UOF v2.0, the PRC national XML standard for Chinese Office documents--what to do with it in LibreOffice?

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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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UOF v2.0, the PRC national XML standard for Chinese Office documents--what to do with it in LibreOffice?

ESC, TDF Board, *,

LibreOffice's support for the Chinese national standard for XML documents was added to the OOo CWS mid-2006 and seems to comply with just a portion of the UOF V1.0 standard--it is a flat XML implementation.

Technical comparison between UOF v1.0 and ODF packaged XML is in a note for a contemporary Java AWT based GUI ODF-UOF Converter project on Source forge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/odf-to-uof/files/ODF-UOF%20v1.0/ODF-UOF-comparison/ODF-UOF-comparison-doc.zip/download 

Since then, the Chinese Office suite development by the likes of  RedFlag 2000 (defunct), KingSoft, YozoSoft and CS2C with state sponsorship  and academic research have refined the UOF national "standard" into a version 2.0

Our UOF 1.0 Import/Export filters seem to have never been completed, and no longer seem to be doing the job of handling interoperability with current documents (see fdo#50430, fdo#73292), but finding technical details of the emerging standard has been beyond me.

So, anyone on the ESC or the TDF board have an opinion of what to do in LibreOffice regards UOF?  Abandon it and concede to provide no interoperability support for Chinese users?  Should filters be removed from core and repackaged as an extension to externally provide document conversion?

Stuart

=-=-=

As an aside, to keep OOXML relevant, Microsoft has partnered with Beihang University and Beijing Information Science & Technology University with PRC state sponsorship to develop efficient, .NET or Web, based external conversion of UOF and OOXML--the Sourcforge hosted project is nominally OpenSource (BSD like license).  The project site is here: http://uof-translator.sourceforge.net/ and source is available for review.
Tor Lillqvist-2 Tor Lillqvist-2
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Re: UOF v2.0, the PRC national XML standard for Chinese Office documents--what to do with it in LibreOffice?


So, anyone on the ESC or the TDF board have an opinion of what to do in
LibreOffice regards UOF? 

Please note that I am replying nominally in the first rôle, but mostly as a random person whose opinion has no impact on anything.
 
Abandon it

+1
 
and concede to provide no
interoperability support for Chinese users? 

Broken support is worse than no support.
 
Should filters be removed from
core and repackaged as an extension to externally provide document
conversion?

If they are broken anyway, what would be the point with that?

conversion of UOF and OOXML--the Sourcforge hosted project is nominally
OpenSource (BSD like license).  The project site is here:
http://uof-translator.sourceforge.net/ and source is available for review.

Do I see a mention of XSLT there? I wouldn't want to touch that with a three-metre pole wearing double rubber gloves. Reminds me of a certain other MS-funded XSLT-based "converter" project. And their BSD license blurb even has the same silly misuse of the term "the regents" (a clueless leftover from "The Regents of the University of California").

--tml
 

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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: UOF v2.0, the PRC national XML standard for Chinese Office documents--what to do with it in LibreOffice?

Tor Lillqvist-2 wrote
> Should filters be removed from
> core and repackaged as an extension to externally provide document
> conversion?
>
If they are broken anyway, what would be the point with that?
Well, I would expect that if someone were to take the time to implement as an appropriately licensed extension--they'd go ahead and get it up to par in handling the current Chinese XML standard.  And of course it means XSLT work.

Stuart
Robinson Tryon Robinson Tryon
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Re: UOF v2.0, the PRC national XML standard for Chinese Office documents--what to do with it in LibreOffice?

In reply to this post by V Stuart Foote
On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 12:37 PM, V Stuart Foote <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Since then, the Chinese Office suite development by the likes of  RedFlag
> 2000 (defunct), KingSoft, YozoSoft and CS2C with state sponsorship  and
> academic research have refined the UOF national "standard" into a version
> 2.0
>
> So, anyone on the ESC or the TDF board have an opinion of what to do in
> LibreOffice regards UOF?

What are the major barriers preventing greater adoption of ODF in
China? Sure, high-fidelity UOF <-> ODF conversion software could be
helpful for interoperability purposes, but I think our overarching
goal here should be to get more groups using ODF (natively,
preferably) unless there's a good reason for them to go with some
other standard.

IIRC, there are a couple of people employed by Chinese tech companies
who sit on the OASIS ODF TC. I've no idea if they could be helpful
here :-)

> Abandon it and concede to provide no
> interoperability support for Chinese users?  Should filters be removed from
> core and repackaged as an extension to externally provide document
> conversion?

