Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

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NoOp NoOp
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Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.

I realiz(s)e that the existing:
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom
posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
which includes this bit:
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3

<quote>
2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?

Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom,
and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially
people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would
qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if
they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted
text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will
not work, if you place the quoted text below your response.

Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but
since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no
idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the
referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on.
In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for
people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire
article, if the context is not obvious.

And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see
the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.)

Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of
quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote,
in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text
you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer
to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can
delete these parts.

So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste
time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can
achieve by such simple means?
</quote>

and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the
desired guideline.

Samples of similar on other lists:

http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html
<quote>
Top-posting vs bottom-posting.

    Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it
the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates
about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the
forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting.
</quote>

http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists
<quote>
Proper quoting:

Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is
easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules:

....

    Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to.
...
</quote>

and even:
http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html
<quote>
Replying
When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your
response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual
question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are
talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum
possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate,
remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections.
</quote>

Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent
transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's
worth mentioning anyway.

Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general
posting guidelines on the
<http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/> page with complete
posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists.

Added Note: I'd originally sent this to the users list as IMO that is
where the guidelines are needed most. So there may be some cross posting
in replies.





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Robert Parker Robert Parker
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

There is one thing more irritating than top posting. People who rant about it.

On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 7:16 AM, NoOp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
> consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.
>
> I realiz(s)e that the existing:
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
> doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom
> posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to:
> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
> which includes this bit:
> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3
>
> <quote>
> 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?
>
> Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom,
> and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially
> people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would
> qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if
> they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted
> text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will
> not work, if you place the quoted text below your response.
>
> Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but
> since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no
> idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the
> referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on.
> In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for
> people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire
> article, if the context is not obvious.
>
> And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see
> the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.)
>
> Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of
> quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote,
> in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text
> you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer
> to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can
> delete these parts.
>
> So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste
> time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can
> achieve by such simple means?
> </quote>
>
> and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the
> desired guideline.
>
> Samples of similar on other lists:
>
> http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html
> <quote>
> Top-posting vs bottom-posting.
>
>    Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it
> the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates
> about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the
> forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
> trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
> equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
> your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
> The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting.
> </quote>
>
> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists
> <quote>
> Proper quoting:
>
> Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is
> easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules:
>
> ....
>
>    Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to.
> ...
> </quote>
>
> and even:
> http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html
> <quote>
> Replying
> When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your
> response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual
> question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are
> talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum
> possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate,
> remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections.
> </quote>
>
> Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent
> transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's
> worth mentioning anyway.
>
> Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general
> posting guidelines on the
> <http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/> page with complete
> posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
> at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists.
>
> Added Note: I'd originally sent this to the users list as IMO that is
> where the guidelines are needed most. So there may be some cross posting
> in replies.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
>
>



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NoOp NoOp
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

On 09/08/2011 07:07 AM, Robert Parker wrote:
> There is one thing more irritating than top posting. People who rant about it.

There was no "rant". Perhaps you might take time to read the post *and*
review the threads in these lists (particularly the 'users' list?

Other lists (as I've demonstrated) provide clear instructions the
guidelines list users are expected to follow. The point is that LO does
not, and instead uses a link to a vague wiki at the bottom of list
messages rather than posting guidelines upfront. This tends to lead to
ongoing debates on how list posters are to behave.

As mentioned: I don't really care if the consensuses is to only top-post
on these lists. My primary consideration is to have an established set
of posting guidelines (as in the examples provided) so that we no longer
have to resort to the 'mine is better' model. It makes it easier for all
users; particularly new users as it's then rather simple to point to the
guideline url/page and *politely* ask them to abide by the list guidelines.

Why is it that after all of the previous debates, posts, aggravation,
that LO can't just put up a page regarding list guidelines?

Thats a question btw, not a "rant".

