Update on Drupal Website Progress

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Progress

WOW, this is a big reply. Sorry.

Sophie,
I think you may be misinterpreting most if not all of my comments.

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Sophie Gautier
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Le 2010-11-22 21:10, Michael Wheatland a écrit :

>>> 1. Localisation teams will still exist in an ecosystem along side the
>>> development, design, marketing groups.
>>> All communications in these groups will be in native languages, but
>>> others can also contribute to them using auto-translations.
>>> Not ideal, but we don't have enough translators to get them to
>>> translate every conversation on the site.
>
> This is where you are mistaken, this is not about localization, it's about
> native language. No localization in these groups is needed concerning their
> work on their sites. No Google translation, no Drupal translation, no Pootle
> translation.

Sorry, I meant local (native language teams). I understand that there
is no need for translations, however there are a lot of discussions on
these lists which would be useful to share, so why shouldn't the
community have translation available for people outside of a native
language group? I am confused by your flat out refusal for the
community to become more transparent and inclusive. Can you clarify
this?

>>> 2. As mentioned before the main site will be structured the same way
>>> for all languages. English is not the default translate to-from
>>> language, it is the simply the fallback if a translation is not
>>> available.
>
> No, each language will structure their site as they want. And English is not
> a fall back. If the page doesn't exist in the given language of the site, it
> doesn't exist at all on any the site.

I think you may be confusing the Silverstripe site with the Drupal
site. In Drupal each native language team can customise their 'native
language' section, but the structure of the main site remains
consistent across languages for quality control reasons.
The layout and structure of the Drupal site remains constant across
languages, but language specific content can be added to individual
pages if required.
As I understand it 'international english' is the primary
communication language of the project, so why would we prefer users be
presented with a 404 error rather than the LibreOffice official
default language version if a specific page has not yet been
translated for their native language?

As I understand it this has been the biggest problem with the
Silverstripe site to date. It seems to be coming along well, but there
is no underlying structure that spans languages. Refer to the
marketing conference call.
Common structure in the main site is very important to ensure that no
languages are second class citizens, especially for common downloads
such as templates and extensions as well as support options.

All that follows looks to be misinterpreted due to this assumption.

>>> ie. if someone in china accesses a page originally written in french
>>> with no other translations available it will display in french.
>
> It's completely stupid, sorry for that. The content of this page may have
> absolutely no relevance for the Chinese Group, why should they have our shop
> pages displayed. Another example, why should you display the German page
> about their Box? it only is relevant for the German Group. Each language
> group has its own life and is not shared by the others every time. We are
> not cloned.

>>> If an english translation is available it will display in english.
>
> And it's not acceptable for a sake of quality. It will give a very poor
> image of our groups.

I am referring to the main site, not the native language groups.
Again, I think misinterpreted due to the mixup between structure in
Drupal as opposed to Silverstripe.
We hope that all translations will be available, if this is the case
you will only see native language.

>  If there
>>>
>>> is a chinese translation available it will display in chinese.
>
> Really irrelevant.

It means that there is a fall back for the fall back. It means people
will never get a 404 error instead of content.
Yes, this is irrelevant in the Silverstripe site as there is no
structure consistency across languages, but in Drupal it is critically
important for the main site to avoid '404 Page not found'. (does not
apply to native language areas)

>>> In terms of the Q&A section, I would expect that there will be a
>>> knowledge base of manually translated questions and answers along side
>>> an ad-hoc section which would be automatically translated. Quality
>>> ad-hoc questions when answered could be moved to the knowledge base
>>> section then manually translated for accuracy. The concept is fluid at
>>> the moment, so if you would like to see any other features please let
>>> us know.
>
> Again, the QA team are used to work together, so don't put constraints where
> they are not needed.

Not QA, Q&A Questions and Answers, not Quality Assurance.
Not sure what constraints you were referring to, but we have not
finished consulting with the quality assurance group yet.
They seem pretty happy with what we are doing so far.

> Currently, all this has my absolute veto.

Each steering committee member has veto power?  I was not aware of that.
If this is the case we must have implemented bylaws. Can you tell me
where to find them?

> Kind regards
> Sophie

Can I suggest that you contact me directly if you are confused about
any of these clarifications of clarifications.

