Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

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Tanstaafl Tanstaafl
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

On 2011-09-12 8:42 PM, Robert Holtzman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 05:06:49PM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
>> On 2011-09-11 9:47 PM, Ken Springer<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>> Even if they did push it through, if no one enforces the eventual rule,
>>> the time will be wasted.  I'd prefer interspersion, as I almost always
>>> have to scroll around somewhere in order to remember what was being
>>> replied to.

>> Most people who advocate for bottom posting really mean inline, aka
>> 'interspersed' posting anyway...

> I think you will find that most people are smart enough to know the
> difference.

I think you overestimate the intelligence of 'most people'.

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NoOp NoOp
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by NoOp
Top posted on purpose.

After all that + discussions on the -user list it seems that LO doesn't
really care to provide any specific rules/regulations/FAQ regarding
Top/Interspersed/Bottom posting on any of their lists. So I'll abandon
the topic and in the future when this issue comes up simply reply that
on LO lists it's WFC (WhoFinallyCares - to be polite).

I must say that I *am* surprised that LO haven't the technical/political
ability/tenacity to properly post information regarding this issue in
the same manner as the links provided (OOo, Mozilla, Ubuntu, et al).

May you all endure the continued threads that are liable to crop up
regarding this in each list in the future.



On 09/07/2011 05:16 PM, NoOp wrote:

> For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
> consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.
>
> I realiz(s)e that the existing:
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
> doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom
> posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to:
> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
> which includes this bit:
> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3
>
> <quote>
> 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?
>
> Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom,
> and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially
> people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would
> qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if
> they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted
> text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will
> not work, if you place the quoted text below your response.
>
> Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but
> since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no
> idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the
> referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on.
> In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for
> people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire
> article, if the context is not obvious.
>
> And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see
> the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.)
>
> Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of
> quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote,
> in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text
> you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer
> to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can
> delete these parts.
>
> So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste
> time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can
> achieve by such simple means?
> </quote>
>
> and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the
> desired guideline.
>
> Samples of similar on other lists:
>
> http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html
> <quote>
> Top-posting vs bottom-posting.
>
>     Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it
> the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates
> about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the
> forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
> trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
> equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
> your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
> The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting.
> </quote>
>
> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists
> <quote>
> Proper quoting:
>
> Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is
> easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules:
>
> ....
>
>     Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to.
> ...
> </quote>
>
> and even:
> http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html
> <quote>
> Replying
> When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your
> response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual
> question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are
> talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum
> possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate,
> remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections.
> </quote>
>
> Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent
> transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's
> worth mentioning anyway.
>
> Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general
> posting guidelines on the
> <http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/> page with complete
> posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
> at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists.
>
> Added Note: I'd originally sent this to the users list as IMO that is
> where the guidelines are needed most. So there may be some cross posting
> in replies.


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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

Hi Gary,


NoOp wrote (30-09-11 03:46)

> After all that + discussions on the -user list it seems that LO doesn't
> really care to provide any specific rules/regulations/FAQ regarding
> Top/Interspersed/Bottom posting on any of their lists.
>[...]

Has not yet been forgotten.
But to manage expectations: it won't be a medicine for all cures you
know ;-)

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Tim Schofield Tim Schofield
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by NoOp
On 30 September 2011 02:46, NoOp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I must say that I *am* surprised that LO haven't the technical/political
> ability/tenacity to properly post information regarding this issue in
> the same manner as the links provided (OOo, Mozilla, Ubuntu, et al).
>

It may be possible they have important things to do?

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Dennis E. Hamilton Dennis E. Hamilton
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

<orcmid comments-in-line="true" />

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Schofield [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 14:03
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

On 30 September 2011 02:46, NoOp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I must say that I *am* surprised that LO haven't the technical/political
> ability/tenacity to properly post information regarding this issue in
> the same manner as the links provided (OOo, Mozilla, Ubuntu, et al).
>

It may be possible they have important things to do?

<orcmid>
  How about a monthly FAQ message that
  establishes what constitutes appropriate
  etiquette?  This should be customized
  for each list separately.

  There could be all facts applicable to
  the specific list, including the
  ever-popular unsubscribe instructions,
  what the subject matter of the list is,
  writing subject lines, finding other places
  to play and additional sources, etc.

  It would be good to say what actions
  arouse moderator actions and that nothing
  else does.
</orcmid>

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Mark Preston Mark Preston
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

How about you just read the goddamn RFC's for email protocol and stop
whining about it?

