What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

Hello all,

Several volunteers have approached board and MC members about one
seemingly secondary issue, which has not been dealt in any way since the
beginning of the LibreOffice project: what structure, and what name,
should we give to the former Native-langage projects that are even to
this day an essential and invaluable part of our community.

A short reminder of what native-language projects are: they're not only
localization projects. They do translation (localization) of
LibreOffice, users support in a specific language, local promotion and
marketing, documentation translation, QA of localized builds, etc.

Because of that, the name is somewhat a  non-trivial decision, and it
also calls for a more formalized structure of these teams.

I thought I would start this discussion as I was the lead of the
"Native-Language Confederation" during the times of the old
OpenOffice.org project. Now I no longer work on this, but at least some
of you know me :-) .

Your ideas are welcome.

best,
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Co-Founder & Director, The Document Foundation,
Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

Il 05/11/2012 12:08, Charles-H. Schulz ha scritto:

> Because of that, the name is somewhat a  non-trivial decision, and it
> also calls for a more formalized structure of these teams.

Following LibreUmbria nice composition between "libre" and the
geographical name, the Italian community has just decided - well, there
is a benevolent dictator here, and only a few people would like to have
a real disscussion with him ;-) - that LibreItalia is a very good name
for the native language community.

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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

Hello Italo,

Le lundi 05 novembre 2012 à 12:55 +0100, Italo Vignoli a écrit :

> Il 05/11/2012 12:08, Charles-H. Schulz ha scritto:
>
> > Because of that, the name is somewhat a  non-trivial decision, and it
> > also calls for a more formalized structure of these teams.
>
> Following LibreUmbria nice composition between "libre" and the
> geographical name, the Italian community has just decided - well, there
> is a benevolent dictator here, and only a few people would like to have
> a real disscussion with him ;-) - that LibreItalia is a very good name
> for the native language community.
>


Very nice and beautiful name!
I was wondering about how we should call the "native-language" projects,
and whether we should formalize them more. ... Do we want to call them
"native-language projects"again?

best,
--
Charles-H. Schulz
Co-Founder & Director, The Document Foundation,
Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
Rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint




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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

Il 05/11/2012 14:16, Charles-H. Schulz ha scritto:

> Very nice and beautiful name!
> I was wondering about how we should call the "native-language" projects,
> and whether we should formalize them more. ... Do we want to call them
> "native-language projects"again?

LibreProject France, LibreProject Italia, LibreProject Germany, etcetera

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Italo Vignoli
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Joan Montané Joan Montané
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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

2012/11/5 Italo Vignoli <[hidden email]>:
>
>
> LibreProject France, LibreProject Italia, LibreProject Germany, etcetera
>

Hi all,

using country names may be is not a good option.

What about languages spoken in many countries but with a single
LibreOffice "native-language" team, as Spanish or English.In the other
hand, there are languages and teams without an reference country, like
Esperanto or Catalan.


Yours,

Joan Montané

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sophi sophi
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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

In reply to this post by italovignoli
On 05/11/2012 14:17, Italo Vignoli wrote:
> Il 05/11/2012 14:16, Charles-H. Schulz ha scritto:
>
>> Very nice and beautiful name!
>> I was wondering about how we should call the "native-language" projects,
>> and whether we should formalize them more. ... Do we want to call them
>> "native-language projects"again?
>
> LibreProject France, LibreProject Italia, LibreProject Germany, etcetera

No, we are speaking about languages, not regions or countries and we are
searching for a name that will cover all of our local projects.

But, Charles, thanks a lot for opening this discussion. Yes we need a
name that represent us and all the work we are doing aside localization.
When I saw the presentation of the Japanese group in Berlin, I thought
that we should really be able to exchange more between us but also
advertize our work.

Kind regards
Sophie
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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

In reply to this post by Joan Montané
Il 05/11/2012 14:23, Joan Montané ha scritto:

> What about languages spoken in many countries but with a single
> LibreOffice "native-language" team, as Spanish or English.In the other
> hand, there are languages and teams without an reference country, like
> Esperanto or Catalan.

You are right, I am biased because my native language is spoken in a
single country, but the concept is the same: LibreProject French or
Français, LibreProjet Castillan or Castellano, and so on.

Of course, LibreProject Catalan or Català, as I am in Barcelona now, and
Català is the language spoken here (and I start to get some words out of
a discussion, but I am still more familiar with Castillan).