There has already been a lot of consultation and very good work done
by a lot of people on this on the advice of the steering committee
decision for a rapid start Silverstripe site followed by a fully
functioning Drupal community site.
All of the work so far has been observed by Florian out Steering
Committee representative whom has given nothing but positive feedback,
and I must say I am very proud of the efforts of the large and growing
Drupal website team.

The Drupal path forward and structure was published about a month ago
on the Website section of the wiki with very positive feedback.

Thanks,
Michael Wheatland

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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Progress

Hi Michael,

Michael Wheatland wrote (24-11-10 09:46)
> The layout and structure of the Drupal site remains constant across
> languages, but language specific content can be added to individual
> pages if required.

I don't know exactly how I heave to read this.
But it is very likely that the various native languages will have
different pages.

Regards,
Cor

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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Progress

Cor Nouws wrote (24-11-10 10:50)

> Hi Michael,
>
> Michael Wheatland wrote (24-11-10 09:46)
>> The layout and structure of the Drupal site remains constant across
>> languages, but language specific content can be added to individual
>> pages if required.
>
> I don't know exactly how I heave to read this.
> But it is very likely that the various native languages will have
> different pages.

And then I have to be clear myself too ;-) so ...
different pages not only in the sense of different content, but also the
naming of pages will be different.

>
> Regards,
> Cor
>


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Alexandro Colorado Alexandro Colorado
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Progress

In reply to this post by sophi
On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 01:16:12 -0600, Sophie Gautier  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>> Le 2010-11-22 21:10, Michael Wheatland a écrit :
>>> Thanks all for the input to this concept.
>>>
>>> I just wanted to clarify a couple of points:
>>>
>>> 1. Localisation teams will still exist in an ecosystem along side the
>>> development, design, marketing groups.
>>> All communications in these groups will be in native languages, but
>>> others can also contribute to them using auto-translations.
>>> Not ideal, but we don't have enough translators to get them to
>>> translate every conversation on the site.
>
> This is where you are mistaken, this is not about localization, it's  
> about native language. No localization in these groups is needed  
> concerning their work on their sites. No Google translation, no Drupal  
> translation, no Pootle translation.
>>>
>>> 2. As mentioned before the main site will be structured the same way
>>> for all languages. English is not the default translate to-from
>>> language, it is the simply the fallback if a translation is not
>>> available.
>
> No, each language will structure their site as they want. And English is  
> not a fall back. If the page doesn't exist in the given language of the  
> site, it doesn't exist at all on any the site.
>
>>> ie. if someone in china accesses a page originally written in french
>>> with no other translations available it will display in french.
>
> It's completely stupid, sorry for that. The content of this page may  
> have absolutely no relevance for the Chinese Group, why should they have  
> our shop pages displayed. Another example, why should you display the  
> German page about their Box? it only is relevant for the German Group.  
> Each language group has its own life and is not shared by the others  
> every time. We are not cloned.
> If an
>>> english translation is available it will display in english.
>
> And it's not acceptable for a sake of quality. It will give a very poor  
> image of our groups.
>
>   If there
>>> is a chinese translation available it will display in chinese.
>
> Really irrelevant.
>
>>>
>>> In terms of the Q&A section, I would expect that there will be a
>>> knowledge base of manually translated questions and answers along side
>>> an ad-hoc section which would be automatically translated. Quality
>>> ad-hoc questions when answered could be moved to the knowledge base
>>> section then manually translated for accuracy. The concept is fluid at
>>> the moment, so if you would like to see any other features please let
>>> us know.
>
> Again, the QA team are used to work together, so don't put constraints  
> where they are not needed.
>
> Currently, all this has my absolute veto.
>
> Kind regards
> Sophie
> ---
> Founding member of The Document Foundation
>

Sorry I am just chippin in with no background on the conversation aside  
 from the content of this email and the title. Sophie, perhaps you want to  
add how would it work best instead of just saying is not good. Also from  
your comments it seems we should just have separate vhosts for each  
Language. That way it will be completely separate.