Perhaps there are companies/groups in China that would be interested
in improving the UOF support in LibreOffice. Having a suitably-sized
set of test documents is probably the best first step towards
improving the format support. A quick search on Bugzilla only turns up
3 bugs that reference "UOF", and 6 that reference "UOT":
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/buglist.cgi?list_id=492261&longdesc=UOF&longdesc_type=allwordssubstr&product=LibreOffice&query_format=advanced
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/buglist.cgi?list_id=492266&longdesc=UOT&longdesc_type=allwords&product=LibreOffice&query_format=advanced

Cheers,
--R

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Robinson Tryon
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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: UOF v2.0, the PRC national XML standard for Chinese Office documents--what to do with it in LibreOffice?

Robinson Tryon wrote
On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 12:37 PM, V Stuart Foote <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Since then, the Chinese Office suite development by the likes of  RedFlag
> 2000 (defunct), KingSoft, YozoSoft and CS2C with state sponsorship  and
> academic research have refined the UOF national "standard" into a version
> 2.0
>
> So, anyone on the ESC or the TDF board have an opinion of what to do in
> LibreOffice regards UOF?

What are the major barriers preventing greater adoption of ODF in
China? Sure, high-fidelity UOF <-> ODF conversion software could be
helpful for interoperability purposes, but I think our overarching
goal here should be to get more groups using ODF (natively,
preferably) unless there's a good reason for them to go with some
other standard.
You mean like having XML natively encoded and structured in readable 2-byte Chinese characters ;-)
Also, have seen one of the stated goals of UOF to be fostering a Chinese software development ethos "respectful of cultural and language" interests and breaking from western software dominance--like ODF.

IIRC, there are a couple of people employed by Chinese tech companies
who sit on the OASIS ODF TC. I've no idea if they could be helpful
here :-)
I hope so, I have hunted for something resembling a published standard for UOF v2.0, without success. If we have any hope of moving this forward--either as an import/export filter, or done with external conversion, we'll need to find an authoritative source  and guidance of what describe structure of the UOF standard. Someone sitting the OASIS ODF TC would be aware of UOF developments.

> Abandon it and concede to provide no
> interoperability support for Chinese users?  Should filters be removed from
> core and repackaged as an extension to externally provide document
> conversion?

Perhaps there are companies/groups in China that would be interested
in improving the UOF support in LibreOffice. Having a suitably-sized
set of test documents is probably the best first step towards
improving the format support.
I don't know, I've installed WPS and generated some test files--the native .WPS  generated doesn't even seem to be UOF.   I am not am not sure, but I think all the suites have proprietary native formats--and optionally produce UOF formats to satisfy PRC XML standard.  If true, further complicating the challenge.

Not too surprising,  suspect that most users of a Chinese language office suite--WPS, Yozo, NeoShine or even the old RedFlag suite--looking for interoperability would try OOo, LibreOffice or AOO and give up when their document didn't open.
Kohei Yoshida-7 Kohei Yoshida-7
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Re: UOF v2.0, the PRC national XML standard for Chinese Office documents--what to do with it in LibreOffice?

In reply to this post by V Stuart Foote
On Tue, 2014-11-11 at 10:37 -0700, V Stuart Foote wrote:

> So, anyone on the ESC or the TDF board have an opinion of what to do in
> LibreOffice regards UOF?  Abandon it and concede to provide no
> interoperability support for Chinese users?  Should filters be removed from
> core and repackaged as an extension to externally provide document
> conversion?

It seems to me that you probably know more about UOF than the rest of
us.  I'd like to hear your opinion of what should be done.  And if your
answer is "we should take this further to support Chinese users", then
who do you think should provide the development resources, given TDF
itself has no development resources?

I have my own biased (and uninformed) opinion on this topic, but that's
probably not relevant here.

Kohei

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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: UOF v2.0, the PRC national XML standard for Chinese Office documents--what to do with it in LibreOffice?

@Kohei,

Kohei Yoshida-7 wrote
It seems to me that you probably know more about UOF than the rest of
us.  I'd like to hear your opinion of what should be done.  And if your
answer is "we should take this further to support Chinese users", then
who do you think should provide the development resources, given TDF
itself has no development resources?

I have my own biased (and uninformed) opinion on this topic, but that's
probably not relevant here.
No, completely new to me since I began poking at fdo#50430.  And I guess that is part of the issue, I've had to dig pretty deep to find out where we went of track.

There was some preliminary work done back in the OOo heyday when UOF was just being finalized--but then nada.  The OOo team missed an opportunity in 2010 to bring things with UOF  more current--and balked as it was too close to a release cycle.  Then nothing-- and while developers in China and state sponsors have continued their  efforts on UOF--support for the XML format  in OOo and now LibreOffice and Apache OpenOffice has been passed over.

