Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

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Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

Hi :)
How do people here feel about approaching the Thunderbird people to bring
them into the LibreOffice project a bit more?  Perhaps they could become
the official default email client?

As most of you know - many organisations, particularly OpenSource ones,
have departments/sections/sub-groups that focus on supporting external
projects that are used within their own project.  For example Ubuntu,
Redhat, openSuSE, Mageia, Fedora (and so on) each have people able to help
their users deal with most issues to do with Thunderbird, LibreOffice and
many other apps.  Typically such people can handle quite a lot of issues
but sometimes seek help from 'upstream' (such as to here if it's a
LibreOffice issue) or/and invite the user to take their issue upstream
themselves. Many of such people stay within one OS and help with many apps
within that OS but some support the same app in many different OSes.  There
are even generic forums, such as "LinuxQuestions.org" that handle a lot of
different OSes.

This mailing list has helped quite a few people with "off topic" issues,
such as helping with other apps or choosing a good "gateway" distro (such
as Mint, Ubuntu etc) for people who want to break free of Windows or even
helping with quite detailed "off topic" issues in very geeky Gnu&Linux OSes
(such as Slackware).  Also there's a good chance that some people from
Thunderbird might start offering weeu's support through our support
systems, such as this mailing list - if we were welcoming and supportive.

How would people here feel about this mailing list offering support to
Thunderbird users, particularly ones who use LibreOffice as their Office
Suite?

Another option might be for "The Document Foundation" to fully take on the
whole of the Thunderbird project, and bring in all of their infrastructure
and maybe kinda merge parts together where it's easy enough to do so.

Personally i prefer this sort of approach  The Mozilla Foundation chose to
split TB away from their web-browser (a good linuxy thing to do) so they
could be more independent and therefore be used by people who use a wide
range of other web-browsers - also helping those few Firefox users who were
using something else to benefit more from a more streamlined Firefox.  A
few years ago Mozilla decided to drop almost all it's support for TBeaving
it all to just volunteers.  The TB volunteers have done a fantastic job but
it would be great to give them a new home so they can "spread their wings"
a lot more.

To me it seems that either way, or something similar would greatly benefit
both (or even all 3!) separate projects.

It at long last would solve the main perceived 'blocker' that many people
seem to struggle with when trying to move away from MS Office = that LO
doesn't have a drop-in replacement for Outlook.

Although Outlook includes calendar functionality (and a lot more) it seems
that the most frequent problem that people ask about is just about emails.
On this mailing list it's even been suggested the TDF create a new email
client, but i think most of us already use TB anyway and it's probably
better to just use something that has a good, well-proven track-record
rather than try to cobble something together from scratch.

Some of us inevitably try to point out that there are many other choices of
email client to suit particular niche-markets - such as Claws (for a much
smaller foot-print and thus faster on lower-spec machines) or Evolution
(for a totally complete "drop in replacement" for Outlook in terms of
look&feel (but has limited support and is not cross-platform, and can't
even cope outside the Gnome DE so it limits which versions of Gnu&Linux it
can be used on)) and some really fancy ones with more project-management
functionality.

Such alternatives would still be available and supported but by having TB
as our default it would dissolve one more perceived 'blocker' . People
would no longer be forced into doing a tonne more research into which email
client to choose, and TB would be the perfect one for the vast majority of
them.

Microsoft and Apple seem to be successful largely because they remove
people's options and give them "Freedom FROM choice".  The tech industry
seems to value that above almost anything else.  As soon as there are
choices they start grumbling about "fragmentation", and that it's difficult
to choose "which is best" because different use-cases may have different
requirements and therefore may need  make slightly different choices.  In
every other industry monopolies are seen as bad - choice and diversity are
applauded as being "good competition" allowing "market forces" to help
drive innovation, efficiency and all that sort of thing.

In the Gnu&Linux world we fight hard to make sure there is "Freedom OF
choice", but a lot of people struggle when given options - they just want
to settle with what they are given and then grumble about it!

Giving people a default and then allowing them to easily replace it as been
hugely successful for "gateway distros" and i think it would probably be
great for us too.  How do other people here feel?

Also, just out of curiosity, do we happen to already have people here who
help other people with Thunderbird issues in another forum or support
network?  We probably do already have some with some level of expertise on
this mailing list, or at least people who can quickly learn how to resolve
the most frequently asked issues.
Many regards from
Tom :)
On 26 Feb 2016 10:25, "Florian Effenberger" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

Hello,

the following decision was taken on October 5, 2015 in private as the board
saw a need for confidentiality.

It is now made public in accordance with our statutes.

Proposal: Authorize Simon Phipps to explore Thunderbird options with Mozilla

The Board of Directors at the time of voting consists of 7 seat holders
without deputies. In order to be quorate, the vote needs to have 1/2 of the
Board of Directors members, which gives 4.

A total of 5 Board of Directors members have participated in the
vote. The vote is quorate.

A quorum could be reached with a simple majority of 3 votes.

Result of vote: 5 approvals, 0 neutral, 0 disapprovals.
Decision: The request has been accepted.

This message is to be archived by the BoD members and their deputies.

Florian

--
Florian Effenberger, Executive Director (Geschäftsführer)
Tel: +49 30 5557992-50 | IRC: floeff on Freenode
The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint

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Tanstaafl Tanstaafl
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Re: Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

I think bringing Thunderbird fully under the umbrella of The Document
Foundation, and as a sister project of LibreOffice, is a fantastic idea,
it just makes the most sense to me as a formal and permanent home for
Thunderbird going forward.

The fact is, in spite of the fact that Thunderbird development has
actually improved dramatically ever since Mozilla 'killed it' thanks
*only* to the fantastic volunteers who stepped up, its long term future
is in jeopardy right now.

I would dearly love to see Thunderbird adopted, providing it the legal
infrastructure and resources it will need if it is to remain viable.

As both a long time Thunderbird user, since well before it reached
version 1.0, and supporting our 60+ Thunderbird users at our office this
entire time, I would be happy to provide assistance on this list. Not to
brag, but there are very few Thunderbird issues that I couldn't either
solve, or at least point you to the bug # covering the bug. And since
Lightning is now a bundled Addon, people have to explicitly 'opt out' of
Calendar functionality, so the fact that TB has a calendar is now much
more 'discoverable' for new users.

Anyway, I hope something comes of this...

