Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

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Pedro Pedro
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

Hi Kendy, Samuel, all

Jan Holesovsky-4 wrote
Sorry, I did not mean you directly :-) [I know you are busy] -  just
wanted to encourage all the people there.  I wanted to stress that an
extremely important part of the work that the developers are doing is to
enable much broader audience that can make the work directly, without
having to block on somebody who would turn designs into actual code.

Actually - it would be fantastic to add it as a requirement to the
Whiteboard process that in case a dialog / other interaction is
designed, it has to appear there as .ui at some (relatively early) stage
too, not only as a mockup.
I am not a designer or a developer. I just loaded Glade because I thought it would be fun.

I can't get the icons to show (followed the instructions by Samuel http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Welcome-graphics-for-the-Startcenter-in-4-2-tp4077497p4081770.html and at least got rid of the error message)

There is no extras/source/glade folder so I pointed it to %ProgramFiles%\LibreOfficeDev 4\share\glade (which only contains libreoffice-catalog.xml)

I can't even resize a box... Clicking on Help returns "Could not show link: HEAD request failed: 301 Moved Permanently". Right clicking on a object and choosing Read Documentation doesn't do anything.

I think it is a fantastic idea and it is a good starting point. Probably needs more fine tunning (or maybe it simply doesn't apply to Windows users :) )

Thought you might be interested ;)
Rodolfo R Gomes Rodolfo R Gomes
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

Pedro,

for icons/images previewing, you can do as it follows:
- choose an icon theme: galaxy, tango, etc (you can find it in
someplace like LIBREOFFICE_FOLDER/share/config/images_THEMENAME.zip
- extract the chosen icon theme pack into the .UI file folder
- open the .UI file with glade

Hope it helps.
Rodolfo

2013/11/7 Pedro <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Kendy, Samuel, all
>
>
> Jan Holesovsky-4 wrote
>> Sorry, I did not mean you directly :-) [I know you are busy] -  just
>> wanted to encourage all the people there.  I wanted to stress that an
>> extremely important part of the work that the developers are doing is to
>> enable much broader audience that can make the work directly, without
>> having to block on somebody who would turn designs into actual code.
>>
>> Actually - it would be fantastic to add it as a requirement to the
>> Whiteboard process that in case a dialog / other interaction is
>> designed, it has to appear there as .ui at some (relatively early) stage
>> too, not only as a mockup.
>
> I am not a designer or a developer. I just loaded Glade because I thought it
> would be fun.
>
> I can't get the icons to show (followed the instructions by Samuel
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Welcome-graphics-for-the-Startcenter-in-4-2-tp4077497p4081770.html
> and at least got rid of the error message)
>
> There is no extras/source/glade folder so I pointed it to
> %ProgramFiles%\LibreOfficeDev 4\share\glade (which only contains
> libreoffice-catalog.xml)
>
> I can't even resize a box... Clicking on Help returns "Could not show link:
> HEAD request failed: 301 Moved Permanently". Right clicking on a object and
> choosing Read Documentation doesn't do anything.
>
> I think it is a fantastic idea and it is a good starting point. Probably
> needs more fine tunning (or maybe it simply doesn't apply to Windows users
> :) )
>
> Thought you might be interested ;)
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Welcome-graphics-for-the-Startcenter-in-4-2-tp4077497p4081894.html
> Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Pedro Pedro
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

Hi Rodolfo

Rodolfo R Gomes wrote
for icons/images previewing, you can do as it follows:
- choose an icon theme: galaxy, tango, etc (you can find it in
someplace like LIBREOFFICE_FOLDER/share/config/images_THEMENAME.zip
- extract the chosen icon theme pack into the .UI file folder
- open the .UI file with glade
I'm afraid that didn't work... Maybe it's a Windows problem? Or maybe a bug in Glade (the latest version for Windows is 3.14.2 while the current Glade version is 3.16...)

Any other ideas (other than switching OS :) )?
Mark Morin Mark Morin
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

On 11/7/2013 1:07 PM, Pedro wrote:

> Hi Rodolfo
>
>
> Rodolfo R Gomes wrote
>> for icons/images previewing, you can do as it follows:
>> - choose an icon theme: galaxy, tango, etc (you can find it in
>> someplace like LIBREOFFICE_FOLDER/share/config/images_THEMENAME.zip
>> - extract the chosen icon theme pack into the .UI file folder
>> - open the .UI file with glade
> I'm afraid that didn't work... Maybe it's a Windows problem? Or maybe a bug
> in Glade (the latest version for Windows is 3.14.2 while the current Glade
> version is 3.16...)
>
> Any other ideas (other than switching OS :) )?
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Welcome-graphics-for-the-Startcenter-in-4-2-tp4077497p4081972.html
> Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

images.zip is in C:\Program Files (x86)\LibreOffice 4\share\config
copy that and past it in the directory that you have saved StartCenter.ui
unzip the file into images\
in preferences select "from this directory" and browse to images
click on an image widget
look down to "edit image" and note the file name and the folder it is in

maybe this part isn't the "right" way but it worked for me:
I had assumed that glade knew to look in the sub-directories of images/
but it didn't for me so
"calc_all_image" is supposed to be found in \res. I copied all the
contents of res\ to images and *it worked !!!!*. There's at least one
more sub-directory to do this to (cmd\).

changing the path to the file name next to "file name" didn't do
anything. Glade couldn't find it when the path was set right and finds
it after pasting the files (I copied, rather than cut so I'm not going
to say with certainty that the file would still be found after cutting
and pasting the files--but I'm betting it would.

I spent a few hours with trial and error until I hit this. Hope it works
for you. FWIW, the original description didn't work on my linux box either.


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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

Hi guys,
Unfortunately, it doesn't work for me either.
Even after adding extras/source/glade, Glade tells me that it can't find
the LibreOffice catalog, then starts loading StartCenter.ui, but crashes at
7%. :(

BTW, for those trying to find this folder in Program Files, I don't think
you'll be able to find it there. Download the source using git:
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/. (I have no clue how to use
git on Windows. Try googling "git clone on Windows".)


On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 7:42 PM, Mark Morin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11/7/2013 1:07 PM, Pedro wrote:
>
>> Hi Rodolfo
>>
>>
>> Rodolfo R Gomes wrote
>>
>>> for icons/images previewing, you can do as it follows:
>>> - choose an icon theme: galaxy, tango, etc (you can find it in
>>> someplace like LIBREOFFICE_FOLDER/share/config/images_THEMENAME.zip
>>> - extract the chosen icon theme pack into the .UI file folder
>>> - open the .UI file with glade
>>>
>> I'm afraid that didn't work... Maybe it's a Windows problem? Or maybe a
>> bug
>> in Glade (the latest version for Windows is 3.14.2 while the current Glade
>> version is 3.16...)
>>
>> Any other ideas (other than switching OS :) )?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/
>> Welcome-graphics-for-the-Startcenter-in-4-2-tp4077497p4081972.html
>> Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
> images.zip is in C:\Program Files (x86)\LibreOffice 4\share\config
> copy that and past it in the directory that you have saved StartCenter.ui
> unzip the file into images\
> in preferences select "from this directory" and browse to images
> click on an image widget
> look down to "edit image" and note the file name and the folder it is in
>
> maybe this part isn't the "right" way but it worked for me:
> I had assumed that glade knew to look in the sub-directories of images/
> but it didn't for me so
> "calc_all_image" is supposed to be found in \res. I copied all the
> contents of res\ to images and *it worked !!!!*. There's at least one more
> sub-directory to do this to (cmd\).
>
> changing the path to the file name next to "file name" didn't do anything.
> Glade couldn't find it when the path was set right and finds it after
> pasting the files (I copied, rather than cut so I'm not going to say with
> certainty that the file would still be found after cutting and pasting the
> files--but I'm betting it would.
>
> I spent a few hours with trial and error until I hit this. Hope it works
> for you. FWIW, the original description didn't work on my linux box either.
>
>
>
> --
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>
>

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Rodolfo R Gomes Rodolfo R Gomes
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

Mark and Pedro,

sorry, I forgot that Glade bug that ignores the image folder tree...
In fact, you should not only extract theme pack into the same folder
of the .UI as I said, but move 'all' cmd/* content to the same folder.
And any image you need it.