Not sure if the repo network tracks it, but might be interesting to identify just how many seats of LibreOffice have been downloaded to Chinese configured web browsers.   Can we somehow determine how relative LibreOffice and ODF  is to Chinese language users, or to office users in the PRC?

That metric might dictate what path to take in support of  UOF interoperability in LibreOffice, is it functionality that our Chinese reading users would make use of?

Stuart
jonathon-6 jonathon-6
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Re: UOF v2.0, the PRC national XML standard for Chinese Office documents--what to do with it in LibreOffice?

In reply to this post by V Stuart Foote
On 11/11/14 17:37, V Stuart Foote wrote:

> Abandon it and concede to provide no interoperability support for Chinese users?  

As things currently stand, I think it is safe to say, that were it not
for the Japanese contingent, CKJV support would be completely
unacceptable for everybody.

As it is, support for the Chinese writing system, and its users is fair
to middlin.

I don't like the idea of abandoning UOF, especially because Chinese is
the native writing system for fifth of the world's population.
OTOH, LibreOffice does not appear to have a Chinese language support
group that is able to contribute either code, or provide translations
for people who can code, to use.

###

I'm acutely aware of the issues involved in translating anything from
Chinese into, or from another language. This is one of the few languages
where people with people whose first language is Chinese, and have a PhD
in Chinese Language Study, routinely have half a dozen dictionaries on
hand, simply to know either how to write a familiar word, or obtain the
meaning of an unfamiliar glyph, or to figure out what a string of glyphs
_probably_ means. (I know several professors of Chinese in the United
States, that hire people to read Chinese language websites to them,
because that is faster, easier, and cheaper, than for them to spend the
time deciphering those websites. These professors have published
critical editions of Chinese texts in both English, and Chinese.)

###
Would it be possible for the Japanese group to provide translations of
those documents. (I am assuming that Sino-Japanese relations aren't
stuck in year 14 of the Hakuchi era.)

>Should filters be removed from core and repackaged as an extension to
externally provide document conversion?

An import only extension is probably the simplest/easiest short term
solution. (IIRC, import loses markup, but not content with export losing
both markup and content.)

For the medium term, write, as a user-installed extension:
* Import/Export UOF 1.0 filters;
* Export UOF 2.0 filters;

For the long term, write, as a user-installed extension:
* Import/Export 2.0 filters;

###

What happened to the Chinese language team?
zh.libreoffice.org is in English, even though that is not on the
"acceptable language list" of my browser.
nl.libreoffice.org is in Dutch, which is one of the languages on the
"acceptable language list".
ja.libreoffice.org is in Japanese, other than the English text that is
found on the bottom of the page.
(I just noticed that even on de.libreoffice.org, that text is in English!)

I know that due to RedOffice going out of business, their code
submissions could not be made. I was under the impression that OOo was
also working with other organizations for Chinese language support?

jonathon
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Simos Xenitellis Simos Xenitellis
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Re: UOF v2.0, the PRC national XML standard for Chinese Office documents--what to do with it in LibreOffice?

In reply to this post by V Stuart Foote

On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 7:37 PM, V Stuart Foote <[hidden email]> wrote:

Since then, the Chinese Office suite development by the likes of  RedFlag
2000 (defunct), KingSoft, YozoSoft and CS2C with state sponsorship  and
academic research have refined the UOF national "standard" into a version
2.0

There is also Ubuntu Kylin, which does come with LibreOffice. However, 
users can install a version of WPS Office specially for Ubuntu Kylin,
The files are available outside the Software Centre, at http://www.ubuntukylin.com/applications/showimg.php?lang=cn&id=19

What I would recommend is to ask Dr. Jonas Zhang who works on Ubuntu Kylin. According to
"[Dr. Jonas Zhang] has been engaged in operating system research and engineering in China for many years. 
With the helping of his colleagues, Jonas has done a lot of work to construct the community of Ubuntu Kylin since 2013. 
Now Ubuntu Kylin has been one of the most active and the largest OS communities in China."

If you cannot find a contact address for Joan Zhang, you can ask Daniel Holbach who took the above interview.

Simos

p.s.

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Christian Lohmaier-3 Christian Lohmaier-3
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Re: UOF v2.0, the PRC national XML standard for Chinese Office documents--what to do with it in LibreOffice?

In reply to this post by jonathon-6
Hi Jonathon,

On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 5:31 AM, jonathon <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 11/11/14 17:37, V Stuart Foote wrote:
>
> ###
>
> What happened to the Chinese language team?
> zh.libreoffice.org is in English, even though that is not on the
> "acceptable language list" of my browser.

