Update on Drupal Website Language Management

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Update on Drupal Website Language Management

For those interested, Drupal is a very powerful platform for multi-lingual
sites.
A summary presentation of the aspects of the website that involves
internationalisation can be found here:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibreOffice_Drupal_website_language_management.odp

I would like to invite all people who are involved in Native Language teams
and translation to give feedback on this presentation here or on the wiki:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Drupal/i18n

One thing to take note of not covered in the presentation:
Native Language Teams will have their own discussion area much the same way
the marketing or development team will.

One aspect we need to address is automatic translations and if and when they
will be used on the site. This is discussed somewhat in the presentation.

Thanks to those who initiated this discussion and please let me know if you
have any questions.

Michael Wheatland*
*


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Language Management

Le 2010-11-30 05:46, Michael Wheatland a écrit :

> For those interested, Drupal is a very powerful platform for multi-lingual
> sites.
> A summary presentation of the aspects of the website that involves
> internationalisation can be found here:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibreOffice_Drupal_website_language_management.odp
>
> I would like to invite all people who are involved in Native Language teams
> and translation to give feedback on this presentation here or on the wiki:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Drupal/i18n
>
> One thing to take note of not covered in the presentation:
> Native Language Teams will have their own discussion area much the same way
> the marketing or development team will.
>
> One aspect we need to address is automatic translations and if and when they
> will be used on the site. This is discussed somewhat in the presentation.
>
> Thanks to those who initiated this discussion and please let me know if you
> have any questions.
>
> Michael Wheatland*
> *
>
>

Thanks for doing this Michael.

Cheers

Marc



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Carlos Jenkins Carlos Jenkins
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Language Management

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
Hi Michael,

2010/11/30 Michael Wheatland <[hidden email]>

> I would like to invite all people who are involved in Native Language teams
> and translation to give feedback on this presentation here or on the wiki:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Drupal/i18n


I've removed the "Lang Dropdown" from the list and added the "Lang Select"
module that I've developed to address the concerns on the language selection
widget. I've uploaded the most recent 1.3 version to
http://www.cjenkins.net/files/lang_select-6.x-1.3.tar.gz where I've
implemented the Javascript with JQuery so now it's working cool :D I'll try
to update the one on the website today or tomorrow.

I've also added a link to the Issue for Active Translation.

Kind regards.

--
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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Language Management

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
Can those who have contact with any Native Language team please let them
know that the information is here.

Thanks,
Michael Wheatland

On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 8:16 PM, Michael Wheatland <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> For those interested, Drupal is a very powerful platform for multi-lingual
> sites.
> A summary presentation of the aspects of the website that involves
> internationalisation can be found here:
>
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibreOffice_Drupal_website_language_management.odp
>
> I would like to invite all people who are involved in Native Language teams
> and translation to give feedback on this presentation here or on the wiki:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Drupal/i18n
>
> One thing to take note of not covered in the presentation:
> Native Language Teams will have their own discussion area much the same way
> the marketing or development team will.
>
> One aspect we need to address is automatic translations and if and when
> they will be used on the site. This is discussed somewhat in the
> presentation.
>
> Thanks to those who initiated this discussion and please let me know if you
> have any questions.
>
> Michael Wheatland*
> *
>


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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Language Management

Michael,

I have several people who alerted me about this sentence:
"In order to ensure a quality end product the website will be developed
in English initially then will be opened up to native language groups
within the LibreOffice community to translate and adapt to best suit
the language and culture."
This is written in the i18n wiki page about Drupal. I think the
Native-language teams will be very reluctant to follow english, as they
like to do things their own way. So please let's not impose frames such
as this to communities who just got out of the infamous Collabnet
infrastructure, and ask them what they want first.

Thanks

Charles.



Le Wed, 1 Dec 2010 15:40:08 +0930,
Michael Wheatland <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Can those who have contact with any Native Language team please let
> them know that the information is here.
>
> Thanks,
> Michael Wheatland
>
> On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 8:16 PM, Michael Wheatland
> <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
> > For those interested, Drupal is a very powerful platform for
> > multi-lingual sites.
> > A summary presentation of the aspects of the website that involves
> > internationalisation can be found here:
> >
> > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibreOffice_Drupal_website_language_management.odp
> >
> > I would like to invite all people who are involved in Native
> > Language teams and translation to give feedback on this
> > presentation here or on the wiki:
> > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Drupal/i18n
> >
> > One thing to take note of not covered in the presentation:
> > Native Language Teams will have their own discussion area much the
> > same way the marketing or development team will.
> >
> > One aspect we need to address is automatic translations and if and
> > when they will be used on the site. This is discussed somewhat in
> > the presentation.
> >
> > Thanks to those who initiated this discussion and please let me
> > know if you have any questions.
> >
> > Michael Wheatland*
> > *
> >
>
>