Charles

On 2/26/2016 8:15 AM, Tom Davies <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi :)
> How do people here feel about approaching the Thunderbird people to bring
> them into the LibreOffice project a bit more?  Perhaps they could become
> the official default email client?
>
> As most of you know - many organisations, particularly OpenSource ones,
> have departments/sections/sub-groups that focus on supporting external
> projects that are used within their own project.  For example Ubuntu,
> Redhat, openSuSE, Mageia, Fedora (and so on) each have people able to help
> their users deal with most issues to do with Thunderbird, LibreOffice and
> many other apps.  Typically such people can handle quite a lot of issues
> but sometimes seek help from 'upstream' (such as to here if it's a
> LibreOffice issue) or/and invite the user to take their issue upstream
> themselves. Many of such people stay within one OS and help with many apps
> within that OS but some support the same app in many different OSes.  There
> are even generic forums, such as "LinuxQuestions.org" that handle a lot of
> different OSes.
>
> This mailing list has helped quite a few people with "off topic" issues,
> such as helping with other apps or choosing a good "gateway" distro (such
> as Mint, Ubuntu etc) for people who want to break free of Windows or even
> helping with quite detailed "off topic" issues in very geeky Gnu&Linux OSes
> (such as Slackware).  Also there's a good chance that some people from
> Thunderbird might start offering weeu's support through our support
> systems, such as this mailing list - if we were welcoming and supportive.
>
> How would people here feel about this mailing list offering support to
> Thunderbird users, particularly ones who use LibreOffice as their Office
> Suite?
>
> Another option might be for "The Document Foundation" to fully take on the
> whole of the Thunderbird project, and bring in all of their infrastructure
> and maybe kinda merge parts together where it's easy enough to do so.
>
> Personally i prefer this sort of approach  The Mozilla Foundation chose to
> split TB away from their web-browser (a good linuxy thing to do) so they
> could be more independent and therefore be used by people who use a wide
> range of other web-browsers - also helping those few Firefox users who were
> using something else to benefit more from a more streamlined Firefox.  A
> few years ago Mozilla decided to drop almost all it's support for TBeaving
> it all to just volunteers.  The TB volunteers have done a fantastic job but
> it would be great to give them a new home so they can "spread their wings"
> a lot more.
>
> To me it seems that either way, or something similar would greatly benefit
> both (or even all 3!) separate projects.
>
> It at long last would solve the main perceived 'blocker' that many people
> seem to struggle with when trying to move away from MS Office = that LO
> doesn't have a drop-in replacement for Outlook.
>
> Although Outlook includes calendar functionality (and a lot more) it seems
> that the most frequent problem that people ask about is just about emails.
> On this mailing list it's even been suggested the TDF create a new email
> client, but i think most of us already use TB anyway and it's probably
> better to just use something that has a good, well-proven track-record
> rather than try to cobble something together from scratch.
>
> Some of us inevitably try to point out that there are many other choices of
> email client to suit particular niche-markets - such as Claws (for a much
> smaller foot-print and thus faster on lower-spec machines) or Evolution
> (for a totally complete "drop in replacement" for Outlook in terms of
> look&feel (but has limited support and is not cross-platform, and can't
> even cope outside the Gnome DE so it limits which versions of Gnu&Linux it
> can be used on)) and some really fancy ones with more project-management
> functionality.
>
> Such alternatives would still be available and supported but by having TB
> as our default it would dissolve one more perceived 'blocker' . People
> would no longer be forced into doing a tonne more research into which email
> client to choose, and TB would be the perfect one for the vast majority of
> them.
>
> Microsoft and Apple seem to be successful largely because they remove
> people's options and give them "Freedom FROM choice".  The tech industry
> seems to value that above almost anything else.  As soon as there are
> choices they start grumbling about "fragmentation", and that it's difficult
> to choose "which is best" because different use-cases may have different
> requirements and therefore may need  make slightly different choices.  In
> every other industry monopolies are seen as bad - choice and diversity are
> applauded as being "good competition" allowing "market forces" to help
> drive innovation, efficiency and all that sort of thing.
>
> In the Gnu&Linux world we fight hard to make sure there is "Freedom OF
> choice", but a lot of people struggle when given options - they just want
> to settle with what they are given and then grumble about it!
>
> Giving people a default and then allowing them to easily replace it as been
> hugely successful for "gateway distros" and i think it would probably be
> great for us too.  How do other people here feel?
>
> Also, just out of curiosity, do we happen to already have people here who
> help other people with Thunderbird issues in another forum or support
> network?  We probably do already have some with some level of expertise on
> this mailing list, or at least people who can quickly learn how to resolve
> the most frequently asked issues.
> Many regards from
> Tom :)
> On 26 Feb 2016 10:25, "Florian Effenberger" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> the following decision was taken on October 5, 2015 in private as the board
> saw a need for confidentiality.
>
> It is now made public in accordance with our statutes.
>
> Proposal: Authorize Simon Phipps to explore Thunderbird options with Mozilla
>
> The Board of Directors at the time of voting consists of 7 seat holders
> without deputies. In order to be quorate, the vote needs to have 1/2 of the
> Board of Directors members, which gives 4.
>
> A total of 5 Board of Directors members have participated in the
> vote. The vote is quorate.
>
> A quorum could be reached with a simple majority of 3 votes.
>
> Result of vote: 5 approvals, 0 neutral, 0 disapprovals.
> Decision: The request has been accepted.
>
> This message is to be archived by the BoD members and their deputies.
>
> Florian
>


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Daniel Espinosa Daniel Espinosa
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Re: Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

May should be renamed to LibreOffice Mail.
El feb. 26, 2016 9:04 AM, "Tanstaafl" <[hidden email]> escribió:

> I think bringing Thunderbird fully under the umbrella of The Document
> Foundation, and as a sister project of LibreOffice, is a fantastic idea,
> it just makes the most sense to me as a formal and permanent home for
> Thunderbird going forward.
>
> The fact is, in spite of the fact that Thunderbird development has
> actually improved dramatically ever since Mozilla 'killed it' thanks
> *only* to the fantastic volunteers who stepped up, its long term future
> is in jeopardy right now.
>
> I would dearly love to see Thunderbird adopted, providing it the legal
> infrastructure and resources it will need if it is to remain viable.
>
> As both a long time Thunderbird user, since well before it reached
> version 1.0, and supporting our 60+ Thunderbird users at our office this
> entire time, I would be happy to provide assistance on this list. Not to
> brag, but there are very few Thunderbird issues that I couldn't either
> solve, or at least point you to the bug # covering the bug. And since
> Lightning is now a bundled Addon, people have to explicitly 'opt out' of
> Calendar functionality, so the fact that TB has a calendar is now much
> more 'discoverable' for new users.
>
> Anyway, I hope something comes of this...
>
> Charles
>
> On 2/26/2016 8:15 AM, Tom Davies <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi :)
> > How do people here feel about approaching the Thunderbird people to bring
> > them into the LibreOffice project a bit more?  Perhaps they could become
> > the official default email client?
> >
> > As most of you know - many organisations, particularly OpenSource ones,
> > have departments/sections/sub-groups that focus on supporting external
> > projects that are used within their own project.  For example Ubuntu,
> > Redhat, openSuSE, Mageia, Fedora (and so on) each have people able to
> help
> > their users deal with most issues to do with Thunderbird, LibreOffice and
> > many other apps.  Typically such people can handle quite a lot of issues
> > but sometimes seek help from 'upstream' (such as to here if it's a
> > LibreOffice issue) or/and invite the user to take their issue upstream
> > themselves. Many of such people stay within one OS and help with many
> apps
> > within that OS but some support the same app in many different OSes.
> There
> > are even generic forums, such as "LinuxQuestions.org" that handle a lot
> of
> > different OSes.
> >
> > This mailing list has helped quite a few people with "off topic" issues,
> > such as helping with other apps or choosing a good "gateway" distro (such
> > as Mint, Ubuntu etc) for people who want to break free of Windows or even
> > helping with quite detailed "off topic" issues in very geeky Gnu&Linux
> OSes
> > (such as Slackware).  Also there's a good chance that some people from
> > Thunderbird might start offering weeu's support through our support
> > systems, such as this mailing list - if we were welcoming and supportive.
> >
> > How would people here feel about this mailing list offering support to
> > Thunderbird users, particularly ones who use LibreOffice as their Office
> > Suite?
> >
> > Another option might be for "The Document Foundation" to fully take on
> the
> > whole of the Thunderbird project, and bring in all of their
> infrastructure
> > and maybe kinda merge parts together where it's easy enough to do so.
> >
> > Personally i prefer this sort of approach  The Mozilla Foundation chose
> to
> > split TB away from their web-browser (a good linuxy thing to do) so they
> > could be more independent and therefore be used by people who use a wide
> > range of other web-browsers - also helping those few Firefox users who
> were
> > using something else to benefit more from a more streamlined Firefox.  A
> > few years ago Mozilla decided to drop almost all it's support for
> TBeaving
> > it all to just volunteers.  The TB volunteers have done a fantastic job
> but
> > it would be great to give them a new home so they can "spread their
> wings"
> > a lot more.
> >
> > To me it seems that either way, or something similar would greatly
> benefit
> > both (or even all 3!) separate projects.
> >
> > It at long last would solve the main perceived 'blocker' that many people
> > seem to struggle with when trying to move away from MS Office = that LO
> > doesn't have a drop-in replacement for Outlook.
> >
> > Although Outlook includes calendar functionality (and a lot more) it
> seems
> > that the most frequent problem that people ask about is just about
> emails.
> > On this mailing list it's even been suggested the TDF create a new email
> > client, but i think most of us already use TB anyway and it's probably
> > better to just use something that has a good, well-proven track-record
> > rather than try to cobble something together from scratch.
> >
> > Some of us inevitably try to point out that there are many other choices
> of
> > email client to suit particular niche-markets - such as Claws (for a much
> > smaller foot-print and thus faster on lower-spec machines) or Evolution
> > (for a totally complete "drop in replacement" for Outlook in terms of
> > look&feel (but has limited support and is not cross-platform, and can't
> > even cope outside the Gnome DE so it limits which versions of Gnu&Linux
> it
> > can be used on)) and some really fancy ones with more project-management
> > functionality.
> >
> > Such alternatives would still be available and supported but by having TB
> > as our default it would dissolve one more perceived 'blocker' . People
> > would no longer be forced into doing a tonne more research into which
> email
> > client to choose, and TB would be the perfect one for the vast majority
> of
> > them.
> >
> > Microsoft and Apple seem to be successful largely because they remove
> > people's options and give them "Freedom FROM choice".  The tech industry
> > seems to value that above almost anything else.  As soon as there are
> > choices they start grumbling about "fragmentation", and that it's
> difficult
> > to choose "which is best" because different use-cases may have different
> > requirements and therefore may need  make slightly different choices.  In
> > every other industry monopolies are seen as bad - choice and diversity
> are
> > applauded as being "good competition" allowing "market forces" to help
> > drive innovation, efficiency and all that sort of thing.
> >
> > In the Gnu&Linux world we fight hard to make sure there is "Freedom OF
> > choice", but a lot of people struggle when given options - they just want
> > to settle with what they are given and then grumble about it!
> >
> > Giving people a default and then allowing them to easily replace it as
> been
> > hugely successful for "gateway distros" and i think it would probably be
> > great for us too.  How do other people here feel?
> >
> > Also, just out of curiosity, do we happen to already have people here who
> > help other people with Thunderbird issues in another forum or support
> > network?  We probably do already have some with some level of expertise
> on
> > this mailing list, or at least people who can quickly learn how to
> resolve
> > the most frequently asked issues.
> > Many regards from
> > Tom :)
> > On 26 Feb 2016 10:25, "Florian Effenberger" <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > the following decision was taken on October 5, 2015 in private as the
> board
> > saw a need for confidentiality.
> >
> > It is now made public in accordance with our statutes.
> >
> > Proposal: Authorize Simon Phipps to explore Thunderbird options with
> Mozilla
> >
> > The Board of Directors at the time of voting consists of 7 seat holders
> > without deputies. In order to be quorate, the vote needs to have 1/2 of
> the
> > Board of Directors members, which gives 4.
> >
> > A total of 5 Board of Directors members have participated in the
> > vote. The vote is quorate.
> >
> > A quorum could be reached with a simple majority of 3 votes.
> >
> > Result of vote: 5 approvals, 0 neutral, 0 disapprovals.
> > Decision: The request has been accepted.
> >
> > This message is to be archived by the BoD members and their deputies.
> >
> > Florian
> >
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>

