context
> sensitive tools, these should be combined as features, based on user
> data (already existing or new to be reached for) and expert
> statements, decided on their positive/negative impacts and recommended
> for implementation based on a specification containing all the
> necessary information for the developers.
>>
>> We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on.
>> Knowing
>> these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users
>> decide about what they like.
>
> Of course user feedback is the most important quality measurement for
> UI modifications. But based on the user's likings it stays to us to
> decide which feature should be implemented in which way:
>
> There are more than design aspects to consider (marketing, present
> user base, documentation, coding effort, interdependency with other
> areas of the product ...), users can't have in mind.
>>
>> With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the
>> code-sponsors
>> to go into a certain direction.
>
> That's true - real user data are a very good argument to convince
> marketing and development ...
>>
>> So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface
>> ideas. Easy
>> to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?
>
> +1
>
> I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups
> (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go
> through this gallery and collect the single features for another
> gallery of UI elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our
> overall concept.
>
> I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better.
>
> While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to
> add more fields than just one caption below each image.
>
> With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki
> pages to get the necessary information.
>
> A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would
> allow to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for
> each specific design element (if existing) and many more information.
>
> On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery.
>
> Best regards
>
> Bernhard
>
I also think it is important to be able to provide the whole package,
complete solution, (all details) in an overall structured way and not
haphazard. For a developer to pick it up and commit many hours all
questions need to be answered in a specification. i.e. how will every
menu in every LO component function. Discussion here is centered on
writer and trying to conserve height but calc is mentioned as preferring
wide to tall space.
May be a framework can be created, like a table, with the various LO
components (writer, calc, etc.) across and the various UI elements down.
When all the cells are filled and how the elements work, inter-reaction
is seen and agreement is made then developers can be considered.
The developers may then need to refine this due to code or function
needs (you can't do that because... but may be like this)
Then when all in agreement the coding can be implemented.
steve

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Re: The future of design suggestions

In reply to this post by bedipp
Hi all,
On Tue, 2011-06-21 at 23:09 +0200, Bernhard Dippold wrote:

> Hi Björn, all
>
> Björn Balazs schrieb:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into
> > the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs to
> > look linke this...".
>
> For me they show the high interest of our team members in the UI design
> area. But you're totally right: We need to integrate the different
> proposals in general directions for UI improvements.
> >
> > This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
> > convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on that),
> > we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the
> > developers and the companies paying them.
>
> Even if a large group of developers are paid by companies, there is
> another group coding on their own.
>
> What we need are at least a few developers interested in UI design. If
> we can convince them, our ideas will become code and finally find their
> way into the product.
>
> But if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the
> needs our users to the entire community, this would get more developers
> interested and involved...
> >
> > [... we should never argue about personal opinions ...]
> >
> > So, how can we make this more productive?
> >
> > Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not
> > comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision with
> > eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.
>
> A gallery is great - but I'd rather think of a gallery of single UI
> improvements (with visualizations from different mockups) than of a
> gallery of the different mockups.
>
> If several mockups contain sidepanes, similar context menus or context
> sensitive tools, these should be combined as features, based on user
> data (already existing or new to be reached for) and expert statements,
> decided on their positive/negative impacts and recommended for
> implementation based on a specification containing all the necessary
> information for the developers.
> >
> > We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing
> > these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users
> > decide about what they like.
>
> Of course user feedback is the most important quality measurement for UI
> modifications. But based on the user's likings it stays to us to decide
> which feature should be implemented in which way:
>
> There are more than design aspects to consider (marketing, present user
> base, documentation, coding effort, interdependency with other areas of
> the product ...), users can't have in mind.
> >
> > With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors
> > to go into a certain direction.
>
> That's true - real user data are a very good argument to convince
> marketing and development ...
> >
> > So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy
> > to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?
>
> +1
>
> I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups
> (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through
> this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI
> elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept.
>
> I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better.
>
> While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add
> more fields than just one caption below each image.
>
> With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages
> to get the necessary information.
>
> A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow
> to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each
> specific design element (if existing) and many more information.
>
> On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery.
>
> Best regards
>
> Bernhard
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
>

Could we circulate the link to other LO lists and possibly post it on
the LO site for users to access? I was thinking of broadening our answer
base.