Mirek,
The first time I set the catalog it yells me that also. I reopened
Glade and everything went fine. Glade 3.14.2 @ Debian testing.

Regards,
Rodolfo

2013/11/9 Mirek M. <[hidden email]>:

> Hi guys,
> Unfortunately, it doesn't work for me either.
> Even after adding extras/source/glade, Glade tells me that it can't find
> the LibreOffice catalog, then starts loading StartCenter.ui, but crashes at
> 7%. :(
>
> BTW, for those trying to find this folder in Program Files, I don't think
> you'll be able to find it there. Download the source using git:
> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/. (I have no clue how to use
> git on Windows. Try googling "git clone on Windows".)
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 7:42 PM, Mark Morin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 11/7/2013 1:07 PM, Pedro wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Rodolfo
>>>
>>>
>>> Rodolfo R Gomes wrote
>>>
>>>> for icons/images previewing, you can do as it follows:
>>>> - choose an icon theme: galaxy, tango, etc (you can find it in
>>>> someplace like LIBREOFFICE_FOLDER/share/config/images_THEMENAME.zip
>>>> - extract the chosen icon theme pack into the .UI file folder
>>>> - open the .UI file with glade
>>>>
>>> I'm afraid that didn't work... Maybe it's a Windows problem? Or maybe a
>>> bug
>>> in Glade (the latest version for Windows is 3.14.2 while the current Glade
>>> version is 3.16...)
>>>
>>> Any other ideas (other than switching OS :) )?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/
>>> Welcome-graphics-for-the-Startcenter-in-4-2-tp4077497p4081972.html
>>> Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>> images.zip is in C:\Program Files (x86)\LibreOffice 4\share\config
>> copy that and past it in the directory that you have saved StartCenter.ui
>> unzip the file into images\
>> in preferences select "from this directory" and browse to images
>> click on an image widget
>> look down to "edit image" and note the file name and the folder it is in
>>
>> maybe this part isn't the "right" way but it worked for me:
>> I had assumed that glade knew to look in the sub-directories of images/
>> but it didn't for me so
>> "calc_all_image" is supposed to be found in \res. I copied all the
>> contents of res\ to images and *it worked !!!!*. There's at least one more
>> sub-directory to do this to (cmd\).
>>
>> changing the path to the file name next to "file name" didn't do anything.
>> Glade couldn't find it when the path was set right and finds it after
>> pasting the files (I copied, rather than cut so I'm not going to say with
>> certainty that the file would still be found after cutting and pasting the
>> files--but I'm betting it would.
>>
>> I spent a few hours with trial and error until I hit this. Hope it works
>> for you. FWIW, the original description didn't work on my linux box either.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
>> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-
>> unsubscribe/
>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
>> deleted
>>
>>
>
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Pedro Pedro
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by Mark Morin
Hi Mark

Mark Morin wrote
I spent a few hours with trial and error until I hit this. Hope it works
for you. FWIW, the original description didn't work on my linux box either.
Thank you for your valuable work and detailed directions. Copying the contents of res and cmd to C:\Program Files\LibreOfficeDev 4\share\config\soffice.cfg\sfx\ui worked perfectly

Apparentely this is a known bug in Glade
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Welcome-graphics-for-the-Startcenter-in-4-2-td4077497i40.html#a4082232

I can easily change the icon size (just need to edit the image name from 16 to 32, except for sc_open which is named lc_openfromwriter for the 32x32 pixel version...)

However I can't figure out how to modify the forms to resemble this
http://i.imgur.com/RUfcMlw.jpg

Hope you guys have more luck/are brighter than me... :)

Thank you for the cues!

Best regards,
Pedro
minhsien0330 minhsien0330
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

Dear all:
The new idea is good, but I guess putting the green area "Creat new" to the
left side seems better.

https://70711e21-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/minhsien0330/test/left.jpg

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Pedro Pedro
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

minhsien0330 wrote
The new idea is good, but I guess putting the green area "Creat new" to the
left side seems better.
I am not a designer but I find aesthetically more pleasant on the right side.

But maybe this is because my brain is formatted  to start reading from the left.

From a usability perspective it seems more logic to have the recently opened files displayed first and then the option to create a new one.

Could the green panel be located on the right for LTR languages and on the left for RTL languages? (i.e. the location of the green panel would depend on the UI language :) )

Maybe that is too much to ask? :)

Best regards,
Pedro
Michel RENON Michel RENON
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by Charles-H. Schulz
Hi Charles,


(Sorry for long delay in my answer, but busy in my daily work)
Thanks for taking time to answer.

I think that I should have introduced myself, in order to better explain
my arguments :
I'm a mechanical engineer, software engineer and teacher (in a
professional way : I have diplomas for all of them).
I'm writing software since 1984, when I was teenager. Ok, it was only
bad basic, on an Oric Atmos (!). Then I bought my first Mac in 1987 and
I started to write scientific software form my mechanical studies. Then,
finally, I could learn how to write code professionally.
Since 1992, I wrote mostly scientific software (mechanical, also for
medical), databases, then web sites, and for last 5 years I work with
OpenERP.
Since 1992, I listen to customer's needs and I have to translate that in
code. And given my customer's feedback, I have some skills in "listening
to users".
And since 1987, my goal as a dev is to write software that is really
easy to use, so since 1987, I've done UX design.
My biggest project was a mechanical software for the leading european
aircraft manufacturer, and 12 years after, it's still a success for users.
And another example few weeks ago : the customer wanted a new
functionality, and other dev started something complicated. I just
discussed with people, asking few questions and then identified that
they need not one but three answers. One answer for every context, every
use case. Last but not least, every answer will be very easy to code !
So I'm not a newbie when I talk about UX Design or "listening to users".


(all my answers are inline)

Le 25/10/2013 17:08, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :

> Hello Michel,
>
> I feel I need to address some of your points without talking too much
> about the StartCenter proposal (which by the way I like very much).
>
> Comments inline.
>
> Le Fri, 25 Oct 2013 16:37:03 +0200,
> Michel Renon <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>  [...]
>>
>> First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center is a
>> huge fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is no design
>> process :
>> - a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies,
>> validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just "It would be useful to
>> present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and do
>> more fancy stuff." [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX part)
>> are the same.
>
> It seems you are expecting a professional process of people actually
> working on a regular basis for that. I don't think that's the case
> here, and it does not change all the skills and talent the team has.
>
>>
>> - a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX
>>
>> - the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely
>> improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread,
>> you can read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of
>> July, half time of GSOC.
>
> We must at least give credit to the Design/UX team for having enforced
> a proper whiteboards-based process.

Just compare them with one test I made :
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance

status, schedule, use cases, technical context, metric, measure for each
proposal...
All of these elements are missing in the whiteboards while they are
minimum in any professional design process.


> Again: this is a community, you
> don't expect an homogeneous team to pop and start working out of the
> blue.
>

Devs have created a state-of-the-art process to build LO : repositories,
code review, validations, automatic builds, automatic tests and so on...
Why can't it be extended to the design ?

IMHO, it indicates that UX design and graphics are considered
second-class citizen in open source projects : they are not directly
linked to the code, they are here just to make the software look nice,
so they are not very important.
Even Mirek (Design lead) has difficulties to have is proposals implemented !