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sophi sophi
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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

In reply to this post by Charles-H. Schulz
Hi Charles, all,
On 05/11/2012 14:16, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:

> Hello Italo,
>
> Le lundi 05 novembre 2012 à 12:55 +0100, Italo Vignoli a écrit :
>> Il 05/11/2012 12:08, Charles-H. Schulz ha scritto:
>>
>>> Because of that, the name is somewhat a  non-trivial decision, and it
>>> also calls for a more formalized structure of these teams.
>>
>> Following LibreUmbria nice composition between "libre" and the
>> geographical name, the Italian community has just decided - well, there
>> is a benevolent dictator here, and only a few people would like to have
>> a real disscussion with him ;-) - that LibreItalia is a very good name
>> for the native language community.
>>
>
>
> Very nice and beautiful name!
> I was wondering about how we should call the "native-language" projects,
> and whether we should formalize them more. ... Do we want to call them
> "native-language projects"again?

I'm not against Native-Language Project, even if it's difficult to
translate, I think it illustrates quite well who we are :)

Kind regards
Sophie
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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

In reply to this post by Charles-H. Schulz
Il 05/11/2012 14:16, Charles-H. Schulz ha scritto:

> Very nice and beautiful name!
> I was wondering about how we should call the "native-language" projects,
> and whether we should formalize them more. ... Do we want to call them
> "native-language projects"again?

Simply LibreProjects, we must grow our brand awareness, and we should
use "libre" as much as possible. Native Language Project does not have
any association with TDF or LibreOffice, and might be associated with
anything (and it was associated with OOo, and Andrea Pescetti is trying
to associate it with Apache OO, if you look at one of his presentations
at ApacheCon). I am for changing the name to something different and
more catchy, and associated with LibreOffice.

LibreProjects can be associated with Marketing, Native Languages,
Localization, Documentation (although there is ODFAuthors), and many
other things, and helps with the branding.

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Italo Vignoli
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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

Italo Vignoli wrote (05-11-12 14:45)

> Simply LibreProjects, we must grow our brand awareness, [...]

I like the word, but the current users of LibreProjects might like to be
involved in discussing or see that there is some reasonable distinction
that makes clear that we talk about LibreOffice related projects.

Another idea: LibreOffice NLP Dutch, LibreOffice NLP Italy/Italian (just
what people would think fits best for their situation), ...


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klaus-jürgen weghorn ol klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

Hi Cor,
Am 05.11.2012 15:13, schrieb Cor Nouws:

> Italo Vignoli wrote (05-11-12 14:45)
>
>> Simply LibreProjects, we must grow our brand awareness, [...]
>
> I like the word, but the current users of LibreProjects might like to be
> involved in discussing or see that there is some reasonable distinction
> that makes clear that we talk about LibreOffice related projects.
>
> Another idea: LibreOffice NLP Dutch, LibreOffice NLP Italy/Italian (just
> what people would think fits best for their situation), ...

IMHO won't be that good:
NLP is nero-linguistic programming [1] and we should'nt associate with this.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming

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klaus-jürgen weghorn ol klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

In reply to this post by Charles-H. Schulz
Hi all,
Am 05.11.2012 12:08, schrieb Charles-H. Schulz:
[...]
>
> Your ideas are welcome.

My first idea:
LibOn_[local]

means "LibreOffice national"

corresponding to:
- LibO (LibreOffice)
- LibOx (LibreOffice-Box)

and will nationalized looks like:
LibOn_EN
LibOn_FR
LibOn_NL
LibOn_DE
LibOn_CA-VAL
LibOn_PT-BR



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k-j

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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

Why not LibreON then? We must try to use "libre" as much as we can, in order to grow brand awareness.  

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On Monday 5 November 2012 at 16:28, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol wrote:

> Hi all,
> Am 05.11.2012 12:08, schrieb Charles-H. Schulz:
> [...]
> >  
> > Your ideas are welcome.
>  
> My first idea:
> LibOn_[local]
>  
> means "LibreOffice national"
>  
> corresponding to:
> - LibO (LibreOffice)
> - LibOx (LibreOffice-Box)
>  
> and will nationalized looks like:
> LibOn_EN
> LibOn_FR
> LibOn_NL
> LibOn_DE
> LibOn_CA-VAL
> LibOn_PT-BR
>  
>  
>  
> --  
> Grüße
> k-j
>  
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>  
>  



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klaus-jürgen weghorn ol klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

Hi Italo,
Am 05.11.2012 16:39, schrieb Italo Vignoli:
> Why not LibreON then?

1. Because of:

>> corresponding to:
>> - LibO (LibreOffice)

Must then be LibreO?

>> - LibOx (LibreOffice-Box)

Must then be LibreOx or LibrebOx (loosing most/all)

2. Shout it loud:

- LibreOn
- LibOn

 > We must try to use "libre" as much as we can, in
 > order to grow brand awareness.