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Tanstaafl Tanstaafl
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Re: Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

No, no, no. There is no reason.

Or, at the very least, it is waaaaaaaaaaaay too early to even consider
*thinking about* a name change for Thunderbird.

Personally, I wouldn't necessarily be against it, but there would have
to be a decent successful history of Thunderbird development under TDF
umbrella before this should be considered.

On 2/26/2016 10:32 AM, Daniel Espinosa <[hidden email]> wrote:

> May should be renamed to LibreOffice Mail.
>
> El feb. 26, 2016 9:04 AM, "Tanstaafl" <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> escribió:
>
>     I think bringing Thunderbird fully under the umbrella of The Document
>     Foundation, and as a sister project of LibreOffice, is a fantastic idea,
>     it just makes the most sense to me as a formal and permanent home for
>     Thunderbird going forward.
>
>     The fact is, in spite of the fact that Thunderbird development has
>     actually improved dramatically ever since Mozilla 'killed it' thanks
>     *only* to the fantastic volunteers who stepped up, its long term future
>     is in jeopardy right now.
>
>     I would dearly love to see Thunderbird adopted, providing it the legal
>     infrastructure and resources it will need if it is to remain viable.
>
>     As both a long time Thunderbird user, since well before it reached
>     version 1.0, and supporting our 60+ Thunderbird users at our office this
>     entire time, I would be happy to provide assistance on this list. Not to
>     brag, but there are very few Thunderbird issues that I couldn't either
>     solve, or at least point you to the bug # covering the bug. And since
>     Lightning is now a bundled Addon, people have to explicitly 'opt out' of
>     Calendar functionality, so the fact that TB has a calendar is now much
>     more 'discoverable' for new users.
>
>     Anyway, I hope something comes of this...
>
>     Charles
>
>     On 2/26/2016 8:15 AM, Tom Davies <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>     > Hi :)
>     > How do people here feel about approaching the Thunderbird people
>     to bring
>     > them into the LibreOffice project a bit more?  Perhaps they could
>     become
>     > the official default email client?
>     >
>     > As most of you know - many organisations, particularly OpenSource
>     ones,
>     > have departments/sections/sub-groups that focus on supporting external
>     > projects that are used within their own project.  For example Ubuntu,
>     > Redhat, openSuSE, Mageia, Fedora (and so on) each have people able
>     to help
>     > their users deal with most issues to do with Thunderbird,
>     LibreOffice and
>     > many other apps.  Typically such people can handle quite a lot of
>     issues
>     > but sometimes seek help from 'upstream' (such as to here if it's a
>     > LibreOffice issue) or/and invite the user to take their issue upstream
>     > themselves. Many of such people stay within one OS and help with
>     many apps
>     > within that OS but some support the same app in many different
>     OSes.  There
>     > are even generic forums, such as "LinuxQuestions.org" that handle
>     a lot of
>     > different OSes.
>     >
>     > This mailing list has helped quite a few people with "off topic"
>     issues,
>     > such as helping with other apps or choosing a good "gateway"
>     distro (such
>     > as Mint, Ubuntu etc) for people who want to break free of Windows
>     or even
>     > helping with quite detailed "off topic" issues in very geeky
>     Gnu&Linux OSes
>     > (such as Slackware).  Also there's a good chance that some people from
>     > Thunderbird might start offering weeu's support through our support
>     > systems, such as this mailing list - if we were welcoming and
>     supportive.
>     >
>     > How would people here feel about this mailing list offering support to
>     > Thunderbird users, particularly ones who use LibreOffice as their
>     Office
>     > Suite?
>     >
>     > Another option might be for "The Document Foundation" to fully
>     take on the
>     > whole of the Thunderbird project, and bring in all of their
>     infrastructure
>     > and maybe kinda merge parts together where it's easy enough to do so.
>     >
>     > Personally i prefer this sort of approach  The Mozilla Foundation
>     chose to
>     > split TB away from their web-browser (a good linuxy thing to do)
>     so they
>     > could be more independent and therefore be used by people who use
>     a wide
>     > range of other web-browsers - also helping those few Firefox users
>     who were
>     > using something else to benefit more from a more streamlined
>     Firefox.  A
>     > few years ago Mozilla decided to drop almost all it's support for
>     TBeaving
>     > it all to just volunteers.  The TB volunteers have done a
>     fantastic job but
>     > it would be great to give them a new home so they can "spread
>     their wings"
>     > a lot more.
>     >
>     > To me it seems that either way, or something similar would greatly
>     benefit
>     > both (or even all 3!) separate projects.
>     >
>     > It at long last would solve the main perceived 'blocker' that many
>     people
>     > seem to struggle with when trying to move away from MS Office =
>     that LO
>     > doesn't have a drop-in replacement for Outlook.
>     >
>     > Although Outlook includes calendar functionality (and a lot more)
>     it seems
>     > that the most frequent problem that people ask about is just about
>     emails.
>     > On this mailing list it's even been suggested the TDF create a new
>     email
>     > client, but i think most of us already use TB anyway and it's probably
>     > better to just use something that has a good, well-proven track-record
>     > rather than try to cobble something together from scratch.
>     >
>     > Some of us inevitably try to point out that there are many other
>     choices of
>     > email client to suit particular niche-markets - such as Claws (for
>     a much
>     > smaller foot-print and thus faster on lower-spec machines) or
>     Evolution
>     > (for a totally complete "drop in replacement" for Outlook in terms of
>     > look&feel (but has limited support and is not cross-platform, and
>     can't
>     > even cope outside the Gnome DE so it limits which versions of
>     Gnu&Linux it
>     > can be used on)) and some really fancy ones with more
>     project-management
>     > functionality.
>     >
>     > Such alternatives would still be available and supported but by
>     having TB
>     > as our default it would dissolve one more perceived 'blocker' . People
>     > would no longer be forced into doing a tonne more research into
>     which email
>     > client to choose, and TB would be the perfect one for the vast
>     majority of
>     > them.
>     >
>     > Microsoft and Apple seem to be successful largely because they remove
>     > people's options and give them "Freedom FROM choice".  The tech
>     industry
>     > seems to value that above almost anything else.  As soon as there are
>     > choices they start grumbling about "fragmentation", and that it's
>     difficult
>     > to choose "which is best" because different use-cases may have
>     different
>     > requirements and therefore may need  make slightly different
>     choices.  In
>     > every other industry monopolies are seen as bad - choice and
>     diversity are
>     > applauded as being "good competition" allowing "market forces" to help
>     > drive innovation, efficiency and all that sort of thing.
>     >
>     > In the Gnu&Linux world we fight hard to make sure there is "Freedom OF
>     > choice", but a lot of people struggle when given options - they
>     just want
>     > to settle with what they are given and then grumble about it!
>     >
>     > Giving people a default and then allowing them to easily replace
>     it as been
>     > hugely successful for "gateway distros" and i think it would
>     probably be
>     > great for us too.  How do other people here feel?
>     >
>     > Also, just out of curiosity, do we happen to already have people
>     here who
>     > help other people with Thunderbird issues in another forum or support
>     > network?  We probably do already have some with some level of
>     expertise on
>     > this mailing list, or at least people who can quickly learn how to
>     resolve
>     > the most frequently asked issues.
>     > Many regards from
>     > Tom :)
>     > On 26 Feb 2016 10:25, "Florian Effenberger"
>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     > wrote:
>     >
>     > Hello,
>     >
>     > the following decision was taken on October 5, 2015 in private as
>     the board
>     > saw a need for confidentiality.
>     >
>     > It is now made public in accordance with our statutes.
>     >
>     > Proposal: Authorize Simon Phipps to explore Thunderbird options
>     with Mozilla
>     >
>     > The Board of Directors at the time of voting consists of 7 seat
>     holders
>     > without deputies. In order to be quorate, the vote needs to have
>     1/2 of the
>     > Board of Directors members, which gives 4.
>     >
>     > A total of 5 Board of Directors members have participated in the
>     > vote. The vote is quorate.
>     >
>     > A quorum could be reached with a simple majority of 3 votes.
>     >
>     > Result of vote: 5 approvals, 0 neutral, 0 disapprovals.
>     > Decision: The request has been accepted.
>     >
>     > This message is to be archived by the BoD members and their deputies.
>     >
>     > Florian