My opinion is that the design process should be integrated in the global
building process, just like other type of products (cars, buildings, any
manufactured product...)



>>
>> - he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no
>> blueprint...)
>
> Yup, on the other it's called software freedom....

So LibreOffice is the *only* software/project that has no roadmap !...

it looks like a joke !
I'm sure people from MIMO and other professional users will appreciate
that information.

>>
>> - at the end of GSOC, the start center is unfinished, the UI/UX
>> brings lot of regressions. Worst of all : some huge lacks in a11y.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Do we
>>> - use the proposal Mateusz gave us?
>>
>> While being a very good proposal, it is based on broken foundations.
>
> Why are they broken?
>

no real studies : no goals, no roadmap, no use cases, no metrics...

>> However, it shows that a skilled/professionnal designer can quickly
>> propose very interesting mockups, even if the designer seems to be a
>> graphist (not a UX designer).
>
> True. But surely we should not burn the said graphist because he's not
> an UX designer?

Please read my blog entries about this subject :
http://www.mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-design-process-part-3-analysis/ 
(paragraph "No UX skills/knowledge")
and
http://www.mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-libre-office-design-process-part-4-teams/

tl;dr : UX and UI (graphics) require completely different skills. It's a
common mistake to think they can be handled by the same person ("a
designer") : he just has to draw a screenshot, or change some icons,
some colors (cf dribbble or devianart).
I'm not the only one to fight against that :
http://insideintercom.io/the-dribbblisation-of-design/



> If you know about an UX designer who could contribute
> his/her time here, please bring him/her here.

To be fair, I think that a professional designer won't waste time in an
unstructured team.
Before contributing, a pro designer would ask simple questions :
- who are your users ?
- what do they expect ? what are their problems ?
- what are your goals ? your vision for future versions ?
- what is your roadmap ? your technical constraints ?

As you don't want to /can't answer most of them, I can't imagine any pro
designer will contribute.



A designer's time is as precious as a developer's time.
so when Mickael Meeks wrote:
"Designers should lead by inspiration, good relations with
          developers, and producing designs so compelling that
          developers cannot resist taking time to implement them"

it's a clear misunderstanding of design process : designing takes a lot
of time and energy, and the proposal would be thrown by someone that
just says "I don't like that so I won't code it"...


Another example : the color picker.
How many hours spent in designing that ? (whenever it's completed or not)
Will it be implemented any day ?
You may now understand why people don't rush in to make proposals.

>
>> [...]
>
>>      - clearly define a UI/UX design (with prototypes), validated by
>> every team
>
> No. It needs validation by the development team for feasibility,
> marketing; perhaps NLC if they find something problematic. But asking
> each and everyone will not work because you will never reach 100%
> agreement. And FWIW I had my share of disagreements with this team.

I was not precise enough : I meant one person of each team.
The complete process is described in my blog :
http://www.mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-design-process-part-5-proposal/ 
(STEP3)


>
>>      - only then, start to implement it
>>
>> It is a standard process when you want to build anything (a physical
>> product, a building...).
>
> We don't build a product, we build a community. If you want to build a
> product, please talk to MS Office, they're pretty good at that.

Uh oh... I absolutely do not agree :

TDF and Microsoft have the same kind of product : an office suite.
But they use completely different paths to create those products :
- MS is a private company, with values of Intellectual Property, closed
software
- TDF is a foundation, with values of Free Software

What is important is :
from an user point of view, MS and TDF are similar : they both create an
office suite. And users just want an office suite that works well and
that fulfills theirs needs (in a professional context or not).
And the idea of "building a community" is something internal for TDF :
it's the way TDF is internally organized to create the product.

So LibreOffice is your product. And building a community is an internal
process.



>
>>
>> The way LibreOffice is developed today is the best way to shoot
>> himself in the foot :
>> - don't listen to users (is it the Gnome way of doing ? [4])
>
> I don't think so, but I assume you know Henry Ford's famous sentence:
> "if I were to listen to my customers I'd still be selling horse
> carriages".

Is this sentence your only argument ?
Mine is based on 20 years of listening to users :
we *always* have to listen to users.
And we have to be very careful when analyzing what they said : sometime
we can use directly their requests, but most of the time, we have to
translate, reorganize, mix, split, ask other questions, analyze and
analyze again to guess their real need and find the best solution.
But don't forget that the solution is an answer to their problem. Not
what we want to do.
So we have to listen to them.

KDE devs now also work like that :
http://cordlandwehr.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/interaction-design-for-users/
   "When designing an application for a user, we should focus at his/her
expectations (which are not necessarily ours)."

And another recent article :
http://www.citeworld.com/consumerization/22665/stop-listening-your-users
"Listen, observe, iterate
You shouldn't really stop listening to your users, but the point is you
aren't always going to hear from them exactly what they need."

So, yes, it's not an easy job, but it has to be done.

>
>> - no roadmap (Charles clearly said that [5])
>
> Yes. This is a Free Software Project. Please learn more on how we work.
>
>> - incoherent UI/UX [6][7]
>
> So the process is not perfect.
>
>> - schizophrenic behavior in design team [8]
>
> I disagree.
>
>> - ship unfinished/undesigned features (template manager for LO4.1,
>> and today the start center)
>
> We - and specifically this team - have a resources problem, thankfully
> not one of talent. Are you a designer? Maybe you could help.
>

I already helped : see below.

>>
>> All this make me feel desperate about LibreOffice. Really. And the
>> facts are here :
>> http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/10/20/2310240/forrester-research-shows-steep-decline-in-free-office-suite-stats
>>
>
> It is the end of the world as we know it and since Forrester says
> so it must be true. But what do you do of *all the other articles
> about LibreOffice*  :-)
>
>> As most users start switching to online and mobile version, there is
>> no free office suite to compete GDocs or Office365 or Office for
>> iOS/android. (where is LibreOfficeOnLine ? it would have been one
>> answer).
>
> Where is your contribution?

Just read my wiki page !
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr

> Seriously, I can't stand this attitude:
> negativity and nothing else. If you want to change and improve things,
> go ahead.

I done it :
- a color picker prototype :
http://mr-consultant.net/lo_prototypes/color_picker/v20121229_r14/index.html 
   *I was the first and still the only one to do something like that*
And it was ignored by the design team :
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2012-12-29 [19:18]
This is really shocking because prototypes are foundations of design
process.

- proposals on my wiki page
   specifically, I analyzed the state of Impress 4 :
   and made several proposals :
     - urgent :
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr#Impress_4.0_:_urgent_bugs_and_enhancements
(my mistake was to ask feedback on mailing list instead of creating asap
bug report)
     - short-term :
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/ImpressShortTermModifications
     -
mid-term:https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/ImpressMidTermModifications

   Then I made a proposal about entrance animations for Impress.
   You can see that I followed the process I was talking in my blog
   https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance
   but that proposal was refused by the design lead without any
valid/scientific arguments :
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2013-May/002012.html


   Then I gave the results of some brainstorming about a future UI :
   https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/LibreOfficeNewUX


- articles in my blog : a constructive critic :
http://http://www.mr-consultant.net/blog/category/libreoffice/

Are all my proposals "nothing else" ?



> If you are here to complain that life is tough and that we
> don't do our jobs right, then go back to your silence, which is not a
> solution because you won't change anything that way.
>

Everything I created for LibreOffice is still available in the wiki, in
the mailing list archives. You can use it, if you want, well, if devs want.
You can't tell me I done nothing.

Given your last blog entry
(http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/10/28/forget-about-meeting-customers-expectations-innovation-comes-first/),
its clear that we completely disagree about designing software, so it's
better for me to stop making proposals for LibreOffice for now.
And that last blog entry sadly confirmed that LibreOffice is made by
geeks for geeks only.

