Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

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Bjoern Michaelsen-3 Bjoern Michaelsen-3
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Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

Hello Design Team,

as you might be aware, the user experience of our extension and template
website causes users a lot of concern[1]. This is despite volunteer efforts
trying to move this forward, but stalling due to limited resources, which led
to TDF even attempting to get commercial support for Plone[2] to augment the
the limited volunteer ressources available. The latter did not help to
meaningfully improve the situation either.

So as all current efforts there are stalled, I looked around for alternative
solutions to our usecase -- which is hosting auxiliary content for LibreOffice
consumers. We already have a platform that does that, which is ask.libreoffice.org.

ask.libreoffice.org already allows uploading of templates as attachments to
questions, so it can already be used for templates. Doing so (e.g. by posting a
self-answered question) is possible, but not exactly intuitive. However, askbot
also provides:

- various logins including OAuth etc. (which currently is a hassle on Plone)
- distributed moderation and gamification (which currently is a bottleneck on Plone)
- better discoveribility, tagging and social media integration
- markdown, mini-wiki and discussion of content
- multi-language support

That is, the experience for template creators and consumers is already much better
on askbot than it is on the current extension and templates website, which is
stalled and currently has no clear path to even get to a experience comparable
with askbot -- let alone beyond.

As such, I would like to suggest the design team to investigate, if it is feasable:

- to extend askbots existing UI to offer uploading of templates
  (well, technically that is already possible: This is just about making the
  usecase more obvious to users, e.g. with a guided "templates upload wizard")
- to extend askbots configuration to also allow .oxt files as uploads and offer
  the same for extensions
- finally, use e.g. tags to provide a "template" or "extension" view of
  ask.libreoffice.org

Unlike the rather limited successes we had with Plone, TDF sucessfully triggered
improvements of askbot in the past[3], so given some well-scoped choices and
selections made by the design team wrt askbot could help guide the same in the
future.

Best,

Bjoern


[1] Seen e.g. by:
    a/ repeated cries for help on twitter, some examples:
       https://twitter.com/nimbleslides/status/1020899933161848832
       https://twitter.com/FloraCanou/status/1020517686453735424
    b/ currently no presentation templates being offered there, despite this
       being the most common use case:
       https://extensions.libreoffice.org/templates?getCategories=Presentation&getCompatibility=any
       and massive template collections actually being hosted elsewhere e.g.:
       https://github.com/dohliam/libreoffice-impress-templates
[2] see entry for 2016-02-18 on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/BoD_Decisions
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Askbot

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m.a.riosv m.a.riosv
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

Can we really think about using Ask for that?

My impression is that it is not even very well accepted as a forum. Not
an example of success.

For me the current web of extensions looks and works well enough.

And on the other hand we could be more thankful with the volunteer work
of the people in the project, whether we like it or not.

Miguel Ángel.

El 11/10/18 a las 14:58, Bjoern Michaelsen escribió:

> Hello Design Team,
>
> as you might be aware, the user experience of our extension and template
> website causes users a lot of concern[1]. This is despite volunteer efforts
> trying to move this forward, but stalling due to limited resources, which led
> to TDF even attempting to get commercial support for Plone[2] to augment the
> the limited volunteer ressources available. The latter did not help to
> meaningfully improve the situation either.
>
> So as all current efforts there are stalled, I looked around for alternative
> solutions to our usecase -- which is hosting auxiliary content for LibreOffice
> consumers. We already have a platform that does that, which is ask.libreoffice.org.
>
> ask.libreoffice.org already allows uploading of templates as attachments to
> questions, so it can already be used for templates. Doing so (e.g. by posting a
> self-answered question) is possible, but not exactly intuitive. However, askbot
> also provides:
>
> - various logins including OAuth etc. (which currently is a hassle on Plone)
> - distributed moderation and gamification (which currently is a bottleneck on Plone)
> - better discoveribility, tagging and social media integration
> - markdown, mini-wiki and discussion of content
> - multi-language support
>
> That is, the experience for template creators and consumers is already much better
> on askbot than it is on the current extension and templates website, which is
> stalled and currently has no clear path to even get to a experience comparable
> with askbot -- let alone beyond.
>
> As such, I would like to suggest the design team to investigate, if it is feasable:
>
> - to extend askbots existing UI to offer uploading of templates
>    (well, technically that is already possible: This is just about making the
>    usecase more obvious to users, e.g. with a guided "templates upload wizard")
> - to extend askbots configuration to also allow .oxt files as uploads and offer
>    the same for extensions
> - finally, use e.g. tags to provide a "template" or "extension" view of
>    ask.libreoffice.org
>
> Unlike the rather limited successes we had with Plone, TDF sucessfully triggered
> improvements of askbot in the past[3], so given some well-scoped choices and
> selections made by the design team wrt askbot could help guide the same in the
> future.
>
> Best,
>
> Bjoern
>
>
> [1] Seen e.g. by:
>      a/ repeated cries for help on twitter, some examples:
>         https://twitter.com/nimbleslides/status/1020899933161848832
>         https://twitter.com/FloraCanou/status/1020517686453735424
>      b/ currently no presentation templates being offered there, despite this
>         being the most common use case:
>         https://extensions.libreoffice.org/templates?getCategories=Presentation&getCompatibility=any
>         and massive template collections actually being hosted elsewhere e.g.:
>         https://github.com/dohliam/libreoffice-impress-templates
> [2] see entry for 2016-02-18 on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/BoD_Decisions
> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Askbot
>

