Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

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Benjamin Horst Benjamin Horst
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Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

Forwarding from the discuss@ list to the website@ list...

I like MediaWiki and use it extensively, including as an intranet wiki at my current workplace. I recognize it's the default choice because that's what OOo has been using and because it is well and widely-known.

However, it was not designed for the use-case of an intranet or project management wiki. People have written extensions and hacks to make it fit, and they've done a great job, but I feel it still falls a little short. Hence my recommendation that we look closely and compare the features offered by other engines. In my experience, the most complete is Foswiki, but we should be thorough and consider several, including MoinMoin (used for Ubuntu and Apache's wikis), DokuWiki, MediaWiki and others.

Foswiki: http://foswiki.org/
MoinMoin: http://moinmo.in/
DokuWiki: http://www.dokuwiki.org/
MediaWiki: http://www.mediawiki.org/

Wikipedia's list of wiki engines is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wiki_software

More broadly, I think we can better integrate the wiki and the main website than we have done before. Some projects use wikis for their entire websites, though that might not be ideal for LibreOffice. However, we could use the wiki for major sections of the site, and interlink the header back and forth between wiki and primary CMS to make it feel like one coherent site.

I'd like to suggest this mailing list work on the information architecture for the forthcoming project site and wiki, in parallel to our other threads investigating CMS and wiki platforms to build upon.

-Ben

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Christoph Noack <[hidden email]>
> Date: October 6, 2010 4:54:40 PM EDT
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Move and ... Re: [tdf-discuss] [WEBSITE] Improvements for the wiki?
> Reply-To: [hidden email]
>
> Hi Benjamin, all,
>
> thanks for your kind offer! But before I continue - many of you may have
> noticed that we know have some dedicated website mailing list. It is
> meant for coordination of all the web presence stuff like the Website,
> the Wiki, the Planet, ... So I propose to continue our discussion there,
> once all the interested people are subscribed. You
>
> http://www.documentfoundation.org/contact/
>
>
> Am Dienstag, den 05.10.2010, 20:03 -0400 schrieb Benjamin Horst:
>> Clearly, multilingual support will be very important to a successful
>> wiki. Will we have pages generated in one language and then translated
>> to others, or do we expect unique pages to be developed in lots of
>> languages? My guess is that we need to support both--core content will
>> be translated and mirrored in many languages, while certain content
>> (especially local projects, for example) will generate new unique
>> content in their languages.
>>
>> I've investigated briefly and found this possible approach to the
>> problem: http://foswiki.org/Extensions/TopicTranslationsPlugin
>
> I talked with the current "he does a lot of things at the same
> time"-admin and it seems that he proposes MediaWiki. So I asked him for
> resolving the language issue ... and there are two answers at the
> moment:
>
> a) If we are fine with an English only / mixed language wiki, then we
> might get a wiki tomorrow.
>
> b) If we require to handle the language thing in a nice way, then some
> more preparations are required that will need a bit more time.
>
> Concerning the latter, I had a look how Wikipedia handles that ... this
> seems good to me. As far as I understood, there is a need for a "Wiki
> family" that can inter-link several wikis. Each of the wikis is then
> accessible via an own sub-domain ... the search will work fine, and
> resources like images could be shared.
>
> That is what I (a less technical guy) understands ... Is there anybody
> (on this list) who has some experience with that? :-)
>
>> I also strongly support Regina's earlier points, especially regarding
>> the licensing of content community members add. That may be something
>> to add to the footer of each page in the wiki.
>
> Absolutely! We are really aware of that, since the license is important
> if we want to share our work ...
>
> [...]
>
>>> Just a question: Do you expect news to be in the Wiki, or on the rather
>>> website? Or both?
>>
>> I'd like us to consider using the wiki for the website, or at least
>> for a large part of it. (My comment above, "why not use the wiki for
>> the main part of the site..." was meant to convey that idea.)
>
> Ahh, okay. Since we don't have a dedicated website for LibreOffice yet,
> this would be more than fine. Still, I do like the front page of the
> Fedora Wiki very much (hint hint *g*).
>
>> Regardless of whether we decide on using the wiki for the main site, I
>> think a strong case can be made to use it to manage our News page. (I
>> would not recommend duplicating content, News or other, on both the
>> wiki and separately elsewhere on the site. We should ultimately choose
>> just one location, wherever it is.)
>
> Agreed :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>
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Benjamin Horst
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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

