Update to today's call agenda

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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Update to today's call agenda

Dear community,

find below a quick update to today's call agenda:

* Wrt. item #4 (vote proposal), this item will be turned into a
discussion item. The rationale for this is that more input from the
community is sought, before the item can be turned into a vote. We will
in parallel get input from the infra team on this topic.

* Additionally, a conflict of interest accusation was made. The board
will discuss this internally first. As that item arrived too late to be
considered for today's formal agenda, the discussion might take place
before or during the next meeting. Further information will be published
in accordance with our statutes.

* Wrt. updates about the status of a business entity, the board
currently finalizes a statement that will be sent out to the community
within the next days.

Florian

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Cor Nouws-3 Cor Nouws-3
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Re: Update to today's call agenda

Hi Florian,

It looks as if you missed my mail from this morning. That's unfortunate.
But, can you please help me:

Florian Effenberger wrote on 22/05/2020 10:39:

> * Additionally, a conflict of interest accusation was made. The board

Who made that accusation, where and when?

Thanks a lot for you help ;)

Cor

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Simon Phipps Simon Phipps
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Re: Update to today's call agenda

In reply to this post by Florian Effenberger


On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 9:40 AM Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]> wrote:


* Wrt. item #4 (vote proposal), this item will be turned into a
discussion item. The rationale for this is that more input from the
community is sought, before the item can be turned into a vote. We will
in parallel get input from the infra team on this topic.

Thanks for this change, which seems appropriate.

With a view towards making LibreOffice Online (LiOn for short!) available to as many members of our community as possible without inadvertently harming TDF's own members in th eprocess, I propose TDF first make it available for Raspberry Pi. I have written a brief paper explaining the idea, which I have placed in the Members folder here:

Best regards

Simon

 
Daniel Armando Rodriguez Daniel Armando Rodriguez
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LOOL user experience

I'd like to collect experiences on deployment LOOL as it's offered right
now and what people think need to be improved.

I believe we should know what people expects when downloading a docker
img, if it fits the needing or what do they have to deal with.






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Thorsten Behrens Thorsten Behrens
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Re: LOOL user experience

Hi Daniel, all,

Daniel Armando Rodriguez wrote:
> I believe we should know what people expects when downloading a
> docker img, if it fits the needing or what do they have to deal
> with.
>
Depends on who's the target audience of that question, I guess.

Possibly the design, or the website list are better places to discuss
this?

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Simon Phipps Simon Phipps
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Re: LOOL user experience

A survey form would be the best way to go about it. 

Also note that - regardless of package availability - as conceived Libreoffice Online is beyond the scope of most individuals as it requires access to cloud infrastructure, familiarity with certificates and a willingness to manage web security. That's why I have proposed LiOn Pi, which is targeted at individuals.

S. 

{Terse? Mobile!}

On Fri, 22 May 2020, 14:36 Thorsten Behrens, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Daniel, all,

Daniel Armando Rodriguez wrote:
> I believe we should know what people expects when downloading a
> docker img, if it fits the needing or what do they have to deal
> with.
>
Depends on who's the target audience of that question, I guess.

Possibly the design, or the website list are better places to discuss
this?

Cheers,

-- Thorsten
Heiko Tietze-5 Heiko Tietze-5
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Re: LOOL user experience

On 22.05.20 16:09, Simon Phipps wrote:
> A survey form would be the best way to go a about it

Happy to support this but no idea how to start. Ordinary users cannot answer "What's the best solution for you to get LOOL?" neither "Which kind of authentication do you prefer? [OpenFoo, LibreBar, PublicQux]". And isn't the setup kind of a stack that needs to be installed with (Next)Cloud, LOOL backend, and (COOL)-UI?

So what I'd need for a survey is a couple of simple questions that everybody can answer. My preferred type of question is multiple-choice with additional "Other" option.


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Daniel Armando Rodriguez Daniel Armando Rodriguez
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Re: LOOL user experience

In reply to this post by Thorsten Behrens
El 2020-05-22 09:34, Thorsten Behrens escribió:
> Hi Daniel, all,
>
> Daniel Armando Rodriguez wrote:
>> I believe we should know what people expects when downloading a
>> docker img, if it fits the needing or what do they have to deal
>> with.
>>
> Depends on who's the target audience of that question, I guess.