I actually have been asking for this since forever, of course the best way  
was just going ahead and doing it ourselves instead of trying to convince  
an admin. But having VPS where we can generate our own site using our  
preferred language and technology was a solution for many of our needs  
that we had in the past. Of course this is taking it a bit to the extreme.  
But I wonder what would be the argument for not doing this. I can think of  
a nightmare to admin +/-72 different VPS but I also can see the benefit of  
having our own selection of technologies to use.

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OOoES A.C - http://oooes.org
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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Progress

In reply to this post by Cor Nouws
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 7:27 PM, Cor Nouws <[hidden email]> wrote:
> And then I have to be clear myself too ;-) so ...
> different pages not only in the sense of different content, but also the
> naming of pages will be different.
>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Cor

By 'Native Languages' if you mean the native language teams then yes,
the site created in the subset of the community will be able to be
structured in any way they want and all in their native language.

If by 'Native Languages' you mean the main website ie. LibreOffice.org
in french, they will have a native language interface, native language
URLs, native language page naming (titles) and native language
content, but the essential structure of the site will remain constant
across all languages as has been established around a month ago. for
example in each language there is a download page, product information
pages for each application, extensions and templates directory (the
actual extensions and templates being common across languages so as to
avoid language bias) etc.

It is encouraged that the message, meaning and layout of each page is
not massively changed from an agreed template (these have not yet been
developed as we are only looking at infrastructure at the moment, but
this will involve extensive consultation with all native language
groups).
This concept will ensure that a good idea or concept implemented in
one language benefits all languages in the community, with the aim to
create a truly international community which is united under one
common goal: "The best possible office suite across all languages".

>I don't know exactly how I heave to read this.
>But it is very likely that the various native languages will have different pages.

I didn't mean in their native language groups (subsection of the main
site). See above.
The Drupal infrastructure enforces a consistent structure on the main
site, this is not an opinion.
In contrast to what some opinions might be, the Drupal development
team is made up of a wide variety of people having a wide variety of
native languages whom along with many others (listen to the marketing
conference calls) have formed a consensus that common structure for
the main site (not in native language groups) is the best way to unite
the community and to ensure each language is equal.

This common structure is under intense development now with
consultation with each segment of the community. If you wish to get
involved please have a look on The Documentation Foundation Wiki.

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Progress

In reply to this post by Alexandro Colorado
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:01 PM, Alexandro Colorado <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sorry I am just chippin in with no background on the conversation aside from
> the content of this email and the title. Sophie, perhaps you want to add how
> would it work best instead of just saying is not good. Also from your
> comments it seems we should just have separate vhosts for each Language.
> That way it will be completely separate.

If native language teams wish to functionally separate from the
community there is nothing stopping that. As can be seen with the
BrOffice branding.
Functional separation will however result in an overall poorer
experience for that local community.
The current advice from the steering committee is to create one
unified site so everyone can benefit from others contributions no
matter what language.

> I actually have been asking for this since forever, of course the best way
> was just going ahead and doing it ourselves instead of trying to convince an
> admin. But having VPS where we can generate our own site using our preferred
> language and technology was a solution for many of our needs that we had in
> the past. Of course this is taking it a bit to the extreme. But I wonder
> what would be the argument for not doing this. I can think of a nightmare to
> admin +/-72 different VPS but I also can see the benefit of having our own
> selection of technologies to use.

Admin of VPS has become very easy with version control systems. Very
simple to update all at once. I am sure this *would* be possible if
the steering committee decided to change their advice, but should we
be going this way?
The real benefits of inclusion into one community is pooled resources
independent of language, multiculturalism resulting in a better office
product for all languages and best of all inclusion into conversation
and discussion for people who's language does not have a large support
base and cannot speak a language that does have a large support base.

I would be more than interested to hear logical reasons to go in a
different direction.