That never existed.. it is
http://zh-tw.libreoffice.org/ and
http://zh-cn.libreoffice.org/

> nl.libreoffice.org is in Dutch, which is one of the languages on the
> "acceptable language list".

nl.libreoffice.org is in Dutch, just because it is created in dutch -
there is no redirection done based on browser language on the site.

ciao
Christian
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Re: UOF v2.0, the PRC national XML standard for Chinese Office documents--what to do with it in LibreOffice?

In reply to this post by jonathon-6
jonathon-4 wrote
What happened to the Chinese language team?
zh.libreoffice.org is in English, even though that is not on the
There is a pretty vibrant Chinese user community here:
http://www.libreofficechina.org/forum.php

And the truth is, it is not that difficult to gist most document and posting content using Google Translate MT services as coming from ZhongZi to English is usually very high quality--exactly what is needed to identify the mixed code (UTF-8, or GB  encoding) that UOF seems to use.  

PinYin to English presents challenges, and like most westerners I am illiterate with ZhongZi in that my Chinese skills are limited to PinYin.    But as I'd mentioned, I've not been able to locate a specification for the UOF v2.0 "standard" to start to  review.

Stuart
Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: UOF v2.0, the PRC national XML standard for Chinese Office documents--what to do with it in LibreOffice?

Stuart, all,

Le 12.11.2014 15:25, V Stuart Foote a écrit :

> jonathon-4 wrote
>> What happened to the Chinese language team?
>> zh.libreoffice.org is in English, even though that is not on the
>
> There is a pretty vibrant Chinese user community here:
> http://www.libreofficechina.org/forum.php
>
> And the truth is, it is not that difficult to gist most document and
> posting
> content using Google Translate MT services as coming from ZhongZi to
> English
> is usually very high quality--exactly what is needed to identify the
> mixed
> code (UTF-8, or GB  encoding) that UOF seems to use.
>
> PinYin to English presents challenges, and like most westerners I am
> illiterate with ZhongZi in that my Chinese skills are limited to
> PinYin.
> But as I'd mentioned, I've not been able to locate a specification for
> the
> UOF v2.0 "standard" to start to  review.
>

UOF has always looked like an oddball to me. A good idea, but an
oddball. You will not find UOF specs as such anywhere. But you will find
the "mark-up language" spec leading to the format specification at the
OASIS, provided there is no other repository that is more active than
this one in China:
https://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=uoml-x
It is called UOML-X.

As you can see, this is the continuation of an older TC called "UOML
TC", that was not very active either. The whole point of UOML (and UOF)
is to "wrap" entire document files (OOXML, ODF, PDF...) into a new
format with a mark-up language describing the various possible
operations on these documents. My point however, is not to criticize the
quality of the standard itself - I just think it either fully works as
it claims it does or it has completely failed a long time ago.

Now, the UOF standard does exist as such and has enjoyed Chinese's
governmental support. I'm not so sure whether it has any actual traction
inside China and I have never even seen an UOF file, ever. I note it was
started sometime in 2007, and had a few revisions until 2009. After
that, nothing.
The best solution was already suggested earlier: do you think you could
check with Ubuntu Kylin about this? Is UOF popular? Is it even used?

If it is, the next step is to attract chinese contributors, possibly
under the www.documentliberation.org umbrella. But until there is such
an interest, it is unlikely that TDF and the devs here will pay much
attention.

Hope this helps,

Charles.
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Re: UOF v2.0, the PRC national XML standard for Chinese Office documents--what to do with it in LibreOffice?

In reply to this post by Christian Lohmaier-3


On 12/11/14 13:12, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

>> What happened to the Chinese language team?
>> zh.libreoffice.org is in English, even though that is not on the
>> "acceptable language list" of my browser.
>
> That never existed.. it is
> http://zh-tw.libreoffice.org/ and
> http://zh-cn.libreoffice.org/

Redirecting zh.libreoffice.org to either zh-tw.libreoffice.org or
zh-cn.libreoffice.org is a political issue.
Using English on zh.libreoffice.org is a linguistic issue.

I'd propose replacing the current content of zh.libreoffice.org with a
page that says:
«Using Google Translate, and all the errors that makes.»

For Traditional Chinese, go to zh-tw.libreoffice/org
For Simplified Chinese, go to zh-cn.libreoffice.org
For English, go to en.libreoffice.org
For Japanese go to ja.libreoffice.org
For Korean go to ko.libreoffice.org
For Viet go to vi.libreoffice.org

为了简化中国进入zh-cn.libreoffice.org
對於傳統的中國去zh-tw.libreoffice.org
日本語にja.libreoffice.orgに行く
한국어 ko.libreoffice.org로 이동
Đối với Việt đi vi.libreoffice.org

> nl.libreoffice.org is in Dutch, just because it is created in dutch -
> there is no redirection done based on browser language on the site.

I thought I had previously seen browser language redirection on the site.

jonathon



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