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Bjoern Michaelsen-3 Bjoern Michaelsen-3
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

Hi Miguel,

(you do not seem to be subscribed to the design@ list, so others will not see
your mail. I will reply anyway, but please consider subscribing to the mailing
list when discussing there.)

On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 10:56:43PM +0200, Miguel Ángel Ríos Vázquez wrote:
> Can we really think about using Ask for that?

yes. The problems are well-known, have repeatedly communicated in the project
since at least 2013. There really isnt any news here. Unfortunately, there has
been little movement, the community around the old extension webpage did not
grow despite efforts to do so and even external commercial support wasnt
unlocking the situation.

OTOH, my mail clearly stated that I would like to invite the design team to
consider thinking outside of the box and ALSO think about ask.libreoffice.org
as a platform. This e.g. doesnt mean that the old Plone site _needs_ to die --
but it should not be the only platform considered to provide the much needed
content hosting.

If this results in three to four people volunteering to push the old page
forward in a coordinated effort, I am a happy bunny. BUT: Given this has been
tried since 2013 at least and given the feedback I heard from even commercial
suppliers about the state of things, I am not too optimistic.
 
> My impression is that it is not even very well accepted as a forum. Not an
> example of success.

Impressions are odd in that. ask.libreoffice.org is certainly the most
successful forum LibreOffice currently hosts.

https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/users/ shows currently 1547 pages of 30 users
each, so >45.000 registered accounts on ask.libreoffice.org. For comparison:
wiki.documentfoundation.org has ~17.000 accounts. I'd assume all other TDF
infra has less accounts.

https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/questions/ has >29.000 _english_ questions
alone. For comparision: wiki.documentfoundation.org has ~22.000 pages in all
languages.

While there is always room for improvement, ask.libreoffice.org is our most
successful platform -- by far.

> And on the other hand we could be more thankful with the volunteer work of
> the people in the project, whether we like it or not.

That is also true for those content creators trying to use the extension
website to publish content. I posted some random tweets that show their
experience. Unfortunately, that feedback isnt too hard to find and has been
around for years. People uploading their first extension or template are
newcomers to the community -- and as active contributors we should make sure
their experience is not too aweful. The tweets -- together with the fact that
so many extensions and templates are hosted elsewhere (e.g. on github) shows
that we are loosing contributors and miss the opportunity to integrate them
with the wider community. We let those future contributors down.


So: tl;dr: I encouraged the design team to look ALSO look at ask.libreoffice.org
for allowing content publication, esp. since we had good past experience with
getting commercial support for it for well-defined feature requests. That
doesnt rule out Plone as a platform should we (finally) find enough volunteers
for it to gain some more inertia. So if you like the old extension site, feel free
to contribute to it (and find some others to do the same).

Best,

Bjoern

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Thorsten Behrens Thorsten Behrens
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

In reply to this post by Bjoern Michaelsen-3
Hi Bjoern, *,

Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:
> This is despite volunteer efforts trying to move this forward, but
> stalling due to limited resources, which led to TDF even attempting
> to get commercial support for Plone[2] to augment the the limited
> volunteer ressources available.
>
Just to spell the above out a bit - despite heroic efforts from Andi,
indeed it appeared the plone site never attracted enough other
contributors.

