Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

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Mateusz Zasuwik Mateusz Zasuwik
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

Hey

Sorry, but he refused and pointed out that welcome sign is in lower left
corner. I know that is not what you exactly expected, but it's only thing
we have. Maybe he just doesn't have an idea for appropriate performance
your concept? I will try to persuade him to take part in others tasks.

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K-J LibreOffice K-J LibreOffice
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by Jan Holesovsky
Hi Kendy, Mirek, *,
Am 15.10.2013 10:45, schrieb Jan Holesovsky:

[...]

> Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-)
>
> I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome
> information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time
> experience than a 'no recent documents found'...
>
> Sorry for not being clear in my request :-(

What happened with the whole thing? It was somehow lost in discussion.

Do we
- use the proposal Mateusz gave us?
- make any proposal of a sc-"wallpaper"?
- announce it?
- start other things?
- left it all?



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k-j

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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by Jan Holesovsky
Hi Kendy,
Sorry for the late reply.

On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Jan Holesovsky <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Mirek,
>
> Mirek M. píše v Ne 13. 10. 2013 v 18:05 +0200:
>
> > > Oh, when I noticed Kendy's mail I thought about something more like
> that:
> > > https://wiki.**
> documentfoundation.org/File:**Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-**
> > > 1600px.png<
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Wallpaper-LibreOffice-2-1600px.png
> >
> > >
> > > A jpeg which can be changed by user like the personas so that even
> > > companies can replace it with their logo or so.
> >
> >
> > Given that this picture would appear only if no document has been
> opened, I
> > don't see the use of allowing customization of the upfront graphic. (That
> > would just encourage people NOT to open any documents -- that's not what
> we
> > want.) I'd also like to avoid fancy graphics, as it'd be a stark
> difference
> > to go from no recent files with a fancy graphic to a single thumbnail of
> a
> > recent file and the rest of the window blank and, as per our minimalism
> > principle, I'd like to keep our UI as simple as possible.
> >
> > As I understand it, it's not a wallpaper Kendy's looking for, but rather
> an
> > indicator that there are no recent files to display.
> >
> > Care to confirm, Kendy?
>
> Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-)
>
> I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome
> information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time
> experience than a 'no recent documents found'...
>

What do you think about something like
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/3/38/Mirek2-start.png ?

On another note, I have some feedback about the dialog:
1) Icons should be sized based on the global icon size setting. If that's
impossible, large icons should be used. (BTW, it'd be great if it could use
icons from the cmd directory. The icons that are not in there -- I'm
thinking the icons for the individual modules, correct me if I'm wrong --
should be added there and should be adjusted to the icon size standard for
other toolbar icons in the set.)
2) Icons should have standard layout. (I ripped off the layout in my mockup
from gedit, but I'm sure there are official Gnome guidelines somewhere.)
3) It would be excellent if the dialog kept a size separate from the main
module windows (i.e. if it didn't transform into module windows). Unlike
those windows, the dialog is well-suited for small sizes.
4) Despite my wireframe, I'm now thinking that the best place for the
toolbar would be the bottom. The dialog is currently too top-heavy.
5) The tabs look messy -- the active tab has a light gray 1px line on the
bottom that shouldn't be there, and the inactive tabs should be separated
from the thumbnail area by a 1px border. This applies to the tab widget in
general.
6) As I said to you before, it'd be great if the toolbar contents could
adapt to the window size, but I understand if that's impossible to do.
7) As I also said before, I'd love to get rid of the menu bar in that
window, possibly replacing it with a gear menu at the end of the toolbar
(or not replacing it at all).

>
> Sorry for not being clear in my request :-(
>
> Thank you in advance,
> Kendy
>
>

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Michel RENON Michel RENON
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by K-J LibreOffice
Hi,

This thread makes me wake up from my silence for few months.
I've already given up on working in the design team, because it's
useless, but I wanted to express some comments and provide a clear
answer to K-J.

Thanks to Mateusz Zasuwik for his strong feedback !
But I see that there is no real reactions.

Le 24/10/2013 13:06, K-J LibreOffice a écrit :

> Hi Kendy, Mirek, *,
> Am 15.10.2013 10:45, schrieb Jan Holesovsky:
>
> [...]
>
>> Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-)
>>
>> I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome
>> information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time
>> experience than a 'no recent documents found'...
>>
>> Sorry for not being clear in my request :-(
>
> What happened with the whole thing? It was somehow lost in discussion.