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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Language Management

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 8:00 PM, Charles-H. Schulz <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Michael,
>
> I have several people who alerted me about this sentence:
> "In order to ensure a quality end product the website will be developed
> in English initially then will be opened up to native language groups
> within the LibreOffice community to translate and adapt to best suit
> the language and culture."
> This is written in the i18n wiki page about Drupal. I think the
> Native-language teams will be very reluctant to follow english, as they
> like to do things their own way. So please let's not impose frames such
> as this to communities who just got out of the infamous Collabnet
> infrastructure, and ask them what they want first.
>
> Thanks
>
> Charles.
>

I am very keen to get any feedback from the Native Language teams.
To address your concerns, the site must be designed in one language in order
not to cause confusion with administering the infrastructure, setting up
workflows (documentation and designs), designing the interface and
implementing the foundations on which the community will be built.

I cannot think of any way to develop a fully structured site without initial
development in a single language.
To give you an example: What if Google decided that every language team
should develop their own search engine without input from any other team? We
are simply trying to avoid chaos during the initial infrastructure
development.

We already have a very strong multi-national, multi-lingual team working on
the website and I would invite any and all people to have their input into
the site structure and join the Drupal website development team. If people
cannot speak English, I encourage submissions in other languages and we can
use automatic translators to communicate through the mailing list.

I will adjust the phrasing of the paragraph you have highlighted, but let me
assure you that when the time comes for inputting content and pages on the
site every language will be invited to contribute at the same time
(including English). We simply need to set up the infrastructure in a common
language so we are all pulling in the same direction.

One thing to note is that the main site infrastructure will be multilingual
by default (not English). Project teams such as the marketing, website,
documentation and design teams, just to name a few, will be multilingual
which will lower the barriers for all languages to get involved with the
project and not segregate the non-English community.

You mentioned the infamous Collabnet infrastructure and we would be very
interested to hear opinions about how the ideal Native Langauge team
infrastructure could be setup? What features, workflows and tools do all
Native Language teams need?

I would appreciate it if you would communicate this back to the people who
have raised concern.

Michael Wheatland


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Language Management

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
Le 2010-12-01 01:10, Michael Wheatland a écrit :
> Can those who have contact with any Native Language team please let them
> know that the information is here.
>
> Thanks,
> Michael Wheatland

I have left a copy of your note on the localisation list as well as one
on the French list.

Marc



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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Language Management

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
Michael,


Le Wed, 1 Dec 2010 22:00:12 +0930,
Michael Wheatland <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 8:00 PM, Charles-H. Schulz <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Michael,
> >
> > I have several people who alerted me about this sentence:
> > "In order to ensure a quality end product the website will be
> > developed in English initially then will be opened up to native
> > language groups within the LibreOffice community to translate and
> > adapt to best suit the language and culture."
> > This is written in the i18n wiki page about Drupal. I think the
> > Native-language teams will be very reluctant to follow english, as
> > they like to do things their own way. So please let's not impose
> > frames such as this to communities who just got out of the infamous
> > Collabnet infrastructure, and ask them what they want first.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Charles.
> >
>
> I am very keen to get any feedback from the Native Language teams.
> To address your concerns, the site must be designed in one language
> in order not to cause confusion with administering the
> infrastructure, setting up workflows (documentation and designs),
> designing the interface and implementing the foundations on which the
> community will be built.
>
> I cannot think of any way to develop a fully structured site without
> initial development in a single language.
> To give you an example: What if Google decided that every language
> team should develop their own search engine without input from any
> other team? We are simply trying to avoid chaos during the initial
> infrastructure development.

I think -that's my personal feeling here- that we need to have
flexibility; it's one thing to translate a page in several languages,
but it's another one if teams start to open a new, specific page in
their language. If Drupal can do that, then I think it's good.