Following /not/ snipped on purpose:

>
> On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 7:16 AM, NoOp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
>> consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.
>>
>> I realiz(s)e that the existing:
>> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
>> doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom
>> posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>> That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to:
>> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
>> which includes this bit:
>> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3
>>
>> <quote>
>> 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?
>>
>> Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom,
>> and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially
>> people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would
>> qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if
>> they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted
>> text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will
>> not work, if you place the quoted text below your response.
>>
>> Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but
>> since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no
>> idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the
>> referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on.
>> In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for
>> people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire
>> article, if the context is not obvious.
>>
>> And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see
>> the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.)
>>
>> Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of
>> quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote,
>> in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text
>> you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer
>> to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can
>> delete these parts.
>>
>> So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste
>> time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can
>> achieve by such simple means?
>> </quote>
>>
>> and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the
>> desired guideline.
>>
>> Samples of similar on other lists:
>>
>> http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html
>> <quote>
>> Top-posting vs bottom-posting.
>>
>>    Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it
>> the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates
>> about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the
>> forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
>> trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
>> equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
>> your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
>> The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting.
>> </quote>
>>
>> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists
>> <quote>
>> Proper quoting:
>>
>> Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is
>> easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules:
>>
>> ....
>>
>>    Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to.
>> ...
>> </quote>
>>
>> and even:
>> http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html
>> <quote>
>> Replying
>> When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your
>> response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual
>> question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are
>> talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum
>> possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate,
>> remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections.
>> </quote>
>>
>> Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent
>> transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's
>> worth mentioning anyway.
>>
>> Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general
>> posting guidelines on the
>> <http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/> page with complete
>> posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
>> at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists.
>>
>> Added Note: I'd originally sent this to the users list as IMO that is
>> where the guidelines are needed most. So there may be some cross posting
>> in replies.
...



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Bob Williams Bob Williams
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by NoOp
On Thursday 08 Sep 2011 01:16:27 NoOp wrote:
> For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
> consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.

[trimmed excellent discussion of the merits of trimming and interspersing
replies]

NoOp, I applaud your attempt to get some consistency of posting in the LO
lists, but I fear you're flogging a dead horse. This is one of those topics
that will never go away, and I have seen it discussed ad nauseam | infinitum
on many different lists since I starting using Usenet over ten years ago.

Nevertheless, I wish you luck. :)

Bob

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snowshed snowshed
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by NoOp
On 9/7/11 6:16 PM, NoOp wrote:
> For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
> consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.

<snip>

Sadly, it won't matter what rules are in effect if there is no desire to
enforce them.


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Andrew Pitonyak Andrew Pitonyak
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by NoOp

The links do not lead me to assume that top posting is expected. If the
documentation group desires bottom posting only, the user should be
informed when the register. Even then, I expect that most people will
miss it. Expecting someone to follow a link and then follow another link
seems a wee bit unlikely.

Bottom posting is great when a message is not read in context of the
other messages. When I read threaded messages, it is annoying to wade
through the message history before I arrive at the content of interest.
I might prefer, therefore, that people be prodded into seriously
shortening content from all previous posters to only contain the
portions relevant to their reply.


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snowshed snowshed
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

On 9/9/11 3:40 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:

>
> The links do not lead me to assume that top posting is expected. If the
> documentation group desires bottom posting only, the user should be
> informed when the register. Even then, I expect that most people will
> miss it. Expecting someone to follow a link and then follow another link
> seems a wee bit unlikely.
>
> Bottom posting is great when a message is not read in context of the
> other messages. When I read threaded messages, it is annoying to wade
> through the message history before I arrive at the content of interest.
> I might prefer, therefore, that people be prodded into seriously
> shortening content from all previous posters to only contain the
> portions relevant to their reply.

If you read the Learn to Quote link on the netiquette page, it gets into
why bottom posting and interspersion is or should be the desired way.

But like you, I think the LO people need to specify it directly on the
page, even better would be for them to actually write their own
netiquette page.



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RichardH RichardH
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by Andrew Pitonyak
Yeah! A man without unnecessary limitations.
I believe cropping is a solution to the problem.
I understand, but dislike being forced to read
the whole thread. There is an argument for
reading the "whole thing" but I believe that
it does not need to be dogma.

regards,
Richard.

On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 5:10 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <[hidden email]
> wrote:

>
> The links do not lead me to assume that top posting is expected. If the
> documentation group desires bottom posting only, the user should be informed
> when the register. Even then, I expect that most people will miss it.
> Expecting someone to follow a link and then follow another link seems a wee
> bit unlikely.
>
> Bottom posting is great when a message is not read in context of the other
> messages. When I read threaded messages, it is annoying to wade through the
> message history before I arrive at the content of interest. I might prefer,
> therefore, that people be prodded into seriously shortening content from all
> previous posters to only contain the portions relevant to their reply.
>
>
> --
> Andrew Pitonyak
> My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/**AndrewMacro.odt<http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt>
> Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
>
>
>
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> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>
>

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Andrew Pitonyak Andrew Pitonyak
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by snowshed