First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center is a
huge fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is no design
process :
- a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies,
validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just "It would be useful to
present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do more
fancy stuff." [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX part) are the
same.

- a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX

- the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely
improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread, you
can read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of July, half
time of GSOC.

- he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no blueprint...)

- at the end of GSOC, the start center is unfinished, the UI/UX brings
lot of regressions. Worst of all : some huge lacks in a11y.


>
> Do we
> - use the proposal Mateusz gave us?

While being a very good proposal, it is based on broken foundations.
However, it shows that a skilled/professionnal designer can quickly
propose very interesting mockups, even if the designer seems to be a
graphist (not a UX designer).

> - make any proposal of a sc-"wallpaper"?

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean .
If it is about proposals to add some background image (ie wallpaper),
then it's just some painting on a broken wall, so it's useless.

> - announce it?

No !

> - start other things?
> - left it all?

I propose to mix those 2 points :
  - revert the code of the new start center : LO4.2 should keep the
LO4.1 start center
- start a new process to design a new new start center :
    - involve devs, QA team, a11y team
    - ask some users (specially from MIMO [3])
    - should enhance the current start center or create a new one ?
    - clearly define a UI/UX design (with prototypes), validated by
every team
    - only then, start to implement it

It is a standard process when you want to build anything (a physical
product, a building...).

The way LibreOffice is developed today is the best way to shoot himself
in the foot :
- don't listen to users (is it the Gnome way of doing ? [4])
- no roadmap (Charles clearly said that [5])
- incoherent UI/UX [6][7]
- schizophrenic behavior in design team [8]
- ship unfinished/undesigned features (template manager for LO4.1, and
today the start center)

All this make me feel desperate about LibreOffice. Really. And the facts
are here :
http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/10/20/2310240/forrester-research-shows-steep-decline-in-free-office-suite-stats

As most users start switching to online and mobile version, there is no
free office suite to compete GDocs or Office365 or Office for
iOS/android. (where is LibreOfficeOnLine ? it would have been one answer).

Now back to my silence for a long time.

Regards,

Michel Renon



[1]
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/GSoC/Ideas#Use_Widget_Layout_for_the_Start_Center

[2]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2013-July/002218.html

[3] MIMO is related to some french administrations that are users of LO.
You can ask Arnaud Versini (dev/qa team) who knows some of them.

[4]
http://www.dgsiegel.net/news/2013_07_27-on_why_removing_features_makes_people_unhappy
The last paragraph is abysmal :
"and since i understand why people react this way, i can smilingly fall
back in my chair and enjoy reading mean comments with a bag of popcorn."


[5]
http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/06/03/making-sense-of-the-new-features-in-libreoffice-4-1/ 
:
"When it comes to the reliance of Java, there does not seem to be a
master plan either. To be honest, we at LibreOffice do not really like
master plans. Why? Because we know that a true Free and Open Source
Software project works through its community, and a diverse community of
contributors simply has a diverse set of interests otherwise known as
“itches to scratch”. Therefore we don’t tell contributors to develop
this or that. Patches are submitted and unless they break stuff, do not
work with the existing codebase or simply suck, we accept them. That’s
why this community does not and cannot work based on a master plan."


[6] design team should realize that users are mostly on Windows.
Here are the download stats for OpenOffice :
https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/apache_openoffice_one_year_50 (see
graph 'Trend in OS') : ~90% windows, ~9% mac, ~1% linux.
I guess it should be similar for LO. So it may not be a good idea to
force a Gnome UI for LO. Maybe something neutral, or something that can
be adapted for each OS.

[7] just an example of last minute changes : the last proposal by Mirek
for start center (no personal offense) :
http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg06146.html
- move a toolbar at the bottom : why ? pro/cons ? has it been validated ?
- remove the menu bar : is it technically doable ? what are the side
effects ? Is it ok for all OSes ?...

[8] some devs integrated the sidebar (from IBM/AOO) without telling
other teams (design, qa...). Currently the design design team is divided
between pro and opponents to the sidebar. There is absolutely no
information about what will be the future of the sidebar in LO. Nothing
good can be built with such a situation.


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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

Hello Michel,

I feel I need to address some of your points without talking too much
about the StartCenter proposal (which by the way I like very much).

Comments inline.