>
> We already have a very strong multi-national, multi-lingual team
> working on the website and I would invite any and all people to have
> their input into the site structure and join the Drupal website
> development team. If people cannot speak English, I encourage
> submissions in other languages and we can use automatic translators
> to communicate through the mailing list.
>
> I will adjust the phrasing of the paragraph you have highlighted, but
> let me assure you that when the time comes for inputting content and
> pages on the site every language will be invited to contribute at the
> same time (including English). We simply need to set up the
> infrastructure in a common language so we are all pulling in the same
> direction.
>
> One thing to note is that the main site infrastructure will be
> multilingual by default (not English). Project teams such as the
> marketing, website, documentation and design teams, just to name a
> few, will be multilingual which will lower the barriers for all
> languages to get involved with the project and not segregate the
> non-English community.
>
> You mentioned the infamous Collabnet infrastructure and we would be
> very interested to hear opinions about how the ideal Native Langauge
> team infrastructure could be setup? What features, workflows and
> tools do all Native Language teams need?
>
> I would appreciate it if you would communicate this back to the
> people who have raised concern.

Sure, so thanks to Marc who forwarded this to the l10n list, and I
clarified that if possible the discussion should happen on our present
thread.

best,

Charles.


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sophi sophi
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Language Management

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
Hi Michael,
On 30/11/2010 13:46, Michael Wheatland wrote:
> For those interested, Drupal is a very powerful platform for multi-lingual
> sites.
> A summary presentation of the aspects of the website that involves
> internationalisation can be found here:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibreOffice_Drupal_website_language_management.odp

So some feedback on the presentation:
Slide 6: "Functions of the development, marketing, design and
documentation teams are common to all languages". Marketing and
documentation workflows are not common to all languages. Marketing is
dedicated to countries and of course different for each (see for example
if I remember well the Otto story in Brazil), and documentation workflow
is settled by language teams too.
Slide 8: What is translation phase? We do not have translation phase
else than for the product (UI & HC2).
Slide 9: Categorisation is in pink but I don't see to what it refers.
Slide 10: All along the presentation, it's about adapting translation,
but what if we don't want this page at all? We are creating our own
content depending on the area of interest of the language teams, the
size of the language teams, the representation of the language teams,
etc. The French and German language teams won't use the same interface
as the Fon or Bambara language teams. They never had the chance to
participate under CollabNet infrastructure, I hope that will be possible
now.
Slide 12: of course if we don't want this interface, we will be able to
use another one. For example, we are going to settle mg.libreoffice.org
with only one page named Tonga Soa containing contact information (such
as a phone number and local addresses) for localization in this local
language, could you confirm that it will be possible?
Slide 17: About Automatic translation, you say "Allow people from very
small native language communities to feel part of the community" in term
of inclusion, this is non sense. Again bad English translated will never
give a good understanding to somebody reading a language which is 2nd or
3rd. Believe me, you need to do much more to get those languages on
board, unless you're able to use automatic translation in these very
small language communities.
Slide 18: as already said automatic translation for templates doesn't
work. Even for a given language, you'll have several differences
depending on the country it is used.
>
> I would like to invite all people who are involved in Native Language teams
> and translation to give feedback on this presentation here or on the wiki:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Drupal/i18n

Charles already reacts on that and I second his reflexion. Now, if I
understand well your presentation, we are able to create the interface,
the content, etc. So if it's this way it's ok for me.
>
> One thing to take note of not covered in the presentation:
> Native Language Teams will have their own discussion area much the same way
> the marketing or development team will.

The difference is that we need dedicated lists, such as QA, l10n or
marketing.
>
> One aspect we need to address is automatic translations and if and when they
> will be used on the site. This is discussed somewhat in the presentation.

Also I would like to come back on Quality Assurance. Please consider
that aspect too because the manual tests need to be adapted depending on
the language. We need to test beginning punctuation and end punctuation,
leading spaces, dates, accentuated characters, translation, orientation,
etc depending on the language. So the English test which is the master
can't be automatically translated. By the same way, we use dedicated
documents that need to be attached to the test.
The best for us would be to be able to get those tests on Pootle because
we could use our terminology or glossary tools to get consistency
between the test and the UI.
Also, I've seen the discussion that Danishka initiated about stores.
Please be aware that some language teams already have online stores, may
be you would like get in contact with them first.
>
> Thanks to those who initiated this discussion and please let me know if you
> have any questions.

I hope you don't get me wrong and don't take my remarks as a lack of
consideration or recognition for you work. I'm working with language
communities for a long time (sometime very small ones) and I would like
to make sure to get them with us, hence the energy I put in this
discussion.
I hope this will help you to see our needs and avoid to waste time on
things we won't use finally. I've ccing the l10n list and will ask them
to react to Marc message too.

Kind regards
Sophie


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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Language Management

Hi,

Sophie Gautier wrote (02-12-10 12:10)

> Slide 9: Categorisation is in pink but I don't see to what it refers.

See the colors on slide 8 ;-)

Regards,
Cor

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