Hi Benjamin,

it seems that we have to hurry up. Things didn't stand still (although
some people might think so), and a wiki has been prepared in the
meantime. As I said yesterday, it should be available in no time - if we
"omit" the request for proper handling of languages ;-)

Thus, I'll forward your mail to the admins to make sure that they get
your statements, okay?

Am Donnerstag, den 07.10.2010, 13:35 -0400 schrieb Benjamin Horst:
> Forwarding from the discuss@ list to the website@ list...
>
> I like MediaWiki and use it extensively, including as an intranet wiki
> at my current workplace. I recognize it's the default choice because
> that's what OOo has been using and because it is well and
> widely-known.

Also by admins :-) And by the current user base of the OOoWiki. So if we
change something, then we require really good arguments to convince
them ... it is like a migration of one major commercial office suite to
an open ... aehm ... libre one ;-)

> However, it was not designed for the use-case of an intranet or
> project management wiki. [...]
>
> Foswiki: http://foswiki.org/
> MoinMoin: http://moinmo.in/
> DokuWiki: http://www.dokuwiki.org/
> MediaWiki: http://www.mediawiki.org/
>
> Wikipedia's list of wiki engines is here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wiki_software
[...]

I tried to follow the CMS discussion today, and what me puzzles is, that
we require a wiki very soon and the time for people evaluating another
installation is also very limited, sigh. How to balance "get a good
wiki" and "get a wiki soon"?

Another thing I'd like to consider is, that we have some content that
might be migrated from the OOoWiki ... I wrote many proposals and
requirement specifications I'd like to add to LibO, too. But this is my
problem at the moment :-)

> I'd like to suggest this mailing list work on the information
> architecture for the forthcoming project site and wiki, in parallel to
> our other threads investigating CMS and wiki platforms to build upon.

My proposal: Let's ask the others for some comments ... and maybe our
intermediate but heroic admins like Florian or Guy, or Christian will
join.

Bye,
Christoph

[...]

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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

Hi,

Am 07.10.2010 um 20:54 schrieb Christoph Noack:

> My proposal: Let's ask the others for some comments ... and maybe our
> intermediate but heroic admins like Florian or Guy, or Christian will
> join.

I guess that if we ask five people, we get seven replies which wiki is
the best. :-) Every wiki has its advantages and disadvantages, but for
us, the migration aspect is not unimportant. I'm happy to switch the
wiki, but remember this might take one or two weeks time, and that we
need to have a clear majority vote on this one.

Florian

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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

Hi Flo, hi all!

Am Freitag, den 08.10.2010, 14:19 +0200 schrieb Florian Effenberger:

> Hi,
>
> Am 07.10.2010 um 20:54 schrieb Christoph Noack:
>
> > My proposal: Let's ask the others for some comments ... and maybe our
> > intermediate but heroic admins like Florian or Guy, or Christian will
> > join.
>
> I guess that if we ask five people, we get seven replies which wiki is
> the best. :-) Every wiki has its advantages and disadvantages, but for
> us, the migration aspect is not unimportant. I'm happy to switch the
> wiki, but remember this might take one or two weeks time, and that we
> need to have a clear majority vote on this one.

Thanks for the thoughts ... at the moment, I have the impression that a
wiki that suits our needs with regard to multiple languages is the most
important thing. So if we get five, seven, ... or even nine opinions, we
might go for something quick that is - at least - proven for the use in
such a large environment. And people (e.g. marketing list) are really
demanding a wiki ...