Le Fri, 25 Oct 2013 16:37:03 +0200,
Michel Renon <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> This thread makes me wake up from my silence for few months.
> I've already given up on working in the design team, because it's
> useless, but I wanted to express some comments and provide a clear
> answer to K-J.
>
> Thanks to Mateusz Zasuwik for his strong feedback !
> But I see that there is no real reactions.
>
> Le 24/10/2013 13:06, K-J LibreOffice a écrit :
> > Hi Kendy, Mirek, *,
> > Am 15.10.2013 10:45, schrieb Jan Holesovsky:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-)
> >>
> >> I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the
> >> 'welcome information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better
> >> first time experience than a 'no recent documents found'...
> >>
> >> Sorry for not being clear in my request :-(
> >
> > What happened with the whole thing? It was somehow lost in
> > discussion.
>
>
> First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center is a
> huge fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is no design
> process :
> - a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies,
> validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just "It would be useful to
> present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do
> more fancy stuff." [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX part)
> are the same.

It seems you are expecting a professional process of people actually
working on a regular basis for that. I don't think that's the case
here, and it does not change all the skills and talent the team has.

>
> - a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX
>
> - the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely
> improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread,
> you can read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of
> July, half time of GSOC.

We must at least give credit to the Design/UX team for having enforced
a proper whiteboards-based process. Again: this is a community, you
don't expect an homogeneous team to pop and start working out of the
blue.

>
> - he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no
> blueprint...)

Yup, on the other it's called software freedom....

>
> - at the end of GSOC, the start center is unfinished, the UI/UX
> brings lot of regressions. Worst of all : some huge lacks in a11y.
>
>
> >
> > Do we
> > - use the proposal Mateusz gave us?
>
> While being a very good proposal, it is based on broken foundations.

Why are they broken?

> However, it shows that a skilled/professionnal designer can quickly
> propose very interesting mockups, even if the designer seems to be a
> graphist (not a UX designer).

True. But surely we should not burn the said graphist because he's not
an UX designer? If you know about an UX designer who could contribute
his/her time here, please bring him/her here.

>
> > - make any proposal of a sc-"wallpaper"?
>
> Sorry, I don't understand what you mean .
> If it is about proposals to add some background image (ie wallpaper),
> then it's just some painting on a broken wall, so it's useless.

Your judgement, not everyone's.

>
> > - announce it?
>
> No !
>
> > - start other things?
> > - left it all?
>
> I propose to mix those 2 points :
>   - revert the code of the new start center : LO4.2 should keep the
> LO4.1 start center
> - start a new process to design a new new start center :
>     - involve devs, QA team, a11y team

The Design and UX team does involve developers already....

>     - ask some users (specially from MIMO [3])

MIMO can join this mailing list at anytime.

>     - should enhance the current start center or create a new one ?

This is a Free Software project. You can't really stop people from
doing what they want and like, and we are a community.

>     - clearly define a UI/UX design (with prototypes), validated by
> every team

No. It needs validation by the development team for feasibility,
marketing; perhaps NLC if they find something problematic. But asking
each and everyone will not work because you will never reach 100%
agreement. And FWIW I had my share of disagreements with this team.

>     - only then, start to implement it
>
> It is a standard process when you want to build anything (a physical
> product, a building...).

We don't build a product, we build a community. If you want to build a
product, please talk to MS Office, they're pretty good at that.

>
> The way LibreOffice is developed today is the best way to shoot
> himself in the foot :
> - don't listen to users (is it the Gnome way of doing ? [4])

I don't think so, but I assume you know Henry Ford's famous sentence:
"if I were to listen to my customers I'd still be selling horse
carriages".

> - no roadmap (Charles clearly said that [5])

Yes. This is a Free Software Project. Please learn more on how we work.

> - incoherent UI/UX [6][7]

So the process is not perfect.

> - schizophrenic behavior in design team [8]

I disagree.

> - ship unfinished/undesigned features (template manager for LO4.1,
> and today the start center)

We - and specifically this team - have a resources problem, thankfully
not one of talent. Are you a designer? Maybe you could help.

>
> All this make me feel desperate about LibreOffice. Really. And the
> facts are here :
> http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/10/20/2310240/forrester-research-shows-steep-decline-in-free-office-suite-stats
>

It is the end of the world as we know it and since Forrester says
so it must be true. But what do you do of *all the other articles
about LibreOffice*  :-)

> As most users start switching to online and mobile version, there is
> no free office suite to compete GDocs or Office365 or Office for
> iOS/android. (where is LibreOfficeOnLine ? it would have been one
> answer).

Where is your contribution? Seriously, I can't stand this attitude:
negativity and nothing else. If you want to change and improve things,
go ahead. If you are here to complain that life is tough and that we
don't do our jobs right, then go back to your silence, which is not a
solution because you won't change anything that way.