Michael Wheatland

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sophi sophi
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Progress

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
Hi Michael,
On 24/11/2010 11:46, Michael Wheatland wrote:

> WOW, this is a big reply. Sorry.
>
> Sophie,
> I think you may be misinterpreting most if not all of my comments.
>
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Sophie Gautier
> <[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>> Le 2010-11-22 21:10, Michael Wheatland a écrit :
>
>>>> 1. Localisation teams will still exist in an ecosystem along side the
>>>> development, design, marketing groups.
>>>> All communications in these groups will be in native languages, but
>>>> others can also contribute to them using auto-translations.
>>>> Not ideal, but we don't have enough translators to get them to
>>>> translate every conversation on the site.
>>
>> This is where you are mistaken, this is not about localization, it's about
>> native language. No localization in these groups is needed concerning their
>> work on their sites. No Google translation, no Drupal translation, no Pootle
>> translation.
>
> Sorry, I meant local (native language teams). I understand that there
> is no need for translations, however there are a lot of discussions on
> these lists which would be useful to share, so why shouldn't the
> community have translation available for people outside of a native
> language group? I am confused by your flat out refusal for the
> community to become more transparent and inclusive. Can you clarify
> this?

Do you think that somebody for whom French is the second language will
be able to understand my poor English translated by Google or any
automated tool? I'm sorry but I'm sure you understand how it is much
less powerful than discussing the topic on the native language mailing
list and reporting here. This may slow the process in your eyes but will
be much more inclusive than your proposal.

>
>>>> 2. As mentioned before the main site will be structured the same way
>>>> for all languages. English is not the default translate to-from
>>>> language, it is the simply the fallback if a translation is not
>>>> available.
>>
>> No, each language will structure their site as they want. And English is not
>> a fall back. If the page doesn't exist in the given language of the site, it
>> doesn't exist at all on any the site.
>
> I think you may be confusing the Silverstripe site with the Drupal
> site. In Drupal each native language team can customise their 'native
> language' section, but the structure of the main site remains
> consistent across languages for quality control reasons.

This is not needed. Why should we get the structure of the "Why" site,
when it's completely irrelevant in several languages and/or countries?
Do not force the groups to be adapted to the structure, it's the
contrary. You're example with Siverstripe is good because what we get
currently in Silverstripe is exactly what we need. Each group has his
own structure and it's what they want. If I want to read what is on the
Japanese site, I'll ask the Japanese group. It has already worked very
well, see how the language community has grown over the years.

> The layout and structure of the Drupal site remains constant across
> languages, but language specific content can be added to individual
> pages if required.

I don't understand the constant part you're speaking about. We may want
for example to have a download page in French absolutely different from
the en_US one, so how do we manage that? Just display it in English on
the en_US part. And the FR site will have it's French page. No need to
exchange one between another.

> As I understand it 'international english' is the primary
> communication language of the project, so why would we prefer users be
> presented with a 404 error rather than the LibreOffice official
> default language version if a specific page has not yet been
> translated for their native language?

international english is spoken to share the information between all the
groups, but don't see it has the primary communication language. If
there appears to be a 404 error page, then it's a problem with the tool
used, in that case Drupal, because it should be able to handle how the
language groups are used to work and not the contrary.
>
> As I understand it this has been the biggest problem with the
> Silverstripe site to date. It seems to be coming along well, but there
> is no underlying structure that spans languages. Refer to the
> marketing conference call.

It may be an issue for the marketing project I don't know, but not for
the language groups. And don't expect that the marketing page will be
reflected in the language site, they will have their own content for
marketing with their own naming and so on.

> Common structure in the main site is very important to ensure that no
> languages are second class citizens, especially for common downloads
> such as templates and extensions as well as support options.
>
You're still thinking that each language group has the same needs,
objectives, size, understanding, etc. It's simply not the case. Most of
the templates used in one country are not useful in another if there is
no human adaptation, this is exactly a good example to show where l10n
stops.

> All that follows looks to be misinterpreted due to this assumption.
>
>>>> ie. if someone in china accesses a page originally written in french
>>>> with no other translations available it will display in french.
>>
>> It's completely stupid, sorry for that. The content of this page may have
>> absolutely no relevance for the Chinese Group, why should they have our shop
>> pages displayed. Another example, why should you display the German page
>> about their Box? it only is relevant for the German Group. Each language
>> group has its own life and is not shared by the others every time. We are
>> not cloned.
>
>>>> If an english translation is available it will display in english.
>>
>> And it's not acceptable for a sake of quality. It will give a very poor
>> image of our groups.
>
> I am referring to the main site, not the native language groups.
> Again, I think misinterpreted due to the mixup between structure in
> Drupal as opposed to Silverstripe.
> We hope that all translations will be available, if this is the case
> you will only see native language.