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Re: Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

hi.
i am realy advocate of opensource project and become happy to know
about them and help people.
its a good idea, but i am not expert in using thunderbird and dont
have information about it.
thank you tom.

On 2/26/16, Tanstaafl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> No, no, no. There is no reason.
>
> Or, at the very least, it is waaaaaaaaaaaay too early to even consider
> *thinking about* a name change for Thunderbird.
>
> Personally, I wouldn't necessarily be against it, but there would have
> to be a decent successful history of Thunderbird development under TDF
> umbrella before this should be considered.
>
> On 2/26/2016 10:32 AM, Daniel Espinosa <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> May should be renamed to LibreOffice Mail.
>>
>> El feb. 26, 2016 9:04 AM, "Tanstaafl" <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> escribió:
>>
>>     I think bringing Thunderbird fully under the umbrella of The Document
>>     Foundation, and as a sister project of LibreOffice, is a fantastic
>> idea,
>>     it just makes the most sense to me as a formal and permanent home for
>>     Thunderbird going forward.
>>
>>     The fact is, in spite of the fact that Thunderbird development has
>>     actually improved dramatically ever since Mozilla 'killed it' thanks
>>     *only* to the fantastic volunteers who stepped up, its long term
>> future
>>     is in jeopardy right now.
>>
>>     I would dearly love to see Thunderbird adopted, providing it the legal
>>     infrastructure and resources it will need if it is to remain viable.
>>
>>     As both a long time Thunderbird user, since well before it reached
>>     version 1.0, and supporting our 60+ Thunderbird users at our office
>> this
>>     entire time, I would be happy to provide assistance on this list. Not
>> to
>>     brag, but there are very few Thunderbird issues that I couldn't either
>>     solve, or at least point you to the bug # covering the bug. And since
>>     Lightning is now a bundled Addon, people have to explicitly 'opt out'
>> of
>>     Calendar functionality, so the fact that TB has a calendar is now much
>>     more 'discoverable' for new users.
>>
>>     Anyway, I hope something comes of this...
>>
>>     Charles
>>
>>     On 2/26/2016 8:15 AM, Tom Davies <[hidden email]
>>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>     > Hi :)
>>     > How do people here feel about approaching the Thunderbird people
>>     to bring
>>     > them into the LibreOffice project a bit more?  Perhaps they could
>>     become
>>     > the official default email client?
>>     >
>>     > As most of you know - many organisations, particularly OpenSource
>>     ones,
>>     > have departments/sections/sub-groups that focus on supporting
>> external
>>     > projects that are used within their own project.  For example
>> Ubuntu,
>>     > Redhat, openSuSE, Mageia, Fedora (and so on) each have people able
>>     to help
>>     > their users deal with most issues to do with Thunderbird,
>>     LibreOffice and
>>     > many other apps.  Typically such people can handle quite a lot of
>>     issues
>>     > but sometimes seek help from 'upstream' (such as to here if it's a
>>     > LibreOffice issue) or/and invite the user to take their issue
>> upstream
>>     > themselves. Many of such people stay within one OS and help with
>>     many apps
>>     > within that OS but some support the same app in many different
>>     OSes.  There
>>     > are even generic forums, such as "LinuxQuestions.org" that handle
>>     a lot of
>>     > different OSes.
>>     >
>>     > This mailing list has helped quite a few people with "off topic"
>>     issues,
>>     > such as helping with other apps or choosing a good "gateway"
>>     distro (such
>>     > as Mint, Ubuntu etc) for people who want to break free of Windows
>>     or even
>>     > helping with quite detailed "off topic" issues in very geeky
>>     Gnu&Linux OSes
>>     > (such as Slackware).  Also there's a good chance that some people
>> from
>>     > Thunderbird might start offering weeu's support through our support
>>     > systems, such as this mailing list - if we were welcoming and
>>     supportive.
>>     >
>>     > How would people here feel about this mailing list offering support
>> to
>>     > Thunderbird users, particularly ones who use LibreOffice as their
>>     Office
>>     > Suite?
>>     >
>>     > Another option might be for "The Document Foundation" to fully
>>     take on the
>>     > whole of the Thunderbird project, and bring in all of their
>>     infrastructure
>>     > and maybe kinda merge parts together where it's easy enough to do
>> so.
>>     >
>>     > Personally i prefer this sort of approach  The Mozilla Foundation
>>     chose to
>>     > split TB away from their web-browser (a good linuxy thing to do)
>>     so they
>>     > could be more independent and therefore be used by people who use
>>     a wide
>>     > range of other web-browsers - also helping those few Firefox users
>>     who were
>>     > using something else to benefit more from a more streamlined
>>     Firefox.  A
>>     > few years ago Mozilla decided to drop almost all it's support for
>>     TBeaving
>>     > it all to just volunteers.  The TB volunteers have done a
>>     fantastic job but
>>     > it would be great to give them a new home so they can "spread
>>     their wings"
>>     > a lot more.
>>     >
>>     > To me it seems that either way, or something similar would greatly
>>     benefit
>>     > both (or even all 3!) separate projects.
>>     >
>>     > It at long last would solve the main perceived 'blocker' that many
>>     people
>>     > seem to struggle with when trying to move away from MS Office =
>>     that LO
>>     > doesn't have a drop-in replacement for Outlook.
>>     >
>>     > Although Outlook includes calendar functionality (and a lot more)
>>     it seems
>>     > that the most frequent problem that people ask about is just about
>>     emails.
>>     > On this mailing list it's even been suggested the TDF create a new
>>     email
>>     > client, but i think most of us already use TB anyway and it's
>> probably
>>     > better to just use something that has a good, well-proven
>> track-record
>>     > rather than try to cobble something together from scratch.
>>     >
>>     > Some of us inevitably try to point out that there are many other
>>     choices of
>>     > email client to suit particular niche-markets - such as Claws (for
>>     a much
>>     > smaller foot-print and thus faster on lower-spec machines) or
>>     Evolution
>>     > (for a totally complete "drop in replacement" for Outlook in terms
>> of
>>     > look&feel (but has limited support and is not cross-platform, and
>>     can't
>>     > even cope outside the Gnome DE so it limits which versions of
>>     Gnu&Linux it
>>     > can be used on)) and some really fancy ones with more
>>     project-management
>>     > functionality.
>>     >
>>     > Such alternatives would still be available and supported but by
>>     having TB
>>     > as our default it would dissolve one more perceived 'blocker' .
>> People
>>     > would no longer be forced into doing a tonne more research into
>>     which email
>>     > client to choose, and TB would be the perfect one for the vast
>>     majority of
>>     > them.
>>     >
>>     > Microsoft and Apple seem to be successful largely because they
>> remove
>>     > people's options and give them "Freedom FROM choice".  The tech
>>     industry
>>     > seems to value that above almost anything else.  As soon as there
>> are
>>     > choices they start grumbling about "fragmentation", and that it's
>>     difficult
>>     > to choose "which is best" because different use-cases may have
>>     different
>>     > requirements and therefore may need  make slightly different
>>     choices.  In
>>     > every other industry monopolies are seen as bad - choice and
>>     diversity are
>>     > applauded as being "good competition" allowing "market forces" to
>> help
>>     > drive innovation, efficiency and all that sort of thing.
>>     >
>>     > In the Gnu&Linux world we fight hard to make sure there is "Freedom
>> OF
>>     > choice", but a lot of people struggle when given options - they
>>     just want
>>     > to settle with what they are given and then grumble about it!
>>     >
>>     > Giving people a default and then allowing them to easily replace
>>     it as been
>>     > hugely successful for "gateway distros" and i think it would
>>     probably be
>>     > great for us too.  How do other people here feel?
>>     >
>>     > Also, just out of curiosity, do we happen to already have people
>>     here who
>>     > help other people with Thunderbird issues in another forum or
>> support
>>     > network?  We probably do already have some with some level of
>>     expertise on
>>     > this mailing list, or at least people who can quickly learn how to
>>     resolve
>>     > the most frequently asked issues.
>>     > Many regards from
>>     > Tom :)
>>     > On 26 Feb 2016 10:25, "Florian Effenberger"
>>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>     > wrote:
>>     >
>>     > Hello,
>>     >
>>     > the following decision was taken on October 5, 2015 in private as
>>     the board
>>     > saw a need for confidentiality.
>>     >
>>     > It is now made public in accordance with our statutes.
>>     >
>>     > Proposal: Authorize Simon Phipps to explore Thunderbird options
>>     with Mozilla
>>     >
>>     > The Board of Directors at the time of voting consists of 7 seat
>>     holders
>>     > without deputies. In order to be quorate, the vote needs to have
>>     1/2 of the
>>     > Board of Directors members, which gives 4.
>>     >
>>     > A total of 5 Board of Directors members have participated in the
>>     > vote. The vote is quorate.
>>     >
>>     > A quorum could be reached with a simple majority of 3 votes.
>>     >
>>     > Result of vote: 5 approvals, 0 neutral, 0 disapprovals.
>>     > Decision: The request has been accepted.
>>     >
>>     > This message is to be archived by the BoD members and their
>> deputies.
>>     >
>>     > Florian
>
>
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Re: Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