Best,

--
Charles-H. Schulz
Co-founder & Director, The Document Foundation,
Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
Mobile Number: +33 (0)6 98 65 54 24.

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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by Michel RENON
Hi Michel,
This is a meritocracy -- if you're not happy with something, you're welcome
to swoop in and change it. :) (Of course, the community also has to accept
those changes.)

If you'd like to do user studies, please be my guest. Right now, designs
are based on heuristics [1], guidelines [2], and discussions, but of course
it'd be great if they were validated by other means as well.
(I don't have the time and energy to invest in user studies or user testing
right now, which is why they aren't being done. It'd be great if you could
help there.)

I understand you're not happy with the Start Center, and it would've been
ideal if you could have chimed in after the inital call for designs, but
now you can still chime in with suggestions for improvement, user research,
user testing, or propose patches.

If you'd like to chat further, come to today's IRC chat. [3]

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Principles
[2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Guidelines
[3] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings

On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Michel Renon <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This thread makes me wake up from my silence for few months.
> I've already given up on working in the design team, because it's useless,
> but I wanted to express some comments and provide a clear answer to K-J.
>
> Thanks to Mateusz Zasuwik for his strong feedback !
> But I see that there is no real reactions.
>
> Le 24/10/2013 13:06, K-J LibreOffice a écrit :
>
>  Hi Kendy, Mirek, *,
>> Am 15.10.2013 10:45, schrieb Jan Holesovsky:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>  Terribly sorry - best to keep me CC'd for quick turnaround :-)
>>>
>>> I was more looking for a wallpaper (as K-J suggests) or the 'welcome
>>> information' (as Cor said) - I think it gives better first time
>>> experience than a 'no recent documents found'...
>>>
>>> Sorry for not being clear in my request :-(
>>>
>>
>> What happened with the whole thing? It was somehow lost in discussion.
>>
>
>
> First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center is a huge
> fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is no design process :
> - a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies,
> validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just "It would be useful to
> present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do more
> fancy stuff." [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX part) are the
> same.
>
> - a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX
>
> - the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely
> improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread, you can
> read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of July, half time of
> GSOC.
>
> - he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no blueprint...)
>
> - at the end of GSOC, the start center is unfinished, the UI/UX brings lot
> of regressions. Worst of all : some huge lacks in a11y.
>
>
>
>
>> Do we
>> - use the proposal Mateusz gave us?
>>
>
> While being a very good proposal, it is based on broken foundations.
> However, it shows that a skilled/professionnal designer can quickly
> propose very interesting mockups, even if the designer seems to be a
> graphist (not a UX designer).
>
>
>  - make any proposal of a sc-"wallpaper"?
>>
>
> Sorry, I don't understand what you mean .
> If it is about proposals to add some background image (ie wallpaper), then
> it's just some painting on a broken wall, so it's useless.
>
>  - announce it?
>>
>
> No !
>
>
>  - start other things?
>> - left it all?
>>
>
> I propose to mix those 2 points :
>  - revert the code of the new start center : LO4.2 should keep the LO4.1
> start center
> - start a new process to design a new new start center :
>    - involve devs, QA team, a11y team
>    - ask some users (specially from MIMO [3])
>    - should enhance the current start center or create a new one ?
>    - clearly define a UI/UX design (with prototypes), validated by every
> team
>    - only then, start to implement it
>
> It is a standard process when you want to build anything (a physical
> product, a building...).
>
> The way LibreOffice is developed today is the best way to shoot himself in
> the foot :
> - don't listen to users (is it the Gnome way of doing ? [4])
> - no roadmap (Charles clearly said that [5])
> - incoherent UI/UX [6][7]
> - schizophrenic behavior in design team [8]
> - ship unfinished/undesigned features (template manager for LO4.1, and
> today the start center)
>
> All this make me feel desperate about LibreOffice. Really. And the facts
> are here :
> http://it.slashdot.org/story/**13/10/20/2310240/forrester-**
> research-shows-steep-decline-**in-free-office-suite-stats<http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/10/20/2310240/forrester-research-shows-steep-decline-in-free-office-suite-stats>
>
> As most users start switching to online and mobile version, there is no
> free office suite to compete GDocs or Office365 or Office for iOS/android.
> (where is LibreOfficeOnLine ? it would have been one answer).
>
> Now back to my silence for a long time.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michel Renon
>
>
>
> [1] https://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/**Development/GSoC/Ideas#Use_**
> Widget_Layout_for_the_Start_**Center<https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/GSoC/Ideas#Use_Widget_Layout_for_the_Start_Center>
>
> [2] http://lists.freedesktop.org/**archives/libreoffice-ux-**
> advise/2013-July/002218.html<http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2013-July/002218.html>
>
> [3] MIMO is related to some french administrations that are users of LO.
> You can ask Arnaud Versini (dev/qa team) who knows some of them.
>
> [4] http://www.dgsiegel.net/news/**2013_07_27-on_why_removing_**
> features_makes_people_unhappy<http://www.dgsiegel.net/news/2013_07_27-on_why_removing_features_makes_people_unhappy>
> The last paragraph is abysmal :
> "and since i understand why people react this way, i can smilingly fall
> back in my chair and enjoy reading mean comments with a bag of popcorn."
>
>
> [5]
> http://standardsandfreedom.**net/index.php/2013/06/03/**
> making-sense-of-the-new-**features-in-libreoffice-4-1/<http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/06/03/making-sense-of-the-new-features-in-libreoffice-4-1/>:
> "When it comes to the reliance of Java, there does not seem to be a master
> plan either. To be honest, we at LibreOffice do not really like master
> plans. Why? Because we know that a true Free and Open Source Software
> project works through its community, and a diverse community of
> contributors simply has a diverse set of interests otherwise known as
> “itches to scratch”. Therefore we don’t tell contributors to develop this
> or that. Patches are submitted and unless they break stuff, do not work
> with the existing codebase or simply suck, we accept them. That’s why this
> community does not and cannot work based on a master plan."
>
>
> [6] design team should realize that users are mostly on Windows.
> Here are the download stats for OpenOffice :
> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/**entry/apache_openoffice_one_**year_50<https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/apache_openoffice_one_year_50>(see graph 'Trend in OS') : ~90% windows, ~9% mac, ~1% linux.
> I guess it should be similar for LO. So it may not be a good idea to force
> a Gnome UI for LO. Maybe something neutral, or something that can be
> adapted for each OS.
>
> [7] just an example of last minute changes : the last proposal by Mirek
> for start center (no personal offense) :
> http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/design/**msg06146.html<http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg06146.html>
> - move a toolbar at the bottom : why ? pro/cons ? has it been validated ?
> - remove the menu bar : is it technically doable ? what are the side
> effects ? Is it ok for all OSes ?...
>
> [8] some devs integrated the sidebar (from IBM/AOO) without telling other
> teams (design, qa...). Currently the design design team is divided between
> pro and opponents to the sidebar. There is absolutely no information about
> what will be the future of the sidebar in LO. Nothing good can be built
> with such a situation.
>
>