Members, Certified Professionals, sysadmins

> Possibly the design, or the website list are better places to discuss
> this?
>
> Cheers,
>
> -- Thorsten

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Daniel Armando Rodriguez Daniel Armando Rodriguez
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Re: LOOL user experience

In reply to this post by Simon Phipps
El 2020-05-22 10:09, Simon Phipps escribió:

> A survey form would be the best way to go about it.
>
> Also note that - regardless of package availability - as conceived
> Libreoffice Online is beyond the scope of most individuals as it
> requires access to cloud infrastructure, familiarity with certificates
> and a willingness to manage web security. That's why I have proposed
> LiOn Pi, which is targeted at individuals.

At least a sysadmin would be willing to deal with, but as far as I know
currently is hard enough even for such profiles.


> {Terse? Mobile!}
>
> On Fri, 22 May 2020, 14:36 Thorsten Behrens,
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Daniel, all,
>>
>> Daniel Armando Rodriguez wrote:
>>> I believe we should know what people expects when downloading a
>>> docker img, if it fits the needing or what do they have to deal
>>> with.
>>>
>> Depends on who's the target audience of that question, I guess.
>>
>> Possibly the design, or the website list are better places to discuss
>> this?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> -- Thorsten


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Daniel Armando Rodriguez Daniel Armando Rodriguez
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Re: LOOL user experience

In reply to this post by Heiko Tietze-5
El 2020-05-22 10:33, Heiko Tietze escribió:

> On 22.05.20 16:09, Simon Phipps wrote:
>> A survey form would be the best way to go a about it
>
> Happy to support this but no idea how to start. Ordinary users cannot
> answer "What's the best solution for you to get LOOL?" neither "Which
> kind of authentication do you prefer? [OpenFoo, LibreBar, PublicQux]".
> And isn't the setup kind of a stack that needs to be installed with
> (Next)Cloud, LOOL backend, and (COOL)-UI?
>
> So what I'd need for a survey is a couple of simple questions that
> everybody can answer. My preferred type of question is multiple-choice
> with additional "Other" option.


In this case our end user should understood, IMO, be Certified
professionals, members or IT responsible people.

So, maybe this thread can drop such questions as a result.



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Thorsten Behrens Thorsten Behrens
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Re: LOOL user experience

In reply to this post by Heiko Tietze-5
Hi Heiko, all,

Heiko Tietze wrote:
> So what I'd need for a survey is a couple of simple questions that
> everybody can answer. My preferred type of question is
> multiple-choice with additional "Other" option.
>
Thus my (perhaps unintuitive) suggestion to start discussing the
details on the design list - Daniel already listed a number of
different personas (members, certified professionals, and sysadmins),
and it is not unreasonable to assume they might have different needs.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Daniel Armando Rodriguez Daniel Armando Rodriguez
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Re: LOOL user experience

El 2020-05-22 11:52, Thorsten Behrens escribió:

> Hi Heiko, all,
>
> Heiko Tietze wrote:
>> So what I'd need for a survey is a couple of simple questions that
>> everybody can answer. My preferred type of question is
>> multiple-choice with additional "Other" option.
>>
> Thus my (perhaps unintuitive) suggestion to start discussing the
> details on the design list - Daniel already listed a number of
> different personas (members, certified professionals, and sysadmins),
> and it is not unreasonable to assume they might have different needs.


The point has to do with the smooth process they/any must find when
deploying such a solution.




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Simon Phipps Simon Phipps
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Re: LOOL user experience

In reply to this post by Daniel Armando Rodriguez


On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 4:37 PM Daniel Armando Rodriguez <[hidden email]> wrote:
El 2020-05-22 10:33, Heiko Tietze escribió:
> On 22.05.20 16:09, Simon Phipps wrote:
>> A survey form would be the best way to go a about it
>
> Happy to support this but no idea how to start. Ordinary users cannot
> answer "What's the best solution for you to get LOOL?" neither "Which
> kind of authentication do you prefer? [OpenFoo, LibreBar, PublicQux]".
> And isn't the setup kind of a stack that needs to be installed with
> (Next)Cloud, LOOL backend, and (COOL)-UI?
>
> So what I'd need for a survey is a couple of simple questions that
> everybody can answer. My preferred type of question is multiple-choice
> with additional "Other" option.


In this case our end user should understood, IMO, be Certified
professionals, members or IT responsible people.

So, maybe this thread can drop such questions as a result.

That is not acceptable. We should be serving the public,  not a technical elitre.

S.
 

Marco Marinello - Mailing lists Marco Marinello - Mailing lists
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Re: LOOL user experience

In reply to this post by Daniel Armando Rodriguez
Hi all,


in September 2019, to get another project up and running (in which the
main component is NextCloud), I found myself working on LibreOffice Online.

This was totally a pain. The lack of any consistent documentation (until
May 5 in the INSTALL file there was just written "Left as an exercise to
the reader") was one of the biggest problems. The only way was to rely
on old blog posts found on the internet.