So tons of kudos go to Andi here; still I agree with Bjoern that it
would be good to also look for alternative solutions now.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten
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drodriguez drodriguez
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

El jue., 11 oct. 2018 a las 20:24, Thorsten Behrens
(<[hidden email]>) escribió:

>
> Hi Bjoern, *,
>
> Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:
> > This is despite volunteer efforts trying to move this forward, but
> > stalling due to limited resources, which led to TDF even attempting
> > to get commercial support for Plone[2] to augment the the limited
> > volunteer ressources available.
> >
> Just to spell the above out a bit - despite heroic efforts from Andi,
> indeed it appeared the plone site never attracted enough other
> contributors.
>
> So tons of kudos go to Andi here; still I agree with Bjoern that it
> would be good to also look for alternative solutions now.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -- Thorsten


So, if the problems are well known and no platform cover all the
project needs, what about a tender to get something from scratch?

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ricsanto ricsanto
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

Hello,

Is there a possibility of an adaptation of the pages and continue using
Plone?

Or the effort does not pay?

Thanks for attention,

Ricardo

Em qui, 11 de out de 2018 21:17, Daniel A. Rodriguez <
[hidden email]> escreveu:

> El jue., 11 oct. 2018 a las 20:24, Thorsten Behrens
> (<[hidden email]>) escribió:
> >
> > Hi Bjoern, *,
> >
> > Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:
> > > This is despite volunteer efforts trying to move this forward, but
> > > stalling due to limited resources, which led to TDF even attempting
> > > to get commercial support for Plone[2] to augment the the limited
> > > volunteer ressources available.
> > >
> > Just to spell the above out a bit - despite heroic efforts from Andi,
> > indeed it appeared the plone site never attracted enough other
> > contributors.
> >
> > So tons of kudos go to Andi here; still I agree with Bjoern that it
> > would be good to also look for alternative solutions now.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > -- Thorsten
>
>
> So, if the problems are well known and no platform cover all the
> project needs, what about a tender to get something from scratch?
>
> --
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kainz.a kainz.a
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

Hi,

first thanks for ask the question about the extension webpage. And thanks
to Andi that he maintain the page since a long time now.

I'm always for concentrate stuff as it's easier to maintain and easier for
people to use.

For me templates and extension didn't have the same "developer" group.
extensions should have ongoing releases so a git orientated workflow is
more usefull. The source of a lot extensions are on githab or gitlab, ...
Templates will be done by office users so an simple upload will be usefull.

From design point of view I would love to have everything together on
libreoffice.org everywhere the same css file and the same layout.

Another big question is about development. Which platform supports a
community orientated development, which mean when there is a group how do
they work together on the webpage / platform. As example Andi do the
extension page maintanance someone would like to play around with different
design layouts, does the platform support cooperative work and an
"playground" for new developments?

Cheers
Andreas Kainz



Am Fr., 12. Okt. 2018 um 02:27 Uhr schrieb Ricardo Dos Santos <
[hidden email]>:

> Hello,
>
> Is there a possibility of an adaptation of the pages and continue using
> Plone?
>
> Or the effort does not pay?
>
> Thanks for attention,
>
> Ricardo
>
> Em qui, 11 de out de 2018 21:17, Daniel A. Rodriguez <
> [hidden email]> escreveu:
>
> > El jue., 11 oct. 2018 a las 20:24, Thorsten Behrens
> > (<[hidden email]>) escribió:
> > >
> > > Hi Bjoern, *,
> > >
> > > Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:
> > > > This is despite volunteer efforts trying to move this forward, but
> > > > stalling due to limited resources, which led to TDF even attempting
> > > > to get commercial support for Plone[2] to augment the the limited
> > > > volunteer ressources available.
> > > >
> > > Just to spell the above out a bit - despite heroic efforts from Andi,
> > > indeed it appeared the plone site never attracted enough other
> > > contributors.
> > >
> > > So tons of kudos go to Andi here; still I agree with Bjoern that it
> > > would be good to also look for alternative solutions now.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > -- Thorsten
> >
> >
> > So, if the problems are well known and no platform cover all the
> > project needs, what about a tender to get something from scratch?
> >
> > --
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> > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
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> >
>
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Bjoern Michaelsen-3 Bjoern Michaelsen-3
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

In reply to this post by ricsanto
Hi,

On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 09:27:09PM -0300, Ricardo Dos Santos wrote:
> Is there a possibility of an adaptation of the pages and continue using
> Plone?
> Or the effort does not pay?