In reply to this post by TomD
Tom Davies wrote:

> As most of you know - many organisations, particularly OpenSource ones,
> have departments/sections/sub-groups that focus on supporting external
> projects that are used within their own project.  For example Ubuntu,
> Redhat, openSuSE, Mageia, Fedora (and so on) each have people able to help
> their users deal with most issues to do with Thunderbird, LibreOffice and
> many other apps.  Typically such people can handle quite a lot of issues
> but sometimes seek help from 'upstream' (such as to here if it's a
> LibreOffice issue) or/and invite the user to take their issue upstream
> themselves. Many of such people stay within one OS and help with many apps
> within that OS but some support the same app in many different OSes.  There
> are even generic forums, such as "LinuxQuestions.org" that handle a lot of
> different OSes.
>
> This mailing list has helped quite a few people with "off topic" issues,
> such as helping with other apps or choosing a good "gateway" distro (such
> as Mint, Ubuntu etc) for people who want to break free of Windows or even
> helping with quite detailed "off topic" issues in very geeky Gnu&Linux OSes
> (such as Slackware).  Also there's a good chance that some people from
> Thunderbird might start offering weeu's support through our support
> systems, such as this mailing list - if we were welcoming and supportive.

While it's helpful to assist with problems which are (or turn out to be)
off-topic for LibreOffice, I don't think it's something to encourage.
The focus for this mailing list is supporting use of LibreOffice. The
others you mention above are specifically aimed at supporting a range of
applications.

> How would people here feel about this mailing list offering support to
> Thunderbird users, particularly ones who use LibreOffice as their Office
> Suite?

Do Thunderbird not have their own support systems? Surely anyone looking
for support with Thunderbird would be better off asking for help there.

I haven't closely followed how much they've been separated from Mozilla,
but if Thunderbird have lost their own infrastructure partnering with
LibreOffice / TDF could be a good way forward. I'd have thought would
work better as a separate project within the organisation though, with
separate mailing lists for LibreOffice and Thunderbird (like how there
are separate mailing lists for the various Mozilla applications, and the
various Apache projects each have their own mailing list). That way
those who can only provide support for one wouldn't have to wade through
all the posts relating to the other.

> Although Outlook includes calendar functionality (and a lot more) it seems
> that the most frequent problem that people ask about is just about emails.

For what it's worth, the Lightning extension for Thunderbird gives it
calendar functionality as well. I use it with SeaMonkey (another Mozilla
project combining Firefox and Thunderbird, derived from Mozilla Suite),
though just for myself - not in a corporate environment or for inviting
others to events, so no idea how well it works for those use cases.

> Such alternatives would still be available and supported but by having TB
> as our default it would dissolve one more perceived 'blocker' . People
> would no longer be forced into doing a tonne more research into which email
> client to choose, and TB would be the perfect one for the vast majority of
> them.

I'm not sure what you mean by Thunderbird being LibreOffice's "default"
mail client, but I don't think it should be bundled with the LibreOffice
installer - it would increase the download size for everyone, including
those who don't want it or have already installed it separately. Since I
already use SeaMonkey for mail, I have no need to download Thunderbird
alongside LibreOffice.

Suggesting Thunderbird on LibreOffice's web site might be useful though,
for those who are looking for something "including" a mail client. Or
hosting their downloads there if they're in need of that.

> Giving people a default and then allowing them to easily replace it as been
> hugely successful for "gateway distros" and i think it would probably be
> great for us too.  How do other people here feel?

Linux distros by definition include a large range of applications. Are
you going to propose bundling a web browser, image editor, media player,
etc. with LibreOffice as well?

--
Mark.


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Re: Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO?

In reply to this post by TomD
On 26/02/2016 13:15, Tom Davies wrote:

> How do people here feel about approaching the Thunderbird people to bring them into the LibreOffice project a bit more?  

Thunderbird first asked to be part of the OpenOffice.org project, back
when Sun was running things.  Since then, at random intervals, both
parties have floated similar proposals.

>Perhaps they could become the official default email client?

Only if:
a) the developers are going to convert Thunderbird to a real email
client. (^1);
b) the developers don't break things that enhance security, with new
releases;

> This mailing list has helped quite a few people with "off topic" issues,

An occasional question might be OK. However, if this list has both
Thunderbird and LibO requests, it is going to be hard for anybody to
follow. Twould be much better for TB and LibO to retain separate lists
across the board.

As it is, people are posting bad answers to LibO support lists, because
they understand not the question being asked. I shudder to think of how
bad the answers would be, if the responder thought the question was
about LibO internals, when TB was the subject of the question.

> Thunderbird users, particularly ones who use LibreOffice as their Office Suite?

How to get TB and LibO to play nicely with each other would be acceptable.

Explaining how to configure TB for Skype would not be OK for the LibO
support lists.  That belongs on one of the TB support lists.

> Another option might be for "The Document Foundation" to fully take on the
> whole of the Thunderbird project, and bring in all of their infrastructure
> and maybe kinda merge parts together where it's easy enough to do so.

Inasmuch as TB is looking for a new home, my impression is that that was
what Simon was tasked to do.