I think you will have roughly three groups: those who prefer an improved
version of the current UI but with limited graphical changes; those who
prefer a more distinctive UI (there may be a few major groups here); and
finally those who are indifferent about the exact look as long as it
meets certain goals such being customizable, well organized.

Personally, I am most in the last group of being more interested in
meeting certain goals rather than the graphical layout itself. I would
prefer to let the layout be determined by specific design goals such as
user customization, being well organized. I do not object to a new
interface if it will meet these and similar goals nor do object to
keeping the current interface if these goals can be enhanced.

For Linux users, you are probably familiar the debate about the Unity
GUI (basically a customizable dock with indirect access to all the OS
features) versus the more traditional GUI interfaces that are similar to
Mac OS and Windows. I actually found a Linux version that combined
elements of both the traditional interface and customizable docks, a
middle of the road solution. Ironically, this version developed these
ideas based on user comments from installing Linux on user boxes. The
docks allow me to have access to the programs or folders I want quick
access to while the traditional elements allow me to use access
everything else the way I am have doing for years.

I think we probably can combine the best features of the traditional UI
and newer ideas into a winning UI that the vast majority of users will
like. The key is the proper balance to obtain the most effective
interface.

--
Jay Lozier
[hidden email]

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Björn Balazs Björn Balazs
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Re: The future of design suggestions

In reply to this post by Slartibartfast
Hi dror,

Am Dienstag, 21. Juni 2011, 13:40:52 schrieb drorlev:

> Hi Bjorn,
>
> I do share your concerns, but would like to present a somewhat even more
> radical position.
>
> As I understand it, you advocate for an evidence-based decision-making for
> design questions.
> Anyone can come up with his/her design alternative.
> Eventually all the alternatives will be tested by actual users, in one
> survey or another, and may the most popular alternative win!
>
> I would like to ask why not have a preliminary set of surveys, to identify
> the needs and likes of actual users and of potential users,
> and then come up with design alternatives that address these likes and
> needs.
>
> What do you say?

This are two different topics, which both should be adressed:

1. People do obviously send in Design suggestions. We need a way to handle
them in a sustainable way. To me this would be at the moment not so much
discussing each suggestion, but to collect them to have a pool of ideas once
we can actually start a phase of redesigning the interface. Also, putting
them into one spot, should force users to provide them under a CC licence
(aor alike), so we are actually allowed to use the provided material and
ideas.

2. We have started the process of digging deep into user research, which
needs to adress needs and likes as well as demegraphics. At the moment we are
working on the toolchain and on building up a panel of users.

Best,
Björn


>
> dror
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/The-future-of-design-suggestions-tp308
> 5560p3092867.html Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

--
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Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com


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Björn Balazs Björn Balazs
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Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

In reply to this post by bedipp
Hi Bernhard, all,

Am Dienstag, 21. Juni 2011, 23:09:33 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
[...]

> > This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
> > convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on
> > that), we will need to convince the people actually doing (and
> > financing) it - the developers and the companies paying them.
>
> Even if a large group of developers are paid by companies, there is
> another group coding on their own.
>
> What we need are at least a few developers interested in UI design. If
> we can convince them, our ideas will become code and finally find their
> way into the product.
>
> But if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the
> needs our users to the entire community, this would get more developers
> interested and involved...

I am argueing towards a single position we, the UI team needs to come up
with. This position needs to shared by the whole team, paid and voluntary
developers!

[...]

> I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups
> (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through
> this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI
> elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept.
>
> I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better.
>
> While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add
> more fields than just one caption below each image.
>
> With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages
> to get the necessary information.
>
> A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow
> to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each
> specific design element (if existing) and many more information.
>
> On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery.
>

Could you take care of this? Important to me seems to be that commitments are
licenced correctly and allow to show mocks, designs and even prototypes at
the same time. Don't know which technical solution is best for this...

Best,
Björn

--
Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org
Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com


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Björn Balazs Björn Balazs
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Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions

In reply to this post by steveedmonds
Hi Steve,

Am Mittwoch, 22. Juni 2011, 09:22:33 schrieb Steve Edmonds:
[...]