On 09/09/2011 06:05 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

> On 9/9/11 3:40 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:
>>
>> The links do not lead me to assume that top posting is expected. If the
>> documentation group desires bottom posting only, the user should be
>> informed when the register. Even then, I expect that most people will
>> miss it. Expecting someone to follow a link and then follow another link
>> seems a wee bit unlikely.
>>
>> Bottom posting is great when a message is not read in context of the
>> other messages. When I read threaded messages, it is annoying to wade
>> through the message history before I arrive at the content of interest.
>> I might prefer, therefore, that people be prodded into seriously
>> shortening content from all previous posters to only contain the
>> portions relevant to their reply.
>
> If you read the Learn to Quote link on the netiquette page, it gets
> into why bottom posting and interspersion is or should be the desired
> way.

Read it many times. I remain unconvinced. Their points assume a single
style of reading email.

I read my email in a threaded view. Usually, I have already read
everything but the latest reply, so, the the top portion of the message
is not required (and is therefore ignored). Unfortunately, it is common
for there to be so much of the message included, that I need to scroll
to view the new text. In other words, it is less efficient and it wastes
my time. (to put it into context, I have counted the steps required to
get to my car when I leave work by different routes)

I receive a very large volume of email. It is usually less than 1000
messages a day, but, still, the time and physical movements to scroll to
the bottom of each message is sufficient to stress my wrists and hands.
So, if I can skim the new content in less than two seconds, and it takes
me longer than that to even get to the new content, well, then I more
than double the time I spend skimming email.

The bigger concern for me is neither bottom nor top posting, it is
trimming the message if you do not top post. With a top post, I can
trivially see the response.

> But like you, I think the LO people need to specify it directly on the
> page, even better would be for them to actually write their own
> netiquette page.

If they care, they should write it. Yes.

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Andrew Pitonyak Andrew Pitonyak
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by RichardH
On 09/09/2011 10:01 PM, Richard wrote:
> Yeah! A man without unnecessary limitations.

Sadly, I have many unnecessary limitations :-)


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snowshed snowshed
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by Andrew Pitonyak
On 9/9/11 11:24 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:

>
> On 09/09/2011 06:05 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
>> On 9/9/11 3:40 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:
>>>
>>> The links do not lead me to assume that top posting is expected. If the
>>> documentation group desires bottom posting only, the user should be
>>> informed when the register. Even then, I expect that most people will
>>> miss it. Expecting someone to follow a link and then follow another link
>>> seems a wee bit unlikely.
>>>
>>> Bottom posting is great when a message is not read in context of the
>>> other messages. When I read threaded messages, it is annoying to wade
>>> through the message history before I arrive at the content of interest.
>>> I might prefer, therefore, that people be prodded into seriously
>>> shortening content from all previous posters to only contain the
>>> portions relevant to their reply.
>>
>> If you read the Learn to Quote link on the netiquette page, it gets
>> into why bottom posting and interspersion is or should be the desired
>> way.
>
> Read it many times. I remain unconvinced. Their points assume a single
> style of reading email.

I don't think I agree totally.  I think their points apply to reading
newsgroups, not email. :-)  I think the two should be kept separate
since they server different purposes.

> I read my email in a threaded view. Usually, I have already read
> everything but the latest reply, so, the the top portion of the message
> is not required (and is therefore ignored). Unfortunately, it is common
> for there to be so much of the message included, that I need to scroll
> to view the new text. In other words, it is less efficient and it wastes
> my time. (to put it into context, I have counted the steps required to
> get to my car when I leave work by different routes)
 >

> I receive a very large volume of email. It is usually less than 1000
> messages a day, but, still, the time and physical movements to scroll to
> the bottom of each message is sufficient to stress my wrists and hands.
> So, if I can skim the new content in less than two seconds, and it takes
> me longer than that to even get to the new content, well, then I more
> than double the time I spend skimming email.
>
> The bigger concern for me is neither bottom nor top posting, it is
> trimming the message if you do not top post. With a top post, I can
> trivially see the response.

"I feel your pain!"  A poster in another newsgroup said that to me, and
I've been looking for a place to use it!   LOL

I find top posted posts harder to follow the flow of the message.  My
preference would be interspersion, since your reply is right below the
part of a post you are replying to.  Top posting is like the old Karnak
routine Johnny Carson had on the Tonight Show.  He'd give the answer,
then tell you the question inside a sealed envelope.  Most of the time,
when I read a top posted message, I end up scrolling through the message
anyway, wondering "What the H*** is he/she talking about?"    :-D

So I suspect it's not going to make much difference about message length
whether you top, bottom, or intersperse you posts, it's going to be the
poster and the tools used (i.e. what agent you are using to read the
posts) that will ultimately make a post easy to read or not.