Benjamin, would that be somehow okay? I mean, you invest a lot of effort
to get things right from the start ... on the other hand there is a need
to move on. Grrr. I hate such things :-)

Cheers,
Christoph

 
> Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]>
> Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
> Tel: +49 8341 99660880
> Fax: +49 8341 99660889
> Mobile: +49 151 14424108
> Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff
>
>


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Benjamin Horst Benjamin Horst
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)


On Oct 8, 2010, at 5:19 PM, Christoph Noack wrote:

> Hi Flo, hi all!
>
> Am Freitag, den 08.10.2010, 14:19 +0200 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Am 07.10.2010 um 20:54 schrieb Christoph Noack:
>>
>>> My proposal: Let's ask the others for some comments ... and maybe our
>>> intermediate but heroic admins like Florian or Guy, or Christian will
>>> join.
>>
>> I guess that if we ask five people, we get seven replies which wiki is
>> the best. :-) Every wiki has its advantages and disadvantages, but for
>> us, the migration aspect is not unimportant. I'm happy to switch the
>> wiki, but remember this might take one or two weeks time, and that we
>> need to have a clear majority vote on this one.
>
> Thanks for the thoughts ... at the moment, I have the impression that a
> wiki that suits our needs with regard to multiple languages is the most
> important thing. So if we get five, seven, ... or even nine opinions, we
> might go for something quick that is - at least - proven for the use in
> such a large environment. And people (e.g. marketing list) are really
> demanding a wiki ...
>
> Benjamin, would that be somehow okay? I mean, you invest a lot of effort
> to get things right from the start ... on the other hand there is a need
> to move on. Grrr. I hate such things :-)

I don't want to slow this down if others are ready to proceed. I wish I had the sysadmin skills to demonstrate and rapidly update the wiki engine I've been recommending, but I was able to ask others to install a demo of it on my site. What you'll see there is a stock installation of the latest version; I have not even added any sample content yet: http://twiki.wikipages.com/bin/view/ (Never mind the subdomain, which is from a previous install before they underwent a name change.)

It includes three "webs" which you can see in the bottom of the lefthand column: Main, Sandbox and System. Look at System for the built-in documentation which is very thorough, and use the Sandbox to play around a bit.

-Ben


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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

Hi Ben,

Benjamin Horst wrote on 2010-10-09 13.46:
> I don't want to slow this down if others are ready to proceed. I wish I had the sysadmin skills to demonstrate and rapidly update the wiki engine I've been recommending, but I was able to ask others to install a demo of it on my site. What you'll see there is a stock installation of the latest version; I have not even added any sample content yet:http://twiki.wikipages.com/bin/view/  (Never mind the subdomain, which is from a previous install before they underwent a name change.)
>
> It includes three "webs" which you can see in the bottom of the lefthand column: Main, Sandbox and System. Look at System for the built-in documentation which is very thorough, and use the Sandbox to play around a bit.

thanks! Does it provide multilang support?

Florian

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drewjensen drewjensen
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 17:08 +0200, Florian Effenberger wrote:
> Hi Ben,
>
> Benjamin Horst wrote on 2010-10-09 13.46:
> >
> > It includes three "webs" which you can see in the bottom of the lefthand column: Main, Sandbox and System. Look at System for the built-in documentation which is very thorough, and use the Sandbox to play around a bit.
>
> thanks! Does it provide multilang support?
>
Hello Florian

Will want Ben's input - but after reading along here I've been up
looking through the docs for the Twiki/FosWiki

Seems localization is handled at the web level, not the site level,
enabled at the site level.

So it appears that, for instance, in the example site Ben's group setup
up each of the 3 'webs' could have a different language setting.

But would need confirmation - been looking at example sites with the
wiki engine - haven't found one utilizing this feature yet - it be nice
to see it in action...not that software never runs exactly as defined in
the docs...no, never.

Drew


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drewjensen drewjensen
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 11:45 -0400, Drew Jensen wrote:
> not that software never runs exactly as defined in
> the docs...no, never.

not that software ever runs not exactly as defined in
the docs...no, never.