Regards,

Michel

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Michel RENON Michel RENON
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by mirek2
Hi Mirek,


Le 27/10/2013 02:04, Mirek M. a écrit :
> Hi Michel,
> This is a meritocracy -- if you're not happy with something, you're
> welcome to swoop in and change it. :) (Of course, the community also has
> to accept those changes.)

As Cor Nouws already said, it's always more difficult to do something
and then modify it again and again than taking time to design it
correctly the first time.
I don't even talk about users getting upset by regular changes.

>
> If you'd like to do user studies, please be my guest. Right now, designs
> are based on heuristics [1],

Too much abstract.

> guidelines [2],

It would be ok, but here is only one (unimplemented ?) widget...

> and discussions,

That's the problem in the design team : too much unstructured discussions !
You should spend your time on making prototypes and user testing in a
scientific way.

> but of
> course it'd be great if they were validated by other means as well.

Till today, the validation is done only with "I like", "I don't like",
"I'd prefer" from the design lead/team.
Creating a validation process means having a global vision, and precise
goals with metrics (goals that can be measured ; ex: nb of clicks to
perform a specific action, or mouse move distance).

> (I don't have the time and energy to invest in user studies or user
> testing right now, which is why they aren't being done. It'd be great if
> you could help there.)

The color picker experience was very interesting :
- in mailing list or in chat, design team spent endless hours trying to
imagine/guess what would be better, based on only one screenshot
- in few hours, I made some html prototypes that allowed to reveal
immediately some important question (live preview or not ?)

And Jacob Nielsen showed that with just 5 users, you find nearly 80% of
UX problems.
(http://www.nngroup.com/articles/why-you-only-need-to-test-with-5-users/)

So I repeat : less discussions, more prototypes & user testing.

>
> I understand you're not happy with the Start Center, and it would've
> been ideal if you could have chimed in after the inital call for
> designs,

When was it done ?
I searched both mailing lists (design and ux-advise) and found nothing
about preparation of Gsoc. It seems that all subjects related to design
were proposed without any preparation in the mailing lists.

The whiteboard for StartCenter was created on 24/07/2013, when GSoc was
half time.
And the first official mail was created by Krisztian Pinter also on
24/07/2013.

==> Design team should already work on subjects and prototypes for
Gsoc'14. And same idea for LO4.4 (it's already too late to make
proposals for LO4.3).

Just read my advise for planning :
http://www.mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-libre-office-design-process-part-7-schedule/


> but now you can still chime in with suggestions for
> improvement, user research, user testing, or propose patches.
>

Even if the design team creates a professional proposal based on user
testing, it would be dependent on dev kindness to implement it.
It looks more politically/diplomatic than meritocracy : it's much easier
to get your proposal implemented if you're friend with one dev.
It's not an offense against devs or design team : it's just the only
human way of doing when there is no official rule.
So, as I said to Charles, it's better for me to stop making proposals
for LibreOffice for now.

BTW, few days ago, I met some people who might be interested by
LibreOffice UX. I hope we can work together and maybe contribute.

Regards,

Michel

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Michel RENON Michel RENON
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by Cor Nouws
Le 27/10/2013 16:43, Cor Nouws a écrit :

> Mirek M. wrote (27-10-13 02:04)
>> Hi Michel,
>> This is a meritocracy -- if you're not happy with something, you're
>> welcome
>> to swoop in and change it. :) (Of course, the community also has to
>> accept
>> those changes.)
>
> The problem is that a process is started, that is not always solid
> enough to give the professional outcome that is needed. Despite the
> enthousiasm and commitment of many people in the community.
> You can diliver something that is not finished enough and say to the
> ones that are affected: pls repair :)
> Same with the template manager. Still broken functionality.
> Thus when it's not finished in the sense that you can expect new users
> to be enthusiastic (or at least not being putt-off) and exiting
> (business) users to be able to work with it, there must be the option to
> keep the work back to be more finihed for the next release.
>
> That is what Michael explained in a IMO undertandable and correct way.

Thanks !
It's always pleasant to read that our opinion is well understood and
supported.

Michel


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Rodolfo R Gomes Rodolfo R Gomes
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by Michel RENON
Hi, Michel.

I just want to say that I'd be glad to help on implementation of the
Color picker once its design is done.
I could do the Comment control on Writer ruler[1], because its
proposal was clear enough to deploy[2].

Regards,
Rodolfo

[1] http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=e047a967b0db8c61dc977b52f3876fc4e385ad77
[2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Comments_Ruler_Control

2013/12/5 Michel Renon <[hidden email]>:
[snip]
> Another example : the color picker.
> How many hours spent in designing that ? (whenever it's completed or not)
> Will it be implemented any day ?

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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by Michel RENON
Hello Michel,

Le Fri, 06 Dec 2013 01:09:37 +0100,
Michel Renon <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Hi Charles,
>
>
> (Sorry for long delay in my answer, but busy in my daily work)
> Thanks for taking time to answer.
>
> I think that I should have introduced myself, in order to better
> explain my arguments :
> I'm a mechanical engineer, software engineer and teacher (in a
> professional way : I have diplomas for all of them).
> I'm writing software since 1984, when I was teenager. Ok, it was only
> bad basic, on an Oric Atmos (!). Then I bought my first Mac in 1987
> and I started to write scientific software form my mechanical
> studies. Then, finally, I could learn how to write code
> professionally. Since 1992, I wrote mostly scientific software
> (mechanical, also for medical), databases, then web sites, and for
> last 5 years I work with OpenERP.
> Since 1992, I listen to customer's needs and I have to translate that
> in code. And given my customer's feedback, I have some skills in
> "listening to users".
> And since 1987, my goal as a dev is to write software that is really
> easy to use, so since 1987, I've done UX design.
> My biggest project was a mechanical software for the leading european
> aircraft manufacturer, and 12 years after, it's still a success for
> users. And another example few weeks ago : the customer wanted a new
> functionality, and other dev started something complicated. I just
> discussed with people, asking few questions and then identified that
> they need not one but three answers. One answer for every context,
> every use case. Last but not least, every answer will be very easy to
> code ! So I'm not a newbie when I talk about UX Design or "listening
> to users".

Cool!

>
>
> (all my answers are inline)
>
> Le 25/10/2013 17:08, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
> > Hello Michel,
> >
> > I feel I need to address some of your points without talking too
> > much about the StartCenter proposal (which by the way I like very
> > much).
> >
> > Comments inline.
> >
> > Le Fri, 25 Oct 2013 16:37:03 +0200,
> > Michel Renon <[hidden email]> a écrit :
> >  [...]
> >>
> >> First, I just want to say that what happens for the start center
> >> is a huge fiasco for LibreOffice. It clearly shows that there is
> >> no design process :
> >> - a subject is thrown for GSOC without any initial work, studies,
> >> validated UX design, prototype, nothing. Just "It would be useful
> >> to present few recently used documents there (as thumbnails), and
> >> do more fancy stuff." [1] And all others GSOC subjects (with UI/UX
> >> part) are the same.
> >
> > It seems you are expecting a professional process of people actually
> > working on a regular basis for that. I don't think that's the case
> > here, and it does not change all the skills and talent the team has.
> >
> >>
> >> - a student starts to code, without any information about UI/UX
> >>
> >> - the student then wants to enhance UI/UX and makes some completely
> >> improvised assumptions about what users expect [2]. In this thread,
> >> you can read that Mirek starts a design whiteboard at the end of
> >> July, half time of GSOC.
> >
> > We must at least give credit to the Design/UX team for having
> > enforced a proper whiteboards-based process.
>
> Just compare them with one test I made :
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance
>
> status, schedule, use cases, technical context, metric, measure for
> each proposal...
> All of these elements are missing in the whiteboards while they are
> minimum in any professional design process.