And it will display a very poor quality, sorry to repeat it. I'm sure
that most of the language teams will tell you the same as I'm saying.
>
>>   If there
>>>>
>>>> is a chinese translation available it will display in chinese.
>>
>> Really irrelevant.
>
> It means that there is a fall back for the fall back. It means people
> will never get a 404 error instead of content.

There should get not 404 error, this should not be displayed at all.

> Yes, this is irrelevant in the Silverstripe site as there is no
> structure consistency across languages, but in Drupal it is critically
> important for the main site to avoid '404 Page not found'. (does not
> apply to native language areas)

So you should consider the main en_US site as the other language sites.
No difference, don't display a 404 error page and don't display content
that doesn't exist in the en_US language.

>
>>>> In terms of the Q&A section, I would expect that there will be a
>>>> knowledge base of manually translated questions and answers along side
>>>> an ad-hoc section which would be automatically translated. Quality
>>>> ad-hoc questions when answered could be moved to the knowledge base
>>>> section then manually translated for accuracy. The concept is fluid at
>>>> the moment, so if you would like to see any other features please let
>>>> us know.
>>
>> Again, the QA team are used to work together, so don't put constraints where
>> they are not needed.
>
> Not QA, Q&A Questions and Answers, not Quality Assurance.

Oups, sorry, I'm to QA addict here ;-)

> Not sure what constraints you were referring to, but we have not
> finished consulting with the quality assurance group yet.
> They seem pretty happy with what we are doing so far.

Where is it? as a contributor of the QA team I would like to see the
proposal. Be careful also here that some native language teams will
adapt there pages depending on the resources they have, we are not equal
here also.
>
>> Currently, all this has my absolute veto.
>
> Each steering committee member has veto power?

My veto as a contributing member, sorry, it was not mean as a SC member.

   I was not aware of that.
> If this is the case we must have implemented bylaws. Can you tell me
> where to find them?

Michael, I'm working with the language groups since years and I'm really
aware of their needs. I'm sorry if I seems to overreact or to be very
categorical. This is really essential that the tool adapts itself to the
concept of the native language community ala OOo and not ala Mozilla. It
is a really different approach and we want to keep this one for
LibreOffice. Imagine also that some of us will never use Drupal and will
manage their own forum and all this will look totally different but will
still be the same strong community. I would like to explain that the
tool won't be what will structure the project and the community, it will
only helps to reflect it if it knows how to adapt to it. And if it
doesn't adapt, the team will use another tool.

>
> Can I suggest that you contact me directly if you are confused about
> any of these clarifications of clarifications.

I'm speaking with you here :-) The other teams are reading so they are
aware of what I don't understand and I'm sure this will help all of us
to go where we want.
>
> There has already been a lot of consultation and very good work done
> by a lot of people on this on the advice of the steering committee
> decision for a rapid start Silverstripe site followed by a fully
> functioning Drupal community site.

Rapid yes, but provided we are all ok on what is implemented.

> All of the work so far has been observed by Florian out Steering
> Committee representative whom has given nothing but positive feedback,
> and I must say I am very proud of the efforts of the large and growing
> Drupal website team.

I'll add the point to our next conf call on Sunday. But as you have
noted you also get the same feedback by Christoph and Cor. And be assure
that my reaction is not to diminish the work you have done, not at all,
I'm aware of the great effort you have provided and I'm very thankful
for it. But the topic is really important to my eyes because it will
have a very big impact on how the native language group will use the tool.
>
> The Drupal path forward and structure was published about a month ago
> on the Website section of the wiki with very positive feedback.

Great, but please, believe my experience here and understand the concept
of the native language community as it has always existed, don't try to
adapt it to Drupal. Currently I know that it won't work this way.

Kind regards
Sophie

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Progress

I didn't want to add to the huge mail already.
I still think something here is lost in translation, or maybe the
drupal terminology.
Drupal is not about taking away control of pages from native language
teams! It is about bringing everyone together under one roof.


We are not suggesting each page for all languages has to be exactly
the same down to each sentence or paragraph or image. The idea is that
a common framework contributed to and agreed by all stakeholders will
enrich all languages on the site as is the concept with the
LibreOffice software. It will also allow easier entry for people in
minority languages to get more involved and create a local language
version of the main LibreOffice website very easily (One thing that is
largely missing at the moment in Silverstripe).