Do we? Or can we have "LibO" even for brand awareness?

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding#LibreOffice 1)

The acronym LibO *is* some kind of official now. Otherwise we should
change all file names for downloading.

And so in following this brand awareness...

Of course that point will get a discussion about the branding and not
about the name of NLP. And that should be an other thread.


Grüße
k-j

P.S.:
1) The link to
http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/msg00430.html
is broken.

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Olivier Hallot Olivier Hallot
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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

In reply to this post by italovignoli
Hi
LibreOffice Brasil, period.
Olivier
Em 05/11/2012 09:56, "Italo Vignoli" <[hidden email]> escreveu:

> Il 05/11/2012 12:08, Charles-H. Schulz ha scritto:
>
> > Because of that, the name is somewhat a  non-trivial decision, and it
> > also calls for a more formalized structure of these teams.
>
> Following LibreUmbria nice composition between "libre" and the
> geographical name, the Italian community has just decided - well, there
> is a benevolent dictator here, and only a few people would like to have
> a real disscussion with him ;-) - that LibreItalia is a very good name
> for the native language community.
>
> --
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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

In reply to this post by klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
LibO was created to stop a lengthy discussion on the pronunciation
problem of LibreOffice, which is now over. Unfortunately, although I
like it, it has contributed to the dilution of our brand equity and we
should now try to avoid to use it for new names, while I would not
change old and established ones.

So, I would not change LibOCon and LibOx, and any other name we already
use, but I would try to use Libre as much as we can for new names, in
order to strengthen the "libre" concept and association.

Il 05/11/2012 17:58, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol ha scritto:

> The acronym LibO *is* some kind of official now. Otherwise we should
> change all file names for downloading.

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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

In reply to this post by Olivier Hallot
Il 05/11/2012 19:26, Olivier Hallot ha scritto:

> LibreOffice Brasil, period.

Brazil is a different story, you do not have a past and a present with
OpenOffice.

In Italy, most people use LibreOffice and call it OpenOffice, including
contributors: in this way, brand equity becomes a nightmare.

We should try to create a subliminal association between "libre" and
office, by using libre as much as we can inside the project. Brand is a
real issue, because is the main reason behind Apache OO downloads, and
we must stop it ASAP.

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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

In reply to this post by italovignoli
On 05/11/2012 19:28, Italo Vignoli wrote:
> LibO was created to stop a lengthy discussion on the pronunciation
> problem of LibreOffice, which is now over.

So you'll find the same conversation for a native language community. We
need to be able to pronounce our name ;)
 Unfortunately, although I
> like it, it has contributed to the dilution of our brand equity and we
> should now try to avoid to use it for new names, while I would not
> change old and established ones.

I think that this name is more internal and we should let our
contributors use the name they prefer. It's very important for those
projects to recognize themselves as part of the overall project and if
LibO is the one, let's use it. The brand will benefit of any names where
the community is behind.
>
> So, I would not change LibOCon and LibOx, and any other name we already
> use, but I would try to use Libre as much as we can for new names, in
> order to strengthen the "libre" concept and association.

Libre is very difficult to pronounce for lot of us, so let stick with
something that is easier for our language communities to feel united.

Kind regards
Sophie


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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

Sophie Gautier wrote (05-11-12 19:37)

> Libre is very difficult to pronounce for lot of us, so let stick with
> something that is easier for our language communities to feel united.

Would it be an idea to give the various groups the choice from 3, maybe
4 alternatives, which fits them best?

e.g LibreOffice x / LibreOffice Project x / LibO x ?

I think we won't have difficulty, as Sophie states, to recognise our own
groups/people. And the communication purpose of the name is mostly
local/regional.

Cheers,



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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: What's in a name? former Native-Language projects and structure

Hi,

Quick note. It's not about each project's name but how do we call the
Libreoffice's native-language projects in general.

Best,
Charles.
Le 5 nov. 2012 20:23, "Cor Nouws" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Sophie Gautier wrote (05-11-12 19:37)
>
>  Libre is very difficult to pronounce for lot of us, so let stick with
>> something that is easier for our language communities to feel united.
>>
>
> Would it be an idea to give the various groups the choice from 3, maybe 4
> alternatives, which fits them best?
>
> e.g LibreOffice x / LibreOffice Project x / LibO x ?
>
> I think we won't have difficulty, as Sophie states, to recognise our own
> groups/people. And the communication purpose of the name is mostly
> local/regional.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> --
>  - Cor
>  - http://nl.libreoffice.org
>  - www.librelex.org
>
>
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