Seriously, though, I checked the source for your message, and we both
are using Thunderbird 6.

Within the last week, I learned about the QuoteCollapse add-on.  It
takes each quoted section of a reply, and collapses it to one line.
There's a little plus sign that will let you expand that section to full
length.  It's great for those posts where there's been no trimming, but
lots of replies.

At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of trimming,
too.

Add it to your TB, I'd like to know what you think of it.  It may do a
lot to solve your issues and concerns.

If the author for Quote Colors would make that add-on compatible with TB
6, then replying would be easier, IMO.


>> But like you, I think the LO people need to specify it directly on the
>> page, even better would be for them to actually write their own
>> netiquette page.
>
> If they care, they should write it. Yes.

Or, given the resources they have, a dedicated netiquette page is just
too far down the priority list, and/or no one has offered to do it.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
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Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


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Robert Holtzman Robert Holtzman
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 05:31:50AM -0600, Ken Springer wrote:

           ..........snip.........
>
> At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of
> trimming, too.

Of course that would screw non-TB users.

         ........snip........

--
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Friedrich Strohmaier Friedrich Strohmaier
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by NoOp
Hi NoOp, *,

I appreciate Your initiative..

Am 08.09.2011 02:16 schrieb NoOp:
> For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
> consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.

Those who insist, won't consider. I think it's a good Idea to provide
those with kind of guidance or recommendation who don`t know better, and
want to express their respect to the attention the audience invests in
their request.

[..]

> posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> That page doesn't help much either,

You ore someone else are warmly invited to change this. I hacked it
together after nobody wanted to volunteer, when I setup that footer
entries. So doing the footer thing brought me more work which could have
been done from someone else with no special permissions and skills. It
*intionally* is a wiki site. ;o))

[..]

> Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general
> posting guidelines on the
> <http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/> page with complete
> posting guidelines.

+1 on that

> Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
> at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists.

I think this is not a matter of conensus but more kind of
recommendation, how to save the readers effort to catch the message and
use the time saved to give useful comments. ;o))

> Added Note: I'd originally sent this to the users list as IMO that is
> where the guidelines are needed most.

definitly.

> So there may be some cross posting in replies.

No "genuine" crossposting so at least consistent threads per mailing
list. The better lazy way :o))

Regarding the "learn to quote" and similar posting guidelines of that kind:
They are collected experience of efficient mail/newsgroup communication
over a long time - nothing more and nothing less.

Long stories could be told about this topic - I try to make it short:

As one reading a high number of mails a day and one having project
experience (since 2003 OOo membership included) enabling me to give
answers at many places, I mostly skip mails which show me the poster
doesn't worry about my time and effort reading his post. So I rise my
daily range about 50 mails, reading and responding the ones of those
writers which show respect to my effort.


Gruß/regards
--
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images

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snowshed snowshed
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by Robert Holtzman
On 9/10/11 12:25 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 05:31:50AM -0600, Ken Springer wrote:
>
>             ..........snip.........
>>
>> At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of
>> trimming, too.
>
> Of course that would screw non-TB users.

Not all of them.  And look at the number of untrimmed posts anyway.  :-)

I wasn't necessarily saying people should stop trimming altogether, it
can still be useful.  But it would eliminate the writer's quandary of
should I trim this or should I not?

And, there's nothing to stop users who have software that doesn't
collapse a quote from looking around to find software that does.  I
would think there are dedicated newsgroup reading software that has this
feature.


--
Ken

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Thunderbird 6.0.2
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Andrew Pitonyak Andrew Pitonyak
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by snowshed


On 09/10/2011 07:31 AM, Ken Springer wrote:
> On 9/9/11 11:24 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:
>>
>> On 09/09/2011 06:05 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
>> Read it many times. I remain unconvinced. Their points assume a single
>> style of reading email.
>
> I don't think I agree totally.  I think their points apply to reading
> newsgroups, not email. :-)  I think the two should be kept separate
> since they server different purposes.

Ahh, yes indeed. You are correct sir.