So my question is that how it was possible, with all your expertise,
not to include your process guidance and subprocesses in the design
process as it is documented today.


>
>
> > Again: this is a community, you
> > don't expect an homogeneous team to pop and start working out of the
> > blue.
> >
>
> Devs have created a state-of-the-art process to build LO :
> repositories, code review, validations, automatic builds, automatic
> tests and so on... Why can't it be extended to the design ?
>
> IMHO, it indicates that UX design and graphics are considered
> second-class citizen in open source projects : they are not directly
> linked to the code, they are here just to make the software look
> nice, so they are not very important.
> Even Mirek (Design lead) has difficulties to have is proposals
> implemented !
>

Yes, and while it is not ideal, that's where community processes (not
design ones) enter into place to ensure that contributions from the
design team (or other teams) are taken into account, not necessarily in
an automatic way, but  are at least seriously evaluated.


> My opinion is that the design process should be integrated in the
> global building process, just like other type of products (cars,
> buildings, any manufactured product...)

But your opinion is wrong, because you think a Free and Open Source
Software project works "just like other type of products". It  does
not, never will, never has.

>
>
>
> >>
> >> - he codes what he wants (because there is no roadmap, no
> >> blueprint...)
> >
> > Yup, on the other it's called software freedom....
>
> So LibreOffice is the *only* software/project that has no roadmap !...

the *only* ? please do list the FOSS projects that *have* a roadmap.
I'm speaking about community led Free and Open Source Software projects,
not corporate projects. It's very different.

>
> it looks like a joke !
> I'm sure people from MIMO and other professional users will
> appreciate that information.

Oh, the people from MIMO know about it, and don't shake the MIMO flag
like a threat. I met them several times a year and they're familiar
with it. As for the joke, Free and Open Source Software IS a joke. The
Linux Kernel is a joke: it has NO  roadmap!

Please do get familiar with how Free and Open Source Software work.
Here's a good start:
http://www.linux-france.org/article/these/cathedrale-bazar/cathedrale-bazar.html 
(in French). You will see that we are crazy, that we are fools, and
that somehow it works.

>
> >>
> >> - at the end of GSOC, the start center is unfinished, the UI/UX
> >> brings lot of regressions. Worst of all : some huge lacks in a11y.
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Do we
> >>> - use the proposal Mateusz gave us?
> >>
> >> While being a very good proposal, it is based on broken
> >> foundations.
> >
> > Why are they broken?
> >
>
> no real studies : no goals, no roadmap, no use cases, no metrics...
>
> >> However, it shows that a skilled/professionnal designer can quickly
> >> propose very interesting mockups, even if the designer seems to be
> >> a graphist (not a UX designer).
> >
> > True. But surely we should not burn the said graphist because he's
> > not an UX designer?
>
> Please read my blog entries about this subject :
> http://www.mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-design-process-part-3-analysis/ 
> (paragraph "No UX skills/knowledge")
> and
> http://www.mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-libre-office-design-process-part-4-teams/
>
> tl;dr : UX and UI (graphics) require completely different skills.
> It's a common mistake to think they can be handled by the same person
> ("a designer") : he just has to draw a screenshot, or change some
> icons, some colors (cf dribbble or devianart).
> I'm not the only one to fight against that :
> http://insideintercom.io/the-dribbblisation-of-design/
>
>

So have you contributed a different proposal?

>
> > If you know about an UX designer who could contribute
> > his/her time here, please bring him/her here.
>
> To be fair, I think that a professional designer won't waste time in
> an unstructured team.
> Before contributing, a pro designer would ask simple questions :
> - who are your users ?
> - what do they expect ? what are their problems ?
> - what are your goals ? your vision for future versions ?
> - what is your roadmap ? your technical constraints ?
>
> As you don't want to /can't answer most of them, I can't imagine any
> pro designer will contribute.
>

On the other hand, and regardless of whether your analysis here is true
or not, we're not going to change the way we are and how we work just
in the hope we might get (unpaid) professional designer who might
become interested in what we do.

>
>
> A designer's time is as precious as a developer's time.
> so when Mickael Meeks wrote:
> "Designers should lead by inspiration, good relations with
>  developers, and producing designs so compelling that
>  developers cannot resist taking time to implement them"
>
> it's a clear misunderstanding of design process : designing takes a
> lot of time and energy, and the proposal would be thrown by someone
> that just says "I don't like that so I won't code it"...
>
>
> Another example : the color picker.
> How many hours spent in designing that ? (whenever it's completed or
> not) Will it be implemented any day ?
> You may now understand why people don't rush in to make proposals.

I certainly know it can be very frustrating for the design team. But
again, aside community processes, I don't see what would work.


>
> >
> >> [...]
> >
> >>      - clearly define a UI/UX design (with prototypes), validated
> >> by every team
> >
> > No. It needs validation by the development team for feasibility,
> > marketing; perhaps NLC if they find something problematic. But
> > asking each and everyone will not work because you will never reach
> > 100% agreement. And FWIW I had my share of disagreements with this
> > team.
>
> I was not precise enough : I meant one person of each team.
> The complete process is described in my blog :
> http://www.mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-design-process-part-5-proposal/ 
> (STEP3)
>

Why not. How come you have not engaged with people here with your
proposal? I might have missed it though.


> >
> >>      - only then, start to implement it
> >>
> >> It is a standard process when you want to build anything (a
> >> physical product, a building...).
> >
> > We don't build a product, we build a community. If you want to
> > build a product, please talk to MS Office, they're pretty good at
> > that.
>
> Uh oh... I absolutely do not agree :
>
> TDF and Microsoft have the same kind of product : an office suite.
> But they use completely different paths to create those products :
> - MS is a private company, with values of Intellectual Property,
> closed software
> - TDF is a foundation, with values of Free Software
>
> What is important is :
> from an user point of view, MS and TDF are similar : they both create
> an office suite. And users just want an office suite that works well
> and that fulfills theirs needs (in a professional context or not).
> And the idea of "building a community" is something internal for
> TDF : it's the way TDF is internally organized to create the product.

> So LibreOffice is your product. And building a community is an
> internal process.


There's nothing internal about that, i the case of a Free Software
project. Haven't you followed that we are not marketing nor doing a
product? The community is what we do. And what you say about MS Office
and LibreOffice being similar for a user does not change it. I believe
people should be free to be "consumers" with LibreOffice, but that the
values we push forward may be communicated to them, and in doing so,
attract them to our community. So in this regard, it's very different,
regardless of a corporate use or a home/private/small business use.
We're not interested in gaining customers. We're interested in more
users and a broader community.


>
>
>
> >
> >>
> >> The way LibreOffice is developed today is the best way to shoot
> >> himself in the foot :
> >> - don't listen to users (is it the Gnome way of doing ? [4])
> >
> > I don't think so, but I assume you know Henry Ford's famous
> > sentence: "if I were to listen to my customers I'd still be selling
> > horse carriages".
>
> Is this sentence your only argument ?
> Mine is based on 20 years of listening to users :
> we *always* have to listen to users.

No it's not my only argument, far from that. But listening to users
often leads you nowhere. Just a few examples:
- users want total macro interoperability.
- users want total document interoperability.
- users don't want to change
- users want something nice and beautiful
- users want everything for free
- users don't care about free software
- users want a mac.