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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

Mirek M. wrote (27-10-13 02:04)
> Hi Michel,
> This is a meritocracy -- if you're not happy with something, you're welcome
> to swoop in and change it. :) (Of course, the community also has to accept
> those changes.)

The problem is that a process is started, that is not always solid
enough to give the professional outcome that is needed. Despite the
enthousiasm and commitment of many people in the community.
You can diliver something that is not finished enough and say to the
ones that are affected: pls repair :)
Same with the template manager. Still broken functionality.
Thus when it's not finished in the sense that you can expect new users
to be enthusiastic (or at least not being putt-off) and exiting
(business) users to be able to work with it, there must be the option to
keep the work back to be more finihed for the next release.

That is what Michael explained in a IMO undertandable and correct way.

Cheers,

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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

Cor Nouws wrote (27-10-13 16:43)

> You can diliver something that is not finished enough and say to the
> ones that are affected: pls repair :)

Obviously should be " You can't diliver something that is not finished
enough and say to the ones that are affected: pls repair :) "

(You can, but it's "not done" IMO)


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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by Michel RENON
Hi Michel,

Michel Renon wrote (25-10-13 16:37)

> I propose to mix those 2 points :
>   - revert the code of the new start center : LO4.2 should keep the
> LO4.1 start center
> - start a new process to design a new new start center :
> [...]

The biggest problem IMO at the moment is the appearance. It's off-puting.
If that cannot be fixed in time I would say: your step 1.
Howver I don't have the idea that it is so bad that a full new process
(your step 2) should be started...