On 01/10/2011 23:26, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

> <orcmid comments-in-line="true" />
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Schofield [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 14:03
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
>
> On 30 September 2011 02:46, NoOp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I must say that I *am* surprised that LO haven't the technical/political
>> ability/tenacity to properly post information regarding this issue in
>> the same manner as the links provided (OOo, Mozilla, Ubuntu, et al).
>>
>
> It may be possible they have important things to do?
>
> <orcmid>
>   How about a monthly FAQ message that
>   establishes what constitutes appropriate
>   etiquette?  This should be customized
>   for each list separately.
>
>   There could be all facts applicable to
>   the specific list, including the
>   ever-popular unsubscribe instructions,
>   what the subject matter of the list is,
>   writing subject lines, finding other places
>   to play and additional sources, etc.
>
>   It would be good to say what actions
>   arouse moderator actions and that nothing
>   else does.
> </orcmid>
>

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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: Top Posting...

>> On 30 September 2011 02:46, NoOp<[hidden email]>  wrote:

>>> I must say that I *am* surprised that LO haven't the technical/political
>>> ability/tenacity to properly post information regarding this issue in
>>> the same manner as the links provided (OOo, Mozilla, Ubuntu, et al).

I have published a comprehensive Mailing List Netiquette, which should
satisfy your needs.

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette

Of course, a mailing list netiquette is just a reference document, and
we cannot kill people who ignore it (the majority of users ignore the
simple existence of the netiquette).

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Italo Vignoli
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Stefan Weigel Stefan Weigel
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Re: Top Posting...

Am 02.10.2011 18:07, schrieb Italo Vignoli:

> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette

Bravo! Thanks a lot.

Stefan


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Dennis E. Hamilton Dennis E. Hamilton
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by Mark Preston
Which RFC's are you talking about?  Numbers please.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Preston [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 06:12
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

How about you just read the goddamn RFC's for email protocol and stop
whining about it?

[ ... ]


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Dennis E. Hamilton Dennis E. Hamilton
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Re: Top Posting...

In reply to this post by italovignoli
Thank you for the Mailing List Netiquette page.

 1. I would have preferred that the last paragraph under "Top-Posting vs. Bottom-posting" followed the "Avoid Advocacy" guidance better.  On the whole, I find the page admirable, civil, and useful.

 2. I have an offer.  What formatting by senders will most powerfully serve those on [libreoffice-accessibility]? What do those with access limitations confirm to be the best that works for all of them?  Whatever *that* is, I will do everything in my power to honor.


 - Dennis E. Hamilton
   tools for document interoperability,  <http://nfoWorks.org/>
   [hidden email]  gsm: +1-206-779-9430  @orcmid




-----Original Message-----
From: Italo Vignoli [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 09:07
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting...

[ ... ]

I have published a comprehensive Mailing List Netiquette, which should
satisfy your needs.

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette

Of course, a mailing list netiquette is just a reference document, and
we cannot kill people who ignore it (the majority of users ignore the
simple existence of the netiquette).

--
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Mark Wielaard Mark Wielaard
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by Dennis E. Hamilton
Hi,

On Sun, October 2, 2011 20:29, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> > How about you just read the goddamn RFC's for email protocol and stop
> > whining about it?
> Which RFC's are you talking about?  Numbers please.

Please don't top-post (fixed it for you in this message).

I assume the reference is to basic netiquette, which is RFC 1885.
But for this list, please refer to (which is also in the mailinglist
footer): http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette

Thanks,

Mark


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Dennis E. Hamilton Dennis E. Hamilton
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

Mark, I think my question was concrete and very clear:
"> > How about you just read the goddamn RFC's for email protocol and stop
"> > whining about it?
"> Which RFC's are you talking about?  Numbers please.

I don't see how RFC 1885 can be meant.  It says nothing about in-line,
bottom, or top.

Well, it says a little about how to do top-posting properly, depending
on how you read this part:

    - If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you
      summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just
      enough text of the original to give a context.  This will make
      sure readers understand when they start to read your response.
      Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
      postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
      response to a message before seeing the original.  Giving context
      helps everyone.  But do not include the entire original!

I need to do that better.

NetNews (NNTP) is not being used here at [tdf-discuss], and there are
other things that are so 1995 in RFC 1885 (which is also not an IETF
Standard, for those who like to use the "standard" word).  But that is
the extent of what it says about organizing replies to lists and news
groups. (I am more concerned about [libreoffice-users] hostility, though.)