> I also think it is important to be able to provide the whole package,
> complete solution, (all details) in an overall structured way and not
> haphazard. For a developer to pick it up and commit many hours all
> questions need to be answered in a specification. i.e. how will every
> menu in every LO component function. Discussion here is centered on
> writer and trying to conserve height but calc is mentioned as preferring
> wide to tall space.
> May be a framework can be created, like a table, with the various LO
> components (writer, calc, etc.) across and the various UI elements down.
> When all the cells are filled and how the elements work, inter-reaction
> is seen and agreement is made then developers can be considered.
> The developers may then need to refine this due to code or function
> needs (you can't do that because... but may be like this)
> Then when all in agreement the coding can be implemented.

Please do not mix up two distinct steps.

1. We need to collect the ideas. This is what this thread is about (as I
understand it)

2. Extract the ideas behind the ideas and create something developers can
work with. We have not even adressed this topic, as no major UI changes will
take place at the moment, because developers are on totally different tasks
(refactoring code to be able to change the UI in future).

Let us talk about step 2 once we have a working solution for step 1 - or
noone will be able to follow the discussions anymore... :)

Best,
Björn


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bedipp bedipp
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Re:=?UTF-8?B?IFs=?=libreoffice-design=?UTF-8?B?XSA=?=The=?UTF-8?B?IA==?=future=?UTF-8?B?IA==?=of=?UTF-8?B?IA==?=design=?UTF-8?B?IA==?=suggestions

In reply to this post by Björn Balazs
Hi Björn, all

Björn Balasz wrote:

> Hi Bernhard, all,
>
> Am Dienstag, 21. Juni 2011, 23:09:33 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
> [...]
> > > This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
> > > convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on
> > > that), we will need to convince the people actually doing (and
> > > financing) it - the developers and the companies paying them.
> >
> > [...]  if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the
> > needs our users to the entire community, this would get more developers
> > interested and involved...
>
> I am argueing towards a single position we, the UI team needs to come up
> with. This position needs to shared by the whole team, paid and voluntary
> developers!

In a community of volunteers shared positions by all team members are hard
to establish, especially if you try to integrate designers and developers in one
team.

But your right: This needs to be our goal.

And this will only be able to reached by clear (user) data and convincing
scepticists by good and valid arguments.

>
> [...]
>
> > I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups
> > (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through
> > this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI
> > elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept.
> >
> > I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better.
> >
> > While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add
> > more fields than just one caption below each image.
> >
> > With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages
> > to get the necessary information.
> >
> > A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow
> > to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each
> > specific design element (if existing) and many more information.
> >
> > On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery.
> >
>
> Could you take care of this? Important to me seems to be that commitments are
> licenced correctly and allow to show mocks, designs and even prototypes at
> the same time. Don't know which technical solution is best for this...

I can try to - but I'd really appreciate someone else to step in (too).

My time is limited, but that's probably the same for each of our tema members.

Best regards

Bernhard




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steveedmonds steveedmonds
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Re: The future of design suggestions

In reply to this post by Jay Lozier
Hi Planas.

On 22/06/11 10:05 AM, planas wrote:

> Hi all,
> On Tue, 2011-06-21 at 23:09 +0200, Bernhard Dippold wrote:
>
>> Hi Björn, all
>>
>> Björn Balazs schrieb:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into
>>> the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs to
>>> look linke this...".
>> For me they show the high interest of our team members in the UI design
>> area. But you're totally right: We need to integrate the different
>> proposals in general directions for UI improvements.
>>> This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
>>> convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on that),
>>> we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the
>>> developers and the companies paying them.
>> Even if a large group of developers are paid by companies, there is
>> another group coding on their own.
>>
>> What we need are at least a few developers interested in UI design. If
>> we can convince them, our ideas will become code and finally find their
>> way into the product.
>>
>> But if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the
>> needs our users to the entire community, this would get more developers
>> interested and involved...
>>> [... we should never argue about personal opinions ...]
>>>
>>> So, how can we make this more productive?
>>>
>>> Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not
>>> comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision with
>>> eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.
>> A gallery is great - but I'd rather think of a gallery of single UI
>> improvements (with visualizations from different mockups) than of a
>> gallery of the different mockups.
>>
>> If several mockups contain sidepanes, similar context menus or context
>> sensitive tools, these should be combined as features, based on user
>> data (already existing or new to be reached for) and expert statements,
>> decided on their positive/negative impacts and recommended for
>> implementation based on a specification containing all the necessary
>> information for the developers.
>>> We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing
>>> these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users
>>> decide about what they like.
>> Of course user feedback is the most important quality measurement for UI
>> modifications. But based on the user's likings it stays to us to decide
>> which feature should be implemented in which way:
>>
>> There are more than design aspects to consider (marketing, present user
>> base, documentation, coding effort, interdependency with other areas of
>> the product ...), users can't have in mind.
>>> With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors
>>> to go into a certain direction.
>> That's true - real user data are a very good argument to convince
>> marketing and development ...
>>> So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy
>>> to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?
>> +1
>>
>> I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups
>> (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through
>> this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI
>> elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept.
>>
>> I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better.
>>
>> While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add
>> more fields than just one caption below each image.
>>
>> With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages
>> to get the necessary information.
>>
>> A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow
>> to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each
>> specific design element (if existing) and many more information.
>>
>> On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery.
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Bernhard
>>
>> --
>> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
>>
> Could we circulate the link to other LO lists and possibly post it on
> the LO site for users to access? I was thinking of broadening our answer
> base.
>
> I think you will have roughly three groups: those who prefer an improved
> version of the current UI but with limited graphical changes; those who
> prefer a more distinctive UI (there may be a few major groups here); and
> finally those who are indifferent about the exact look as long as it
> meets certain goals such being customizable, well organized.
>
> Personally, I am most in the last group of being more interested in
> meeting certain goals rather than the graphical layout itself. I would
> prefer to let the layout be determined by specific design goals such as
> user customization, being well organized. I do not object to a new
> interface if it will meet these and similar goals nor do object to
> keeping the current interface if these goals can be enhanced.
>
> For Linux users, you are probably familiar the debate about the Unity
> GUI (basically a customizable dock with indirect access to all the OS
> features) versus the more traditional GUI interfaces that are similar to
> Mac OS and Windows. I actually found a Linux version that combined
> elements of both the traditional interface and customizable docks, a
> middle of the road solution. Ironically, this version developed these
> ideas based on user comments from installing Linux on user boxes. The
> docks allow me to have access to the programs or folders I want quick
> access to while the traditional elements allow me to use access
> everything else the way I am have doing for years.
>
> I think we probably can combine the best features of the traditional UI
> and newer ideas into a winning UI that the vast majority of users will
> like. The key is the proper balance to obtain the most effective
> interface.
>
I am more in your group. I am more interested in getting productivity
(getting the job done efficiently) for myself and employees than how LO
looks. This isn't to say that the look isn't important to entice use and
productivity, but I think you need to start at usage before moving to a
significant UI change, otherwise it is likely to change again when usage
is studied.
There must be a regional or usage group influence involved as I do not
know anyone in the educational institution I have association with (500+
seats Office 2010) who saw the ribbon as an improvement, but obviously
many do. So treading carefully and basing change on sound investigation
with all user groups is desirable rather than change for changes sake.

Like you I think a combination is going to work best. Input from the
survey will be important and may be a number of surveys will be required
to evaluate the suggestions put forward as they progress.

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Jay Lozier Jay Lozier
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Re: The future of design suggestions

Hi Steve

On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 06:58 +1200, Steve Edmonds wrote:

> Hi Planas.
>
> On 22/06/11 10:05 AM, planas wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > On Tue, 2011-06-21 at 23:09 +0200, Bernhard Dippold wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Björn, all
> >>
> >> Björn Balazs schrieb:
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into
> >>> the direction of: "We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs to
> >>> look linke this...".
> >> For me they show the high interest of our team members in the UI design
> >> area. But you're totally right: We need to integrate the different
> >> proposals in general directions for UI improvements.
> >>> This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to
> >>> convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on that),
> >>> we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the
> >>> developers and the companies paying them.
> >> Even if a large group of developers are paid by companies, there is
> >> another group coding on their own.
> >>
> >> What we need are at least a few developers interested in UI design. If
> >> we can convince them, our ideas will become code and finally find their
> >> way into the product.
> >>
> >> But if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the
> >> needs our users to the entire community, this would get more developers
> >> interested and involved...
> >>> [... we should never argue about personal opinions ...]
> >>>
> >>> So, how can we make this more productive?
> >>>
> >>> Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not
> >>> comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision with
> >>> eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO.
> >> A gallery is great - but I'd rather think of a gallery of single UI
> >> improvements (with visualizations from different mockups) than of a
> >> gallery of the different mockups.
> >>
> >> If several mockups contain sidepanes, similar context menus or context
> >> sensitive tools, these should be combined as features, based on user
> >> data (already existing or new to be reached for) and expert statements,
> >> decided on their positive/negative impacts and recommended for
> >> implementation based on a specification containing all the necessary
> >> information for the developers.
> >>> We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing
> >>> these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users
> >>> decide about what they like.
> >> Of course user feedback is the most important quality measurement for UI
> >> modifications. But based on the user's likings it stays to us to decide
> >> which feature should be implemented in which way:
> >>
> >> There are more than design aspects to consider (marketing, present user
> >> base, documentation, coding effort, interdependency with other areas of
> >> the product ...), users can't have in mind.
> >>> With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors
> >>> to go into a certain direction.
> >> That's true - real user data are a very good argument to convince
> >> marketing and development ...
> >>> So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy
> >>> to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this?
> >> +1
> >>
> >> I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups
> >> (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through
> >> this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI
> >> elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept.
> >>
> >> I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better.
> >>
> >> While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add
> >> more fields than just one caption below each image.
> >>
> >> With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages
> >> to get the necessary information.
> >>
> >> A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow
> >> to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each
> >> specific design element (if existing) and many more information.
> >>
> >> On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery.
> >>
> >> Best regards
> >>
> >> Bernhard
> >>
> >> --
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> >>
> > Could we circulate the link to other LO lists and possibly post it on
> > the LO site for users to access? I was thinking of broadening our answer
> > base.
> >
> > I think you will have roughly three groups: those who prefer an improved
> > version of the current UI but with limited graphical changes; those who
> > prefer a more distinctive UI (there may be a few major groups here); and
> > finally those who are indifferent about the exact look as long as it
> > meets certain goals such being customizable, well organized.
> >
> > Personally, I am most in the last group of being more interested in
> > meeting certain goals rather than the graphical layout itself. I would
> > prefer to let the layout be determined by specific design goals such as
> > user customization, being well organized. I do not object to a new
> > interface if it will meet these and similar goals nor do object to
> > keeping the current interface if these goals can be enhanced.
> >
> > For Linux users, you are probably familiar the debate about the Unity
> > GUI (basically a customizable dock with indirect access to all the OS
> > features) versus the more traditional GUI interfaces that are similar to
> > Mac OS and Windows. I actually found a Linux version that combined
> > elements of both the traditional interface and customizable docks, a
> > middle of the road solution. Ironically, this version developed these
> > ideas based on user comments from installing Linux on user boxes. The
> > docks allow me to have access to the programs or folders I want quick
> > access to while the traditional elements allow me to use access
> > everything else the way I am have doing for years.
> >
> > I think we probably can combine the best features of the traditional UI
> > and newer ideas into a winning UI that the vast majority of users will
> > like. The key is the proper balance to obtain the most effective
> > interface.
> >
> I am more in your group. I am more interested in getting productivity
> (getting the job done efficiently) for myself and employees than how LO
> looks. This isn't to say that the look isn't important to entice use and
> productivity, but I think you need to start at usage before moving to a
> significant UI change, otherwise it is likely to change again when usage
> is studied.
> There must be a regional or usage group influence involved as I do not
> know anyone in the educational institution I have association with (500+
> seats Office 2010) who saw the ribbon as an improvement, but obviously
> many do. So treading carefully and basing change on sound investigation
> with all user groups is desirable rather than change for changes sake.
>
> Like you I think a combination is going to work best. Input from the
> survey will be important and may be a number of surveys will be required
> to evaluate the suggestions put forward as they progress.
>

I like a comment Steve Jobs said in the 80's when Apple launched the
Mac, His goal was to make using a compute easy to use so would be
similar to another household appliance. The focus he had was on utility
and that forced certain UI/GUI choices. Some the choices made were due
to hardware limitations of the era, most where based on how people like
to work.