In theory, you can build pretty much anything on any platform or language. In
practice, the available volunteers are limiting what can be done.

Andi is neither stupid nor missing enthusiasm, but he is ALONE and has been for
years. So despite his heroic effort, what can be accomplished for the extension
website is limited compared to what is likely possible with other platforms
(where there might be more features available out-of-the-box and more
volunteers able or willing to contribute).

This is why other platform should be IMHO considered too.

Best,

Bjoern

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Bjoern Michaelsen-3 Bjoern Michaelsen-3
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

In reply to this post by drodriguez
Hi,

On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 09:16:34PM -0300, Daniel A. Rodriguez wrote:
> So, if the problems are well known and no platform cover all the
> project needs, what about a tender to get something from scratch?

That would broaden the scope of this in major way and increase the change of
failure: If only tenders were always "I write down what I want, pay and get
what I imagined.": But they arent and unfortunately for complex topics like
this one, verifying a tender result is almost as much work as the
implementation itself[1].

Also there is a cost in maintanance that we have to pay (or have to ensure
volunteer to be available for) for each and every CMS we host. That cost is
higher the more different CMS we have and the more customized our workflows on
them are.

We currently have:
- Silverstripe for static content
- Wordpress for news
- MediaWiki for project development resources (development on LibreOffice itself)
- Askbot (content on top of LibreOffice)
- Plone

Best,

Bjoern


[1] Also, as migration paths are hard, there is a certain risk this will end as
    https://xkcd.com/927/

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Bjoern Michaelsen-3 Bjoern Michaelsen-3
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

In reply to this post by kainz.a
Hi,

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 08:23:52AM +0200, kainz.a wrote:
> For me templates and extension didn't have the same "developer" group.
> extensions should have ongoing releases so a git orientated workflow is
> more usefull. The source of a lot extensions are on githab or gitlab, ...
> Templates will be done by office users so an simple upload will be usefull.

Yes, source hosting is another issue -- and one were neither Plone nor Askbot
provide an solution yet. If an extension developer publishes on github/gitlab
anyway, I think their main remaining need is discoverability.

We see that on the existing extension webpage, were a lot of content was not
hosted on extensions.libreoffice.org, but just linked to
github/gitlab/whereever. Both Plone and Askbot can provide that, but the Askbot
experience is much simpler because of e.g. OAuth login, distributed moderation,
discussion/mini-wiki being available.

So, I wouldnt want to block on solving the source-hosting problem for now and
leave it for later. Lets solve the basic UX first.

> Another big question is about development. Which platform supports a
> community orientated development, which mean when there is a group how do
> they work together on the webpage / platform. As example Andi do the
> extension page maintanance someone would like to play around with different
> design layouts, does the platform support cooperative work and an
> "playground" for new developments?

I think this is the key here: So far, Andi being a lone warrior here has been
the limiting factor -- not by lack of skill, but by being alone. If there are
multiple people willing to work on this with Plone, that is great. But at this
point, I would not want to turn down a solution based on e.g. Askbot if that
shows more prospect.

Best,

Bjoern

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kainz.a kainz.a
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

HI,

for the basic UX there are still some ideas from the design team
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12dbdmzi3dy5TwNsIao0MXZSnl7X4jMk5zKwy8Azeohg
(sorry that it is on gdocs)

I also want to say if we have an good extension layout for templates
it can be used also for the documentation webpage
cause both show the same content templates show an template to download
and bocumentation show an book, ... whatever to download.

And please keep it simple. Define the different users and what they want.
LibO user: Install the extension and keep it up to date
Template contributor: Share his template, don't care about LibO version
extension contributor: Extend LibO functionality
Maintainer: Easy setup with collaborative workflow

I'm sorry that Andi didn't join the discussion,
cause it should support his work
and hopefully find new contributors.

Cheers
Andreas

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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

kainz.a wrote on 12-10-18 11:28:

> for the basic UX there are still some ideas from the design team
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/12dbdmzi3dy5TwNsIao0MXZSnl7X4jMk5zKwy8Azeohg
> (sorry that it is on gdocs)

It is an interesting mixture of really useful stuff and some overkill -
IMO. Just as the current site.