The actual words on the interface such as "Why" as you referred can
Easily be translated into locally relevant terms. For example it would
not be translated to "Pourquoi", it might be translated to
"Caractéristiques" or "Vaut-il mieux" (Sorry, I am sure they are bad
examples). To give a better example the manually translated download
page might be at fr.libreoffice.org/Telecharger the title would not be
'Download' it might be "telechargement-de-libreoffice", it's up to you
.The point is that while the framework stays the same URLs, Titles,
Headings, Content, Layout, Menu names, Links etc. can be changed to
suit your language. Please do not take "framework" to mean literal
translation of terms.

What I mean by structure or framework is this:
Landing page
 -Somewhere to download LibreOffice
     -Somewhere to download LibreOffice for Windows
     -Somewhere to download LibreOffice for Mac
     -Somewhere to download LibreOffice for Linux.
 -Somewhere to find out about LibreOffice Features
 -Somwwhere to Get support for LibreOffice
 -Somewhere to join the LibreOffice Community
 -Somewhere to get news about LibreOffice
 -etc.
(Note I am being very non-specific, because everything else can be
localised including URLS, terminology, page content, EVERYTHING ELSE)

To give an Extreme example, the Brazilian team may choose to label
everything BrOffice, this will still function as expected under this
common framework, but even the term most fundamental to the
LibreOffice project can be changed to suit local teams requirements.

Having a separate local group website seperate from the main one is
not prohibited, in fact it is encouraged (I have already registered
libreofficeaustralia.org). For the main site the Steering Committee
has directed us towards Drupal which provides this type of
multicultural integration and relevant internationalisation very well
on one infrastructure.

Any resources on Drupal (templates, extensions, designs) can also be
localised and translated if required. Also having a common pool of
untranslated resources (whether they are automatically translatable or
not) allows people in minority languages access to resources they
would not normally get with a small local user base, which they can
translate and resubmit if they wish to. This type of infrastructure
would be very difficult to setup on another CMS like silverstripe.

Local Team site and communications:
I fully support local teams and development inside that community, I
believe it would be good for transparency, efficiency and
collaboration if people could peek inside and on rare occasion
contribute. Do you disagree?

To conclude, I have been to the French version of the Silverstripe
site and it currently does not differ in "framework" from any other
language (Not to get mixed up with literally translated phrases, but
the underlying meaning of individual parts of the site).
Are there plans to modify this site away from the underlying framework
that currently exists, and if there are plans would the changes also
benefit other language groups if implemented there? = This is what
Drupal is about.

Please let me know if I am not being crystal clear about anything.
I value your concern as I understand that in the past not speaking
English was like being a second class web citizen, but rest assured
the plan is to embrace equality.

Michael Wheatland

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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Progress

Can I read it short: there is a common framework for all languages and
native language groups can both
  - change content of those pages (if they like) and
  - add other pages too (if they like)?

Thanks,
Cor

Michael Wheatland wrote (24-11-10 13:49)