Now we have much more powerful hardware that can things with an UI that
were dreams in the 80's. The constant is people, while used to working
with/on computers have not really changed that much. UI designs that
forget humans have not changed fundamentally over the last 30 years
could be actually more difficult to use. The problem is to make the UI
that best mirrors how a person will interact with the device, in our
case desktops and laptops primarily and use it.

--
Jay Lozier
[hidden email]

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Greg-2 Greg-2
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Re: The future of design suggestions

In reply to this post by Slartibartfast
> Hi Bjorn,
>
> I do share your concerns, but would like to present a somewhat even more
> radical position.
>
> As I understand it, you advocate for an evidence-based decision-making for
> design questions.
> Anyone can come up with his/her design alternative.
> Eventually all the alternatives will be tested by actual users, in one
> survey or another, and may the most popular alternative win!
>
> I would like to ask why not have a preliminary set of surveys, to identify
> the needs and likes of actual users and of potential users,
> and then come up with design alternatives that address these likes and
> needs.
>
> What do you say?
>
> dror
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/The-future-of-design-suggestions-tp30
> 85560p3092867.html Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

I'm with you on the warning about premature GUI design proposals. My
experience is that Use Cases are amongst the premier means to capture
requirements. (I'm not convinced Agile, with user stories would work in a
Libre Ofice context)

I operate a UCD process that iteratively gathers requirements in Use Case
form, validating them with stakeholders. When I have sufficient confidence
about a use case or related set, I  start paper and pen architectural designs
and wireframes and again, iteratively validate them. As the iterations proceed
towards higher fidelity prototypes, including some that test interaction
behaviour design, I again make the call and if I'm confident the design is
sufficiently coherant and addresses the original validated use case, the
prototype gets hardened to implementation, which is once again validated with
the stakeholders and their use case(s)

As I said, in my reply to Scott's Design Tennets Proposal,

"I couldn't agree more with the proposal that we should be guided by
principles.
What I have found a little frustrating, by way of comparison to the
developement of commercial software is the disconnect between genuine user
requirements and development. What I think is consistently missing here is the
next layer down from your excellent 'tennets'; user validated  requirements
(not personal opinion or anecdotal observations). A corpus of well structured
use cases, including those for the product architecture, will help us set a
strategic direction. We should research requirements before too many folk
pitch in with alternative designs and prototypes that may or may
not be any kind of solution to users' real needs. It is precisely this which
will make or break Libre Office and will set it apart from other office
software.

If we know what users want then we can stage implementation in deliverable
chunks over several releases. There's no need to implement the whole deal in
one hit.

One final thought. If the current implementation or architecture is part of an
impediment to realising a long term roadmap to a redesign, then that too
should  appear as one of the tennets."


Cheers,

Greg

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bedipp bedipp
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Re: The future of design suggestions

In reply to this post by bedipp
Hi all,

Bernhard Dippold schrieb:

> Hi Björn, all
>
> Björn Balasz wrote:
>> Hi Bernhard, all,
>>
>> Am Dienstag, 21. Juni 2011, 23:09:33 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
>> [...]
>>>
>>> I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups
>>> (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through
>>> this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI
>>> elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept.
>>>
>>> I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better.
>>>
>>> While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add
>>> more fields than just one caption below each image.
>>>
>>> With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages
>>> to get the necessary information.
>>>
>>> A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow
>>> to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each
>>> specific design element (if existing) and many more information.
>>>
>>> On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery.
>>>
>>
>> Could you take care of this? Important to me seems to be that commitments are
>> licenced correctly and allow to show mocks, designs and even prototypes at
>> the same time. Don't know which technical solution is best for this...
>
> I can try to - but I'd really appreciate someone else to step in (too).
>
> My time is limited, but that's probably the same for each of our team members.

I started with some thoughts on the single UI elements table.

Here is the very first result:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Bedipp/UI_Elements

A table with different fields containing UI elements, a thumbnail image,
name and date of upload, last activity, description, other
implementations, advantages and disadvantages and finally the priority
(or status of implementation).

Please don't hesitate to comment and work on this table, find
superfluous or lacking columns, add your own ideas -

But most important: discuss it here.

If there will be positive feedback I'll move this page out of my
personal page.

Best regards

Bernhard

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