All these above are true even if some are contraddicting some others. It
may not be true for all of them, not for all populations, etc. I wish
you good luck to handle all these at the same time. If you spent 20
years listening to them, then perhaps you should know that there can be
different solutions for each of these categories, but that LibreOffice,
being a community led software development project, is only partially
driven by its users. It is however driven to a large extent by its
contributors. That's where listening to users does not work. I'm not
saying it's useless. I'm not saying it's not worth it, or useful, or
even interesting.  I'm saying that the users' input will not drive the
design and the development of LibreOffice. How we can be that popular
with this attitude may suggest that we might be on to something good :-)

> And we have to be very careful when analyzing what they said :
> sometime we can use directly their requests, but most of the time, we
> have to translate, reorganize, mix, split, ask other questions,
> analyze and analyze again to guess their real need and find the best
> solution. But don't forget that the solution is an answer to their
> problem. Not what we want to do.
> So we have to listen to them.
>
> KDE devs now also work like that :
> http://cordlandwehr.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/interaction-design-for-users/
>    "When designing an application for a user, we should focus at
> his/her expectations (which are not necessarily ours)."
>
> And another recent article :
> http://www.citeworld.com/consumerization/22665/stop-listening-your-users
> "Listen, observe, iterate
> You shouldn't really stop listening to your users, but the point is
> you aren't always going to hear from them exactly what they need."
>
> So, yes, it's not an easy job, but it has to be done.


Again, have you made your proposal to the list when the existing design
process was discussed and set up?


>
> >
> >> - no roadmap (Charles clearly said that [5])
> >
> > Yes. This is a Free Software Project. Please learn more on how we
> > work.
> >
> >> - incoherent UI/UX [6][7]
> >
> > So the process is not perfect.
> >
> >> - schizophrenic behavior in design team [8]
> >
> > I disagree.
> >
> >> - ship unfinished/undesigned features (template manager for LO4.1,
> >> and today the start center)
> >
> > We - and specifically this team - have a resources problem,
> > thankfully not one of talent. Are you a designer? Maybe you could
> > help.
> >
>
> I already helped : see below.
>
> >>
> >> All this make me feel desperate about LibreOffice. Really. And the
> >> facts are here :
> >> http://it.slashdot.org/story/13/10/20/2310240/forrester-research-shows-steep-decline-in-free-office-suite-stats
> >>
> >
> > It is the end of the world as we know it and since Forrester says
> > so it must be true. But what do you do of *all the other articles
> > about LibreOffice*  :-)
> >
> >> As most users start switching to online and mobile version, there
> >> is no free office suite to compete GDocs or Office365 or Office for
> >> iOS/android. (where is LibreOfficeOnLine ? it would have been one
> >> answer).
> >
> > Where is your contribution?
>
> Just read my wiki page !
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr
>
> > Seriously, I can't stand this attitude:
> > negativity and nothing else. If you want to change and improve
> > things, go ahead.
>
> I done it :
> - a color picker prototype :
> http://mr-consultant.net/lo_prototypes/color_picker/v20121229_r14/index.html 
>    *I was the first and still the only one to do something like that*
> And it was ignored by the design team :
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2012-12-29 [19:18]
> This is really shocking because prototypes are foundations of design
> process.
>
> - proposals on my wiki page
>    specifically, I analyzed the state of Impress 4 :
>    and made several proposals :
>      - urgent :
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr#Impress_4.0_:_urgent_bugs_and_enhancements
> (my mistake was to ask feedback on mailing list instead of creating
> asap bug report)
>      - short-term :
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/ImpressShortTermModifications
>      -
> mid-term:https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/ImpressMidTermModifications
>
>    Then I made a proposal about entrance animations for Impress.
>    You can see that I followed the process I was talking in my blog
>    https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance
>    but that proposal was refused by the design lead without any
> valid/scientific arguments :
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2013-May/002012.html
>
>
>    Then I gave the results of some brainstorming about a future UI :
>    https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Michelr/LibreOfficeNewUX
>
>
> - articles in my blog : a constructive critic :
> http://http://www.mr-consultant.net/blog/category/libreoffice/
>
> Are all my proposals "nothing else" ?


Just one remarks and one question:
- I see your proposals are either on your wiki page (your user page)
  or outside the wiki, and outside LibreOffice's infrastructure. You
  realize that for someone like me (and please tell me if I'm  wrong) I
  have never seen any of your contributions before. Have you discussed
  that with the design team?
- I find it hard to believe your proposal was ignored, but again, not
  having been part of it, let me ask Mirek or Alexander: was this
  proposal discussed?

>
>
>
> > If you are here to complain that life is tough and that we
> > don't do our jobs right, then go back to your silence, which is not
> > a solution because you won't change anything that way.
> >
>
> Everything I created for LibreOffice is still available in the wiki,
> in the mailing list archives. You can use it, if you want, well, if
> devs want. You can't tell me I done nothing.

Indeed. I find you quite shy in fact, and I'm serious. To me it does
not look like you were ignored, rather that no one knows about it.
Which is a problem since the start.

>
> Given your last blog entry
> (http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/10/28/forget-about-meeting-customers-expectations-innovation-comes-first/),
> its clear that we completely disagree about designing software, so
> it's better for me to stop making proposals for LibreOffice for now.
> And that last blog entry sadly confirmed that LibreOffice is made by
> geeks for geeks only.


What would be better is that if your proposals were communicated. I've
never seen your name, never read any of your mails (except this thread)
before. I don't read everything on the design list, but  I believe that
if you have not engaged with the design team first, nothing will happen.

Best,

--
Charles-H. Schulz
Co-founder, The Document Foundation,
Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
Mobile Number: +33 (0)6 98 65 54 24.


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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by Michel RENON
Hi Michel,
Sorry for taking so long to respond -- I had a really busy week.

2013/12/6 Michel Renon <[hidden email]>

> Hi Mirek,
>
>
> Le 27/10/2013 02:04, Mirek M. a écrit :
>
>  Hi Michel,
>> This is a meritocracy -- if you're not happy with something, you're
>> welcome to swoop in and change it. :) (Of course, the community also has
>> to accept those changes.)
>>
>
> As Cor Nouws already said, it's always more difficult to do something and
> then modify it again and again than taking time to design it correctly the
> first time.
> I don't even talk about users getting upset by regular changes.


Agreed on going for the best design before development.

>
>
>> If you'd like to do user studies, please be my guest. Right now, designs
>> are based on heuristics [1],
>>
>
> Too much abstract.
>

They might seem abstract at a cursory glance, but they're really quite
well-defined. They seem to have been devised by Alex Faaborg and have been
used to tag FireFox UX bugs.
BTW, if you have some time, I recommend his I/O presentations [1][2].

>
>  guidelines [2],
>>
>
> It would be ok, but here is only one (unimplemented ?) widget...
>

We refer to the latest Gnome guidelines when we don't have guidelines of
our own.
We should expand the guidelines when we hit on topics that the Gnome HIG
does not cover or when we have important reasons to diverge from their
guidelines and create our own.

>
>  and discussions,
>>
>
> That's the problem in the design team : too much unstructured discussions !
> You should spend your time on making prototypes and user testing in a
> scientific way.
>

Please guide the way. :)

>
>  but of
>> course it'd be great if they were validated by other means as well.
>>
>
>
Till today, the validation is done only with "I like", "I don't like", "I'd
> prefer" from the design lead/team.


I feel this relates to your earlier message, so I'll post a snippet:

" Then I made a proposal about entrance animations for Impress. You can see
that I followed the process I was talking in my blog
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ImpressAnimationEntrance but that
proposal was refused by the design lead without any valid/scientific
arguments :http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2013-May/002012.html"

So, first and foremost, where does it say that I'm the design lead? I don't
recall being elected or appointed as one, nor do I recall calling myself
that.
Secondly, "I would rather opt for redesigning the current custom animation
panel than adding a new panel, especially as the task pane is overpopulated
as is." is not a rejection, it's simply me stating my opinion. Please don't
get discouraged so quickly. :)


> Creating a validation process means having a global vision, and precise
> goals with metrics (goals that can be measured ; ex: nb of clicks to
> perform a specific action, or mouse move distance).