> I didn't want to add to the huge mail already.
> I still think something here is lost in translation, or maybe the
> drupal terminology.
> Drupal is not about taking away control of pages from native language
> teams! It is about bringing everyone together under one roof.
>
>
> We are not suggesting each page for all languages has to be exactly
> the same down to each sentence or paragraph or image. The idea is that
> a common framework contributed to and agreed by all stakeholders will
> enrich all languages on the site as is the concept with the
> LibreOffice software. It will also allow easier entry for people in
> minority languages to get more involved and create a local language
> version of the main LibreOffice website very easily (One thing that is
> largely missing at the moment in Silverstripe).
>
> The actual words on the interface such as "Why" as you referred can
> Easily be translated into locally relevant terms. For example it would
> not be translated to "Pourquoi", it might be translated to
> "Caractéristiques" or "Vaut-il mieux" (Sorry, I am sure they are bad
> examples). To give a better example the manually translated download
> page might be at fr.libreoffice.org/Telecharger the title would not be
> 'Download' it might be "telechargement-de-libreoffice", it's up to you
> .The point is that while the framework stays the same URLs, Titles,
> Headings, Content, Layout, Menu names, Links etc. can be changed to
> suit your language. Please do not take "framework" to mean literal
> translation of terms.
>
> What I mean by structure or framework is this:
> Landing page
>   -Somewhere to download LibreOffice
>       -Somewhere to download LibreOffice for Windows
>       -Somewhere to download LibreOffice for Mac
>       -Somewhere to download LibreOffice for Linux.
>   -Somewhere to find out about LibreOffice Features
>   -Somwwhere to Get support for LibreOffice
>   -Somewhere to join the LibreOffice Community
>   -Somewhere to get news about LibreOffice
>   -etc.
> (Note I am being very non-specific, because everything else can be
> localised including URLS, terminology, page content, EVERYTHING ELSE)
>
> To give an Extreme example, the Brazilian team may choose to label
> everything BrOffice, this will still function as expected under this
> common framework, but even the term most fundamental to the
> LibreOffice project can be changed to suit local teams requirements.
>
> Having a separate local group website seperate from the main one is
> not prohibited, in fact it is encouraged (I have already registered
> libreofficeaustralia.org). For the main site the Steering Committee
> has directed us towards Drupal which provides this type of
> multicultural integration and relevant internationalisation very well
> on one infrastructure.
>
> Any resources on Drupal (templates, extensions, designs) can also be
> localised and translated if required. Also having a common pool of
> untranslated resources (whether they are automatically translatable or
> not) allows people in minority languages access to resources they
> would not normally get with a small local user base, which they can
> translate and resubmit if they wish to. This type of infrastructure
> would be very difficult to setup on another CMS like silverstripe.
>
> Local Team site and communications:
> I fully support local teams and development inside that community, I
> believe it would be good for transparency, efficiency and
> collaboration if people could peek inside and on rare occasion
> contribute. Do you disagree?
>
> To conclude, I have been to the French version of the Silverstripe
> site and it currently does not differ in "framework" from any other
> language (Not to get mixed up with literally translated phrases, but
> the underlying meaning of individual parts of the site).
> Are there plans to modify this site away from the underlying framework
> that currently exists, and if there are plans would the changes also
> benefit other language groups if implemented there? = This is what
> Drupal is about.
>
> Please let me know if I am not being crystal clear about anything.
> I value your concern as I understand that in the past not speaking
> English was like being a second class web citizen, but rest assured
> the plan is to embrace equality.
>
> Michael Wheatland
>


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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Progress

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
Le 2010-11-24 05:56, Michael Wheatland a écrit :

I think we could call this a problem in communication. Let's reduce it
in as simple terms as possible:

* Drupal offers native language site control.
* Drupal offers a common framework for all native language groups
(changes are possible depending on the native language sites' needs)
* Drupal offers instant translation for site visitors

The "instant translation" will NOT create pages; will NOT add pages to
other native language sites. The "instant translation" tools will enable
users of other native languages, the ability to surf and browse other
native language sites, forums, mailists in their own language. These
tools are in the hope of opening all sites to all visitors regardless of
language barriers. The "instant translation" tools are only to
facilitate a user's ability to browse/surf to other native language
parts of the LibreOffice.org site.

This is what is proposed.

Marc


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bedipp bedipp
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Progress

In reply to this post by sophi
Hi Sophie, all,

I think there are still some misunderstandings in what Michael and the
Drupal team are developing.

I hope I can solve this by giving some examples. Please correct me if
I'm the one misunderstanding the context...


Sophie Gautier schrieb:

> Hi Michael, all,
>
> I'm sorry, I'm currently travelling and really very partially connected,
> but there is a point where I would like to give clarification:
>
> [...]
>
>> (-) All languages will have the same content, some of which will be
>> automatically translated so collaboration can occur across languages.
>> (Forums, News, Extensions, Templates)

Michael speaks here of the main site

http://www.libreoffice.org/

and it's pages like

http://www.libreoffice.org/about.html
http://www.libreoffice.org/why.html

and so on.

Some international resources will be covered too:

http://forum.libreoffice.org/
http://templates.libreoffice.org/

and the like.

All these pages are mainly created in English, but can be translated to
any other language - keeping the structure and content of the pages.

Of course manual translation produces better results, but if there is no
translation existent, the page stays in English.