Another totally undocumented topic (obviously I refer to the official
documentation on wiki.documentfoundation.org) was the configuration of a
reverse proxy to work with LOOL, essential since configuring LOOL to use
a non-self signed certificate is even harder.

I experienced how the community was once helpful (e.g. addressing me to
the l10n-docker-nightly and explaining the branches) and once, let's
say, less helpful (quote from the IRC "and why do you think we
(Collabora) would want to help you in creating a competing product?").
Needless to say, this has left me stunned: certainly if I write to the
community I don't expect someone to judge if I'm able to declare a
variable in Javascript or not.

Since then, however, much has been done: Online now has at least a
decent documentation which covers the build of a stable version of the
docker container. Many information are though still missing, a reliable
evaluation of the resources needed to have a stable instance and how
many users it could serve, for example. Clustering LOOL even seems to be
an untouched topic for now (to the public, at least).

Therefore, I totally endorse Paolo's proposal. TDF should, in my
opinion, definitely release working stable binaries of online. Many many
associations out there don't have the money or simply don't need a
professional support just the same way it happens for the client version.

I even agree with Simon: deploying online is horribly hard. I've been
working on some Ansible playbook since a while and I think they could be
soon released. The aim is to provide sysadmins (even myself) an easy way
to deploy LOOL. If we have on the Docker HUB an arm64/amrhf image,
having it working on a RaspberryPi would be just a side effect.


All the best,

Marco


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Cor Nouws-3 Cor Nouws-3
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Re: LOOL user experience

Hi Marco,

Marco Marinello - Mailing lists wrote on 22/05/2020 20:39:

> Therefore, I totally endorse Paolo's proposal. TDF should, in my
> opinion, definitely release working stable binaries of online. Many many
> associations out there don't have the money or simply don't need a
> professional support just the same way it happens for the client version.

Thanks for bringing this forward and good to see a future contributor
possibly ;)

What you say, is a clear statement, that we all - the full community -
will think and discuss about when the 'start document', that has been
decided in today's board meeting. I hope that can be ready soon, since
it's a very important and hot topic. I hope you also appreciated the
other parts of the meeting of course.

Greetings,
Cor

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Ilmari Lauhakangas Ilmari Lauhakangas
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Re: LOOL user experience

Cor Nouws kirjoitti 22.5.2020 klo 22.15:

> Hi Marco,
>
> Marco Marinello - Mailing lists wrote on 22/05/2020 20:39:
>
>> Therefore, I totally endorse Paolo's proposal. TDF should, in my
>> opinion, definitely release working stable binaries of online. Many many
>> associations out there don't have the money or simply don't need a
>> professional support just the same way it happens for the client version.
>
> Thanks for bringing this forward and good to see a future contributor
> possibly ;)

Marco has already written docs in the wiki for some months:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/BuildingOnline
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Configuring_a_reverse_proxy_for_LOOL

Ilmari

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Andras Timar Andras Timar
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Re: LOOL user experience

In reply to this post by Marco Marinello - Mailing lists
Hi,

On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 8:40 PM Marco Marinello - Mailing lists <[hidden email]> wrote:
This was totally a pain. The lack of any consistent documentation (until
May 5 in the INSTALL file there was just written "Left as an exercise to
the reader") was one of the biggest problems. The only way was to rely
on old blog posts found on the internet.

Until recently the consensus was that TDF releases source tarballs for LOOL. So there was no demand to write documentation how to create packages, how to build a "product".

On the other hand it is fully documented in the source code in README files how to build as a developer, if someone wanted to hack on the code.

The docker/l10n-docker-nightly.sh is also quite self-explanatory. (For those, who don't know what it is: it builds a docker image from source.)

 

Another totally undocumented topic (obviously I refer to the official
documentation on wiki.documentfoundation.org) was the configuration of a
reverse proxy to work with LOOL, essential since configuring LOOL to use
a non-self signed certificate is even harder.

As TDF did not release binaries, I don't know who would look for such documentation in TDF wiki. Collabora published documentation for CODE, e.g.:


But there are other good sources of information, too, from integrators.

I even agree with Simon: deploying online is horribly hard. I've been


I disagree. It's a myth. Yes, it can be hard, when firewalls, load balancers, 50000 users etc. are involved. It's the case when one needs professional support. But for the hobbyist, how hard is it to install CODE with a few clicks in Univention, or to follow my "5 minute" guides?