The measurable goals you listed can have adverse affects on the UX -- they
put too much focus onto one specific UX problem without considering the
multitude of others. If we take number of clicks as an example, with the
least clicks being the most desirable, and have that as our goal, we could
easily end up with an unusable setup that could suffer from:
* Not enough space given to the document because the we put as many buttons
up front as we could
* Incomprehensible buttons because we shrank the icon size to fit as many
as we could
* Hard-to-target buttons because they've been made too small
* Being too hard to process because of the sheer volume of commands
presented at once
etc.

The principles we have take the broader situation into consideration.
For example, rather than number of clicks, the more broadly-defined
ux-efficiency principle allows for solutions like keyboard shortcuts,
contextual buttons, touch gestures, voice commands, etc., and the other
principles ensure that other important UX aspects aren't abandoned just to
support this principle.

As for the global vision, I wonder what exactly you'd imagine -- please
elaborate.

My take on the issue is that it'd be good to define what the purpose of
each module is and then base our design decisions on that purpose as well
as our principles and guidelines.
For example, if we say Writer is a tool for producing professional-looking
documents intended to be viewed page-by-page, then we should seriously
consider losing Web view (which goes against the page-by-page part) and
FontWork (which, ask any typographer, goes against the
"profesional-looking" part) -- or rather, spinning them off as extensions.
Extensions, in general, are an excellent way to provide features that are
not in the scope of the project, and they've been working excellently for
browsers.
(BTW, losing the FontWork feature wouldn't mean losing rendering of
FontWork/WordArt, but rather just leaving FontWork creation and editing up
to an extension. Whatever filetypes LibreOffice chooses to support should
be rendered as precisely as possible.)
If we say Writer is a tool for editing a range of file formats with full
support of all aspects of the ODF and Microsoft Office formats and with MS
Office feature parity, we'll probably end up forever catching up to what
Microsoft Office does.


>  (I don't have the time and energy to invest in user studies or user
>> testing right now, which is why they aren't being done. It'd be great if
>> you could help there.)
>>
>
> The color picker experience was very interesting :
> - in mailing list or in chat, design team spent endless hours trying to
> imagine/guess what would be better, based on only one screenshot
> - in few hours, I made some html prototypes that allowed to reveal
> immediately some important question (live preview or not ?)
>
> And Jacob Nielsen showed that with just 5 users, you find nearly 80% of UX
> problems.
> (http://www.nngroup.com/articles/why-you-only-need-to-test-with-5-users/)
>
> So I repeat : less discussions, more prototypes & user testing.
>

You're clearly passionate about user testing and have some experience with
it, so please go for it.
I'd love to have someone on the team who does user testing -- if you can do
it, I'm sure the team will listen to the results you have to present.

>
>
>> I understand you're not happy with the Start Center, and it would've
>> been ideal if you could have chimed in after the inital call for
>> designs,
>>
>
> When was it done ?
> I searched both mailing lists (design and ux-advise) and found nothing
> about preparation of Gsoc. It seems that all subjects related to design
> were proposed without any preparation in the mailing lists.
>
> The whiteboard for StartCenter was created on 24/07/2013, when GSoc was
> half time.
> And the first official mail was created by Krisztian Pinter also on
> 24/07/2013.
>

That's what the official call for designs was.

>
> ==> Design team should already work on subjects and prototypes for
> Gsoc'14. And same idea for LO4.4 (it's already too late to make proposals
> for LO4.3).
>

:) Funny, that was the idea with the color picker.
The problem is, there are too many variables here:
1) Will it even be picked up? Should we aim for a broad redesign or rather
a slow evolution through EasyHacks?
2) What can the developer do? What does he want to work on? The scope of
the project is set by the mentor and the developer, not by the designer.
3) Will we have related new features by the time GSoC rolls around? (The
new sidebar could lead to various changes. For color picking, themes could
completely change the way colors are managed.)
4) What UI components will we have at our disposal? Could a new VCL widget
be part of the scope?
5) Should designs count on touch support?
etc.

The template manager fell apart on not having a well-defined scope. There
were several assumptions about the initial design, such as being able to
limit the hierarchy to two levels (significantly simplifying folder
management), to use single-click-to-launch by default (as is the new Gnome
standard, and is quickly becoming standard on other platforms as well), and
to have a split button widget. It seemed as though the initial design
proposal was accepted by the developers, but at the last minute it turned
out that these things couldn't be done, which meant significant changes to
the whole design. In retrospect, the biggest mistake made, IMHO, was a lack
of communication.

Just read my advise for planning :

> http://www.mr-consultant.net/blog/2013/04/thoughts-about-
> libre-office-design-process-part-7-schedule/
>
>
>
>  but now you can still chime in with suggestions for
>> improvement, user research, user testing, or propose patches.
>>
>>
> Even if the design team creates a professional proposal based on user
> testing, it would be dependent on dev kindness to implement it.
> It looks more politically/diplomatic than meritocracy : it's much easier
> to get your proposal implemented if you're friend with one dev.
>

If your proposal has merit, there's a chance a dev will take notice. :)
It works for elementary OS, it can work here.

You also have the option of paying someone to develop it. (Note that not
everything that's developed for LibO gets accepted, but most of it does.)

It's not an offense against devs or design team : it's just the only human
> way of doing when there is no official rule.
> So, as I said to Charles, it's better for me to stop making proposals for
> LibreOffice for now.
>

I'd love for you to do user testing, if you're into that sort of thing.
We'll find some way to get things implemented. :)
UX hackfests could be productive --  BTW, there's one coming up this
February, right after FOSDEM. [3]

>
> BTW, few days ago, I met some people who might be interested by
> LibreOffice UX. I hope we can work together and maybe contribute.
>

Excellent! We can always use more contributors.

>
> Regards,
>
> Michel
>

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJDoxOTyMdk
[2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2exxj4COhU
[3] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Hackfest/FOSDEM2014

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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by Rodolfo R Gomes
Hi Rofolfo,


2013/12/6 Rodolfo <[hidden email]>

> Hi, Michel.
>
> I just want to say that I'd be glad to help on implementation of the
> Color picker once its design is done.
>

Wonderful.
Given that the GSoC project didn't come through and that there's still
uncertainty as to whether themes will be implemented and when, we're taking
an evolutionary approach with the picker.
The first step would be to implement document colors:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67995 .
Having this would allow us to make broader changes to the default color
palette, which we keep the same for compatibility reasons.
It would also pave way for custom colors, making it possible to use a
consistent set of custom colors within a document.

Tell me if you'd like to work on this. :)


> I could do the Comment control on Writer ruler[1], because its
> proposal was clear enough to deploy[2].
>
> Regards,
> Rodolfo
>
> [1]
> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=e047a967b0db8c61dc977b52f3876fc4e385ad77
> [2]
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Comments_Ruler_Control
>
> 2013/12/5 Michel Renon <[hidden email]>:
> [snip]
> > Another example : the color picker.
> > How many hours spent in designing that ? (whenever it's completed or not)
> > Will it be implemented any day ?
>
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>
>

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Rodolfo R Gomes Rodolfo R Gomes
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

As soon as I have some free time, I'll work on that then (although I
would do some other unrelated work on LO also).

By the way, what is those 'themes' about?

Regards.

2013/12/11 Mirek M. <[hidden email]>:

> 2013/12/6 Rodolfo <[hidden email]>
>> I just want to say that I'd be glad to help on implementation of the
>> Color picker once its design is done.
>
> Wonderful.
> Given that the GSoC project didn't come through and that there's still
> uncertainty as to whether themes will be implemented and when, we're taking
> an evolutionary approach with the picker.
> The first step would be to implement document colors:
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67995 .
> Having this would allow us to make broader changes to the default color
> palette, which we keep the same for compatibility reasons.
> It would also pave way for custom colors, making it possible to use a
> consistent set of custom colors within a document.
>
> Tell me if you'd like to work on this. :)

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Michel RENON Michel RENON
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

In reply to this post by Charles-H. Schulz
Hi,

Le 06/12/2013 19:39, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
> Hello Michel,
>
> [...]
>
> Indeed. I find you quite shy in fact, and I'm serious. To me it does
> not look like you were ignored, rather that no one knows about it.
> Which is a problem since the start.