There are other things, such as

    - Limit line length to fewer than 65 characters and end a line
      with a carriage return.

which made a lot of sense if you were using an ASCII terminal or a TTY
printer.  If someone tells me it is critical to using a brailler or
text-to-speech today, I will pay a lot more attention.


 - Dennis E. Hamilton
   tools for document interoperability,  <http://nfoWorks.org/>
   [hidden email]  gsm: +1-206-779-9430  @orcmid


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Wielaard [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 11:59
To: [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

Hi,

On Sun, October 2, 2011 20:29, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> > How about you just read the goddamn RFC's for email protocol and stop
> > whining about it?
> Which RFC's are you talking about?  Numbers please.

Please don't top-post (fixed it for you in this message).

I assume the reference is to basic netiquette, which is RFC 1885.
But for this list, please refer to (which is also in the mailinglist
footer): http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette

Thanks,

Mark


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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: Top Posting...

In reply to this post by Dennis E. Hamilton
On 10/02/2011 08:38 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

>   1. I would have preferred that the last paragraph under "Top-Posting vs. Bottom-posting" followed the "Avoid Advocacy" guidance better.  On the whole, I find the page admirable, civil, and useful.

You are right. I have amended the paragraph, and I have also changed the
Avoid Advocay section to improve the clarity.

>   2. I have an offer.  What formatting by senders will most powerfully serve those on [libreoffice-accessibility]? What do those with access limitations confirm to be the best that works for all of them?  Whatever *that* is, I will do everything in my power to honor.

I am not an expert about accessibility, but I recall that this is one of
the cases where top posting is the best choice. I suggest to have a
double check, though, as I am not competent in this domain.

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Andrew Pitonyak Andrew Pitonyak
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by NoOp

Oh my, not this again... I should write a plug-in that detects bottom /
top posting and then either:

Filters the type you do not like, or, moves all top / bottom postings to
the bottom / top.

If there is sufficient time to argue this, can someone perhaps stop by
and help me flatten some boards (for drawer faces, they are long over
due), fix a leaky sink, make contributions to the documentation, and
help me finish a nice bottle of a yummy beverage.

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NoOp NoOp
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Re: Top Posting...

In reply to this post by italovignoli
On 10/02/2011 09:07 AM, Italo Vignoli wrote:
>>> On 30 September 2011 02:46, NoOp<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>>>> I must say that I *am* surprised that LO haven't the technical/political
>>>> ability/tenacity to properly post information regarding this issue in
>>>> the same manner as the links provided (OOo, Mozilla, Ubuntu, et al).
>
> I have published a comprehensive Mailing List Netiquette, which should
> satisfy your needs.

Thanks!

>
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>
> Of course, a mailing list netiquette is just a reference document, and
> we cannot kill people who ignore it (the majority of users ignore the
> simple existence of the netiquette).
>

Fully agree. And the intent of my OP was never to turn away posters that
top post "Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO
lists." but instead to have a page that users can be 'politely' pointed
to and 'asked' to abide by list standards.

With regard to concerns about top/interspersed/bottom posting on the
accessibility list; I think that the question should be asked there. If
that list prefers top-posting for accessibility reasons then that point
can be added into the http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette.
  Ironically in the past I've purposely top-posted when addressing a
poster that I knew was blind & the poster informed me that it was easier
for him to have the posts interspersed with proper trimming. Other
accessibility lists seem to go either way, so I do not know the correct
answer regarding this issue. Again, perhaps the best would be to ask on
the LO accessibility list and then adopt whichever preference is shown
there.

Thanks again & I *very* much appreciate your time & effort in doing this.


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Mark Wielaard Mark Wielaard
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by Dennis E. Hamilton
Dear Dennis,

On Sun, October 2, 2011 22:00, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> Mark, I think my question was concrete and very clear:
> "> > How about you just read the goddamn RFC's for email protocol and stop
> "> > whining about it?
> "> Which RFC's are you talking about?  Numbers please.
>
> I don't see how RFC 1885 can be meant.

RFC 1885 is one of the inspirations for the document foundation
netiquette page: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette

"These guidelines have been inspired by Mozilla Posting Guidelines,
with important additions from
http://linux.sgms-centre.com/misc/netiquette.php and
http://www.woodgate.org/FAQs/netiquette.html.

Original Netiquette guidelines: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855.
Netiquette on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netiquette.
Other useful information about the Netiquette:
http://www.livinginternet.com/i/ia_nq.htm."