> Although Outlook includes calendar functionality (and a lot more) it seems

TB includes a calender, by default.
I don't know if the TB calender and contact list is still accessible
to/usable by LibO.

Probably the biggest difference between Outlook and Thunderbird, is that
the former will reliably retrieve email, regardless of the number of
accounts, or quantity of email in each account, whereas Thunderbird
chokes up and dies under the same conditions.



^1: Something that can retrieve 2+GB of email from each of 25 POP3
accounts, day in and day out, without losing anything, and without crashing.

jonathon

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Re: Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

In reply to this post by TomD
I'd be fully supportive of bringing Thunderbird into the LO family. I've
been a user of both for years and am very concerned about Thunderbird's
future.  The only Microsoft software I'm willing to actually spend money
on is Windows, and I wouldn't even do that if there were a Linux version
of my business software (equivalents aren't acceptable in this case;
office suite files might be mostly interchangeable, but that's not true
in other genres and I have to support my clients).

Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to contribute on the technical side
unless you need a data modeler, logical process modeler, or QA leader.  
My programming skills are way out of date (COBOL and FORTRAN, anyone?),
but I'm not so long out of the field that my other skills are even
starting to rust (I do use them informally in other areas).  So far I've
raised more Thunderbird questions than I'd be able to help with!

Dave Liesse


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Re: Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

In reply to this post by TomD
Hi Tom,

from a user perspective, a great idea. Hpwever:

  * 2 sets of developers - that should be fun :)
  * Does TDF actually want to do this? Cue howls from sections of the
    open source community if the answer is yes
  * Is there any value in TDF writing its own mail client?

It is good to get this kind of discussion going. I know this isn't the
way we do it in the open source world but I think there should be more
talk of how FLOSS works in an enterprise environment and this is a
valuable step forward

Cheers

On 27/02/16 00:15, Tom Davies wrote:

> Hi :)
> How do people here feel about approaching the Thunderbird people to bring
> them into the LibreOffice project a bit more?  Perhaps they could become
> the official default email client?
>
> As most of you know - many organisations, particularly OpenSource ones,
> have departments/sections/sub-groups that focus on supporting external
> projects that are used within their own project.  For example Ubuntu,
> Redhat, openSuSE, Mageia, Fedora (and so on) each have people able to help
> their users deal with most issues to do with Thunderbird, LibreOffice and
> many other apps.  Typically such people can handle quite a lot of issues
> but sometimes seek help from 'upstream' (such as to here if it's a
> LibreOffice issue) or/and invite the user to take their issue upstream
> themselves. Many of such people stay within one OS and help with many apps
> within that OS but some support the same app in many different OSes.  There
> are even generic forums, such as "LinuxQuestions.org" that handle a lot of
> different OSes.
>
> This mailing list has helped quite a few people with "off topic" issues,
> such as helping with other apps or choosing a good "gateway" distro (such
> as Mint, Ubuntu etc) for people who want to break free of Windows or even
> helping with quite detailed "off topic" issues in very geeky Gnu&Linux OSes
> (such as Slackware).  Also there's a good chance that some people from
> Thunderbird might start offering weeu's support through our support
> systems, such as this mailing list - if we were welcoming and supportive.
>
> How would people here feel about this mailing list offering support to
> Thunderbird users, particularly ones who use LibreOffice as their Office
> Suite?
>
> Another option might be for "The Document Foundation" to fully take on the
> whole of the Thunderbird project, and bring in all of their infrastructure
> and maybe kinda merge parts together where it's easy enough to do so.
>
> Personally i prefer this sort of approach  The Mozilla Foundation chose to
> split TB away from their web-browser (a good linuxy thing to do) so they
> could be more independent and therefore be used by people who use a wide
> range of other web-browsers - also helping those few Firefox users who were
> using something else to benefit more from a more streamlined Firefox.  A
> few years ago Mozilla decided to drop almost all it's support for TBeaving
> it all to just volunteers.  The TB volunteers have done a fantastic job but
> it would be great to give them a new home so they can "spread their wings"
> a lot more.
>
> To me it seems that either way, or something similar would greatly benefit
> both (or even all 3!) separate projects.
>
> It at long last would solve the main perceived 'blocker' that many people
> seem to struggle with when trying to move away from MS Office = that LO
> doesn't have a drop-in replacement for Outlook.
>
> Although Outlook includes calendar functionality (and a lot more) it seems
> that the most frequent problem that people ask about is just about emails.
> On this mailing list it's even been suggested the TDF create a new email
> client, but i think most of us already use TB anyway and it's probably
> better to just use something that has a good, well-proven track-record
> rather than try to cobble something together from scratch.
>
> Some of us inevitably try to point out that there are many other choices of
> email client to suit particular niche-markets - such as Claws (for a much
> smaller foot-print and thus faster on lower-spec machines) or Evolution
> (for a totally complete "drop in replacement" for Outlook in terms of
> look&feel (but has limited support and is not cross-platform, and can't
> even cope outside the Gnome DE so it limits which versions of Gnu&Linux it
> can be used on)) and some really fancy ones with more project-management
> functionality.
>
> Such alternatives would still be available and supported but by having TB
> as our default it would dissolve one more perceived 'blocker' . People
> would no longer be forced into doing a tonne more research into which email
> client to choose, and TB would be the perfect one for the vast majority of
> them.
>
> Microsoft and Apple seem to be successful largely because they remove
> people's options and give them "Freedom FROM choice".  The tech industry
> seems to value that above almost anything else.  As soon as there are
> choices they start grumbling about "fragmentation", and that it's difficult
> to choose "which is best" because different use-cases may have different
> requirements and therefore may need  make slightly different choices.  In
> every other industry monopolies are seen as bad - choice and diversity are
> applauded as being "good competition" allowing "market forces" to help
> drive innovation, efficiency and all that sort of thing.
>
> In the Gnu&Linux world we fight hard to make sure there is "Freedom OF
> choice", but a lot of people struggle when given options - they just want
> to settle with what they are given and then grumble about it!
>
> Giving people a default and then allowing them to easily replace it as been
> hugely successful for "gateway distros" and i think it would probably be
> great for us too.  How do other people here feel?
>
> Also, just out of curiosity, do we happen to already have people here who
> help other people with Thunderbird issues in another forum or support
> network?  We probably do already have some with some level of expertise on
> this mailing list, or at least people who can quickly learn how to resolve
> the most frequently asked issues.
> Many regards from
> Tom :)
> On 26 Feb 2016 10:25, "Florian Effenberger" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> the following decision was taken on October 5, 2015 in private as the board
> saw a need for confidentiality.
>
> It is now made public in accordance with our statutes.
>
> Proposal: Authorize Simon Phipps to explore Thunderbird options with Mozilla
>
> The Board of Directors at the time of voting consists of 7 seat holders
> without deputies. In order to be quorate, the vote needs to have 1/2 of the
> Board of Directors members, which gives 4.
>
> A total of 5 Board of Directors members have participated in the
> vote. The vote is quorate.
>
> A quorum could be reached with a simple majority of 3 votes.
>
> Result of vote: 5 approvals, 0 neutral, 0 disapprovals.
> Decision: The request has been accepted.
>
> This message is to be archived by the BoD members and their deputies.
>
> Florian
>


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Re: Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

On 26/02/2016 23:30, Tim Lloyd wrote:

>  * 2 sets of developers - that should be fun :)

It would be no more complicated that the Apache Software Foundation, or,
for that matter, The Mozilla Foundation.

>  * Does TDF actually want to do this?

Pretty much since OOo dropped (^1) the built-in email client, there has
been a small group of people advocating for OOo, and then LibO & AOo to
either include an email client, or provide better integration with
existing email clients.

>  * Is there any value in TDF writing its own mail client?

From my POV, for TDF to write a new email client would be a waste of
effort. OTOH, adopting an orphaned email client might be appropriate.

A couple of issues with TDF adoption of Thunderbird are:

* What will TDF policy on breaking extensions be?
I have no idea if it was TB, or the extensions that were upgraded on
Monday, but the three extensions I rely on the most are now completely
broken.
Firefox has a habit of breaking extensions at every upgrade. (I'm
ignoring the issue that most of the useful Firefox extensions will be
abandoned by the developer, because the road map eliminates the API that
utilized to provide the functionality that they offer).