>
> Seriously, though, I checked the source for your message, and we both
> are using Thunderbird 6.
>
> Within the last week, I learned about the QuoteCollapse add-on.  It
> takes each quoted section of a reply, and collapses it to one line.
> There's a little plus sign that will let you expand that section to
> full length.  It's great for those posts where there's been no
> trimming, but lots of replies.

I usually avoid add-ons because I consider them a potential cause for
instability (well, it seemed true for web browsers). In this case,
however, I made an exception. Very nice indeed. That certainly helps
with all those gratuitous posters.

>> If they care, they should write it. Yes.
>
> Or, given the resources they have, a dedicated netiquette page is just
> too far down the priority list, and/or no one has offered to do it.
>

Those that feel strongly about it should push it through and do the
work. I do not want them to make the decision that only bottom posting
should be done. I have no desire for them to do this, I just want people
to play nice.

--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document:http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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snowshed snowshed
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

On 9/11/11 10:35 AM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:

>
>
> On 09/10/2011 07:31 AM, Ken Springer wrote:
>> On 9/9/11 11:24 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:
>>>
>>> On 09/09/2011 06:05 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
>>> Read it many times. I remain unconvinced. Their points assume a single
>>> style of reading email.
>>
>> I don't think I agree totally. I think their points apply to reading
>> newsgroups, not email. :-) I think the two should be kept separate
>> since they server different purposes.
>
> Ahh, yes indeed. You are correct sir.
>
>>
>> Seriously, though, I checked the source for your message, and we both
>> are using Thunderbird 6.
>>
>> Within the last week, I learned about the QuoteCollapse add-on. It
>> takes each quoted section of a reply, and collapses it to one line.
>> There's a little plus sign that will let you expand that section to
>> full length. It's great for those posts where there's been no
>> trimming, but lots of replies.
>
> I usually avoid add-ons because I consider them a potential cause for
> instability (well, it seemed true for web browsers). In this case,
> however, I made an exception. Very nice indeed. That certainly helps
> with all those gratuitous posters.
>
>>> If they care, they should write it. Yes.
>>
>> Or, given the resources they have, a dedicated netiquette page is just
>> too far down the priority list, and/or no one has offered to do it.
>>
>
> Those that feel strongly about it should push it through and do the
> work. I do not want them to make the decision that only bottom posting
> should be done. I have no desire for them to do this, I just want people
> to play nice.

Even if they did push it through, if no one enforces the eventual rule,
the time will be wasted.  I'd prefer interspersion, as I almost always
have to scroll around somewhere in order to remember what was being
replied to.


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Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


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Tanstaafl Tanstaafl
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by snowshed
On 2011-09-10 7:31 AM, Ken Springer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of trimming,
> too.

No, no, NO... trimming should still be required.

All QuoteCollapse does is spare me a lot of pain when I encounter morons
who refuse to trim posts...

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Tanstaafl Tanstaafl
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by snowshed
On 2011-09-11 9:47 PM, Ken Springer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Even if they did push it through, if no one enforces the eventual rule,
> the time will be wasted.  I'd prefer interspersion, as I almost always
> have to scroll around somewhere in order to remember what was being
> replied to.

Most people who advocate for bottom posting really mean inline, aka
'interspersed' posting anyway...

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Robert Holtzman Robert Holtzman
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 05:06:49PM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 2011-09-11 9:47 PM, Ken Springer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >Even if they did push it through, if no one enforces the eventual rule,
> >the time will be wasted.  I'd prefer interspersion, as I almost always
> >have to scroll around somewhere in order to remember what was being
> >replied to.
>
> Most people who advocate for bottom posting really mean inline, aka
> 'interspersed' posting anyway...

I think you will find that most people are smart enough to know the
difference.

--
Bob Holtzman
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check the price of the beer.
Key ID: 8D549279

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snowshed snowshed
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by Tanstaafl
On 9/12/11 2:10 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 2011-09-10 7:31 AM, Ken Springer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of trimming,
>> too.
>
> No, no, NO... trimming should still be required.
>
> All QuoteCollapse does is spare me a lot of pain when I encounter morons
> who refuse to trim posts...

The inherent problem with trimming is the danger of a message being
trimmed to the point where the point of the conversation is lost, or the
meaning of the conversation has changed.

Another problem is when a new viewer comes to the conversation somewhere
in the middle.  Instead of having *all* of the conversation available to
view in a single window, the new viewer now has to sort back though all
the reference messages and try to keep track of which message comes first.

I would rather have them available in one place, rather than scattered
all over the place.  :-)

FYI, I see no reason to call someone a moron because you don't like the
way another person replies to a message.  :-)


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