Regards,
Andras

Daniel Armando Rodriguez Daniel Armando Rodriguez
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Re: LOOL user experience

In reply to this post by Simon Phipps
El 2020-05-22 12:30, Simon Phipps escribió:

> On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 4:37 PM Daniel Armando Rodriguez
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> El 2020-05-22 10:33, Heiko Tietze escribió:
>>> On 22.05.20 16:09, Simon Phipps wrote:
>>>> A survey form would be the best way to go a about it
>>>
>>> Happy to support this but no idea how to start. Ordinary users cannot
>>> answer "What's the best solution for you to get LOOL?" neither "Which
>>> kind of authentication do you prefer? [OpenFoo, LibreBar,
>>> PublicQux]".
>>> And isn't the setup kind of a stack that needs to be installed with
>>> (Next)Cloud, LOOL backend, and (COOL)-UI?
>>>
>>> So what I'd need for a survey is a couple of simple questions that
>>> everybody can answer. My preferred type of question is
>>> multiple-choice
>>> with additional "Other" option.
>>
>> In this case our end user should understood, IMO, be Certified
>> professionals, members or IT responsible people.
>>
>> So, maybe this thread can drop such questions as a result.
>
> That is not acceptable. We should be serving the public,  not a
> technical elitre.


That's a missleading, those profiles can help us to reach the endusers.

My personal take is we should get a product as easy to deploy as
WordPress, for instance, to let the end user take the control of their
own cloud.




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Simon Phipps Simon Phipps
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Re: LOOL user experience

In reply to this post by Andras Timar
Hi!

On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 9:06 PM Andras Timar <[hidden email]> wrote:
I disagree. It's a myth. Yes, it can be hard, when firewalls, load balancers, 50000 users etc. are involved. It's the case when one needs professional support. But for the hobbyist, how hard is it to install CODE with a few clicks in Univention, or to follow my "5 minute" guides?

I'm sure you have done a great job for suitably-skilled people wanting a quick evaluation, but the truth is that approach only takes you to the point where the questions start. I have tried to get a LiOn system running at home and have not succeeded in getting anything I can leave running for my family, unlike the Asterisk-based phone system we are using (on a Pi) or the NextCloud appliance we have installed (Pi-based).

This is the LiOn problem TDF needs to fix first to get a TDF-centric user- and skill-base established.

S.

Daniel Armando Rodriguez Daniel Armando Rodriguez
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Re: LOOL user experience

In reply to this post by Marco Marinello - Mailing lists
El 2020-05-22 14:39, Marco Marinello - Mailing lists escribió:

> Hi all,
>
>
> in September 2019, to get another project up and running (in which the
> main component is NextCloud), I found myself working on LibreOffice
> Online.
>
> This was totally a pain. The lack of any consistent documentation
> (until
> May 5 in the INSTALL file there was just written "Left as an exercise
> to
> the reader") was one of the biggest problems. The only way was to rely
> on old blog posts found on the internet.
>
> Another totally undocumented topic (obviously I refer to the official
> documentation on wiki.documentfoundation.org) was the configuration of
> a
> reverse proxy to work with LOOL, essential since configuring LOOL to
> use
> a non-self signed certificate is even harder.
>
> I experienced how the community was once helpful (e.g. addressing me to
> the l10n-docker-nightly and explaining the branches) and once, let's
> say, less helpful (quote from the IRC "and why do you think we
> (Collabora) would want to help you in creating a competing product?").
> Needless to say, this has left me stunned: certainly if I write to the
> community I don't expect someone to judge if I'm able to declare a
> variable in Javascript or not.
>
> Since then, however, much has been done: Online now has at least a
> decent documentation which covers the build of a stable version of the
> docker container. Many information are though still missing, a reliable
> evaluation of the resources needed to have a stable instance and how
> many users it could serve, for example. Clustering LOOL even seems to
> be
> an untouched topic for now (to the public, at least).
>
> Therefore, I totally endorse Paolo's proposal. TDF should, in my
> opinion, definitely release working stable binaries of online. Many
> many
> associations out there don't have the money or simply don't need a
> professional support just the same way it happens for the client
> version.
>
> I even agree with Simon: deploying online is horribly hard. I've been
> working on some Ansible playbook since a while and I think they could
> be
> soon released. The aim is to provide sysadmins (even myself) an easy
> way
> to deploy LOOL. If we have on the Docker HUB an arm64/amrhf image,
> having it working on a RaspberryPi would be just a side effect.
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Marco

Thank you for valuable input Marco

What makes my worry is the response you got about C'bora under TDF's IRC

And I take you words "an easy way to deploy LOOL" should be provided by
TDF, as TDF's mission is to offer a free product to the end user. And
that offer should allow a painless implementation.



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Next » 123