Cheers,
Cor

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Pedro Pedro
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by mirek2
In the case of the new Start Center I think that this proposal is absolutely perfect

http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Welcome-graphics-for-the-Startcenter-in-4-2-tp4077497p4078143.html

I have no idea how Kendy wants to have a Welcome graphic without any text. I think this is as little text as possible... It only requires translating "Welcome" and "No recent documents"...

If the "community also has to accept those changes" can we have a vote on this?

Best regards,
Pedro
sophi sophi
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by Jan Holesovsky
Hi all,

I just want to remind you the deadlines here so nobody is surprised if
they are missed ;)
- Kendy asked for a design for alpĥa 1 which is due for week 45
(November 4 to 10)
- Hard feature freezed & branched libreoffice-4-2 is due for week 47
(November 18 to 24)
- Hard English string & UI freeze is due for week 51 (December 16 to 22)
after this date it will be too late if any string has to be added.
- Hard code freeze & branch libreoffice-4-2-0 is due week 2 (January 6
to 12)
after this date nothing is possible anymore for this release.

So please, makes it possible as soon as you can, we will be able to test
it and have feedback without stressing too much. Thanks in advance :)

Kind regards
Sophie


Le 10/10/2013 11:40, Jan Holesovsky a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> Maybe you have noticed in the daily builds the new Startcenter that
> LibreOffice 4.2 will come up with.  It is focused on improving the user
> experience based on the assumption that the user very probably wants to
> edit documents he/she has edited in the past.
>
> But there is a problem - when they open LibreOffice for the first time,
> there is no recent document, and the Startcenter looks just too empty;
> see here:
>
> http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter.png
>
> It would be great to provide default graphics for the case there is no
> recent document yet - can you please start the call for designs & come
> up with something beautiful & helpful that we could use inside the huge
> white area? :-)
>
> It should be resizable, or able to survive resizing.  I believe we
> should be able to get some text into it too, but hypertext might be
> problematic I'm afraid.
>
> Other than that - looking forward to the designs! :-)  It would be
> awesome to have the designs for Alpha1, in case some programming is
> necessary; so the deadline is 4th November:
>
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/4.2#4.2.0_release
>
> Thank you in advance,
> Kendy
>
>


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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

Hi guys,
It'd be great if we could discuss this on the IRC chat this Sunday at 12:00
UTC and reach a final destination --
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings.

If not, please comment here on specific parts of the proposals and reasons
why they are desirable/undesirable.

Note that the tab bar will have the look defined by the OS, and thus the
document area will most likely be white.

Kendy, do you think the toolbar can be made responsive for this release? If
not, I'd probably agree to go with a sidebar.

I'm also curious if it will be possible to hide the menubar in the Center
and have wizards, the lesser-used document types, and help in a menu at the
end of the toolbar.


On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:39 PM, Sophie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I just want to remind you the deadlines here so nobody is surprised if
> they are missed ;)
> - Kendy asked for a design for alpĥa 1 which is due for week 45
> (November 4 to 10)
> - Hard feature freezed & branched libreoffice-4-2 is due for week 47
> (November 18 to 24)
> - Hard English string & UI freeze is due for week 51 (December 16 to 22)
> after this date it will be too late if any string has to be added.
> - Hard code freeze & branch libreoffice-4-2-0 is due week 2 (January 6
> to 12)
> after this date nothing is possible anymore for this release.
>
> So please, makes it possible as soon as you can, we will be able to test
> it and have feedback without stressing too much. Thanks in advance :)
>
> Kind regards
> Sophie
>
>
> Le 10/10/2013 11:40, Jan Holesovsky a écrit :
> > Hi,
> >
> > Maybe you have noticed in the daily builds the new Startcenter that
> > LibreOffice 4.2 will come up with.  It is focused on improving the user
> > experience based on the assumption that the user very probably wants to
> > edit documents he/she has edited in the past.
> >
> > But there is a problem - when they open LibreOffice for the first time,
> > there is no recent document, and the Startcenter looks just too empty;
> > see here:
> >
> > http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter.png
> >
> > It would be great to provide default graphics for the case there is no
> > recent document yet - can you please start the call for designs & come
> > up with something beautiful & helpful that we could use inside the huge
> > white area? :-)
> >
> > It should be resizable, or able to survive resizing.  I believe we
> > should be able to get some text into it too, but hypertext might be
> > problematic I'm afraid.
> >
> > Other than that - looking forward to the designs! :-)  It would be
> > awesome to have the designs for Alpha1, in case some programming is
> > necessary; so the deadline is 4th November:
> >
> > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/4.2#4.2.0_release
> >
> > Thank you in advance,
> > Kendy
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Sophie Gautier <[hidden email]>
> Tel:+33683901545
> Membership & Certification Committee Member - Co-founder
> The Document Foundation
>
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Samuel Mehrbrodt-2 Samuel Mehrbrodt-2
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

Could you also discuss this Issue please:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70978

I won't be in the Chat, but I have already given my voice in the bug report.