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Bjoern Michaelsen-3 Bjoern Michaelsen-3
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

In reply to this post by kainz.a
On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 11:28:08AM +0200, kainz.a wrote:
> for the basic UX there are still some ideas from the design team
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/12dbdmzi3dy5TwNsIao0MXZSnl7X4jMk5zKwy8Azeohg
> (sorry that it is on gdocs)

Commented.

> And please keep it simple.

Yes, please. That document is already exploring the rarest cornercases:

- Bookkeeping a bazillion entries of metadata shouldnt be an end to itself:
  The webpage should handle metadata about extensions, if there is a reasonable
  usecase for using it e.g. in a query. However even basic querying -- apart
  from maybe for tags -- is already an advanced feature that 99% of users wont
  use.
- If metadata is extracted for search and querying, it should be parsed from
  the extension itself and not manually entered (or even duplicated: most of
  the stuff is already in the extension itself)

> Define the different users and what they want.

99% of extensions are:
- single revision
- single author
- cross platform

That is the usecase we should optimize for. Adding features for the 1% other
extensions should not be done if it adds complexity for the majority of
uploaders.

So in fact, half of the features in the google doc should be moved aside for
really, really pinning down a simple workflow for those 99% of uploaders that
wrote some single revision StarBasic or Python extension on their own.

Best,

Bjoern

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Bjoern Michaelsen-3 Bjoern Michaelsen-3
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

Hi,

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 12:08:32PM +0200, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:
> So in fact, half of the features in the google doc should be moved aside for
> really, really pinning down a simple workflow for those 99% of uploaders that
> wrote some single revision StarBasic or Python extension on their own.

Or rather:

Split the document up in two sections: First one for:

- single author
- single revision
- cross plattform

uploads (99%), the second for everything else (1%). You can create persona for
these two uploaders too, if it makes you happy.

Best,

Bjoern

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htietze htietze
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

In reply to this post by Cor Nouws

On 10/12/18 11:59 AM, Cor Nouws wrote:
> kainz.a wrote on 12-10-18 11:28:
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/12dbdmzi3dy5TwNsIao0MXZSnl7X4jMk5zKwy8Azeohg
>
> It is an interesting mixture of really useful stuff and some overkill -
> IMO. Just as the current site.

It _was_ a description of the current site with the idea to improve based on requirements discussion. The document is out-dated.


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m.a.mob m.a.mob
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

In reply to this post by kainz.a
https://planet.documentfoundation.org/
October 11/2018
Andreas comment about, nothing else to say.
Miguel Ángel.

El 12/10/18 a las 11:28, kainz.a escribió:

> HI,
>
> for the basic UX there are still some ideas from the design team
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/12dbdmzi3dy5TwNsIao0MXZSnl7X4jMk5zKwy8Azeohg
> (sorry that it is on gdocs)
>
> I also want to say if we have an good extension layout for templates
> it can be used also for the documentation webpage
> cause both show the same content templates show an template to download
> and bocumentation show an book, ... whatever to download.
>
> And please keep it simple. Define the different users and what they want.
> LibO user: Install the extension and keep it up to date
> Template contributor: Share his template, don't care about LibO version
> extension contributor: Extend LibO functionality
> Maintainer: Easy setup with collaborative workflow
>
> I'm sorry that Andi didn't join the discussion,
> cause it should support his work
> and hopefully find new contributors.
>
> Cheers
> Andreas
>

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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

In reply to this post by Bjoern Michaelsen-3
Bjoern Michaelsen wrote on 12-10-18 12:08:

> Yes, please. That document is already exploring the rarest cornercases:
>
> - Bookkeeping a bazillion entries of metadata shouldnt be an end to itself:
>   The webpage should handle metadata about extensions, if there is a reasonable
>   usecase for using it e.g. in a query. However even basic querying -- apart
>   from maybe for tags -- is already an advanced feature that 99% of users wont
>   use.
> - If metadata is extracted for search and querying, it should be parsed from

So the idea is that Ask. will do that?

>   the extension itself and not manually entered (or even duplicated: most of
>   the stuff is already in the extension itself)
>
>> Define the different users and what they want.
>
> 99% of extensions are:

well, maybe 95+%.

> - single revision
> - single author
> - cross platform
>
> That is the usecase we should optimize for. Adding features for the 1% other
> extensions should not be done if it adds complexity for the majority of
> uploaders.