;-/


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Andreas Mantke Andreas Mantke
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

In reply to this post by Florian Effenberger
Hi Florian, *,

Am Samstag, 9. Oktober 2010, 17:08:23 schrieb Florian Effenberger:

> Hi Ben,
>
> Benjamin Horst wrote on 2010-10-09 13.46:
> > I don't want to slow this down if others are ready to proceed. I wish I
> > had the sysadmin skills to demonstrate and rapidly update the wiki
> > engine I've been recommending, but I was able to ask others to install a
> > demo of it on my site. What you'll see there is a stock installation of
> > the latest version; I have not even added any sample content
> > yet:http://twiki.wikipages.com/bin/view/  (Never mind the subdomain,
> > which is from a previous install before they underwent a name change.)
> >
> > It includes three "webs" which you can see in the bottom of the lefthand
> > column: Main, Sandbox and System. Look at System for the built-in
> > documentation which is very thorough, and use the Sandbox to play around
> > a bit.
>
> thanks! Does it provide multilang support?

sorry that I jump so late in. But in my opinion it is very important that we have
asap a wiki. We should go with the wiki that the most project members are used to. I
think this wiki engine will also make the fewest problems to import content from the
current OOo-Wiki.

If the LO-Wiki is not available by Monday the work inside the documentfoundation / LO
will get not the necessary structure. We need it i.e. to write down tasks, so that
volunteers can catch them.

Regards,
Andreas
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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

Hi Andreas,

Andreas Mantke wrote on 2010-10-09 22.05:

> sorry that I jump so late in. But in my opinion it is very important that we have
> asap a wiki. We should go with the wiki that the most project members are used to. I
> think this wiki engine will also make the fewest problems to import content from the
> current OOo-Wiki.

I agree, and that's why I would like to stick with MediaWiki, especially
as the basic setup is already running.

> If the LO-Wiki is not available by Monday the work inside the documentfoundation / LO
> will get not the necessary structure. We need it i.e. to write down tasks, so that
> volunteers can catch them.

The problem is: My day has only 24 hours. Now that we have the demand of
a separated l10n search and namespace structure, I need to invest more
time, but I definitely cannot do that by Monday.

The current wiki can be opened up in a few seconds, but if we need to
fulfill the raised requirements, Monday is not possible from my side.

Florian

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Andreas Mantke Andreas Mantke
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

Hi Florian,

Am Sonntag, 10. Oktober 2010, 02:02:34 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Hi Andreas,
>
> Andreas Mantke wrote on 2010-10-09 22.05:
(...)
> > If the LO-Wiki is not available by Monday the work inside the
> > documentfoundation / LO will get not the necessary structure. We need it
> > i.e. to write down tasks, so that volunteers can catch them.
>
> The problem is: My day has only 24 hours. Now that we have the demand of
> a separated l10n search and namespace structure, I need to invest more
> time, but I definitely cannot do that by Monday.

in my opinion we should go without that namespace structure, if it is posib
le to work
on that later. It is important to have a wiki asap.

If we evaluate or customize the wiki engine some more days, we'll loose the
 power of
the break-up.

Regards,
Andreas

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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

Hi,

Andreas Mantke wrote on 2010-10-10 11.37:
> in my opinion we should go without that namespace structure, if it is posib
> le to work
> on that later. It is important to have a wiki asap.
>
> If we evaluate or customize the wiki engine some more days, we'll loose the
>   power of
> the break-up.

I'll look into it.

Florian

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bedipp bedipp
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

In reply to this post by Florian Effenberger
Hi Florian, all,

Florian Effenberger schrieb:
> [...]Now that we have the demand of
> a separated l10n search and namespace structure, I need to invest more
> time, but I definitely cannot do that by Monday.
>
> The current wiki can be opened up in a few seconds, but if we need to
> fulfill the raised requirements, Monday is not possible from my side.

Is there a chance to add these requirements later, while the wiki is
already active?

Or does the structure needs to be final before the first page has been
created?

I'm sorry, but I don't know much about wiki setup.

Best regards

Bernhard

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Stefan Weigel Stefan Weigel
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

Hallo Bernhard,

Bernhard Dippold schrieb:

>> The current wiki can be opened up in a few seconds, but if we need to
>> fulfill the raised requirements, Monday is not possible from my side.
>
> Is there a chance to add these requirements later, while the wiki is
> already active?
>
> Or does the structure needs to be final before the first page has been
> created?