For a corporate environment, breaking extensions when the software
updates is an absolute no-no. Especially when the extensions are
mission-critical.
For the consumer environment, breaking extensions is highly undesirable,
and extremely annoying behaviour;

* How compatible is the existing Thunderbird/Mozilla Foundation culture,
with the existing LibO/TDF culture?

One of the initial, and to an extent, ongoing issues with Apache
OpenOffice, is that the Apache Foundation culture was not compatible
with the OOo culture. It isn't just that the focus of other Apache
software is for the enterprise/big data market, and not the consumer
market.

* What does "better integration between LibO & TB" mean?
I'm pretty sure that what I understand by that phrase is not what the
people who use it understand it to mean.

* What is the most appropriate long term goal for Thunderbird:
-» To be a quasi-Outlook clone (^2);
-» To be a quasi-Pidgeon clone *^3);
-» To be both a quasi-Outlook clone and a quasi-Pidgeon clone;
-» To remain a basic news-reader/email client;

Can TDF provide the required support for attaining that goal?

* What is the road map for Thunderbird?
Does it stay a newsreader/email only client, or does include Chat, IRC,
IM, VOIP, VP, etc, to become an all-purpose communication agent?

I've seen proposed roadmaps for both propositions:
-» Email/news reader only;
-» All purpose communication agent;

^1: In as much as it was more than 15 years ago, that the email client
was allegedly removed from OOo, I am assuming that no remnants of it
remain.

^2: I don't use Outlook, so I have no idea what features Outlook
currently offers --- other than reliable retrieving email under all
conditions --- that Thunderbird does not currently support;

^3: I'm looking at the IM, VP, VOIP, Fax, etc extensions for TB that are
currently available. I have no idea if any of them either currently, or
formerly functioned as advertised.

jonathon

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Re: Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO?

In reply to this post by jonathon-6
On 2/26/2016 2:29 PM, toki <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Probably the biggest difference between Outlook and Thunderbird, is that
> the former will reliably retrieve email, regardless of the number of
> accounts, or quantity of email in each account,

Really? I know more than a dozen people who will call B$ on that one.

Outlook is notorious for corrupted PST files and Profiles, and trying to
rebuild a profile in Outlook is much more painful than doing so in TB -
mainly because it is so easy to backup TB profiles, and virtually
impossible to backup an Outlook profile.

> whereas Thunderbird chokes up and dies under the same conditions.

Please do not spread FUD. This is blatantly false.

We have been using TB in our smallish (60+) user environment since
before it went 1.0.

I currently have 28 separate IMAP accounts, and TB is pretty much rock
solid.

It isn't perfect, but no software I have ever used falls into that category.

Of course, we have only used it as a real email client is supposed to be
used (IMAP, not ridiculously dated POP)... ;)

Also, if you are using POP with the 'leave messages on server' option,
then you should be using IMAP. The POP protocol was not designed to work
that way, that feature was an afterthought...

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Re: Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO?

In reply to this post by jonathon-6
On 02/26/16 20:29, toki wrote:

> Probably the biggest difference between Outlook and Thunderbird, is that
> the former will reliably retrieve email, regardless of the number of
> accounts, or quantity of email in each account, whereas Thunderbird
> chokes up and dies under the same conditions.

Swap "former" and "latter" and I can confirm this on a vast number of
case: TB will play nicely where OL will crumble, crash, lock, lose
messages, etc...


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Re: Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

In reply to this post by jonathon-6
On 02/27/16 02:49, toki wrote:

> ^2: I don't use Outlook, so I have no idea what features Outlook
> currently offers --- other than reliable retrieving email under all
> conditions --- that Thunderbird does not currently support;

Reliability aside (I really don't trust OL and I've got lot of backing
experience to support that), I've yet to find a feature in OL that TB is
missing (apart integration with Exchange).

Talk to any OL fan: ask why they think OL it is better and they'll
always say "it's better" without being able to provide even the most
weak explanation. This is IMO a good indication that it's not.

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Italo Vignoli-6 Italo Vignoli-6
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Re: Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO?

In reply to this post by Andrea Venturoli
Outlook is the worst piece of software ever developed by a living organism
(I would not dare to say human being, as a human being would not be able to
put together that amount of crap, not to say a developer).

The simple fact that it does not support a single email standard - not even
those set in the early 70s - is a testament to that.

---
Italo Vignoli
[hidden email]
mobile +39.348.5653829
sent from mobile



Il 27 febbraio 2016 1:02:08 PM Andrea Venturoli <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

> On 02/26/16 20:29, toki wrote:
>
>> Probably the biggest difference between Outlook and Thunderbird, is that
>> the former will reliably retrieve email, regardless of the number of
>> accounts, or quantity of email in each account, whereas Thunderbird
>> chokes up and dies under the same conditions.
>
> Swap "former" and "latter" and I can confirm this on a vast number of
> case: TB will play nicely where OL will crumble, crash, lock, lose
> messages, etc...
>
>
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OT - Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

In reply to this post by jonathon-6
On 2/26/2016 8:49 PM, toki <[hidden email]> wrote:
> From my POV, for TDF to write a new email client would be a waste of
> effort.

+1

> A couple of issues with TDF adoption of Thunderbird are:
>
> * What will TDF policy on breaking extensions be?
> I have no idea if it was TB, or the extensions that were upgraded on
> Monday, but the three extensions I rely on the most are now completely
> broken.

It happens... Addon devs have plenty of advance warning when something
changes that will break something, but it is on them to be proactive.

Apparently the devs for your critical Addons aren't. Is that TB's fault?

> Firefox has a habit of breaking extensions at every upgrade.

Well, that is a major exaggeration, if not FUD, at present. It hasn't
really been a problem for a long time, although it was a big problem for
a while after they switched to the fast release schedule. But now that
they started down this road of requiring all Addons to be signed by
them, with no way, after version 45, to disable this stupidity - well
this is another problem. I'll probably be forced to start running and
unbranded version (not 'Firefox') that will still have the pref to
disable it. The ESR will also keep the pref, but I don't want the ESR.

> (I'm ignoring the issue that most of the useful Firefox extensions
> will be abandoned by the developer, because the road map eliminates
> the API that utilized to provide the functionality that they offer).

Maybe, maybe not. There is some concern with the deprecation of
XPCOM/XUL in favor of WebExtensions, yes, but they have committed to
providing most capabilities through the new API:

https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2015/08/21/the-future-of-developing-firefox-add-ons/

Main point to take away - don't shoot the messenger until you know for
certain they deserve to be shot.

> For a corporate environment, breaking extensions when the software
> updates is an absolute no-no. Especially when the extensions are
> mission-critical.

1. Such environments should be using the ESR version, which virtually
eliminates such breakage, and

2. Such environments should be managing updates (ie, testing to make
sure mission critical Addons aren't broken by an update).

If you are *not* doing both, that is on *you*, not Mozilla.

> For the consumer environment, breaking extensions is highly undesirable,
> and extremely annoying behaviour;

So don't use Addons that are prone to breakage.

> * What is the most appropriate long term goal for Thunderbird:
> -» To be a quasi-Outlook clone (^2);

No, to be *better*. There are some UI features in Outlook I rather like,
and I have made some feature requests for Thunderbird to provide
similar, but better, features - 3 of these are:

Mail/message listing/thread pane needs more organization in 3 vertical
pane view (like Outlook, Lotus Notes et al.)
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=213945

Allow customization of choices in View > Folders (Folder Views)
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1159713

Allow 'Pinning' (and re-ordering) one or more 'Folder Views' to the top
of the Folder Pane
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1163555

> -» To be a quasi-Pidgeon clone *^3);

The chat client? I kind of like the idea of chat integration, but I'd
muvh prefer that TB fix the major issues first (UI rewrite to JS,
Address Book rewrite to eliminate Mork DB, issues with replies/forwards
with inline attachments, IMAP performance improvements, etc

> ^2: I don't use Outlook, so I have no idea what features Outlook
> currently offers --- other than reliable retrieving email under all
> conditions --- that Thunderbird does not currently support;

Like I said earlier, my experience, and that of many dozens of others
over many years, is the exact opposite, but that could be due to our use
of IMAP vs your use (misuse if you are using 'leave messages on server'
mis-feature) of ancient POP.

Charles

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OT - Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

In reply to this post by Andrea Venturoli
On 2/27/2016 7:06 AM, Andrea Venturoli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Reliability aside (I really don't trust OL and I've got lot of backing
> experience to support that), I've yet to find a feature in OL that TB is
> missing (apart integration with Exchange).