If adding limited number of extra features is simple, and doesn't put a
burden on all users, that would be fine.

> So in fact, half of the features in the google doc should be moved aside for
> really, really pinning down a simple workflow for those 99% of uploaders that
> wrote some single revision StarBasic or Python extension on their own.

So practical: the design, and thus the UI burden, can be reduced by
skipping the project-idea. A project is useful for an extension that has
more revisions, maybe for various versions of LibreOffice. But in those
cases, the maker of the extension can just upload another one, and add a
note to the previous version about the new one.
Things like that.

Cheers,
Cor

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Bjoern Michaelsen-3 Bjoern Michaelsen-3
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 01:06:41PM +0200, Cor Nouws wrote:

> Bjoern Michaelsen wrote on 12-10-18 12:08:
>
> > Yes, please. That document is already exploring the rarest cornercases:
> >
> > - Bookkeeping a bazillion entries of metadata shouldnt be an end to itself:
> >   The webpage should handle metadata about extensions, if there is a reasonable
> >   usecase for using it e.g. in a query. However even basic querying -- apart
> >   from maybe for tags -- is already an advanced feature that 99% of users wont
> >   use.
> > - If metadata is extracted for search and querying, it should be parsed from
>
> So the idea is that Ask. will do that?

Well, the first question is: do we need all that metadata at all? It would only
be useful if its of help in meaningful queries by users. Once we found that
there is a useful query which requires the website to be aware of metadata
about an extension and have a realistic meaningful usecase for that -- and only
then -- we should decide on implementing that[1].

The second question then is how to get that metadata. E.g. the license has to
be in the extension itself. So why bothering to ask the uploader about it,
possibly causing even mismatched metadata, because the manual entry had a
different value than what is in the metadata of the extension itself.


But more broadly my point is: We should start with a MVP[2] and then extend
upon that as we find meaningful user stories (features) to add. That also means
we should ONLY add metadata when we need it and also have a fetaure that makes
having that metadata useful.

Having a metric ton of metadata "just in case" we _might_ _possibly_ use it one
day is BAD. Asking uploaders for huge amount of metadata in errorprone manual
entry is WORSE, esp. if that metadata is not useful for meaningful queries.

So this is more about how to do iterative development: Start with a minimal
core feature set and make that right, and then incrementally add features one
by one. Do NOT start to collect metadata for the next feature "just in case", if
you havent completed putting the metadata from the current feature to best use
in queries etc.

Essentially, we never want to burden users with having to provide metadata, if
that metadata is not needed for a relevant and useful query to find extensions.

FWIW, this is mostly irrelevant for a decision between Askbot or Plone. For
that the relevant question is: For which do we find more contributors and
moderators and as means of last resort: commercial external support.

Best,

Bjoern

[1] E.g. Sure: we can query extension for the license they are published under
    and only list those that have one specific license. But is there a
    realisitic use case for that? How many people will do that really?
[2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_Viable_Product

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Maarten Brouwers (murb) Maarten Brouwers (murb)
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

In reply to this post by m.a.riosv
What about adapting Mozilla’s extension-site? From an and-user’s perspective I think they’ve well figured out how such site should work, at least from a consumer’s perspective. Adopting a Q/A site for something that allows for a structured presentation of an extension looks like turning a bus into a car. Sure it will function, but I wouldn’t expect the UX to gain anything from it.

Live site: https://addons.mozilla.org <https://addons.mozilla.org/>

Source:
https://github.com/mozilla/addons-server <https://github.com/mozilla/addons-server> (Python / Django based)
https://github.com/mozilla/addons-frontend <https://github.com/mozilla/addons-frontend> (JavaScript / React based)