I don´t know anything about the technical aspects of this question.
But even if technically possible, I think we shouldn´t launch the
wiki without having the required structure, because people will be
adding content that likely won´t be compatible to the structure and
logics afterwards.

wiki.oo.o has been suffering this and it´s a mess.


Stefan

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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

In reply to this post by bedipp
Hi,

Bernhard Dippold wrote on 2010-10-10 13.35:
> Is there a chance to add these requirements later, while the wiki is
> already active?
>
> Or does the structure needs to be final before the first page has been
> created?
>
> I'm sorry, but I don't know much about wiki setup.

we just agreed on setting up the wiki ASAP, and add the rest later on.

Florian

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Andreas Mantke Andreas Mantke
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

Hi Flo,

Am Sonntag, 10. Oktober 2010, 14:26:16 schrieb Florian Effenberger:

> Hi,
>
> Bernhard Dippold wrote on 2010-10-10 13.35:
> > Is there a chance to add these requirements later, while the wiki is
> > already active?
> >
> > Or does the structure needs to be final before the first page has been
> > created?
> >
> > I'm sorry, but I don't know much about wiki setup.
>
> we just agreed on setting up the wiki ASAP, and add the rest later on.

thanks for your work.

We should decide, if we should move all developer stuff from the freedeskto
p.org-LO-
wiki to our new wiki, so that we have every thing in one place.

Regards,
Andreas

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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

Hi Andreas,

Andreas Mantke wrote on 2010-10-10 15.55:
> thanks for your work.
>
> We should decide, if we should move all developer stuff from the freedeskto
> p.org-LO-
> wiki to our new wiki, so that we have every thing in one place.

at the moment we stick with FreeDesktop.org for development related
stuff, but plan to move that soon. With regards to the wiki, I don't
know... maybe Thorsten or Michael can tell us more about that.

Florian

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Goran Rakic Goran Rakic
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

У нед, 10. 10 2010. у 16:01 +0200, Florian Effenberger пише:
>
> at the moment we stick with FreeDesktop.org for development related
> stuff, but plan to move that soon.

If I understand correctly, TDF wiki should be used for general topics on
The Document Foundation and Freedesktop.org wiki should be used on
topics about LibreOffice development, marketing, localization?

Goran


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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

Hi Goran,

Goran Rakic wrote on 2010-10-10 15.56:
> If I understand correctly, TDF wiki should be used for general topics on
> The Document Foundation and Freedesktop.org wiki should be used on
> topics about LibreOffice development, marketing, localization?

no - the TDF wiki should be used for *everything* regarding TDF and
LibO, except development. For development, I need input from Thorsten
and others if the wiki suits their needs.

Florian

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Benjamin Horst Benjamin Horst
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Re: Wiki Discussion (Reboot)

In reply to this post by drewjensen

On Oct 9, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Drew Jensen wrote:

> Hello Florian
>
> Will want Ben's input - but after reading along here I've been up
> looking through the docs for the Twiki/FosWiki
>
> Seems localization is handled at the web level, not the site level,
> enabled at the site level.
>
> So it appears that, for instance, in the example site Ben's group setup
> up each of the 3 'webs' could have a different language setting.
>
> But would need confirmation - been looking at example sites with the
> wiki engine - haven't found one utilizing this feature yet - it be nice
> to see it in action...not that software never runs exactly as defined in
> the docs...no, never.

This appears to be a moot point now that a MediaWiki has already been set up, but based on the plugin I was looking at to provide deep multilingual support ( http://foswiki.org/Extensions/TopicTranslationsPlugin ), you could also localize per page, called "topic" in Foswiki lingo. Thus, we could set up a complete web for any localization community to work within their own language, and for main web content we could generate a separate page to mirror that content in each language as well.

I've asked a few questions on the Foswiki discussion list and gotten a friendly response in return, with the promise of more followup soon. If you'd like to join that list directly for a few days (which has been pretty low-volume the past few days I've been on it), it would be great: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/foswiki-discuss

-Ben

Benjamin Horst
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www.solidoffice.com


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