It might be translated to the language in question by a "google
translate button" or something similar, but all of this stays on the
main site.

I assume that the website will present the main site in the language
detected from the browser that can be modified manually.
>
> You do not mean that the sites in different languages will look the same
> with the same content?

Only for the main site http://www.libreoffice.org

> Language projects need to have their own content
> and do not rely on automatic translation because it deliver very poor
> quality.

For any native language team the content of their language based
sub-site (for French http://fr.libreoffice.org, German
http://de.libreoffice.org and so on) will be created by themselves and
might be totally different from the content of any other native lang page.

It's up to the team if a page like

http://fr.libreoffice.org/why.html

would look like

http://www.libreoffice.org/why.html

if looked at it with a French browser (or modified standard language).


> [...]But for the content, really each project should be able to manage
> it's own content.

It stays independent - only the main page will get a translation that
has not been possible at the main OOo page.

Does this sound reasonable?

I hope I got it right - if not, please correct me!

Best regards

Bernhard

PS: To establish a consistent LibreOffice branding I'd really like to
see common visuals and structures shared among all the different
sub-sites of www.libreoffice.org. Therefore it is crucial to include all
the feedback by the different language teams in the decision on how this
visual identity design should look like. But that's another story - to
be told on [hidden email]...

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Stefan Weigel Stefan Weigel
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Progress

Hi Bernhard,

Am 24.11.2010 19:43, schrieb Bernhard Dippold:

> http://www.libreoffice.org/
>
> and it's pages like

[...]

> All these pages are mainly created in English, but can be translated
> to any other language - keeping the structure and content of the pages.

[...]

> For any native language team the content of their language based
> sub-site (for French http://fr.libreoffice.org, German
> http://de.libreoffice.org and so on) will be created by themselves
> and might be totally different from the content of any other native
> lang page.

Additionally, there can be special links from the NL site to
translated pages in the main site.

For example:

The page http://www.test.libreoffice.org/download/ on the main site
has a german translation inside the main site.

When you browse http://www.de.test.libreoffice.org you can click on
"Download" which actually leads you to the translated page inside
the main page. However it appears to the user as if the german
download page was inside the german NL site.

Gruß

Stefan

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Progress

Sorry about any confusion with this issue of Translations,
localisation and internationalisation.

The Drupal framework is very powerful in this respect and the
confusion has developed due to the original decision to build the site
in English and then reach out to the native language teams. Obviously
a mistake as it seems that they currently feel left out. Let me
reassure all those who have a stake in this that we WILL make sure
Drupal works to suit all language groups requirements. We are still in
the 'infrastructure' or behind the scenes stage and this is very
important to get right before anything else.

I will be very busy working over the next 4 days, but after that I
will create an example presentation so that all language groups, the
documentation team and the marketing team can see what has been built
so far, what is planned and ***Where we need input***.

I would like to discourage speculation until this is produced. There
are quite a few long emails here, very few with the facts 100% right.
Again, our fault for not approaching and explaining this to native
language groups from the start.

Thanks,
Michael Wheatland

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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Update on Drupal Website Progress

Hi Michael,

Thanks for this mail and writing out how it works/worked.
Sometimes it obviously is difficult to explain in three lines what you
want to say ;-)

Regards,
Cor

Michael Wheatland wrote (25-11-10 11:21)

> Sorry about any confusion with this issue of Translations,
> localisation and internationalisation.
>
> The Drupal framework is very powerful in this respect and the
> confusion has developed due to the original decision to build the site
> in English and then reach out to the native language teams. Obviously
> a mistake as it seems that they currently feel left out. Let me
> reassure all those who have a stake in this that we WILL make sure
> Drupal works to suit all language groups requirements. We are still in
> the 'infrastructure' or behind the scenes stage and this is very
> important to get right before anything else.
>
> I will be very busy working over the next 4 days, but after that I
> will create an example presentation so that all language groups, the
> documentation team and the marketing team can see what has been built
> so far, what is planned and ***Where we need input***.
>
> I would like to discourage speculation until this is produced. There
> are quite a few long emails here, very few with the facts 100% right.
> Again, our fault for not approaching and explaining this to native
> language groups from the start.
>
> Thanks,
> Michael Wheatland
>


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