I wouldn't say I'm shy, I'm just polite and I don't want to waste time
and energy in endless discussion (mail or chat). And I understood that
in this mailing list, you have to insist or even be aggressive to
explain/force your UX ideas while I expected professional skills and
democracy, at least meritocracy (I really miss Christoph Noack).



>
>> [...]
>
> What would be better is that if your proposals were communicated. I've
> never seen your name, never read any of your mails (except this thread)
> before.

False !
I wrote articles in my blog about LibreOffice design process in
march/april 2013 and on 11/04/2013 sent an email :
To: [hidden email],
[hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]

So, you had at least one (important !) email from me.

And I had only 2 answers :
- one from Emir Yâsin SARI
- the other from Michael Meeks :
     (short version with my words)
     - "we don't want to take care of your advises"
     - "TDF is very happy with the current design team"

and also few comments directly in the blog, but nobody from the TDF.
So, when someone as Michael Meeks closes the door to my suggestions,
what can I expect ? I would be foolish to insist.


So I can return your argument :
why only 2 person wrote answers to my articles in this ml ?
why didn't you realized at that time that I have some expertise in UX
design ?
why nothing has changed in the design team workflow ? and in the way
devs and designers work together ?


Ans same question for my suggestion to postpone the startcenter : you
ask my reasons to do so, but I explained it in my mail, just read it !


> I don't read everything on the design list, but  I believe that
> if you have not engaged with the design team first, nothing will happen.


Just FYI, I started with project OOo Renaissance ! (May 2009)
(https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D)
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_by_Michel_Renon

My complete proposal as a pdf file (37 pages, 630 Ko)
https://wiki.openoffice.org/w/images/2/26/Proposal_impress_ui_renon3.pdf
(it was far from being perfect because I created it in few nights, while
working for a diploma ; but still interesting ideas)

BTW, you can see that there was already the "dribbblization" problem :
only proposals made with screenshots had strong reviews.


and I'm listed in the initial members of LO design team (but this page
has been archived) :
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Team

BTW, Mirek, there is no information about you.
What is your *real* experience in software design ?
Have you ever produced a professional software ?

For my emails, just look at archive of mailing list and chat logs : I
worked for color picker, template manager.
 From my email client stats, I wrote 77 mails in design list and 52 in
ux-advise.
I agree, I didn't communicated on a regular basis : I'm just a volunteer
and also have a daily job. But when I realized that current design team
lacks basic UX skills (while working on color picker), I lost most of my
motivation and felt it was useless to make proposals.



And the last emails in this mailing list really broke the last bits of
motivation :
- saying officially that design is and will ever be a second class citizen
- saying officially that TDF will never listen to users
- saying officially that nothing will change (no roadmap, no mid/long
term vision, only "bazaar" short term changes) beacuse LO is, as Charles
said, a libertarian project
- design team has no plans to enhance the design process

So I have nothing more to do for LibreOffice.
So this is my last message before unsubscribe.

Michel

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mirek2 mirek2
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Re: Welcome graphics for the Startcenter in 4.2

Hi Michel,

2013/12/13 Michel Renon <[hidden email]>

> Hi,
>
> Le 06/12/2013 19:39, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
>
>> Hello Michel,
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>
>> Indeed. I find you quite shy in fact, and I'm serious. To me it does
>> not look like you were ignored, rather that no one knows about it.
>> Which is a problem since the start.
>>
>
>
> I wouldn't say I'm shy, I'm just polite and I don't want to waste time and
> energy in endless discussion (mail or chat). And I understood that in this
> mailing list, you have to insist or even be aggressive to explain/force
> your UX ideas while I expected professional skills and democracy, at least
> meritocracy (I really miss Christoph Noack).
>
>
>
>
>>  [...]
>>>
>>
>> What would be better is that if your proposals were communicated. I've
>> never seen your name, never read any of your mails (except this thread)
>> before.
>>
>
> False !
> I wrote articles in my blog about LibreOffice design process in
> march/april 2013 and on 11/04/2013 sent an email :
> To: [hidden email], libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.
> freedesktop.org
> Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
>
> So, you had at least one (important !) email from me.
>
> And I had only 2 answers :
> - one from Emir Yāsin SARI
> - the other from Michael Meeks :
>     (short version with my words)
>     - "we don't want to take care of your advises"
>     - "TDF is very happy with the current design team"
>
> and also few comments directly in the blog, but nobody from the TDF.
> So, when someone as Michael Meeks closes the door to my suggestions, what
> can I expect ? I would be foolish to insist.
>
>
> So I can return your argument :
> why only 2 person wrote answers to my articles in this ml ?
> why didn't you realized at that time that I have some expertise in UX
> design ?
> why nothing has changed in the design team workflow ? and in the way devs
> and designers work together ?
>
>
> Ans same question for my suggestion to postpone the startcenter : you ask
> my reasons to do so, but I explained it in my mail, just read it !
>
>
>
>  I don't read everything on the design list, but  I believe that
>> if you have not engaged with the design team first, nothing will happen.
>>
>
>
> Just FYI, I started with project OOo Renaissance ! (May 2009)
> (<a href="https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%">https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%
> 9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D)
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_by_Michel_Renon
>
> My complete proposal as a pdf file (37 pages, 630 Ko)
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/w/images/2/26/Proposal_impress_ui_renon3.pdf
> (it was far from being perfect because I created it in few nights, while
> working for a diploma ; but still interesting ideas)
>
> BTW, you can see that there was already the "dribbblization" problem :
> only proposals made with screenshots had strong reviews.
>
>
> and I'm listed in the initial members of LO design team (but this page has
> been archived) :
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Team
>
> BTW, Mirek, there is no information about you.
> What is your *real* experience in software design ?
> Have you ever produced a professional software ?
>

No. I'm simply a volunteer here, nothing else. :)
As I said before, I was never appointed as a UX lead, and you're welcome to
partake in all the activities I partake in. You can act as the "UX lead",
if you'd like. :)

>
> For my emails, just look at archive of mailing list and chat logs : I
> worked for color picker, template manager.
> From my email client stats, I wrote 77 mails in design list and 52 in
> ux-advise.
> I agree, I didn't communicated on a regular basis : I'm just a volunteer
> and also have a daily job. But when I realized that current design team
> lacks basic UX skills (while working on color picker), I lost most of my
> motivation and felt it was useless to make proposals.
>
>
>
> And the last emails in this mailing list really broke the last bits of
> motivation :
> - saying officially that design is and will ever be a second class citizen
>

It all depends on the people. If you have the skills to make design a first
class citizen here, go for it. Don't ask for my approval -- you don't need
it.


> - saying officially that TDF will never listen to users
>

That's not exactly true. What was said is that user comments won't be the
primary driving force behind development, to avoid feature creep.


> - saying officially that nothing will change (no roadmap, no mid/long term
> vision, only "bazaar" short term changes) beacuse LO is, as Charles said, a
> libertarian project
>

You can propose a roadmap or a vision. If people like it, they'll follow it.


> - design team has no plans to enhance the design process
>

Come to the IRC chat on Saturday -- we can talk about the design process
then.
However, it seemed to me from your blog posts that you were asking for a
paid group of professional UX designers working outside of the community,
which I don't really think has a chance of happening anytime soon.

>
> So I have nothing more to do for LibreOffice.
> So this is my last message before unsubscribe.
>

I'm sorry you feel that way.

>
> Michel
>

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