Actually, Outlook was designed first and foremost as an Exchange Client.

In that environment, it has much less issues - but it still is prone to
weirdness.

But as a standalone client is where it falls down.

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Re: Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO?

In reply to this post by Tanstaafl
On 27/02/2016 02:05, Tanstaafl wrote:

>> whereas Thunderbird chokes up and dies under the same conditions.
>
> Please do not spread FUD. This is blatantly false.

Really? Can Thunderbrid really retrieve 2GB per hour from 20+ accounts,
without losing email?

Can Thunderbird really compact folders without losing data, whilst doing
that email retrieval operation?

If so, I'm really surprised, because the developers told me that those
were "won't fix" bugs.


jonathon


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Re: Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO?

On 2/27/2016 12:57 PM, toki <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 27/02/2016 02:05, Tanstaafl wrote:
>
>>> whereas Thunderbird chokes up and dies under the same conditions.
>>
>> Please do not spread FUD. This is blatantly false.

> Really?

Yes.

> Can Thunderbrid really retrieve 2GB per hour from 20+ accounts,
> without losing email?

You seriously receive 2+GB of *new* email per *hour*?

Not sure what kind of real world scenario that falls into - unless
you're a spammer and those are bounces from your latest spamathon.

But, as long as you have a big enough pipe, I don't see why it wouldn't
be able to do it, yes, without losing email.

> Can Thunderbird really compact folders without losing data, whilst doing
> that email retrieval operation?

As long as you aren't attempting to compact the Inbox that is currently
being written to (expecting otherwise is ignorant), and I guarantee you
Outlook would experience corruption in such a case too

> If so, I'm really surprised, because the developers told me that those
> were "won't fix" bugs.

Really? Care to share the link to said discussion? Because if your
complaint was about a corrupted Inbox when attempting to download 100+MB
of emails to it while compacting it at the same time, then they were
correct to tell you that.

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Re: Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

In reply to this post by TomD
One of the things I miss about Lotus SmartSuite is its' TeamMail function.

It also included Team Review, Team Consolidate and Team Security.

It might be old school, but it worked.

If Thunderbird could function within LibreOffice in a similar way, it
would be a great addition.

Support for SmartSuite ended 09/30/2014.


On 2/26/2016 8:15 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

> Hi :)
> How do people here feel about approaching the Thunderbird people to bring
> them into the LibreOffice project a bit more?  Perhaps they could become
> the official default email client?
>
> As most of you know - many organisations, particularly OpenSource ones,
> have departments/sections/sub-groups that focus on supporting external
> projects that are used within their own project.  For example Ubuntu,
> Redhat, openSuSE, Mageia, Fedora (and so on) each have people able to help
> their users deal with most issues to do with Thunderbird, LibreOffice and
> many other apps.  Typically such people can handle quite a lot of issues
> but sometimes seek help from 'upstream' (such as to here if it's a
> LibreOffice issue) or/and invite the user to take their issue upstream
> themselves. Many of such people stay within one OS and help with many apps
> within that OS but some support the same app in many different OSes.  There
> are even generic forums, such as "LinuxQuestions.org" that handle a lot of
> different OSes.
>
> This mailing list has helped quite a few people with "off topic" issues,
> such as helping with other apps or choosing a good "gateway" distro (such
> as Mint, Ubuntu etc) for people who want to break free of Windows or even
> helping with quite detailed "off topic" issues in very geeky Gnu&Linux OSes
> (such as Slackware).  Also there's a good chance that some people from
> Thunderbird might start offering weeu's support through our support
> systems, such as this mailing list - if we were welcoming and supportive.
>
> How would people here feel about this mailing list offering support to
> Thunderbird users, particularly ones who use LibreOffice as their Office
> Suite?
>
> Another option might be for "The Document Foundation" to fully take on the
> whole of the Thunderbird project, and bring in all of their infrastructure
> and maybe kinda merge parts together where it's easy enough to do so.
>
> Personally i prefer this sort of approach  The Mozilla Foundation chose to
> split TB away from their web-browser (a good linuxy thing to do) so they
> could be more independent and therefore be used by people who use a wide
> range of other web-browsers - also helping those few Firefox users who were
> using something else to benefit more from a more streamlined Firefox.  A
> few years ago Mozilla decided to drop almost all it's support for TBeaving
> it all to just volunteers.  The TB volunteers have done a fantastic job but
> it would be great to give them a new home so they can "spread their wings"
> a lot more.
>
> To me it seems that either way, or something similar would greatly benefit
> both (or even all 3!) separate projects.
>
> It at long last would solve the main perceived 'blocker' that many people
> seem to struggle with when trying to move away from MS Office = that LO
> doesn't have a drop-in replacement for Outlook.
>
> Although Outlook includes calendar functionality (and a lot more) it seems
> that the most frequent problem that people ask about is just about emails.
> On this mailing list it's even been suggested the TDF create a new email
> client, but i think most of us already use TB anyway and it's probably
> better to just use something that has a good, well-proven track-record
> rather than try to cobble something together from scratch.
>
> Some of us inevitably try to point out that there are many other choices of
> email client to suit particular niche-markets - such as Claws (for a much
> smaller foot-print and thus faster on lower-spec machines) or Evolution
> (for a totally complete "drop in replacement" for Outlook in terms of
> look&feel (but has limited support and is not cross-platform, and can't
> even cope outside the Gnome DE so it limits which versions of Gnu&Linux it
> can be used on)) and some really fancy ones with more project-management
> functionality.
>
> Such alternatives would still be available and supported but by having TB
> as our default it would dissolve one more perceived 'blocker' . People
> would no longer be forced into doing a tonne more research into which email
> client to choose, and TB would be the perfect one for the vast majority of
> them.
>
> Microsoft and Apple seem to be successful largely because they remove
> people's options and give them "Freedom FROM choice".  The tech industry
> seems to value that above almost anything else.  As soon as there are
> choices they start grumbling about "fragmentation", and that it's difficult
> to choose "which is best" because different use-cases may have different
> requirements and therefore may need  make slightly different choices.  In
> every other industry monopolies are seen as bad - choice and diversity are
> applauded as being "good competition" allowing "market forces" to help
> drive innovation, efficiency and all that sort of thing.
>
> In the Gnu&Linux world we fight hard to make sure there is "Freedom OF
> choice", but a lot of people struggle when given options - they just want
> to settle with what they are given and then grumble about it!
>
> Giving people a default and then allowing them to easily replace it as been
> hugely successful for "gateway distros" and i think it would probably be
> great for us too.  How do other people here feel?
>
> Also, just out of curiosity, do we happen to already have people here who
> help other people with Thunderbird issues in another forum or support
> network?  We probably do already have some with some level of expertise on
> this mailing list, or at least people who can quickly learn how to resolve
> the most frequently asked issues.
> Many regards from
> Tom :)
> On 26 Feb 2016 10:25, "Florian Effenberger" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> the following decision was taken on October 5, 2015 in private as the board
> saw a need for confidentiality.
>
> It is now made public in accordance with our statutes.
>
> Proposal: Authorize Simon Phipps to explore Thunderbird options with Mozilla
>
> The Board of Directors at the time of voting consists of 7 seat holders
> without deputies. In order to be quorate, the vote needs to have 1/2 of the
> Board of Directors members, which gives 4.
>
> A total of 5 Board of Directors members have participated in the
> vote. The vote is quorate.
>
> A quorum could be reached with a simple majority of 3 votes.
>
> Result of vote: 5 approvals, 0 neutral, 0 disapprovals.
> Decision: The request has been accepted.
>
> This message is to be archived by the BoD members and their deputies.
>
> Florian
>


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Re: Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

On 2/27/2016 2:10 PM, Paul D. Mirowsky <[hidden email]> wrote:
> One of the things I miss about Lotus SmartSuite is its' TeamMail function.

A quick google suggests this is nothing more than Shared Mailbox
functionality. That is Server functionality, TB is a mail client.

> It also included Team Review, Team Consolidate and Team Security.

Sound like Groupware functionality... ?

> It might be old school, but it worked.
>
> If Thunderbird could function within LibreOffice in a similar way, it
> would be a great addition.

Lotus SmartSuite was am integrated mail server/groupware solution.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

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