Thanks
Samuel

Am 30.10.2013 23:12, schrieb Mirek M.:
> Hi guys,
> It'd be great if we could discuss this on the IRC chat this Sunday at 12:00
> UTC and reach a final destination --
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings.
>

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Daniel Hulse Daniel Hulse
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by mirek2
Since I won't be able to make it to chat, I'll make a few comments here. Mateusz's design really looks like the best option at this point for a few reasons:

First of all, it looks better. While Mirek's is more likely to integrate into whatever desktop environment it opens in, I don't think that's really that big of a priority for a welcome screen, if at all. Part of the job of a welcome screen is to present the software in a way that is attractive (but not such that it gets in the way), and maybe not just another system component, or generic program. In short, showing that the software is Libreoffice, and giving a good first impression. I think Mateusz's design does that best.

Second, and probably most importantly, Mateusz's design simply seems more usable. The sidebar is really what makes it work. There's enough room for icons and text for each element of Libreoffice, and a wider clicking area for each (This is especially important as many new computers come with touchscreens, which, while it would be ridiculous to design the entire document editor with that in mind, it would be good for people who use touchscreens to be able to do basic things like open a recent document or start a new document easily.) There's also less worry about having enough horizontal area on a screen.

Thirdly, (and not really importantly--this is a really small point) I like Mateusz's design because it has a sidebar, and I think that we should implement the sidebar as a default part of the user interface, because it makes better use of space, is more usable, and makes hidden features more accessible. Having both would be a nice little consistency that would be cool to have.

To be fair, I like Mirek's welcome text for when no documents have been opened. Except open up should just be open. And I think Mateusz's design constantly displaying "Welcome" at the bottom is pretty awkward. It's out of the way enough to not be noticed by most users, and doesn't really say anything helpful or important. And there should be a place in the sidebar to create a formula.

Anyway, that's my not very important opinion.

Daniel

Jan Holesovsky Jan Holesovsky
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by mirek2
Hi Mirek, all,

Mirek M. píše v St 30. 10. 2013 v 23:12 +0100:

> It'd be great if we could discuss this on the IRC chat this Sunday at 12:00
> UTC and reach a final destination --
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings.
>
> If not, please comment here on specific parts of the proposals and reasons
> why they are desirable/undesirable.
>
> Note that the tab bar will have the look defined by the OS, and thus the
> document area will most likely be white.
>
> Kendy, do you think the toolbar can be made responsive for this release? If
> not, I'd probably agree to go with a sidebar.

No; unfortunately I can spend only a very limited time on this, and it
seems to me that implementing the sidebar way (Mateusz friend's design)
will be easier - if that works for you.

Sorry for not being responsive, was traveling the last week.

> I'm also curious if it will be possible to hide the menubar in the Center
> and have wizards, the lesser-used document types, and help in a menu at the
> end of the toolbar.

Best if you try to tweak the appropriate menu.xml, and push it via
gerrit, we cannot get rid of it for good though.  It should be this one:

framework/uiconfig/startmodule/menubar/menubar.xml

All the best,
Kendy


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Jan Holesovsky Jan Holesovsky
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by Cor Nouws
Hi Cor, Michel,

Cor Nouws píše v Ne 27. 10. 2013 v 18:00 +0100:

> > I propose to mix those 2 points :
> >   - revert the code of the new start center : LO4.2 should keep the
> > LO4.1 start center
> > - start a new process to design a new new start center :
> > [...]
>
> The biggest problem IMO at the moment is the appearance. It's off-puting.

I am late to the party it seems, but I'd really like to address this,
because I believe this is misunderstanding we should fix :-)

> If that cannot be fixed in time I would say: your step 1.

The thing is that now, thanks to the great Krisztian's work, the start
center is just an .ui file that _anyone_ can edit in glade to make it
nicer.  I'd really like people here to understand that we have made a
huge effort in the code base (and it is still continuing until we erase
the last .src, and convert it to .ui) so that it is much easier for
anybody in the design team to go, and just fix anything that looks ugly
or does not behave as it should.  Please, PLEASE, start using this power
- just grab an .ui file and start playing.