g.,


Maarten Brouwers

> Op 11 okt. 2018, om 22:56 heeft Miguel Ángel Ríos Vázquez <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:
>
> Can we really think about using Ask for that?
>
> My impression is that it is not even very well accepted as a forum. Not an example of success.
>
> For me the current web of extensions looks and works well enough.
>
> And on the other hand we could be more thankful with the volunteer work of the people in the project, whether we like it or not.
>
> Miguel Ángel.
>
> El 11/10/18 a las 14:58, Bjoern Michaelsen escribió:
>> Hello Design Team,
>> as you might be aware, the user experience of our extension and template
>> website causes users a lot of concern[1]. This is despite volunteer efforts
>> trying to move this forward, but stalling due to limited resources, which led
>> to TDF even attempting to get commercial support for Plone[2] to augment the
>> the limited volunteer ressources available. The latter did not help to
>> meaningfully improve the situation either.
>> So as all current efforts there are stalled, I looked around for alternative
>> solutions to our usecase -- which is hosting auxiliary content for LibreOffice
>> consumers. We already have a platform that does that, which is ask.libreoffice.org.
>> ask.libreoffice.org already allows uploading of templates as attachments to
>> questions, so it can already be used for templates. Doing so (e.g. by posting a
>> self-answered question) is possible, but not exactly intuitive. However, askbot
>> also provides:
>> - various logins including OAuth etc. (which currently is a hassle on Plone)
>> - distributed moderation and gamification (which currently is a bottleneck on Plone)
>> - better discoveribility, tagging and social media integration
>> - markdown, mini-wiki and discussion of content
>> - multi-language support
>> That is, the experience for template creators and consumers is already much better
>> on askbot than it is on the current extension and templates website, which is
>> stalled and currently has no clear path to even get to a experience comparable
>> with askbot -- let alone beyond.
>> As such, I would like to suggest the design team to investigate, if it is feasable:
>> - to extend askbots existing UI to offer uploading of templates
>>   (well, technically that is already possible: This is just about making the
>>   usecase more obvious to users, e.g. with a guided "templates upload wizard")
>> - to extend askbots configuration to also allow .oxt files as uploads and offer
>>   the same for extensions
>> - finally, use e.g. tags to provide a "template" or "extension" view of
>>   ask.libreoffice.org
>> Unlike the rather limited successes we had with Plone, TDF sucessfully triggered
>> improvements of askbot in the past[3], so given some well-scoped choices and
>> selections made by the design team wrt askbot could help guide the same in the
>> future.
>> Best,
>> Bjoern
>> [1] Seen e.g. by:
>>     a/ repeated cries for help on twitter, some examples:
>>        https://twitter.com/nimbleslides/status/1020899933161848832
>>        https://twitter.com/FloraCanou/status/1020517686453735424
>>     b/ currently no presentation templates being offered there, despite this
>>        being the most common use case:
>>        https://extensions.libreoffice.org/templates?getCategories=Presentation&getCompatibility=any
>>        and massive template collections actually being hosted elsewhere e.g.:
>>        https://github.com/dohliam/libreoffice-impress-templates
>> [2] see entry for 2016-02-18 on https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/BoD_Decisions
>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Askbot
>
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Bjoern Michaelsen-3 Bjoern Michaelsen-3
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Re: Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

Hi Maarten,

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 02:06:54PM +0200, Maarten Brouwers (murb) wrote:
> What about adapting Mozilla’s extension-site?

So lets phrase the problem differently: We are not lacking tools or platforms.
We are lacking volunteers to maintain, develop and moderate on platforms. So if
you find a team of 2 to 3 enthusiastic volunteers that are willing to push a
platform forward that is great. That platform can be Mozilla Addons, Askbot,
Plone or something else.

OTOH that is for later: This is the design list and the focus should be on
identifying the vital core features needed on a solution. I opened the
discussion with Askbot as it provides this:
- We currently have a well-maintained instance.
- We currently have active moderators on that site.
- We were able to purchase development on AskBot.

So the workflow has to be:

1/ Identify core needs and usecases
2/ Find volunteers, enthusiasts and maintainers, who can provide these core
   usecases with ~whatever tool they want.
3/ Implement MVP on a platform and extend usecases as volunteer resources allow
   (maybe topped up with some payed development, if that is worth it)

The tools are NOT the important part of this. People are. Considering AskBot,
which has 100 to 1000 moderators:

https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/badges/14/supporter/
https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/badges/9/critic/

instead of _only_ considering Plone, because "we always used it" is putting
people first.

So tl;dr: This is the design list, we do 1/ "Identify core needs and usecases"
here. No tools/platform discussion[1]. Next up would be finding enthusiastic
people willing to work on this. For the most part, they can use whatever tool
they want, if they get stuff done. Even if I think their tool is horrible or
"a bus turned into a car", I am happy, if the users of the site are happy and
there is an active set of volunteers[2] maintaining it.

Best,

Bjoern


[1] And again: Saying "Do not limit yourself to Plone" is exactly that: It
    keeps the tools out of a discussion that should identify core usecases.
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor

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