They are just guidelines, but ones which are generally considered good
practice on mailing lists. Please read them and try to follow them as
much as possible to keep discussions as pleasant and productive.

With respect to your question on top-vs-bottom-posting, the netiquette
gives a guideline, it is best to just follow that and use some tools
that facilitate the bottom-post/interspersed-style. And please refer to
the section on "Let Sleeping Dogs Lie". We all have out pet-peeves that
we would like to discuss and rehash indefinitely. Please resist the urge.

Thanks,

Mark


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Tanstaafl Tanstaafl
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Re: Top Posting...

In reply to this post by Dennis E. Hamilton
On 2011-10-02 2:38 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 10/2/11 at 09:07, Italo Vignoli wrote:
>> I have published a comprehensive Mailing List Netiquette, which should
>> satisfy your needs.
>>
>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>>
>> Of course, a mailing list netiquette is just a reference document, and
>> we cannot kill people who ignore it (the majority of users ignore the
>> simple existence of the netiquette).

 > Thank you for the Mailing List Netiquette page.

And yet you continue to top-post, totally ignoring the recommendations...

PLONK

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Dennis E. Hamilton Dennis E. Hamilton
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Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

In reply to this post by Mark Wielaard
Excuse me.  I didn't start this thread.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Wielaard [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 01:03
To: [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

Dear Dennis,

On Sun, October 2, 2011 22:00, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> Mark, I think my question was concrete and very clear:
> "> > How about you just read the goddamn RFC's for email protocol and stop
> "> > whining about it?
> "> Which RFC's are you talking about?  Numbers please.
>
> I don't see how RFC 1885 can be meant.

RFC 1885 is one of the inspirations for the document foundation
netiquette page: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette

"These guidelines have been inspired by Mozilla Posting Guidelines,
with important additions from
http://linux.sgms-centre.com/misc/netiquette.php and
http://www.woodgate.org/FAQs/netiquette.html.

Original Netiquette guidelines: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855.
Netiquette on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netiquette.
Other useful information about the Netiquette:
http://www.livinginternet.com/i/ia_nq.htm."

They are just guidelines, but ones which are generally considered good
practice on mailing lists. Please read them and try to follow them as
much as possible to keep discussions as pleasant and productive.

With respect to your question on top-vs-bottom-posting, the netiquette
gives a guideline, it is best to just follow that and use some tools
that facilitate the bottom-post/interspersed-style. And please refer to
the section on "Let Sleeping Dogs Lie". We all have out pet-peeves that
we would like to discuss and rehash indefinitely. Please resist the urge.

Thanks,

Mark


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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Top Posting...

In reply to this post by italovignoli
Italo Vignoli wrote (02-10-11 22:20)
> On 10/02/2011 08:38 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

>> 2. I have an offer. What formatting by senders will most powerfully
>> serve those on [libreoffice-accessibility]? What do those with access
>> limitations confirm to be the best that works for all of them?
>> Whatever *that* is, I will do everything in my power to honor.
>
> I am not an expert about accessibility, but I recall that this is one of
> the cases where top posting is the best choice. I suggest to have a
> double check, though, as I am not competent in this domain.

I just checked with Peter op 't Hof, Dutch accessibility expert.
He says there is no accessibility problem with mail handling. Most
important is that it's ascii.
(I did not ask if the people that rely on special handling for
accessibility, have to do some extra tolling or settings. But I imagine
the people are informed well enough themselves.)

So accessibility can't be considered as a reason for different mail
handling.

HTH

--
  - Cor
  - http://nl.libreoffice.org


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Dennis E. Hamilton Dennis E. Hamilton
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Re: Top Posting...

Concerning any accessibility issues around e-mail conversations,
Cor reports that an accessibility expert says the main requirement
is that the text be in ASCII.

Cor, does that mean Unicode (i.e., UTF-8) is undesirable?  Or was
the response not that technical?

 - Dennis E. Hamilton
   tools for document interoperability,  <http://nfoWorks.org/>
   [hidden email]  gsm: +1-206-779-9430  @orcmid


-----Original Message-----
From: Cor Nouws [mailto:[hidden email]]
<http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/msg07718.html>
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 13:15
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting...

[ ... ]

I just checked with Peter op 't Hof, Dutch accessibility expert.
He says there is no accessibility problem with mail handling. Most
important is that it's ascii.
(I did not ask if the people that rely on special handling for
accessibility, have to do some extra tolling or settings. But I imagine
the people are informed well enough themselves.)

So accessibility can't be considered as a reason for different mail
handling.
[ ... ]


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