In the case of the start center, there is a bit of additional
development work necessary to make it look really beautiful [eg. to get
the green background for the buttons for example]; but if anybody here
provided me with .ui that has the buttons at the right places, with the
right descriptions etc. according to the Mateusz's friend's design, I
could focus on that harder pieces only, and I could even have time for
additional stuff like single click to open the document etc.

The file in question is here:

sfx2/uiconfig/ui/startcenter.ui

[http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/tree/sfx2/uiconfig/ui/startcenter.ui]

Glade (if you are not on Linux - where you most probably have it
already) is here:

https://glade.gnome.org/

BTW - you do not have to download the file from the repository, you can
just edit the startcenter.ui in your installation of the daily build,
restart LibreOffice, and see your results immediately.  No iteration
through developers necessary - you have the power to make it behaving
perfectly, and send me the resulting .ui for integration :-)

All the best,
Kendy


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Pedro Pedro
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

Hi Kendy

Jan Holesovsky wrote
BTW - you do not have to download the file from the repository, you can
just edit the startcenter.ui in your installation of the daily build,
restart LibreOffice, and see your results immediately.  No iteration
through developers necessary - you have the power to make it behaving
perfectly, and send me the resulting .ui for integration :-)
It sounded too good to be true :)

I got Glade for Windows 3.14.2 (and it works too! :) )

However, opening startcenter.ui pops the error message
"Failed to load C:\Program Files\LibreOfficeDev 4\share\config\soffice.cfg\sfx\ui\startcenter.ui.
The following required catalogs are unavailable: LibreOffice"

Hope this helps :)
Samuel Mehrbrodt-2 Samuel Mehrbrodt-2
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

You need to add the LibreOffice catalog to Glade (see Glade Settings),
it lives in extras/source/glade.

Am 06.11.2013 18:09, schrieb Pedro:

> Hi Kendy
>
>
> Jan Holesovsky wrote
>> BTW - you do not have to download the file from the repository, you can
>> just edit the startcenter.ui in your installation of the daily build,
>> restart LibreOffice, and see your results immediately.  No iteration
>> through developers necessary - you have the power to make it behaving
>> perfectly, and send me the resulting .ui for integration :-)
> It sounded too good to be true :)
>
> I got Glade for Windows 3.14.2 (and it works too! :) )
>
> However, opening startcenter.ui pops the error message
> "Failed to load C:\Program Files\LibreOfficeDev
> 4\share\config\soffice.cfg\sfx\ui\startcenter.ui.
> The following required catalogs are unavailable: LibreOffice"
>
> Hope this helps :)
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Welcome-graphics-for-the-Startcenter-in-4-2-tp4077497p4081747.html
> Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>


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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by Jan Holesovsky
Hi Kendy

Jan Holesovsky wrote (06-11-13 13:06)

> The thing is that now, thanks to the great Krisztian's work, the start
> center is just an .ui file that _anyone_ can edit in glade to make it
> nicer.  I'd really like people here to understand that we have made a
> huge effort in the code base (and it is still continuing until we erase

I understand the great work that has been done and that there are more/
relatively easy ways to improve how it looks now :)

And I'm really sorry that I did not give enough credits to all the good
work from Krisztian and you and other.

> the last .src, and convert it to .ui) so that it is much easier for
> anybody in the design team to go, and just fix anything that looks ugly
> or does not behave as it should.  Please, PLEASE, start using this power
> - just grab an .ui file and start playing.

I would love to, but alas I'm not able to do that any time soon.

Cheers,

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Jan Holesovsky-4 Jan Holesovsky-4
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

Hi Cor,

Cor Nouws píše v Čt 07. 11. 2013 v 00:49 +0100:

> > the last .src, and convert it to .ui) so that it is much easier for
> > anybody in the design team to go, and just fix anything that looks ugly
> > or does not behave as it should.  Please, PLEASE, start using this power
> > - just grab an .ui file and start playing.
>
> I would love to, but alas I'm not able to do that any time soon.

Sorry, I did not mean you directly :-) [I know you are busy] -  just
wanted to encourage all the people there.  I wanted to stress that an
extremely important part of the work that the developers are doing is to
enable much broader audience that can make the work directly, without
having to block on somebody who would turn designs into actual code.

Actually - it would be fantastic to add it as a requirement to the
Whiteboard process that in case a dialog / other interaction is
designed, it has to appear there as .ui at some (relatively early) stage
too, not only as a mockup.

All the best,
Kendy


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